Master Magician ValueTech Module?

[jackad]

I just received the latest offering from ITS selling the brand new Master Magician ValueTech module. I understand this was demonstrated at a Las Vegas seminar in October that was attnded by several members of this board.
If you're familiar with this program or have been using it, please share your opinions and comments. The price of the package, including video and audio tapes, etc., is pretty steep at $497.
Thanks.
Jack

[kitts]

ValueTech deals with a concept that has long interested me. You have a horse that you make 4/1 (or you just love the horse) and he is 20/1 on the board. Value! Bet him quick! Sounds good, but there is a balance here. The public is a better handicapper than I and probably better than most. Is the public wrong at making this one 20/1? Can you find overbetting going on for obvious reasons (big Beyer, good last race, class drop, et al)on other horses, usually the top choices? Then the public is making a mistake and you can jump on it. But what if there are not a lot of obvious reasons going on? Then maybe your 20/1 is really 20/1. This whole balance thing could take pages but let us leave it at that. Maybe you are good at predicting how the public will bet. Any experienced handicapper gets a feel for this. Would you like a way to factor in this "balance" thing into an oddsline? Enter ValueTech. Master Magician generates its own oddsline heavily influenced by their ratings and methods. ValueTech takes into consideration typical public reactions and modifies the Master Magician oddsline to reflect this. It is still Master Magician. If you liked Michael Pizzolla's book on the subject and feel comfortable with the PBS/PPF etc, then you have an advantage with ValueTech. If the $500 bill is something you can afford to chalk up to your hobby, go for it. But no software is going to pick winners, that's your job.

[hurrikane]

$497 Ouch!

[jk3521]

I would only pay that much for this package if it included a day with Mr. Pizzola at the track for the price! He is a bright man , but it is easy for him to stay focused. I am not that disciplined.

[LOU M.]

How does this compare with the $400 Netcapper you have been using. Actually how do you like Netcapper.

[Lefty]

Went to ITS site couldn't find anything about the ValuTech module. However the Master Magician is listed at $497
Is the module a free addon or does it cost $497 after purchase of Master Magician which is also $497?

[Tom]

I got a mailing on it last week.
Value and $500 go together like "Hand me the piano." <G>

[cj]

Tom,

I agree...$500 is crazy, but its ONLY $497, surely that $3 counts for something! ;) ;) ;)

CJ

[jk3521]

Yeah, it always gets me where they get these amounts for their software and systems. Ever notice that is $497,$38.50,$47.80, etc.? How do they figure the cost of programming and don't forget the cost of the 1/2 inch floppy disk. That runs into big bucks!

[jk3521]

Sorry, I meant 3 and 1/2 in. floppy disk

[Tom]

Originally posted by cjmilkowski
Tom,

I agree...$500 is crazy, but its ONLY $497, surely that $3 counts for something! ;) ;) ;)

CJ

Oh, well then, hmm where do I order????? <G>

[kitts]

Lou M and all

The Capper works fine for me. I do not use it the way the developer does-I choose my own pacelines and contenders. The Master Magician often sees things differently and sometimes can alert one to a horse that was thrown out.

It is interesting to note how discussions on software often degenerate to discussions of price. If the software helps the handicapper make money it is worth the $200 or $500 or $19.95

[Lefty]

Question is: How much is it? Is it $497+$497 for Valutech or $497 for all? What's the flyer say guys? I didn't get one; I must be off the list.

[hurrikane]

Lefty,
lucky you...off the list.
:D

If Mike wants to shoot me a straight 2.00 ex for 497..I"ll throw in the the 2bucks and buy the software! :D

[jk3521]

hurrikane,

That is one great idea! Ask Mr Pizolla to give us a sure $500.00 payoff, then we will be able to afford his program. Sure, if a system or software will make us all winners the dollar amount wouldn't matter. There are so many people out there who want to sell software/systems that aren"t worth the paper the system is written on or the floppy disk that the program is installed from. Mr Pizolla is a bright man, I believe when he says that you can win with his systems, BUT only if you are like Mr Pizolla, a pure gambler . Most of us are recreational gamblers with none of the skills he has . There are very few like him. I did receive the offer in the mail from ITS, this 497 dollars pays for the tapes, and the add-on software for people who already own the Master Magician.

[LOU M.]

What a novel approach. The software developer runs HIS program through HIS huge database(which he should have in order to have developed the software)finding out if the program can produce any pos. ROI situations and then including them with the software package. If he can't do that than selections or odds lines shouldn't be part of the software and the program sold for what it really is, a glorified DAILY RACING FORM.

[keenang]

I THINK MIKE P. IS A GREAT GUY BUT WHEN DOES IT STOP. I BOUGHT THE BOOK AND THE SOFTWARE 'HANDICAPPING MAGIC' THEN COMES THE HANDICAPPING MAGICAN NOW THE VALUE TECH OR SOMETHING. I GOT THE LETTER AND THREW IT AWAY. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT A GUY WHO CAN WIN UMTEEN THOUSAND ON ONE WEEKEND COULD GIVE US A BREAK.SHADES OF THE OLD SARTIN STUFF.

[Lefty]

Keenang, after Handicapping Magic, Master Magician And THEN ValuTech. So if I'm reading you guys right MM is $497 and then you gotta spend another $497 for ValuTech if you want it.
A friend gave me his Handicapping Magic prg and I can't do much with it tho I did like the book.

[JimG]

Let's face it guys...the software vendors are not making software in order to make us winners....they are creating the software in order to make money...or at least supplement their income. Nothing wrong with that.

We always have the right not to buy....a right I am starting to exercise more and more.

Jim

[ratpack]

I can't imagine that ITS will sell TMM for around $800 with the Value Tech.

I wonder how they will market it, A la Carte

From what I read in the mailer you will have to plug in the Tote odds but the way the odds change last flash not sure how effective it will be.

[MikeDee]

If this guy is such a good handicapper, then why one expensive software program after another? You would think he could come up with just one that works. His whole history has been software, books, and seminars. Sounds like the emperors new clothes to me.

[jk3521]

I am sure that Mr Pizolla is a terrific handicapper and makes a good living at it, BUT you can't put that knowledge together in a book, on tapes or in any software. It is inborn. You either have it or you don't. If I could get my thinking together all the time I wouldn't keep missing those $80 horse like I keep on doing and I would have a seat next to Mr Pizolla at the track.

[Derek2U]

That guy is F-Of-S; enough to rival the largest compost heaps.
And yet what? So many of you tout him, his books, his software,
his tapes, his lectures. Handicapping is basically a learned (not innate) talent with much art & a good mix of "science." Yet when
I see what passes for handicapping I just want to howl. From Where -- and Why -- did such nonsense get into print and minds.
Come to think of it, I know this guy who is writing a handicapping
book and he wants a few chapters written by players. Knowing
him I sure the book will be (a) Short ; (b) To the point; (c) Cool.
But I really think only a VERY FEW books have been on the money.

[JimG]

Originally posted by Derek2U
That guy is F-Of-S; enough to rival the largest compost heaps.
And yet what? So many of you tout him, his books, his software,
his tapes, his lectures. Handicapping is basically a learned (not innate) talent with much art & a good mix of "science." Yet when
I see what passes for handicapping I just want to howl. From Where -- and Why -- did such nonsense get into print and minds.
Come to think of it, I know this guy who is writing a handicapping
book and he wants a few chapters written by players. Knowing
him I sure the book will be (a) Short ; (b) To the point; (c) Cool.
But I really think only a VERY FEW books have been on the money.

Derek...3 questions...

1. Why do you believe Pizzola is F-of-S?
2. What books in your opinion have been "on the money" and why?
3. If the book is "cool", is that good or bad?

Jim

[GR1@HTR]

Might be a better idea for $497 to buy Fierros book for much less and learn how to make an odds line. Cheaper and I bet you can get better results. Computers are great for handicapping, but very poor at creating automated odds lines for the most part...

[Jaguar]

Derek2u,

I have been a Mike Pizzola/Eric Langjahr fan for 15 years, because these men are smart, sharp, and good at picking longshots.

Though I do not own or use MM with VT, their latest program, I can guarantee you that anything by Mike P. will have some super paydays, alot of misses, but in the end will be very profitable.

Simply because their reasoning is sound, and has been since before they published their work on exactas, years ago.

Pizzola/Langjahr do not handicap in a method which is appealing to me, because I want to cash today and I want to know the statistical chance of my horse winning this race.

However, longshot players appreciate the Pizzola/Langjahr philosophy, which is well-proven in selecting overlays. Pizzola/Langjahr players will freely tell you that the method requires a good deal of patience and necessitates iron guts, because they have to be brave enough to pull the trigger on some high odds horses.

In short, I don't agree with Mike Pizzola and Eric Langjahr, but having read their published works and having seen their programs in action, I have to respect them.

Bob Harris, who is part of the P/L inner circle, so to speak, and a veteran handicapper, associates with them for good reasons.

Eric Langjahr and Mike Pizzola are among the elite within the American handicapping community.

All the best,

Jaguar

[anotherdave]

Is there any website with the info on this Valuetech? I checked itsdata.com, but couldn't find anything.

AD

[Derek2U]

Dear Jag (et al) .... I'm def biased against MP & EL ... what a
pair of bookends hey but who am I 2 Think I have a lock on their
veracity (or lack therein). And so, Jag, I defer to your more
intimate knowledge of that pervasive duo. Ok so lets not hear
their names again & that would be VerYfine.

[Lefty]

A friend loaned me the Pizzolla seminar tapes that go with the prgm and I came back to read this thread; JK3521 said he would buy if it included a day with Pizzolla, well the seminar tapes conclude with just that feature: Pizzolla at his computer making, explaining his picks, rushing to the window, betting and collecting some little ones and some big ones.
His partner, Eric, the conservative one goes to the window, makes 2 bets hits one of two and profts a thou. His bets were $400 ea.
These guys are impressive.

[Bob Harris]

Now that all the relatives have gone home, I'm just getting around to viewing the tapes...I think I was on tape 5 when I went to bed last night. For a first attempt at video, I thought they came out surprisingly well...couple of small audio problems but the graphics from the overhead screen show up much better than I thought they would.

For people who own TMM and couldn't make the seminar, I really think you'll get the same experience as those who attended.

[hurrikane]

I don't know. I've read his stuff, seen his software..I"m not the least bit impressed with these people. They may make money but I'm guessing the mojority of thier income comes from software and seminars.
Not sure what you mean about the longshots. In his book I dont' remember one longshot he listed as an example. In fact I was shocked at the poor prices he was getting on these horses.

[Derek2U]

You are sooo very correct; the bulk of his money is from
seminars & software. I'm going to stick my neck out & say
this: a full-time gambler would have no time to spare to teach
others how he wins. Moreover, it sounds totally insane to think
a gambler would reveal his winning strategy.

[kitts]

I am proud to point out that I was the first to respond to this thread at which point it quickly deteriorated to the usual complaints about price and picking on the publishers and developers. The
tapes are certainly good,IMHO, as is the ValueTech concept. The ValueTech output is highly dependent on the software itself. The software is sure not for everybody but I think the "balance" concept that is briefly touched on here but expanded greatly by the seminar is one of the most worthwhile and thought provoking ideas I have seen in some time.

[Bob Harris]

Originally posted by Derek2U
You are sooo very correct; the bulk of his money is from
seminars & software. I'm going to stick my neck out & say
this: a full-time gambler would have no time to spare to teach
others how he wins. Moreover, it sounds totally insane to think
a gambler would reveal his winning strategy.

Neither Michael or Eric claim to be full-time players, Derek. They conduct a racing business...some of their income comes from ITS related ventures and some of it comes via the betting windows.

Very few people (if they want to have a life) make 100% of their living from betting (my definition of "living" is no other income...no spouse, no social security, no pension, etc.) The cash flow isn't dependable from month to month (try putting "professional gambler" on your next home loan application) and you become paranoid about taking time off (What if this is the week all the bombs come in at Santa Anita?).

Do you truly believe that Langjahr, Pizzolla, Schmidt, Schwartz, Meadow, Fierro, Quinn, Brohammer, etc., are all "insane" because they happen to teach their methods? Are they all really losing players pulling one big gigantic scam?

[Lefty]

Bob, if Pizzolla is a scam you don't care cause catching your talk on the tapes you strike me as a winning player. Imagine, someone taking the product of a scam artist and winning with it.
The book was logical and the sotware prob. is great, now it's up to the player to make the correct call.
To paraphrase 'ol Shakespeare: The fault is not in our stars but in ourselves.
Or, the fault is not in our software, but in ourselves.

[Bob Harris]

Originally posted by Lefty
Bob, if Pizzolla is a scam you don't care cause catching your talk on the tapes you strike me as a winning player. Imagine, someone taking the product of a scam artist and winning with it.
The book was logical and the sotware prob. is great, now it's up to the player to make the correct call.
To paraphrase 'ol Shakespeare: The fault is not in our stars but in ourselves.
Or, the fault is not in our software, but in ourselves.

Lefty,

I honestly don't care if people like Michael...I really don't. He's a big boy...if you put yourself out into the public you're going to have critics. Some think he's got an over-sized ego, others think the PBS and PPF ratings aren't sophisticated enough, yada, yada, yada.

I know 3 things about him for sure:

1) He makes more money thru the windows than anyone I personally have met. He's pretty much relegated himself to the pm tracks these days so he can play as much golf as possible but there isn't a racebook manager in Vegas who wouldn't give a vital organ to have his play thru their windows.

2) He uses exactly the same products available to everyone else to make this money...no special programs with different formulas.

3) He spent countless days with me in the early '90s (weeks actually) where, at no expense to myself, he worked one on one with me...handicapping 10 hours a day and catching a meal when we could. I followed his handicapping, tracked his bets and saw all the signers...high 4 figure weekends were not uncommon. Contrary to the belief of many, he truly enjoys seeing others succeed. I will be forever grateful for the time he spent working with me.

I can deal with the "This program costs too much" rhetoric...I believe in a free marketplace...if the program really does cost too much, he won't sell any and have to reduce the price if that's all he's interested in doing. He and Eric spend quite a bit of time trying out new ideas and concepts and I don't begrudge them at all for trying to recoup some of their investment...even if it's just their time.

Bob

[cato]

I'm not going to get into defending anyone either, but I do want to respond (again) to the people who suggest that someone is crazy or disengenuous for teaching and sharing information.

Okay, boys and girls. The first concept is that our entire society is built on learning, teaching and sharing information. That's how civilization works. How thoughts and ideas are handed down from generation to generation.

And there are many people who genuinely want to help, to teach and to share knowledge with others. Maybe even get into a meaningful dialouge--my God--maybe even an intellectual give and take--on handicapping--that covers fully and fairly one's philosophy and methodology instead of putting out cryptic, cynical posts that cite to secret formulaes and adjustment procedure. Generally in a free society, full and fair discussion and sharing of ideas is a good thing.

And finally, I've taught a number of seminars and classes and I find that I almost always learn as much or more than the students (opening myself up for a low blow here), because teaching forces one to go deeper and deeper and fully understand and appreciate the subject. So, my guess is that anyone who puts on a truly thoughtful seminar and who has prepared in a meaningful way has gained as much or more than the students.

While there are a number of charlatans out there who say "Don't question, follow me, I have the Grail!" the ethical writers and speakers out there like Brohamer, Schmidt, Quinn, Pizzolla, Langjahr. Mitchell, et al. have a different approach. I have heard them say (in essence) "I have a methodology that takes quite a bit of work and time. It works for me and here is everything I know about it. Don't belieive me...test it...See if it works for you."

And I think that's a fair approach.

Okay, off of my soap box, cato

[Dick Schmidt]

Derek,

I get so tired of people asking why anyone would ever share a winning method or procedure. There are any number of answers, some of them financial, but the reality is that they want some company and maybe recognition.

Say you're a winning player with a winning method (I know it's a stretch, but try). Not a "black box" but a method that consistently beats the races. Maybe you do it by hand or maybe you use a computer, doesn't matter. Now, you can sit, all alone in your room and play the horses all day, never speaking to another soul, never revealing to others what you do. You can't tell anyone, because the way it works, if you tell just one person, he will tell one and then another and soon the whole world knows. The method will eventually make its way into someone else's book and you'll lose all around. So you have no one to talk to, no one to discuss the ups and downs of your style of play, no one to help you or suggest fresh ideas. You are completely alone.

Or you can share your ideas and procedures with your fellow man, open up to the world and enjoy life a bit. True, your fellow man may hurt your prices some, but unless your method is so good that everyone wants in (ask Andy Beyer about that) then it will soon find an equilibrium and you can be a leading part in a community of handicappers.

Also, as Cato (the Elder?) said, our knowledge is all based on what came before. If we don't add our mite to the total knowledge of mankind, then it is as if we hadn't lived at all. Two very short stories to illustrate this point:

In Italy in the 1700's, there was a family of glassblowers who discovered how to make the most beautiful flowers and insects out of glass. They kept their secret to the grave, and as time went by and more and more of their work was broken, they were forgotten. Only 5 or 6 of their pieces still exist, and they are not their best work. No one remembers them today. (did I ever mention that I took a handicapping class from Mark Cramer to fill the time between when I got off work and my glass blowing class?) Can anyone name a handicapper from the 1920's who didn't write a book?

Also in the 1700's, a Chinese master of martial arts lay dying. He was in his 80's and was surrounded by his many children and decedents. As he lay dying, he wept, thinking of all the secrets he had kept to himself as he was teaching, knowing that now they would all be lost and his legacy diminished.

So Derek, that is why I write, and share and teach. Because I don't want to sit all alone in my room, rubbing my hands together and cackling over all the money I'm making. I want to be part of the world. I want to slap high-fives over our wins, and groan over our tough beats. I want to be part of a community.

Dick

[Hosshead]

Dick, It's been many years, but I had the seat next to you during those weeks in Mark Cramers class at LACC. Glad to see you made it as a pro-handicapper. I remember a group of us with Mark, James Quinn, Dick Mitchell,and others, going over to the Hollywood Denny's Restaurant after class, ordering coffee, and talking about horses into the night! A long time ago, in a galaxy far away...

[Derek2U]

Cato, it's refreshing to read honest, easy-going posts like
yours. So many posts, from those who try so hard to impress,
sound hollow, largely made-up stories of making money betting
horses, yet NEVER (hardly-ever) give this board even a single
tip or pick. hehe .... But I just want to add this: maybe, because
I work at a greedy firm, I don't think your lofty ideas are as
common as you think, especially where making money is the
goal. Example: my employer, about 5 years ago, formed a
economic-math division to work out all the kinks in neural networking and some prediction method whose name I can't
recall. Now, mind you, I'm talking about 75 Ph.Ds devoting all their time to these pursuits. One estimate is that "we" made about $500 million profit so far from using this research. Hardly anyone has full access to their findings cause they are under "lock & key". I'll give you odds of 1000:1 that "we" would
never publish or confirm or share any of this privately or
publicly. And so it goes .... there is a huge amount of dollars
to be made by those holding a "provable" predictive edge.

[GR1@HTR]

This is how those boys make their living...I must say Pizzola created a master plan...Thinking 2 steps ahead

First: Write a detailed book, outlining a software program, collect $.
2nd: Create a software program, collect $$
3rd: Create an update, collect $$$
4th: Have a world tour showing you how to use the program, collect $$$$
5th: Create video for those who could not attend the world tour concert, collect $$$$$
6th: Spend $$$$$$$

A MASTER PLAN...Not Master Magician...

Personally, I find his prices and hype marketing literature somewhat offensive but I guess it works for him. You go Michael P.

[GR1@HTR]

Not saying this about M Pizzola...

But just cause someone has excellent presentation skills doesn't make them good in other areas...
For example, the guy I work for here...He has some of the best public speaking skills I have ever witnessed.

He was president of toastmasters, had a TV segment on one of the news channels here on jobs and careers, been on good morning america, has an AM talk radio show, created videos, does public speaking all over the place...Now he is also the biggest bullchitter and crook I have ever seen. BAR NONE!!! He uses his strengths to convice and bully others like no other...

[tcat]

Hey guys, I need to jump in here.
I teach handicapping at U. of Ky (many years). I get paid. I teach how-to...never give winners.
I really do play the ponies, regularly. I win some, lose some. My class is called "hobby handicapping". I try to be realistic about handicapping.
I understand that in spite of all the scientific handicapping software available, horses don't always cooperate.

Good luck to everyone.

[Lefty]

Derek, your guys who made the 500 million prob. have developed something akin to "black box" for stocks. These software prgms are tools that crunch nos, nothing more.
Handicapping Magic, the book outlines the method. You don't need the software unless you want to save a chunck of time. So the prgm is a tool, nothing more.
Cato and Dick were right, imagine if noone ever shared.
There would be no heart transplants, no computers, not much at all.
If noone ever shared a software prgm I'd have none as I'm not a prgmer and that would be AWFUL.

[Lefty]

GR1, as far as these guys selling these books software pgms and everything; hey, this is america, home of capitalists and the most productive and free land on the planet. Thank God.

[GR1@HTR]

Yeah, i agree Lefty...That was my point about pizzola...He laid out a good marketing strategy, followed through and i assume he is being rewarded for his master plan.

[anotherdave]

Originally posted by Dick Schmidt
[B Because I don't want to sit all alone in my room, rubbing my hands together and cackling over all the money I'm making. Dick [/B]

I do.

AD

[Derek2U]

Yeah GR1 ... so many people don't follow through with ideas
I suppose its a tribute to Mr. Pizzola that he's a doer.

[Dick Schmidt]

Hoss,

Glad to hear from you, though I have only very vague recollections of that class. I remember you guys going out to dinner and wishing I could join you, but I had to get to my glassblowing class and spend some time setting myself on fire. I owe the class a lot though. For some reason, Mark decided I was a serious student of the game (I really wasn't) and invited me to participate in a handicapping group with him and Dick Mitchell. I helped Dick write a computer program that did quite well if you could take the time to enter about 90 pieces of information on each horse. Mitchell introduced me to Howard Sartin, who introduced me to Tom Brohamer, and soon enough I was a serious student of the game. Funny old world.

Dick

P.S. I gave up glassblowing when I burned myself, flinched and passed a finger through the flame of an 2000 degree torch. That hurt a lot. I did, however, recreate a 19th century technique for making glass roses that was considered "lost" for over 150 years. Funny old world indeed.

[cato]

Recreating a lost technique that involves frying one's finger at 2000 degrees seems like a bad idea...

I think there's a reason that technique was lost :)

Cato

[Dick Schmidt]

Cato,

The roses were just before the finger. For a while, I was ever so popular with all the ladies I knew, giving them a really nice glass rose. Then came the finger, black and smoking, and I decided that I just didn't need the pain and eye strain of open flame work. I only set myself on fire once, but I burned myself almost every time I worked. You really can't tell the difference between cold glass and very hot glass just by looking. I did learn how to treat minor burns quite well.

Anyway, I left glass work behind me and carried on with handicapping. We'll see how much longer I put up with that.

Dick

[Tom]

Welcome to the board.
Here's a tip for everyone-this guy is a winner, if he posts, pay attention. A real class act who has good ideas.

"Bulldog"

[JimG]

Originally posted by Tom
Welcome to the board.
Here's a tip for everyone-this guy is a winner, if he posts, pay attention. A real class act who has good ideas.

"Bulldog"

It just ain't natural for cats and dogs to get along:D

Tomcat...welcome to the board. Bulldog is right...and by the way his book on betting exotics is excellent.

Jim

[Lefty]

Cato, the glassblowing the rose technique prob. was lost cause someone guarded the secret and didn't teach it. Maybe an ancestor of some of the guys on this board who just can't blve someone would sell a software prgm that enables one to win.

[midnight]

I guess that the programs work for Magic Mike. I don't know of anybody else in real life who ever made money with them. To somebody else his program might be the best thing since the wheel. To me he's just a man who sells expensive software, frequent upgrades, and seminars.