Making a living?

[joeprunes]

Just wondering how many of you guys make a living off of horses , and not to be nosey to what degree. You could make a living with 20k ayear 10k or 5ok its the success that I`m wondering about..prunes

[Thomason]

joeprunes,

I have watched your post for several weeks, wondering who might respond and how. Frankly, I'm not surprised that it's been out there for a month and no one has responded, although many have read it.

I am not a winning player, but I have reached a level where I routinely cover the take. Consequently, I'm only out my expenses, which I chalk up to entertainment. Obviously, I have a day job, as they say.

I know three people who consistently make (or made, in one case) money at the track. Don wears the covers off of Charts Weekly looking for key races. As a mutual friend said, Don moves a lot of earth to uncover a few nuggets. He works very long hours and might only make a bet or two or three each day. With Don, it's a job and he has a hell of a work ethic. He also drives a new Mercedes, for what that's worth.

Randy was a pace handicapper and supported his family for 5 or so years at the track. He worked 18-hour days on a regular basis. Eventually, he gave it up and found another line of work. At the end, his nerves were shot and he couldn't handle the pressure anymore. Now, he plays for fun, once or twice a month. He told me about a particular race where he bet the rent, then went into the men's room and repeatedly flushed the toilet so he couldn't hear the call. That's when he realized he was toast.

Lee is third winning player I know. He is a serious recreational player. He has been in the black for 5 consecutive years and only plays on the weekends. I know he could make a living doing it, but that's not what he wants. I don't know how to describe his style of play. He's something of a contrarian and can deduce so much from so little. He has long losing streaks but when he hits, it's large. He is also an artist when it comes to structuring an exotic wager. I am not sure that a person could learn what Lee has. I think it's God given.

Dr. Sartin wrote in "Pace Makes the Race" that only 2% of all players make money handicapping. I believe that and I believe that those 2% have to work hard, very hard. I know that making money at the track is the hardest thing that I have ever tried to do.

[Tom]

1. No-I don't make a living of the horses. I make a profit, but that is different.
2. To make a living, you have to have a steady income-you can't pay you rent every other month.
3. You have to make enough to cover you benefits-health insurance, etc. If you have job earning $30,000 a year now, you'll need to make more than that at the track.
4. I wouldn't want to make my living at the track. Then it is a job. Now, I enjoy it (most of the time<G>).

[joeprunes]

Thanks for answering my post. I wondered why nobody answered my post I didnt think I was out of line in asking I didn`t want to know how much. I made aliving for a while 25 yrs ago when it was a lot easier, and it was no matter what any body thinks. Yes your right, it takes a lot of energy and time .I use to pick up th form at 10 oclock at night when the truck would come into New Haven flag the truck down and he would sell me complimentary papers for $1. Handicap till 2 go to work at 7 and couldnt wait for the paper at 10,it drained me but it paid off. As I got older I slowed down,retired now I got to watch my dollars so I`m not as daring,as I use to be Handicapping is the second best challange next to Golf,thanks for listening...joep

[Zaf]

That is a very tough thing to do. As you stated joeprunes if possible it would require an immense amount of work. You would have to treat the Sport of Kings as if it was a business. You may lose the enjoyment factor in this way.

I love the game, its my hobby, for the past couple of months I have been beating the take. For now thats good enough for me.

The key is to enjoy the sport of kings.

ZAFONIC

[smf]

JoeP,

There are good reasons why no one answered your query. Every few months or so, someone will ride in here and ask the same question you did. The ensuing posts were nothing but "prove it, i don't believe you, etc, etc" from new posters, and this month has seen the board collect some new names/ handles.

If you look at the past postings (search) in the General Handicapping section you'll find there are at least 2 here that handicap for a living. One lives in Florida, one in Texas. Check out the posts and you'll kinda realize why you didn't get a response---it gets old.

[Thomason]

smf,

Thank you. I followed your suggestion and found an outstanding thread with Dick Schmidt and Dave Schwarz.

[Amazin]

There was a post a few months ago when Derek2u challenged anyone to prove they made consistent profit to earn a living.He was challenged by Dick Schmidt who said he had recently started to do this.In turn Dick was challenged by Alythief(I think that's his name)to prove it.. I believe Alythief was challenged by someone else who proclaimed he made a living from the track and even challenged Alythief $5000 to prove it.Seems Alythief backed off at that point and I haven't seen him post since.Alythief's post were not very well taken but I liked the controversy he stirred up. Was one of the most entertaining and memorable threads.You can probably do a search for this thread or ask Derek2u what the name of it was.But in answer to your question Dick Schmidt does claim to make his living at the track.

[Rick]

Whenever this subject comes up we always run into the problem of definitions. What is a professional horse player? Does that have to be the only income he has? What kind of ROI does he need to have? What level of income would be considered professional? Over what period of time does one have to win in order to be considered successful? There are an endless number of questions and everyone seems to have a different opinion about them.

There are players with a relatively low ROI and very large bankrolls that make a large number of bets per year that have very large incomes from horse racing. There are also players with a large ROI who either make smaller bets or make fewer bets per year and make less than what would be considered a living wage. Both types are winning players. The truth is that the sky's the limit since there are enough betting outlets these days to handle whatever levels you want to bet at. So, IF you're a winning player it depends mostly on how big your bankroll is and how much risk you're willing to take. It wouldn't be wise to try to make a living at it if you must earn a profit every month though. You've got to have some backup money to live on in order to smooth out the rough ride.

[andicap]

Terrific reply, Rick.

I'm a writer who handicaps for fun on the weekends and during the week when there's time. My fantasy -- we all have to dream don't we -- is to couple my writing ability with the flexibility of playing the races. That is, use my writing skills to free-lance and make money that way -- it takes the pressure if there's money coming in -- and handicap to supplement that income so I don't have to work full-time writing. I have also written about racing in the past and while that was enjoyable (it was on a free-lance basis for the Blood-Horse, but it wasn't writing about handicapping), the pay was terrible and not worth my time once I had a family.

I'm not close to that dream yet, and I may never attain it, but if we don't have a dream, we have nothing.

(My other dream, decent house, family, etc. has been attained. one down one to go!):)

[Thomason]

Rick,

I logged onto www.absurd.org. I think I know what you were doing in the 60's.

[so.cal.fan]

Having been at the track for over 35 years, I have noticed a few things.
Men can do this (make a living betting), but they have to be a "rare sort", most men fail because they get too competitive.
I have seen it happen time and time again. They get into a "race" with their peers at the track...........knocks them out of the game everytime. Or, they become "loners" and get too stressed out
doing their own thing, don't take advantage of help from others in the form of information they may miss.
I have never known any women who make their living betting.
That is not to say, there are none. I just have never known or even heard of any.
I believe the reason is that women are just not progammed for this. They are not competitive enough, and the ones that are, go into other business that is more profitable.
I am a good example. I have a lot of experience and knowledge, but I get really scared to bet anything over $100 to win.
I start doubting myself.........refuse to make bets......pass winners....you get the picture........
I am lucky to get to go to the track often. My husband works there and my son is in the business as well. I get passes and many comps, so it is reasonable for me to be there........I live very comfortable........my husband supplies my betting bankroll.....you would think I could do really great......I make a profit......but even my best year would be about the income of a migrant fruit picker.
I have a few male friends who are really big winners. One pal of mine has made 6 figure profits in one year, but has another source of income to back him up. He also never gets competitive with any of his friends, has a photographic memory, and guts to bet big money.

[GR1@HTR]

As far as I have known SMF he has been making a living from betting on the horses (3 yrs now? or longer). He left his job at a defense contractor (as a cart pusher, just kidding some kinda mgmt gig I think) to do this. He works many hours per week, more than us working folks but at least he is doing something that most of us enjoy. Also he is very disciplined and has a huge collection of binders full of records, PP's, graphs and chit. He can go to the track or racebook and sit there for 8 hours making only 1 bet or not making one at all. One tuff cookie...

[Rick]

Thomason,

Actually you might be surprised to know that I was very conservative in the 60's and spent the latter half of them serving in the Air Force. I was largely unaware at the time of the crazy things going on, but did manage to have a good time in more conventional ways.

I actually got more liberal as I got older and gradually discovered that what most people think they know has very little basis in fact. Most things that people argue about have good points and bad points on both sides. When somebody thinks they're 100% right on one side I usually take the opposite side since I think they're ignoring some of the important facts. That doesn't mean I'm indecisive though, just more likely to understand both sides of an issue and likely to ridicule anything I think is intolerant.

[so.cal.fan]

I am lucky enough to know smf, and he is a professional and a damn good one.
He is very good at looking at horses and handicapping them.
I respect his opinion.
The good thing about the top notch horseplayers on board here, is they can share some opinions with other good handicappers, and if they are smart enough not to get into some "ego p*****g match with other guys, they can pick up some useful information.
By the way:
Gr.1, I don't know you, but I understand you don't do so badly yourself! ;)

[Rick]

socal,

Actually, I think it's a lot better to have some backup source of income so you don't have to put all of your eggs in one basket. I think it's easier to make good decisions during bad times if your survival doesn't depend on it. I applaud those who have the courage to do so, but I'd rather consider my horse racing income to be extra income available for good times, what I like to call "party money". That doesn't mean I can't make what others would consider a living wage though. I just don't need to, and I'm not willing to bet every cent I have trying to maximize my income. So, I don't know what people would call me, semi-pro maybe?

At my age (55), I consider time to be more valuable than money and I wouldn't want horse racing to become like any of the many jobs I had involving really long hours and a 100% focus. I just refuse to work too hard at anything now.

[so.cal.fan]

Exactly right, Rick!
Suze Orman, a financial advisor on CNBC says:
People, first
Money, second
Things, third

It is interesting to note that most folks in our age brackett, are not willing to put all the time and stress into full time racing.
The men I know who work full time or more at this game, are much younger than we are.......and are in their "career stages",
they would be successful no matter what business they chose.
I like your term "party money", I am going to "pirate" that!
When I get a nice hit at the track, I always treat my husband and friends to a nice evening out.
I am looking forward to winning some "party money" at the upcoming Santa Anita meet......I'd sure like to go to Lone Star this spring, or maybe even Reno!

[Rick]

socal,

Come on up to Reno any time. There are several of us here who could show you around. And if you do come, I recommend that you take the coast route up through Monterey to San Francisco, then over here. Lots to do along the way and beautiful scenery. If you have anything with LA sports team logos on it though, leave it at home. They're not too popular up North, especially this year.

Good quotation you mentioned. I like to think that when you're older your expected remaining lifetime is less so the amount you require per hour to waste your time should go up enough to account for it. I suppose, if you're on your death bed, the appropriate hourly wage would be just about infinite.

[so.cal.fan]

Thanks, Rick
I forgot about how bad of sports the No. Cal. folks are! LOL

[Rick]

socal,

And it's not just North vs South. In 1989 when they had the Bay area World Series, I made the mistake of going to the area around Bay Meadows (close to San Francisco on the peninsula) wearing an Oakland A's shirt. I got more than my share of negative feedback about my choice of teams.

And some of those Raiders fans, even the women, are downright scary.

[Doug]

Rick wrote,

And some of those Raiders fans, even the women, are downright scary.

Those are some baddddd fans. It is scary and pity the poor soul who wears an opposing fans gear to the Raider home games. Especially if the other team beats the Raiders.

Doug

[karlskorner]

The one thing I have seen over and over again after 20+ years of daily attendance at the track is that people just don't know when to quit. If you are winning or met your goal for the day, go home.
There is no such thing as a lucky streak, or that you are on a roll, if you are ahead a comfortable amount, go home.

On my way to the Paddock after the 5th race today, I met a friend who told me he had just hit the Tri. Go home Gary I said.
On my way home through the paddock before the 9th race, I stopped him and asked how it was going ? He gave it all back.
Up $600.00 and he gave it all back. Schmuck.

I have seen them come and I have seen them go, they have a system, method or program which can't loose ( Hey, I just won the last race ) if they don't win the next race, they will win the one after that, by the last race of the day they are playing childern's birth dates.

Karl

[Lencal555]

Make a living out of the nag's ??? To me it is the greatest game in the world....I do it for fun, and what I lose every year is still less than I would pay to see some over paid clown swing a baseball bat....in short I am paying for my entertainment. The only person I ever saw that could make a living in this game was my uncle Marty, who retired and lived on Long Island...very close to both Belmont & Aqueduct. He went to the track for only the last race, and all he carried was a 100 dollar bill and a few extra bucks. His theory was if he won (and all he did was make place bets) the track couldn't get their money back (that day)...I don't know how much money he really made, but he did one time show me a shoe box he kept under his bed, and you had to stand on the top to close it. Did he really make a living, probably not , but is was a great addition to his SS check.

[Rick]

Karl,

I met someone years ago in Reno who had just won a $5000 jackpot on the slots. He said he was really happy because now he had enough money to try for "the big one". I told him, that probably was "the big one" but he wouldn't listen. Although I don't know the end of that story since I never saw the guy again, I can guess how it came out.

[karlskorner]

The week of 12/7 we were are on a yearly cruise to the Islands (thanks to my "key horses"), the 2nd night out my wife is up $1800, on the slots, I told her RUN, by the time we got back Sat. she was out $400.00. The casinos love people like her, they know that they are going to get it back, just takes time.

As I said above, people just don't know when to quit.

[Rick]

Karl,

Since people usually like to keep gambling after they've won, what I advise is that they put away some part of it first. My preference is to squirrel away 2/3rds of the big win and continue with the 1/3.

[Tee]

When I go to the otb I have X amount of dollars in my pocket.

I have learned over the years to never cash my winning tickets.

The "good" days the tix in my pocket add up to much more than what I started with - the ok days, I am around the even mark & yes of course there are days when I don't quite make it back to the days initial bankroll.

I'm not going to give back what I won & I'm not going to lose anymore than what I came with.

[Tom]

You might as well swing for the fences in the short run.
In the long run, we all die. It's a lock.

[Rick]

teeitup,

Excellent idea and it's easy to implement.

Another thing I've done when gambling (as opposed to investing). Pick an uncommon event as the trigger for you to quit. For example, if I'm playing video poker I'll stop when I get four of a kind or better.

[Tee]

Originally posted by Rick
teeitup,

Excellent idea and it's easy to implement.

Another thing I've done when gambling (as opposed to investing). Pick an uncommon event as the trigger for you to quit. For example, if I'm playing video poker I'll stop when I get four of a kind or better.

Rick, I took some thumpin & the windows to learn my lesson, but I tell ya - it didn't take long to learn!!