Is TrackNet good for racing?

[NoCal Boy]

Here we are 5 days before Churchill's meet starts and less than two weeks before the Derby, and TrackNet has done little to my knowledge to further this openness and broad distribution they so publicly proclaim. They signed up Americatab, but then AmericaTab quickly pulled the rug under its customers by removing all TVG exclusive content. This means no Belmont, Saratoga, Hollywood Park, Del Mar, Calder, Arlington, Meadowlands and Monmouth, among a few others. Does anyone truly believe ATab did this in a vacuum? The same ATab that takes virtually any signal prior to this agreement with TrackNet.

Where are TrackNet's agreements with Youbet and others? Youbet is the number 1 ADW in the country with the broadest distribution. Could Youbet be refusing to drop TVG exclusive tracks? TrackNet can not legally require a company to break off ties with another, but doesn't it seem strange that ATab drops TVG exclusives as soon as they sign up with TrackNet, yet the much larger Youbet, with its large IRG rebate subsidiary, still has no agreement?

Maybe all will become clear as the week goes by. I still do not understand why ATab had to drop TVG exclusives now. They hurt their customers and the exclusive tracks and horsemen at the expense of sticking it to TVG. Strange way of doingbusiness. TVG exclusivity is on its last legs as we know it. Just this weekend it appears TVG and Youbet agreed to a deal that gives the NJ signals for less than the customary rate TVG charges Youbet. Or so it appears.

Come up with a fair price for the signals that works for all involved and gives all involved an incentive to push handles.

Is that so hard to understand?

What an industry.

[Spendabuck85]

Youbet.com, Inc. (NASDAQ:UBET - News) said today that unless TrackNet Media drops its requirement that Youbet forego other premier races to carry the 2007 Kentucky Derby and other TrackNet controlled content, customers of the industry's largest ADW will not be able to use its website or phone facilities to wager on the first leg of this year's Triple Crown. TrackNet Media is a joint venture of Churchill Downs, Inc. and Magna Entertainment Corp.

"Instead of the broader, more inclusive distribution formula the industry has been promised, TrackNet presented us with an unreasonable either-or scenario," said Youbet CEO Charles F. Champion.

"To carry this year's Kentucky Derby and its other content, TrackNet wants us to forego races from, among others, Aqueduct, Belmont, Saratoga, Del Mar, Keeneland, Oak Tree at Santa Anita, Saratoga Harness, Turfway Park, Turf Paradise, and Los Alamitos.

"It ought to be obvious to everyone with a major investment in horse racing that we should not have to choose one content group over another when we are prepared to pay fair prices for both," said Champion. "Under these circumstances, we think the industry needs to assess the ramifications of the two most dominant content providers in our business coming together to dictate content alignment and economics by forcing choices on us and others that are sure to limit competition, thwart innovation, frustrate customers and stifle growth."

[Grits]

Churchill Downs has lost any and all integrity. Not that it has had a great deal to begin with in recent years. Yum Brands, personifies that note.

They are gouging and shutting out wagering on other tracks in the sole attempt to demand AWD sites comply with them and to make available their one day a year event that puts them in the black.

Frank Stronach has always been about me-mine, which translates to either-or. He's the worst thing that has ever come to the sport of horseracing.

As the saying goes "you lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas." Churchill is covered with them.

They've become Stronach. And that's a shame for us all.

[camzrazr]

Real quick: don't want my anti-TVG comments elsewhere to be construed as pro-MEC or pro-CDSN. From disappointing contacts as a mid-level player with each and every one, can't find a horse in that race....

[trigger]

In the past, Youbet has railed against exclusivity. However, Youbet folded like a bankrupt carnival when it was asked to take a stand against TVG and its exclusivity for the ultimate good of the racing industry and the racing fans. Instead, Youbet has been recently making new deals with TVG on exclusive tracks that Youbet was previously boycotting (guess they didn't give a damn about the horsemen when in boycotting mode). You can't have it both ways.

One good thing is that the deals to get or keep ADW bettors should be extraordinary as this situation plays out over the next year or two.

[samyn on the green]

Looks like Tracknet is battling TVG exclusive contracts with their own exclusive contracts. Strongarming the ADW's with the derby looming while showing a facade of standing on high moral ground to the public. The entire situation stinks. If customers can not bet Hollywood/Belmont/Saratoga/Delmar does track net really think they are going to force players to handicap their lame offerings of CHDN/ELLIS/PORTLAND? Lets just hope that these guys do not get their hands on NY and run the game into the ground with a monopoly.

[Indulto]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=38575 (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=38575)
Youbet at Impasse With TrackNet Media; Could Jeopardize Derby Wagering By Ron Mitchell and Leslie Deckard

… According to Youbet.com chairman Charles Champion, TrackNet Media is requiring Youbet to drop other tracks and races if it wanted to have access to the Derby and other TrackNet-controlled content.

… “We won't risk key business relationships with tracks, horsemen, and customers or share holder value for a deal that strips us of this popular and productive content just to carry one race.

… Champion said that on Derby Day in 2006, Youbet handled $1.8 million on the Derby and $3.7 million was wagered on total Churchill card. Youbet’s total handle for the day was $5.5 million.

… Youbet’s announcement comes less than a week after AmericaTAB, another interactive wagering entity, agreed to TrackNet’s terms in order to take the Derby wagers.

In agreeing to the TrackNet exclusivity contract, the Ohio-based account wagering provider decided not to renew its contract for access to exclusive content available through TVG.While Youbet customers hold their un-rebated breath to see if they can bet on the Derby, what about the on-shore rebate shops like Premier Turf Club for whom I wait with baited breath to bet from California?

What’s new, PTC? Any headway or even communication with TrackNet?

[Premier Turf Club]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=38575 (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=38575)
[/color]While Youbet customers hold their un-rebated breath to see if they can bet on the Derby, what about the on-shore rebate shops like Premier Turf Club for whom I wait with baited breath to bet from California?

What’s new, PTC? Any headway or even communication with TrackNet?

Nope.

[ponypro]

I was afraid of this. Stronach stinks from a mile away and now Churchill will jeopardize all their credibility with a partnership with this clown. THis is really bad for racing but what else is new. "Organized Racing" is the clusterf**k of all time with greedy people a plenty. Id say TVG is toast, who knows the effect on youbet. I tried to email Churchill but the email is disconnected
Lets get a paceadvantage petion drive and let them know we will vote with our wallets

[Indulto]

Nope.PTC,
Who might they want YOU to throw onto the "[train] tracks?" ;)

What was that quote of Neuman's again? Oh yeah, "To make customers buy more, you have to make yourself easy to buy from."

I guess he decided "Bye, bye to" made more cent$ than "buy more" or "buy from." :D

[Indulto]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/84274.html (http://www.drf.com/news/article/84274.html)
Youbet in contract dispute By Matt Hegarty

... Scott Daruty, the chief executive of TrackNet, said that the company objected to Youbet being the only account-wagering service that was carrying TVG's tracks on a sub-licensed basis, and so TrackNet was prepared to deny them its signals.

"We don't think they should be in a position that they are the only ones that can offer one-stop shopping and exploit that," Daruty said. "We are not prepared to allow that."

[LaughAndBeMerry]

QUOTE=Indulto]http://www.drf.com/news/article/84274.html
[color=black][font=Verdana][/QUOTE]

What Mr. Daruty said:

"We don't think they should be in a position that they are the only ones that can offer one-stop shopping and exploit that," Daruty said. "We are not prepared to allow that."




What Mr. Daruty meant:

"We don't give a shit about the horsemen or the players. If any of you don't like it you can stick it. We're Magna and Churchill and don't you ever friggin forget it. You all are just pieces of crap."

[Indulto]

What Mr. Daruty said:

"We don't think they should be in a position that they are the only ones that can offer one-stop shopping and exploit that," Daruty said. "We are not prepared to allow that."

What Mr. Daruty meant:

"We don't give a shit about the horsemen or the players. If any of you don't like it you can stick it. We're Magna and Churchill and don't you ever friggin forget it. You all are just pieces of crap."LABM,
The object of your affection must read this board:

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070423006323&newsLang=en (http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070423006323&newsLang=en)
TrackNet Media Responds to Youbet Announcement

… “We believe ADW companies should differentiate themselves based on innovation, customer service, customer satisfaction and the quality of their wagering platform – not based on exclusive content agreements.See, Premier Turf Club has nothing to worry about. If I interpret Mr. Daruty correctly, PTC will be judged by the character of his content. :lol: … “In order to achieve our goal of broad distribution, TrackNet Media is seeking an agreement with TVG that would provide for a content exchange between TrackNet Media and TVG. Such an agreement would, subject to receiving appropriate horsemen and regulatory approvals, allow all responsible, regulated ADW companies to offer all major U.S. racing content.Who am I to argue against another alliterator?... “The Youbet management team is aware of the fact that we are seeking a content exchange agreement with TVG. Nevertheless, Youbet elected today to issue a public statement that mistakenly accuses officials from TrackNet Media and its joint owners of failing to keep their word to horsemen, customers and the industry as a whole.

“… we believe the ultimate solution we are trying to achieve is in the best long-term interest of the industry. To that end, TrackNet Media remains committed to its efforts to make all horse racing content available to all responsible, regulated ADW platforms on fair, market-based terms.”I hope Mr. Daruty's actions are as awesome as his articulation.

[Indulto]

http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentID=165507 (http://www.casinocitytimes.com/news/article.cfm?contentID=165507)
United Tote, Churchill Downs contract extended
24 April 2007 (PRESS RELEASE)

United Tote, a subsidiary of Youbet.com, Inc. … announced today that its totalizator service contract with Churchill Downs, Inc. has been renewed to 2010.

… Last year, the Youbet subsidiary handled more than $175 million in wagers on Derby day, including $25 million in on- track bets placed by the 150,000 fans who attended last year's race.

… United Tote recently moved its Eastern Operations center to Louisville, home city of Churchill Downs, where the company now conducts its International business and houses its equipment maintenance, repair and warehousing facilities.Why doesn’t CDI just buy Youbet?

[alysheba88]

Giving serious thought to boycotting the Derby

[Indulto]

Giving serious thought to boycotting the DerbyToo serious to have any fun on Derby day? Your molars would have more impact. ;)

Are you going to boycott the Belmont if Empire gets the franchise?

[alysheba88]

Too serious to have any fun on Derby day? Your molars would have more impact. ;)

Are you going to boycott the Belmont if Empire gets the franchise?

If Empire gets the franchise dont think I will be New York again. Not kidding either.

As far as the Derby just fed up with the nonsense. Personally I am not that crazy about the Derby anyway. I wont say its just another day of racing, but I certainly dont feel like I used to about it. One of the few horseplayers I guess who doesnt go ga ga over the Triple Crown

[Indulto]

If Empire gets the franchise dont think I will be New York again. Not kidding either.

As far as the Derby just fed up with the nonsense. Personally I am not that crazy about the Derby anyway. I wont say its just another day of racing, but I certainly dont feel like I used to about it. One of the few horseplayers I guess who doesnt go ga ga over the Triple CrownTo me Derby day means lots of good races to handicap climaxed by a long-anticipated event with unusual potential for inflated payoffs.

BC day has diminished the importance and attractiveness of single stakes days at at major tracks, but not on Triple Crown days.

[alysheba88]

To me Derby day means lots of good races to handicap climaxed by a long-anticipated event with unusual potential for inflated payoffs.

BC day has diminished the importance and attractiveness of single stakes days at at major tracks, but not on Triple Crown days.

I guess I would rather focus on the other 364 days. I know people (definitely not saying you) would seemingly rather catch the Derby winner than make money the rest of the year. Was fortunate enough to catch the exacta in last year's Derby, and believe me still get chills before the race. But in the big scheme of things is less important to me now than ever before. Get more excitement out of capping a maiden claimer that I know I will hit big on

[wonatthewire1]

Stronach is very busy working on trying to buy Chrysler; who's got time to be worrying about carrying a stinkin' signal?

[BillW]

After listening to Steve's interview with the TrackNet CEO, it doesn't sound good. They view the problem as the customer getting a free ride. One of their stated goals is to raise the "extremely low price" that is now being charged for signals.

:rolleyes:

[alydar]

I have to say I am really disappointed. Churchill thinks that they are in a very powerful bargaining position with the Derby approaching, just as Magna plays their own games at year end when Gulfstream and Santa Anita are about to begin.

The problem is really very simple. These companies are in a business that has had no real growth in years. They have no idea how to change that except to stick their hands out and ask for more favorable legislation in states to get the right to slot machines, and to fight over the perceived shrinking pie. Magna’s stock is close to new lows and CDI’s stock has done nothing to talk about for years.



The fact is that both CDI and Magna get a relatively good price for their product. Anybody familiar the ADW business knows that there is less margin available then many would like to think. It is a lousy business. These companies can only squeeze so much. The reality is that they want the business to themselves. They claim to hate rebate shops but secretly work plans to operate one.



This is a power play, plain and simple. If they can get TVG and Youbet out of business then their plan will succeed. That is what they are trying to accomplish. I am not sure that this cartel will not have some anti trust issues to deal with here. In the meantime the small time players are screwed once again, by an industry that has no clue how to talk care of its customer base, not mention strengthen and build one.

[cj]

After listening to Steve's interview with the TrackNet CEO, it doesn't sound good. They view the problem as the customer getting a free ride. One of their stated goals is to raise the "extremely low price" that is now being charged for signals.

:rolleyes:

Wouldn't this just mean the ridiculous simulcast rates, where if a New York race is bet in WVa, for example, WVa gets most of the money?

If they change this, it COULD be a good thing for horseplayers. Rebate shops would cease to exist, allowing takeout to decrease. However, if the rebate shops go away and takeout does not decrease, the industry will find itself in big trouble IMO. Handle will shrink quickly.

[cj]

There are a couple of ways for the tracks to make money.

1) Get increases in handle.
2) Keep a bigger percentage of the handle.

The Tracknet plan seems focused on 2. The problem with that is it will most likely cause a decrease in 1. Am I missing something?

[alydar]

Want to show you feelings on this deal. Boycott the Derby. If they see lower handle on their "signature day" it may get their attention. Without the Derby and the money it generates CDI would be a in deep deep doo doo.

[BillW]

Wouldn't this just mean the ridiculous simulcast rates, where if a New York race is bet in WVa, for example, WVa gets most of the money?


In the example above, he was avocating that NY takeout more leaving the track (or ADW) handling the simulcast wager (in WVa) less - the state of WVa would take the same as the tax rate is mandated by WVa law. The only way for the track or ADW to hold their take constant is to raise the take from the customer.

[Indulto]

Want to show you feelings on this deal. Boycott the Derby. If they see lower handle on their "signature day" it may get their attention. Without the Derby and the money it generates CDI would be a in deep deep doo doo.I would imagine putting on the spectacle has extraordinary costs as well.

But why cut off your nose to spite your face and deprive yourself of the enjoyment and excitement of the Derby? Wait until AFTER the Derby and then IGNORE CD until they change their position. All you might accomplish otherwise would be to leave all the uniformed and/or non-serious player money in the pools to be swallowed up by rebated whales who will NOT be playing hookey.

[Indulto]

After listening to Steve's interview with the TrackNet CEO, it doesn't sound good. They view the problem as the customer getting a free ride. One of their stated goals is to raise the "extremely low price" that is now being charged for signals.Did I miss DT asking his guest about the possibility of lowering overall takeout without rebates? I had to laugh how the good questions posed came AFTER Daruty left, but maybe potential future sponsors aren’t supposed to get grilled.

It sure didn't sound good for new rebate shops. It might just be my interpretation, but it sounded to me as if they would have to prove 1) rebated customers play at an extremely high volume level, 2) said customers wouldn't play without a rebate, and 3) said customer was not "poached" from an existing wager-accepting entity.

Hardly sounded like free competition to me. Lawyers, start your briefcases. ;)

[ponypro]

Las Vegas has for years made it nearly "rocket science" to identify and reward their better customers. Its just good business and is a very very successful formula. "Organized Horse Racing" on the other hand DOES NOT KNOW who their customer is. They have never identified them and it wasnt until some wise guys in 3rd world countries began offering "REBATES" that they even cared. "Organized Horse Racing" is dominated by Big Egos, Big Pockets and alot of marginal businessmen. I think we are at a gigantic crossroad with this pissing match. Im really tired of all the politics and inabliity to put the customer needs first. Their is ZERO Leadership. Where is the NTRA???? The free enterprise system would allow this racing platform to evolve to the CUSTOMERS advantage but not with MONOPOLY BARONS at the wheel.

Anyway I love Oaks and Derby day, the pools on those days offer great value and great animals. I will probably go out to the simulcast, be treated like a herd cow, and that might be it for me for the rest of the year.

[alydar]

I agree I love Derby Day. For me it is one of the biggest days of the year. I think this year I will just watch and enjoy and put my money elsewhere. It is the event itself that I love, the anticipation etc.

I going to see if it is the same without any action. I usually lose on the race anyway.

[boomman]

cj stated:If they change this, it COULD be a good thing for horseplayers. Rebate shops would cease to exist, allowing takeout to decrease. However, if the rebate shops go away and takeout does not decrease, the industry will find itself in big trouble IMO. Handle will shrink quickly.[/QUOTE]

cj: Other than NYRA reducing takeout a few years ago, what other tracks have followed suit? If you think Tracknet has any intention of lowering takeout for their customers, you are living in a dream world! Rebate shops give something back to the player and Premier Turf Club has pledged to do so with as little as $2000 in play monthly. So how in the world would eliminating rebate shops help the player?

Boomer

[cj]

If rebate shops were to go away, the handle would shrink. There is only one way to get it back, which would be to lower takeout. Overall lower takeout would be better for the game than a select few getting a lower price. Tracks would now have incentive for the average player to get a lower takeout, where now they have none. It is just the opposite, in fact.

No track can just lower the take. It must be requested through state government.

The worst part about this scenario is it is the tracks themselves that set their fees too low. The player's fee of around 20% has not changed one bit, yet it is us that are getting screwed. Let's screw the players so we can keep more of the money we chose to give away.

[BillW]

Craig,

I agree! I think most people see rebates as being something different than lower takeout. The reality is that it is exactly the same thing. Rebates occur because ADW's seem to be much smarter business people than the tracks (sorry for stating the obvious :rolleyes: ). It is the only mechanism they have for lowering the take.

[cj]

Just my thinking Bill. This "lower takeout" is the only thing that has kept handle at the supposedly healthy levels it is now. Eventually, players will dwindle away if this isn't fixed. Tracknet seems to want to keep the whales and increase the price, which basically means screw the smaller bettors. Good luck to them with that strategy.

[jma]

Las Vegas has for years made it nearly "rocket science" to identify and reward their better customers. Its just good business and is a very very successful formula. "Organized Horse Racing" on the other hand DOES NOT KNOW who their customer is. They have never identified them and it wasnt until some wise guys in 3rd world countries began offering "REBATES" that they even cared. "Organized Horse Racing" is dominated by Big Egos, Big Pockets and alot of marginal businessmen. I think we are at a gigantic crossroad with this pissing match. Im really tired of all the politics and inabliity to put the customer needs first. Their is ZERO Leadership. Where is the NTRA???? The free enterprise system would allow this racing platform to evolve to the CUSTOMERS advantage but not with MONOPOLY BARONS at the wheel.

Anyway I love Oaks and Derby day, the pools on those days offer great value and great animals. I will probably go out to the simulcast, be treated like a herd cow, and that might be it for me for the rest of the year.

It's really a screwed-up situation. I'd go so far as to say that many tracks know who their customers are but don't care to help them. They want to keep their business what it is right now and ignore it slowly bleeding away, hoping that slot machines or whatever will save them in the future. You mention the NTRA, and not that I disagree with you, but what can they really do anyway? Racetracks are run by many different organizations, so it's not as if they can all be "ordered" to do something. Finally, even if a track did want to lower takeout (I know, unlikely, but...), they have to jump through legislative hoops where that state's legislators will come back with "But that means less money for us! Why would you do that?" So, it's a mess. I do agree with the idea that takeout reduction is only possible if the tracks wake up and realize they need to fight for it, no matter how difficult, and that this is the most important reform to get the game really growing again. But it seems like my usual bets---a longshot.

[DerbyTrail]

Did I miss DT asking his guest about the possibility of lowering overall takeout without rebates? I had to laugh how the good questions posed came AFTER Daruty left, but maybe potential future sponsors aren’t supposed to get grilled.

It sure didn't sound good for new rebate shops. It might just be my interpretation, but it sounded to me as if they would have to prove 1) rebated customers play at an extremely high volume level, 2) said customers wouldn't play without a rebate, and 3) said customer was not "poached" from an existing wager-accepting entity.

Hardly sounded like free competition to me. Lawyers, start your briefcases. ;)
Ind,

I was trying to get the topline issues out as well as the crux of the impasse between TrackNet and YouBet. 24 minutes isn't enough time to get into all the aspects of this complex set of issues with one of the major players in the situation, and given that I'd like to get him back on ATRAB again, "grilling" Daruty wasn't going to accomplish much.

We try to bring these kinds of discussions to the horseplayers/listeners, and having access to guys like Daruty is vital to that. I appreciated his willingness to come on and his agreeing to continue to be available. I think the audience is smart enough to draw their own conclusions without me going out of my way to alienate industry players.

[Indulto]

Ind,

I was trying to get the topline issues out as well as the crux of the impasse between TrackNet and YouBet. 24 minutes isn't enough time to get into all the aspects of this complex set of issues with one of the major players in the situation, and given that I'd like to get him back on ATRAB again, "grilling" Daruty wasn't going to accomplish much.

We try to bring these kinds of discussions to the horseplayers/listeners, and having access to guys like Daruty is vital to that. I appreciated his willingness to come on and his agreeing to continue to be available. I think the audience is smart enough to draw their own conclusions without me going out of my way to alienate industry players.DT,
For the most part, your shows are entertaining and informative. I haven’t listened as often lately since tlg’s commercial side manifested itself, but I still remember your hard-hitting interview with the Breeder’s Cup representative, and would have liked to have heard you take a similarly challenging approach in this one.

I don’t expect you to either confirm or deny the following speculation, but I suspect his appearance required assurances that you wouldn’t play hardball with him. And that would be OK with me if it hadn’t come across as another TrackNet press release AND your post-interview comments didn’t make it obvious that there were important questions unasked and unresolved.

The BS from both you and Daruty about how difficult it is to understand the issues didn’t help, either.

Well, at least you got him to gloss over rebates.

I also had to laugh when one of your callers referred to a “Dakota” entity without specificity. Assuming he was referring to Premier Turf Club, it occurred to me that he would make a great guest on your show. Hopefully, you and he would take questions from callers should you decide to have him on. If his posts here are any indication, you would probably get frank, meaningful responses to hard-hitting questions about what is really going on inside the ADW industry. Go for it!

As to your on-air references to your website, how come lurking isn’t allowed there?

[Kelso]

even if a track did want to lower takeout (I know, unlikely, but...), they have to jump through legislative hoops where that state's legislators will come back with "But that means less money for us! Why would you do that?"


JMA,
Takeout is used for several purposes, only one of which is feeding politicians.

If handle increases substantially (for whatever reasons), and/or slot money starts rolling in, couldn't tracks reduce (unilaterally or with state sanction, as appropriate) only their portion of the take and make up for the lower percentage with the higher volume and/or the new revenue source? Did NYRA reduce only the tax segment of their takeout?

If tracks reduce their portion as much as possible, in consonance with business realities of course, the logical next assault ... by player-voters and industry organizations ... would be against the greedy legislators. The divide and conquer gambit.

Not at all suggesting either that reduction would be easy to achieve, but I think players shouldn't allow tracks to hide behind the state tax argument when there is much more they can do from their own piece of the action.

[the little guy]

For the most part, your shows are entertaining and informative. I haven’t listened as often lately since tlg’s commercial side manifested itself, but I still remember your hard-hitting interview with the Breeder’s Cup representative, and would have liked to have heard you take a similarly challenging approach in this one.




So, let me get this straight, because something ( that I can't determine by the way ) has manifested itself during my half-hour weekly appearance, roughly 3% of their weekly airtime, you no longer listen as much?

That makes sense. For a second there I thought you were just taking a lame cheap shot. Glad I thought it through and found your logic.

[Indulto]

So, let me get this straight, because something ( that I can't determine by the way ) has manifested itself during my half-hour weekly appearance, roughly 3% of their weekly airtime, you no longer listen as much?

That makes sense. For a second there I thought you were just taking a lame cheap shot. Glad I thought it through and found your logic.Exactly who did you perceive to be the target of the alleged cheap shot?

Aren’t you happy helping horseplayers handicap or are you having a hard time finding hidden horses? ;)

[cj]

I haven’t listened as often lately since tlg’s commercial side manifested itself

Stevie Wonder could find it. That isn't a cheap shot?

[jma]

JMA,
Takeout is used for several purposes, only one of which is feeding politicians.

If handle increases substantially (for whatever reasons), and/or slot money starts rolling in, couldn't tracks reduce (unilaterally or with state sanction, as appropriate) only their portion of the take and make up for the lower percentage with the higher volume and/or the new revenue source? Did NYRA reduce only the tax segment of their takeout?

If tracks reduce their portion as much as possible, in consonance with business realities of course, the logical next assault ... by player-voters and industry organizations ... would be against the greedy legislators. The divide and conquer gambit.

Not at all suggesting either that reduction would be easy to achieve, but I think players shouldn't allow tracks to hide behind the state tax argument when there is much more they can do from their own piece of the action.

Can't argue with that, but sadly the racetracks are only slightly less greedy than the politicians. I wish we had seen the tracks that got slot machines follow that up with cutting takeout, even if it was only a few percentage points, since they could afford to do it if any tracks could. However, once they have the slots, they are content to just count the money. I feel that most of these places wouldn't mind if the racing stopped there---they could just run casinos and be happy.

Depressing to be so cynical...but I think there's a lot we're up against.
I don't think we should give up, and it would be nice if the racetracks at least tried. That could tie back into the hypothetical horseplayers' organizations mentioned in various threads---we'd have to be sure to strongly support any tracks that did cut takeout. Maybe someday...

[Indulto]

Stevie Wonder could find it. That isn't a cheap shot?Maybe if you took off your sunglasses, you wouldn't keep finding phantom insults. Insight isn't seeing the invisible, cj, but take comfort that this one is in plain sight. ;)

Any humor in the remark you cited (pun intended) is self-directed as my efforts to catch every tlg appearance for news about NYRA (archived ones with valid links, anyway) are a matter of record.

[cj]

I actually, years ago obviously, went to high school on an English scholarship. Despite that, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

I actually, years ago obviously, went to high school on an English scholarship. Despite that, I have no idea what you are trying to say.

I'm just curious, where did you need a scholarship go to high school? Some sort of private academy?

Carry on, Carry on......

[Indulto]

I actually, years ago obviously, went to high school on an English scholarship.cj,
I was awaiting the requested details of your career as a communications prodigy to assess any potential for clarity parity, but I’ll just have to go with what I’ve got. ;) Despite that, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Your problem would appear to precede my previous post since -- if I understood YOU correctly -- you had no idea what I was saying, yet you were certain I took a “cheap shot” at the thin-skinned one, so you shot off your sightless singer story at me in support.

For the record, as the helpful one’s total weekly ATRAB appearances decreased after his commercials started, I visited the archives less frequently, and listened to fewer other slots as a result. Re: the latest segment, is there general agreement here that Youbet has “the finest internet betting platform there is?” I can only hope he was spoofing in describing a planned scenario with Beyer to try and pick a superfecta with the LAST FOUR FINISHERS! How much more help can we hope for?

The real irony here, however, is that by poking fun at myself I still succeeded in provoking the ‘Toga Tag Team. Stay on your toes, you touchy twosome, the challenge to your comprehension skills continues. :lol:

[Indulto]

I forgot to include my appreciation to the ATRAB host for not letting the Baeza situation fall out of the public's eyesight.

I wish the guests who keep repeating how complex the ADW issues are would explain why they think they are. Enron WAS complex, but the jurors managed to figure it out. The ATRAB boys are bright and articulate. I'm sure that if they wanted to, they could lay it all out instead of hemming and hawing.

[the little guy]

The truth is that your posts are designed to create animosity....either that or your desperate attempts to appears intelligent through your use of the English language has confused both CJ and myself.

My appearances on ATRAB have NOT decreased, or particularly increased, at any time during my tenure on the show. I have always been on for 30 minutes a week. Sometimes I stay on a little longer and sometimes I make a second appearance. Neither of those circumstances have changed. For someone that claims to listen intently I am surprised you don't know this. Or, perhaps, you are just trying to pick a fight.

The very simple explanation as to why this issue was deemed " confusing " is that I simply don't have all the facts and one needs to be careful when publicly speaking about issues when they don't have all the facts. I can only imagine the bullshit I might have to hear from someone such as yourself if I spoke inaccurately. Saying nothing is FAR better than speaking of which one does not truly understand. Perhaps you would do well to take that advice to heart.

[Indulto]

… My appearances on ATRAB have NOT decreased, or particularly increased, at any time during my tenure on the show. I have always been on for 30 minutes a week. Sometimes I stay on a little longer and sometimes I make a second appearance. Neither of those circumstances have changed. For someone that claims to listen intently I am surprised you don't know this. I can only go by what appears in the archived slot titles and not even then. For example, Youbet’s Champion was listed as a guest several times, but didn’t actually appear in those slots for one reason or another. If you folks "deem" not to dig too deeply, I have to conclude that I didn’t miss anything even if he did finally appear in some slot whose title either didn't include his name or else eluded my vision.… The very simple explanation as to why this issue was deemed " confusing " is that I simply don't have all the facts and one needs to be careful when publicly speaking about issues when they don't have all the facts. I can only imagine the bullshit I might have to hear from someone such as yourself if I spoke inaccurately. Saying nothing is FAR better than speaking of which one does not truly understand. Perhaps you would do well to take that advice to heart.Thanks for being so generous with your advice. Was the reason you declined to elaborate on your statement regarding Youbet’s wagering platform based on that same principle? Given your ability to persuasively support your endorsement of Formulator, I was surprised when no similar explanation of your opinion was forthcoming in this situation.

[cj]

cj,
I was awaiting the requested details of your career as a communications prodigy to assess any potential for clarity parity, but I’ll just have to go with what I’ve got.

What details? If I went on a scholarship, it is pretty darn obvious I must have went to a school that was not free.

After reading other posts this morning, I see I am not the only one unable to ascertain what you are talking about. At least I'll sleep better knowing it isn't just me.

[Indulto]

... After reading other posts this morning, I see I am not the only one unable to ascertain what you are talking about. At least I'll sleep better knowing it isn't just me.cj,
As I acknowedged my inability to communicate well with SJ, so I acknowledge that fact to you as well. Enjoy your nap.