Can ANYONE learn to Program?? [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

philsfan07

03-29-2007, 11:30 AM

Let me preface this email by saying the following:

1) I have NEVER programmed ANYTHING before EVER

2) I am very good with Excel and have created several interactive templates to import and manipulate data to exactly what I need (to a point)

3) I have never been good with VBA in Excel

4) I have little to no knowledge of coding or anything relative to programming language

With that being said, is there a programming language out there that ANYONE can figure out? I would like to customize my own program to give me the figures I need, but need to go a step further into the dark side of programming, as Excel can only give me MOST, but not all of it.

I guess what I am asking is whether there is anyone here that was able to start from 'scratch', learn a progrmming language and approach some degree of success with customizing a program for yourself?

(I don't expect lightning in a bottle, as I expect it will take a ton of reading, asking questions and trial and error)

headhawg

03-29-2007, 12:20 PM

philsfan,

"I guess what I am asking is whether there is anyone here that was able to start from 'scratch', learn a programming language and approach some degree of success with customizing a program for yourself?"

Let me answer your main question as truthfully as I can: Not everyone can teach themselves or even learn by instruction. I teach computer classes for a living, from MOS to MCSE, and some people can't do things even if I show them step by step using a projector. However, those people who have some mental capacity for computers can definitely learn how.

I think it was Handiman who recommended a programming language a while ago which I purchased and have not been disappointed. I am old school, so I had trouble with "object-oriented" programming. That is, create the Windows objects (buttons, menus, etc) and then write the code that performs the actions when the object is activated. I bought Liberty Basic (www.libertybasic.com) because it was a more traditional language which also has the ability to create Windows objects fairly easily.

I had a student with no programming experience (but a real desire to learn) purchase the Beginning Programming for Dummies book that includes the demo version of Liberty Basic. She followed the examples and was pretty excited about being able to write some simple programs, so it definitely can be done by someone with no experience.

HH

BTW, I am a self-taught programming dabbler; there are way better coders here on this board.

the_fat_man

03-29-2007, 01:19 PM

Tired of all the BASIC and VB bs.

You can learn to program; there are many online resources.

As I understand it, probably the easiest language to learn YET a very powerful language, is PYTHON. (A portion of Python syntax is tricky for those accustomed to typical programming language syntax but this should not be an issue to a newbie.)

Personally, I recommed PERL. Nothing you can't do with Perl. Plenty of resources out there; plenty of code.

In a few weeks (or months depending how much type you devote to it) you should have a custom program in place.

Dave Schwartz

03-29-2007, 02:02 PM

Phils,

That is how I learned - but it was 1978 and BASIC was a language with under 150 "words." How tough could it be?

The bad news is that things have changed. Now the languages have a veritable dictionary.

3) I have never been good with VBA in Excel

I would say that this would be a show-stopper. VBA is very simple in comparison to most programming languages.

If this is too much for you, then you will be highly frustrated with C++.

If you can get past this statement (so that it is no longer true), you could probably handle SQL.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

RobinFromIreland

03-29-2007, 02:09 PM

Check out Ruby

Boats

03-29-2007, 03:01 PM

the_fat_man

03-29-2007, 04:53 PM

If math was real easy for you, you can learn to program. Not that math is necessarily involved, but it takes the same kind of logical mind. If you are serious in learning programming, I would suggest that you start with the latest and greatest development system, Visual Studio 2005. Microsoft is giving away free, both Visual Basic and Visual C#, Express editions which can be downloaded. Both are very powerful development systems. Probably a better way would be to buy a book which includes a cd. Make sure the cd is from Microsoft. Get either ‘Visual Basic 2005 Express’ or ‘Visual C# 2005 Express’. Probably $15 or $20. See

http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/ (http://msdn.microsoft.com/vstudio/express/)

Good luck.

Or what he could do is get out of MICROSHAFT shackles and learn Perl or PYTHON. Just as easy and MORE POWERFUL. Plenty of FREE tutorials and books ONLINE. Plenty of forums. Plenty of code. Plenty of help.

What's the obsession with VB?

No serious college programming curriculum that I know of includes VB. Why might that be?

BillW

03-29-2007, 05:05 PM

Check out Ruby

Ruby does not have the wealth of system libraries available as Python does (caveat - I haven't checked in the last year or so - note to me, "go check" :D ), but in my opinion is a better starter language.

njcurveball

03-29-2007, 05:15 PM

"I guess what I am asking is whether there is anyone here that was able to start from 'scratch', learn a programming language and approach some degree of success with customizing a program for yourself?"

Somewhere along the line computers got this almost mystical quality and many people today will still prefer a plea of ignorance before reading a manual. That is not directed at anyone in particular, by the way.

I wonder what a mechanic would say if I asked the same question? Do you think I can learn from 'scratch" how to fix my car and rebuild my engine?

Obviously I can read the owners manual, buy plenty of books, but even if mechanically inclined, there still are things that are shown and taught much better than read.

How bout if you asked a Golf Instructor the same question? A doctor?

This is not meant to be "tongue in cheek", just to bring your question to a level everyone understands.

Tiger Woods would be a very good golfer today without lessons. But he could not be on the tour, let alone a champion. You can take self-learning so far, but if you want to excel (no pun intended) at some point you will need to find a good teacher.

Jim

highnote

03-30-2007, 01:36 AM

Maybe try to find an older, simpler version of BASIC to start.

Maybe even find some old computer with BASIC on it.

I think I've got a couple in my garage. I think I sent PA Tom a version of BASIC a while back. Maybe he can refresh my memory.

I'd be glad to send it to you.

Apple used to a have a good BASIC program; as did ATARI and probably Commodore.

I learned BASIC by typing in programs from magazines. Then I typed in a Blackjack card game. Then I modified it so that it would run automatically to a set of simple card counting rules.

Funny, I always won at home during the simulations, but lost in the casinos. :D Of course, every time I started winning in a casino they changed the dealer. Bastards!

Horse racing programming is infinately more fun.

philsfan07

03-30-2007, 04:29 PM

Somewhere along the line computers got this almost mystical quality and many people today will still prefer a plea of ignorance before reading a manual. That is not directed at anyone in particular, by the way.

I wonder what a mechanic would say if I asked the same question? Do you think I can learn from 'scratch" how to fix my car and rebuild my engine?

Obviously I can read the owners manual, buy plenty of books, but even if mechanically inclined, there still are things that are shown and taught much better than read.

How bout if you asked a Golf Instructor the same question? A doctor?

This is not meant to be "tongue in cheek", just to bring your question to a level everyone understands.

Tiger Woods would be a very good golfer today without lessons. But he could not be on the tour, let alone a champion. You can take self-learning so far, but if you want to excel (no pun intended) at some point you will need to find a good teacher.

Jim
I don't have the time, nor desire to excel. I want to manage, that's all.

Not looking to win the Masters, just customize a handicapping program :-)

njcurveball

03-30-2007, 04:49 PM

I totally understand Philsfan!

I wish you the best of luck!

Jim

Tom

03-31-2007, 01:38 AM

Yes, Jonh sent me Qbaisc a while back. I would be happy to share it - contact me.

Also, I looked into Perl on TFM's advice...looks pretty decent,. with lots of support.

Greyfox

03-31-2007, 01:50 AM

Who teaches "The Teacher?"

highnote

03-31-2007, 02:56 AM

Who teaches "The Teacher?"

The Student?

ranchwest

03-31-2007, 10:31 AM

I believe you'll find that simple programming is doable if you can pick up most computer concepts.

The tough part is learning to write something you can maintain. If you just want to do one or two simple computations, no problem. Me, I dabble with reports on everything imaginable (and then some), so my programs are always evolving. Even with lots of programming experience, it sometimes gets to be a bit of a mess with the myriad computations and outputs because with handicapping you probably don't know what to plan because you'll only know what you want once you get there, lol. This is where experience helps.

Unless you have some reason to have pretty charts and graphs and displays, I think you might find it easier to stay away from the Windows intensive languages, which leave you spending more time building Windows and objects than outputting information. Several people above have made similar suggestions.

I use Clipper. It is pretty simple to use and can easily import delimited files or dBase files. Clipper, dBase, FoxPro and a few other languages are called "xBase" because they handle dBase files, but I prefer Clipper because it can handle the huge number of fields (data items) that some of the data providers have (TSN files have 1435 fields). I would suspect you could pick up a copy of Clipper on EBay for cheap. The preferred version would be 5.2e. The original company was bought out and the new company put out a screwed up version 5.3, but I wouldn't recommend it. It has more bells and whistles, but some don't work.

If you decide to pick up a language on EBay, see if they have some books they'll throw in with it. If they have books for a language they don't use any more, they'll probably be glad to free up some space. You might have a hefty shipping bill, but I think it'd be worth it.

DJofSD

03-31-2007, 11:48 AM

The tough part is learning to write something you can maintain.

A good suggestion and I'll take it a little bit further by adding this: you also need to be able to debug your creations too. Not just during the initial development and testing but perhaps years later when it breaks.

Learning fundamental skills while using BASIC is an approach I endorse. Once you've got those under your belt what you migrate to next is some what dependent on your focus. Part of being a good programmer is learning to use the correct tool for the job at hand.

Learning the traditional approach by using a structured language is OK. But if you can start out with something that is object based or object oriented, there's a whole different universe out there. Visit some other boards out there on the net to glean what you can before you take the leap.

Good luck.

Tom

03-31-2007, 01:13 PM

the_fat_man

03-31-2007, 02:40 PM

Yes, Jonh sent me Qbaisc a while back. I would be happy to share it - contact me.

Also, I looked into Perl on TFM's advice...looks pretty decent,. with lots of support.

Everything is a fight on this board.

The gentleman mentions that he USES EXCEL but

can't get into VB conceptually.

But the board members INSIST that he really needs to learn a version of BASIC. Sounds counterproductive to me.

The FATMAN suggests he learns the jackofalltrades language, PERL. Probably, the language with the largest support community out there. WHATEVER you might want to do has ALREADY been done.
MOREOVER. Perl has at LEAST 2 EXCEL modules for those who need to work with EXCEL. Go figure.

YEAH, you don't need to write your own EXCEL code cause SOME SPECIALIST, LONGTIME PERL GURU, has already done that for you.

(Or, you can use OLE.)

Now, why would anyone want to take this path? Especially since it's suggested by someone renowned for being lazy.

ranchwest

03-31-2007, 03:31 PM

I want to open a BRIS or other text file, extract some fields, and do some calulations, like say (F345+F356)/2, simple stuff, but maybe use a look up table or if/then command. I think Perl will do what I need - would CLipper be good for this?
I know the old DOS basic, and could de a lot with it, but not sure how to write the code in the newer stuff.

Yes, Clipper will read in delimited files, use lookups, do several conditionals including IF-THEN, etc. It also has some VERY mild objects that could help a person learn the basics of object-oriented programming.

Clipper is similar enough to BASIC to where it isn't real hard to learn the fundamentals.

Keep in mind that you'll probably be loading the data into a file and that means setting up one heck of lot of fields, which takes a long time. I recently did it for TSN files, over 1400 fields. The online specs said the beaten lengths couldn't be more than 99. Well, those dang Australian horses sometimes have 100 listed for beaten lengths. That's a PITA. Fairly simple to change the file layout, but it takes some time to track down the last data successfully imported.

If you decide to go with Clipper, let me know, I might be able to send you some tools that would help you out.

ranchwest

03-31-2007, 03:33 PM

Everything is a fight on this board.

The gentleman mentions that he USES EXCEL but

can't get into VB conceptually.

But the board members INSIST that he really needs to learn a version of BASIC. Sounds counterproductive to me.

The FATMAN suggests he learns the jackofalltrades language, PERL. Probably, the language with the largest support community out there. WHATEVER you might want to do has ALREADY been done.
MOREOVER. Perl has at LEAST 2 EXCEL modules for those who need to work with EXCEL. Go figure.

YEAH, you don't need to write your own EXCEL code cause SOME SPECIALIST, LONGTIME PERL GURU, has already done that for you.

(Or, you can use OLE.)

Now, why would anyone want to take this path? Especially since it's suggested by someone renowned for being lazy.

Opinions are like noses, everybody has one, so we'll always get a lot of them on this board.

I think the reason folks are recommending BASIC is that they're suggesting going back to a more rudimentary form of BASIC.

Tom

03-31-2007, 04:34 PM

Everything is a fight on this board.

That only seems to hold true of threads YOU get into.
What the heck is the purpose of your post quoting me, other than being an A-HOLE?? John mentioned he sent me a copy of QBasic and I replied that he had, and would share it if the other guy was interested, and then I even mentioned I looked into a program YOU mentioned in this thread and found it looked interesting, too. I don't recall anyone yelling "Hey, suey, suey suey!"

Dave Schwartz

03-31-2007, 04:35 PM

Anyone who considers using an older version of BASIC needs to be conscious of them (possibly) producing 16-bit code or running in a 16-bit environment.

A funny story about programming languages and horse racing:

If you are familiar with Asian racing at all, you know the name "Bill Benter." He is reputed to have taken over two billion dollars out of Hong Kong's race tracks over a span of less than ten years.

Benter's programming tool of choice was FoxPro, probably because of its ease of use over the competition (dBase) back in the '80s.

Over his time there he had many programmers come and go from his "team." When they left, they all seemed to have taken a copy of his program with them.

Every Asian team I have ever worked or spoken with uses FoxPro.

Footnote: No wonder his stuff stopped working.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

highnote

03-31-2007, 04:57 PM

Footnote: No wonder his stuff stopped working.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Not trying to be a smartass, but did it stop working?

Indulto

03-31-2007, 05:51 PM

Lots of good commentary here and it all boils down to finding what works for you.

Just as none of us would produce the same code in developing an application with the same programming tool, we all have different needs, expectations, objectives, time constraints, and control over our hardware and software environments.

Programming to obtain information for oneself doesn’t have to be the same complicated exercise required to produce information for others, but without discipline even simple tasks can squander resources.

Perl may be just the thing for tfm, but I suspect I would flounder with it much as I did with Paradox and DataFlex even though I was already very productive using FoxPro and Clipper. Using Excel without your own macros is not programming. Nor is using a report writer, but even those products require data processing skills to accomplish anything of significant complexity.

QBASIC (or GW BASIC, MS-BASIC, etc.) is the simplest programming tool to master. If your aren’t comfortable with it after a modest investment of your time, chances are that no other software tool that implements detailed data manipulation logic will be suitable either. But as others have pointed out, in today’s Object Oriented world, spending too much time with Procedural Programming tools is counterproductive.

ranchwest

03-31-2007, 06:03 PM

But as others have pointed out, in today’s Object Oriented world, spending too much time with Procedural Programming tools is counterproductive.

That's certainly true for those who anticipate growing into another language. For someone who is just looking to do something quick and dirty for their handicapping, object oriented programming may be significant overkill.

Indulto

03-31-2007, 06:17 PM

That's certainly true for those who anticipate growing into another language. For someone who is just looking to do something quick and dirty for their handicapping, object oriented programming may be significant overkill.RW,
I agree that may be the case for many individuals, but not if you're just starting out and don't have the benefit of having already generated your own toolbox for your environment that facilitates complex processing you do repeatedly. If I were starting to do PC programming today, I would probably use ACCESS which I haven't looked at in years. Hopefully it is far less buggy now and has more flexible display capabilities.

the_fat_man

03-31-2007, 06:21 PM

That only seems to hold true of threads YOU get into.
What the heck is the purpose of your post quoting me, other than being an A-HOLE?? John mentioned he sent me a copy of QBasic and I replied that he had, and would share it if the other guy was interested, and then I even mentioned I looked into a program YOU mentioned in this thread and found it looked interesting, too. I don't recall anyone yelling "Hey, suey, suey suey!"

Now, why exactly is it that because I quoted you, you seem to thinking it was in order to disparage you?

The intent was positive NOT negative, as you seemed willing to give Perl a try.

So, suck it up and put the dooks down.

ranchwest

03-31-2007, 06:41 PM

RW,
I agree that may be the case for many individuals, but not if you're just starting out and don't have the benefit of having already generated your own toolbox for your environment that facilitates complex processing you do repeatedly. If I were starting to do PC programming today, I would probably use ACCESS which I haven't looked at in years. Hopefully it is far less buggy now and has more flexible display capabilities.

Doesn't ACCESS have a limited number of fields for its native tables? If so, that would plunge a newby directly into normalization.

Red Knave

03-31-2007, 07:51 PM

The FATMAN suggests he learns the jackofalltrades language, PERL. Probably, the language with the largest support community out there.Maybe, but if you look at job postings on a site like Monster.com, you will find more VB programmers wanted than Perl programmers. Go figure. :)
WHATEVER you might want to do has ALREADY been done.
MOREOVER. Perl has at LEAST 2 EXCEL modules for those who need to work with EXCEL. Go figure.Ditto and double ditto for VB. It's the language that Excel knows about.
YEAH, you don't need to write your own EXCEL code cause SOME SPECIALIST, LONGTIME PERL GURU, has already done that for you.
(Or, you can use OLE.)Ditto and ditto again for VB.
Now, why would anyone want to take this path? Especially since it's suggested by someone renowned for being lazy.Okay, point taken ;) .

But VB is still a good yarstick to measure against. I suspect that if you have trouble with VB script then you'll have trouble with Perl, Python, Ruby et. al.

Philsfan, take a basic night or weekend onsite (i.e. not online) course in any computer language at a high school or college. If you come out understanding the concepts about branching, looping and if-then logic, you will have a good enough grounding to write code in most languages. (Forth being an explicit exception) .

Best of luck.

Dave Schwartz

03-31-2007, 08:32 PM

Not trying to be a smartass, but did it stop working?

John,

The simple answer is, "Yes."

The more complex answer, told to me by members of two different teams, is that originally "they" had about a 16% advantage. Year by year it dwindled. When it fell to 2 or 3% he had the foresight to get out.

That is the same story told to me about P.M., a highly successful Australian. After watching their advanatge in Hong Kong drop to 2%, they opted for Japan instead. (Your well-respected "friend" consulted for P.M. , btw.)

This is also probably why most of the H.K. teams never get past the first year: they take their 700-race shot with limited bankroll and an old approach. Between expenses and losses, they don't have any money to re-tool for year two.

Dave

obeguy

06-22-2007, 03:01 PM

robert99

06-23-2007, 12:50 PM

KYJACK

06-28-2007, 12:55 PM

Yes, if you are a painstaking, pedantic type of person with endless patience and the imagination to foresee every wrong move the user might make, then you will succeed but don't expect any credit. If you shout at things that go wrong, are always in a hurry to finish things, then let the former types do it better.I agree! The former types do make good programmers. The latter types become project managers ("I need it now! If it boots and kinda works - ship it! Then we'll charge em for custom programming to fix it as an enhancement" - No kidding, the owner of a small consulting company that I once worked for, actually told me this! :bang: )

Jack

KYJACK

06-28-2007, 02:01 PM

Can anyone learn to program competently is the right question. Anyone can learn to program but it takes years of experience to avoid pitdalls. Programming is highly individual and unless you what you are doing, the wrong results can be generated.obeguy

Actually, you can know what you're doing, and still shoot yourself in the foot!

As horse racing is especially data-intensive, attention to detail is very important. e.g. you may have to wade through hundreds of races to weed out weird gotcha's that may crash your code - e.g. a foreign horse with incomplete past performance data, or do you detect and properly handle horse that did not finish? What about missing data? Always remember to test your code as much as possible!

To me, it's like working a jigsaw puzzle. If you have patience to sit and put the little pieces in the proper order, then you may have what it takes!

It also helps to start out playing video games. Then when you start programming - on some unconscious level - you're still playing a game while you're working!

Back in the late 70's, I went to work for AT&T. They and IBM would also hire 'Music Majors' to become programmers. They felt that the mindset of a musician, was suited to picking up the programming disipline.

After I became a programmer, I developed a taste for exotic foods (at least to me. :) ) beer, pizza, tacos, sushi. A lot of computer types at school and work were "Fun Machines" - we went skiing, ice skating, camping, played volleyball, had parties, traveled, etc. Programming can be a kind of a 'high' - you find yourself with energy to do stuff! Before computers, while studying engineering, I just worked a job, watched TV, and ate cheeseburgers!

Programming is like being a bear out for a stroll and coming across a beehive full of honey! You know that if you can just get rid of those pesty bees, there's going to be some good eating! If you can't get rid of most of em, it's going to be an unpleasant experience. Good computer code hums along nicely and is sweet as honey! Bad computer code can sting like a killer bee!

Finally on choosing a language - It's not just the language itself! Obviously, it should be powerful enough to do the job, but it's also the other stuff! Can you find a good reference book for it? Can you Google search the language for HOWTOs, code libraries and website articles? Are there fellow handicappers using it? Are there weekly/monthly newsletters about it? Are there forums about it, like PaceAdvantage is to horseracing? Can you work with someone on a common project learning/using it? Can you ask someone a question about it?

Try not to waste time reinventing the wheel if possible! In programming, no man is an island! Many times, it's about the support resources! To go it alone with an elegant language with limited user support is like being a pioneer. And according to the old joke - How do you recognize the pioneers? They're the one with the arrows in their backs!

Jack

robert99

06-28-2007, 03:49 PM

I agree! The former types do make good programmers. The latter types become project managers ("I need it now! If it boots and kinda works - ship it! Then we'll charge em for custom programming to fix it as an enhancement" - No kidding, the owner of a small consulting company that I once worked for, actually told me this! :bang: )

Jack

Not surprised but sad that this is still allowed to go on. It wrecks company reputations in no time.

Apparently, the latest business mantra is that the customer is the enemy and your rival company is your friend.

The customer keeps asking questions, makes complaints and expects things to be fixed at your cost - all that upsets your staff and costs you money.

Your rival on the other hand is just as c**p as your company, gets up to the same dodgy practices and keeps the customer expectation down real low - so more profits.

Scary. I can see us having to scrape work from India, China and Japan if this takes any more hold.

Gibbon

06-28-2007, 10:22 PM

...former types do make good programmers. The latter types become project managers... This is more than just a theoretical exercise. If one company is not first to market another company will be first and possibly develop a substantial lead. In the first Gulf War, for instance, 28 soldiers died because Patriot guidance software stopped working properly after 14 hours of continuous use. But the need to lead is vitally important to industry.

Microsoft, Apple have flaws with every new release. It's impossible to test for every configuration. Executives see a new project as good enough to market not flawless. With Microsoft we are all testers in the wild. As we all know patches appear endless. Software is becoming an important infrastructure of our society, and software defects regularly are the cause of financial damage, or even the loss of human lives - not to mention the usual annoyances millions of users experience everyday.

The issue of the license agreements is even more pathetic where abusive clauses are added as new versions comes out. The customer has no right what so ever against crappy softwares. The software industry is sick and may need to be regulated.

The fact is that many software projects are run along old fashioned lines - you have a goal, you get a budget and a project plan , you get staff and off you go - hopefully starting with a sound design and architecture. Projects fall apart because poor management, project planning or poor design / architecture choices. Programmers are all too often put under immense time constraints by managers who have no idea how to code - and then wonder why the product is missing functionality and has some bugs.

Software companies have two sets of goals. One from programmers and another from management. Management needs to sell, sell and sell. There is never adequate time for complete testing.

______________________
The difference between school and life? In school, you're taught a lesson and then given a test. In life, you're given a test that teaches you a lesson.

robert99

06-29-2007, 03:29 PM

I can go along with that.
Whereas almost all products have got more reliable, software has often a culture of accepting faults as inevitable. That was possibly acceptable in the early days but it should be considering itself a mature industry by now.

The customers seems out of the loop. I don't want constant change, multiple options that do the same thing, or software with options added that I would never even want to know about. I lose confidence in the product if patches get downloaded every few weeks. Each multiple option leads to the probability of an exponential increase in errors and for what purpose? The useful bits such as correcting all the errors in the Excel maths functions nver get around to being fixed but they want us to buy the next version of the bloatware. The other issues for customers is that the original team that wrote the software and actually can answer your questions have long gone, their original company bought out and then sold on again. I now find freeware actually to be at least as good if not better than commercial products - the author has a real interest in his baby and just makes each upgrade better and only when there is a significant need.

3EZPayments

07-02-2007, 03:05 PM

Hello all, first I am new to this board so HIYA.:jump:

As a retired programmer, I can tell you that by the time you buy the programming software, books etc.. You can have the program written by a professional programmer for much less the cost. I got out of the programming business because I could not compete with the programmers from India and other countries, as their prices are so low.

If you want to continue to use your Excel program and need only some VBA coding you should be able to get this done very cheap. If you want it done in C++ or VB, it will still save you lots of time and money. Do a search for contract programmers (There are many group sites out there), and look through the sites and maybe even post your needs on each site and they will bid on it, check each one out and it may be just what you are looking for. Make sure you tell them you want the code also so you can add to it later if needed.

Hope that helps