Partition Magic

[Jaguar]

Just got a new PC and the Yobbo that built it was supposed to mirror my hard drive. Instead, he decided to make things easier, so he deleted my Partition Magic, which I need to operate a DOS partition, so I can run Multi-Strats.

But, Partition Magic- which I bought but never registered, due to my long-standing "no registering software" policy(except for Windows- of course, where Microsoft forces your hand, regrettably. Thanks for nothing, Chairman Bill.)

Now I have to re-install PM, and the program has inadequate documentation, and I'm going to have to waste an afternoon fiddling with it.

Wish Chairman Bill would give us a "You can run DOS programs in a separate partition" disc, when we buy XP. It wouldn't hurt him to do so.

Windows may rule, but DOS lives!

All the best,

Jaguar

[Tom]

DOS users will eventually rule the world.
Our flag will be the "blue screen of death."

[Kappa]

It's a shame that more Windows users don't have an understanding of DOS. I liken it to people who use an automatic camera, but have no understanding of f-stops and shutter speed.

[Lefty]

Jag, why the "no registering rule"?

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Originally posted by Jaguar
Now I have to re-install PM, and the program has inadequate documentation, and I'm going to have to waste an afternoon fiddling with it.

Jaguar


Yell if you get stuck, I've set up more multi-boot systems than I care to recall. Just today I finished adding a Win98 partition to an existing WinXP system (not for fun, but because HSH flies on Win98)

MP

[Jaguar]

Lefty, glad you asked. For 16 years I have been buying software in retail stores and getting: A. Inadequate Documentation B. Incompetent Telephone Support Techs C. Busy Signals D. Long Distance Charges E. Nearly Bankrupt Companies who either don't/won't answer, or say, "Sorry, we're almost closed down, there is no one here to take your call." F. The Microsoft Response, i.e., a long detailed response which is completely wrong, which has happened to me 9 times out of 10 with Chairman Bill's company.

I'm sick to death with the whole lousy tech support syndrome in the computer industry. I don't care so much for the price of software issue, if I want the disc I go to COMPUSA and buy it. But, I don't fill out the registration card and mail it, nor do I register electronically.

Rather, if I like the disc, when the newer version comes out, I just buy it, instead of trying the awkward "Fill out this card to receive the new upgrade to our "Whammo" program, which is full of great new features."

If I do fill out the card, I get besieged with endless offers for stuff I don't want, as well as phone calls. In short, more hassles. If you don't believe me, buy Laplink and register it, you'll find out.

After I bought Laplink and registered it a few years ago, the developer swarmed my mailbox like Ed and his phoney sweepstakes mailings. I felt like Britney Spears at a concert with an audience full of 12-year old boys, I couldn't get away from them.

MESSAGE TO SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS: If you want me to buy your program, fine, I'll pay your price, but give me absolutely free technical support, during normal business hours, and answer the phone when I call, and have well-trained staff on-hand, and the program up on the tech's screen.

Case in point, recently having to partition my hard drive in order to run DOS programs in another partition, I used my old PM disc.

Thinking that PM was using too many system resources, I went out and bought Partition Commander. Not only was the documentaion pathetic, but when I called the developer, they wouldn't answer the phone. After several tries, I got so mad I took the CD, the manual, and all the accompanying printed material and threw it in the trash. Another 40 bucks wasted.

Let's encourage a nationwide movement. Let's not register any retail purchase software, except Windows(we have no choice here, because if the program isn't registered, the Microsoft tech's won't permit the program's operation).

Let's force the developers to give free and competent technical support. They'll get the message.

All the best,

Jaguar

[Jaguar]

Tom, you're the best.

Let's sail ahead with my "No Registration" campaign, all flags flying, right into the enemy's guns.

Many of us have wasted alot of money over the years on inadequate and incompetent and expensive technical support.

Let's stop being the goats. Let's assert ourselves. We pay good money for the disc, okay, then we gotta get free support.

MESSAGE TO CHAIRMAN BILL: Sir, guess what? You don't want me to run my DOS programs under XP? Fine.

Just remember, I own a complete set of Windows 95 discs, a program which contains DOS extenders and which allows me to run DOS programs with little or no difficulty. The last cannon hasn't been fired in this campaign, Mr. Chairman. I'm still going to run DOS programs and you can't stop me. How do you like them apples?

DOS LIVES!

All the best,

Jaguar

[Jaguar]

MarylandPaul, thanks for your thoughtful concern.

After puzzling over this partitioning dilemma, I may- since I'm planning to buy a new laptop- decide to simply install Windows 95 in the laptop.

This would mean that I would download from BRIS as usual, into the desktop machine. Then, I would put the compressed DRF file onto a floppy and take the laptop and the floppy to OTB.

The next step, after installing the file in the Multi-Strats directory on the laptop, would be to change the file header, since MS has a weak file reading utility and actually prefers DOS downloads via PROCOMM or any DOS TCP program- directly from BRIS's computer.

Sometimes, if I'm lucky, MS will read this cadged-up import- sometimes MS won't read it, and I will not be using MS that day.

Reason I decided against the partitioning, is that I don't want to have to partition both machines, desktop and laptop, and I don't like the degradation of system resources involved.

At least my desktop, running XP, can transport, read and run stuff from a machine running 95.

Many thanks for the friendly encouragement, I believe I can find an easy way to run DOS, even if Chairman Bill doesn't like it.

All the best,

Jaguar

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Personally, I think you'd get better support if there was a nominal charge. Nothing extravagant, just enough to dissuade those who will pick up the phone before even attempting to read a "quick start" guide. Kind of like the $2 clubhouse entry fee, just enough to keep out the riff-raff.

In theory, then a software company would be able to keep support staff and wait times to a reasonable level, and stick to solving real problems rather than reading documentation to people. In theory that is....:)

FWIW, I've found Powerquest's web site to have decent support. I've solved several problems by simply reading through their online docs and white papers.

MP
(this message has been edited with EDLIN)

[Dave Schwartz]

Jag & MP,

You guys are funny. Unfortunately, you have a good point.

Personally, I am rooting for the Intell version of OS X, which rumor has will be out soon. Supposedly, Unix-based and will run Windows software. Oh, would the world be thrilled.

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[rrbauer]

Dave Schwartz wrote:

Personally, I am rooting for the Intell version of OS X, which rumor has will be out soon. Supposedly, Unix-based and will run Windows software. Oh, would the world be thrilled.


Question:
Does the OS X that runs on Apple, run Windows software? I don't think so---but I don't know because I'm not an Apple wizzard (in fact I'm not even an Apple worm!). Also, given the preponderence of MS controls, etc., available from their developer software toolsets, it would seem to be a pretty dicey leap to run Windows-platform DLL's in a non-Windows environment.

Finally, is what I'm reading on this thread saying that you can't raise a MS-DOS prompt via Start/Programs when you're running XP? I have '98 on all my stuff, so again I don't know.

[Jaguar]

Dave,

Thanks for the headsup on Intel's new OS. Nothing would be more welcome in the desktop/laptop world than a really bullet-proof UNIX flavored environment.

Chairman Bill has us by the throat and is marching us in lockstep- on a semi-annual basis, down to COMPUSA to buy new versions of hardware/software wholly incompatible with what he forced us to buy last week or last year.

The Microsoft excuse that "You wouldn't want to run an antique program in this modern, XP world, would you?", just doesn't hold water. There are many excellent older computer programs out there, some of them cost alot of money, and many have not been-and will never be- re-written for Windows.

I'd like to ask Chairman BIll, "If you owned an antique Hepplewhite sideboard worth some money, even unrestored, would you throw it on the trash pile at the city dump?"

All the best,

Jaguar

[Jaguar]

rrbauer,

Chairman Bill gradually weaned the Microsoft Code Commandos off DOS by removing more and more of the Old Stalwart from each succeeding version of Windows.

For example, 98 won't recognize certain DOS commands and won't run many DOS programs.

XP lacks the DOS extenders that allows the operating system to actually run DOS. Furthermore, DOS and Windows try to address the hardware differently.

DOS, however, lives on- and happily we can still find ways to run our good old DOS programs, in spite of Chairman Bill's scorched earth policy.

All the best,

Jaguar

[rrbauer]

Jaguar wrote:

For example, 98 won't recognize certain DOS commands and won't run many DOS programs.
Comment:
First, Thanks for the reply.
I have over 400 DOS-based programs that run fine under '98. I have none that won't run under '98.

And:
XP lacks the DOS extenders that allows the operating system to actually run DOS. Furthermore, DOS and Windows try to address the hardware differently.

Comment:
Prior to NT, 2000 and XP, Windows ran on top of DOS. Starting with NT, DOS became a "task" under Windows with the command-set emulated and I believe that the hardware interrupts that DOS might be interrogating for, need to be provided by Windows.

All of that aside, can you raise a MS-DOS prompt via the Start/Programs sequence from Windows? I'm not understanding this business about a "DOS partition" required to run DOS programs.

[rrbauer]

OK, maybe I answered my own question:

I think that the Partition issue has to do with the file system that you're using. You can't access NTFS from DOS programs. So you have to use FAT16 or FAT32 as your file system. So by using Partition Magic to create a FAT32 (for example) partition then you can run DOS programs that need to access files in that partition. (This assumes that you have NTFS as the default file system in XP).

The other issues I believe are with DOS programs that need to directly access the hardware (via "hard" memory addresses or "hard" device addresses) that Windows won't allow them to do.

Shoot, my '98 boxes work fine. I'm not changing!!

[Lefty]

Jaguar, I understand and boy, you're right. The Bible is easier to interpret than some of the Docs I see.
I'm In.

[Jaguar]

rrbauer, Correctamundo, Doctor- it's the FAT 32 situation and you stated it concisely.

What one finds out after buying the partitioning software is that you experience a degradation of system resources. Furthermore, it's a bit of a clumsy situation, and since I use Laplink, I'm gonna want my desktop and laptop to be as communication friendly to each other as possible.

I went the partition route in the past, think I'll go all Windows this time. Chairman Bill wins again, except that I'll still run DOS just to irritate him.

Just when you think it's safe to come out of the bunker, the Microsoft hit squad knocks on your door.

Thanks for the info.

All the best,

Jaguar

[Dave Schwartz]

And what makes this NTFS vs fat32 issue more difficult is that most people today have XP on a "disc image" installation that does not leave an option for disabling NTFS.

Dave

[Jaguar]

Dave, glad you explained that. That's a subtle but devastating point that alot of people could trip over.

Amazingly fragile world we're in when we run XP. DOS is so bullet proof and so robust, too bad Windows- which is so rich and complex, can't be more durable.

IBM really blew it when they abandoned their OS- 7 years ago, as the Microsoft Code Warrior multitudes swept over the battlements, carrying the PC world down into disarray and raising the Microsoft banner over the ramparts, where it continues to wave today.

But, watch out, Chairman Bill, the peasants are getting restless under your heavy-handed reign and in the distance- on the horizon, I see a thin line of DOS Warriors, Intel Special Forces, and the Brigade of UNIX Regulars, gathering in the twilight.

Who knows what the morning may bring, Chairman Bill?

All the best,

Jaguar.

[Lefty]

I've just seen an ad for a machine that features Lindows; supposed to be a combo of Win and Linux and comes with Win drivers and supposed not to crash.
I wonder if we could even run race prgms on it?
Anyone got the "skinny"

[NormanTD]

Thought I would jump into this one.

I feel the same way about Windows and DOS and all that crap MS is putting out nowdays.

I finally went to Windows 3.1 the same year Windows 95 came out.

I went to Windows 95 just before Windows 98 came out.

I bought my 2 Gz Pentium 4 in March 2002 from a company in California because everything locally only came with XP on it.

I expect this will be the last computer I ever buy and sure as hell the last MS OS I ever buy.

[PaceAdvantage]

Originally posted by Jaguar
What one finds out after buying the partitioning software is that you experience a degradation of system resources.

Jaguar, can you elaborate on this?? I've dealt with Partition Magic and the creation of multiple partitions on the same system, and can't figure out what you mean by a gradual degradation of system resources....


==PA

[Tim]

Sorry guys but this thread does't make much sense to me.

Dave wrote:
"And what makes this NTFS vs fat32 issue more difficult is that most people today have XP on a "disc image" installation that does not leave an option for disabling NTFS."

Disable a disks file system? Dave, it can't be done. Sometimes you can convert a FS and you can always replace a FS but you can't disable a FS. BTW, given a choice between NTFS and Fat32, it's NTFS every time.

Jaguar wrote:
"IBM really blew it when they abandoned their OS- 7 years ago,"

Jaguar, IBM didn't abandon the operating system, the market place abandoned it.

"What one finds out after buying the partitioning software is that you experience a degradation of system resources."

Jag, I don't know what your talking about? If you are running Partition Magic 7.0 on a Windows XP machine you shouldn't be having problems. If you are trying to run an earlier version of Partition Magic with XP then you need to upgrade. The upgrade is less than $50.

Which makes more sense, articulating your computer problem and hoping someone has an answer for you or throwing rocks at Microsoft.

Tim

[BillW]

Originally posted by Lefty
I've just seen an ad for a machine that features Lindows; supposed to be a combo of Win and Linux and comes with Win drivers and supposed not to crash.
I wonder if we could even run race prgms on it?
Anyone got the "skinny"

Lefty,

Linux itself is rock solid (I've never had it crash in 7 years of running 24 hours a day on 2 machines).

However I would advise caution trying to run MS software on an emulator and expecting improved results. While the system won't crash, the emulator will not improve the quality of the application and in most cases degrade its quality. (No silk purse out of a sows ear :rolleyes: )

Disclaimer: I have not run the linux MS emulator so do not have first hand experience with its abilities, but only advise caution from a perspective of general experience with this type of thing.

Go to www.google.com and do a search for Lindows and you will get all the information you ever cared to read.

BTW: I would expect a lot more success for older windows and DOS programs than newer stuff on Lindows.

Bill

[Jaguar]

PA, I didn't benchmark my desktop's performance before installation of partitioning software, so I am going on instinct, habit, and tired old(mine) brainstem perception, but when I was running the partition, and going back and forth from XP to DOS, it did seem that my computer was not exactly optimized, and in fact running a tick slower.

I complained to my friendly local Tech about this and he off-handedly remarked, "You don't have enough memory".

I immediately decided that I will give myself the Christmas gift of going from my present 128 meg of Ram, to 512 in a few weeks, because I always try to keep my Tech happy, no matter what.

Now, I realize that any subtle question directed to a Tech, for which their is no prospect of immediate remuneration, will receive the instant reply: "You need more memory".

This answer can be translated to mean: "You need to pay me a service charge and also to buy an over-priced memory card, which I just ripped out of another sucker's machine, after convincing the sucker to buy a new computer, because the sucker needs a maxed-out, dual-processor Athlon box and a Ge 4 card to run Unreal Tournament".

Since your computer knowledge is greater than mine, your judgment that the box shouldn't slow down is probably quite right. The answer may lie in the particular manner in which the Tech set up my desktop, or perhaps in the clumsy, un-informed way that I installed the software.

Happily, since I deleted the software, the machine is running faster than Bob Hayes running the 440.

Thanks for the input.

All the best,

Jaguar

[Jaguar]

Tim, you make some good points.

Even though, in my posts, I make clumsy attempts at irony and humor, I do try to express my frustration and anger at Microsoft's policy of rendering obsolete older Windows programs, as well as DOS discs.

There are many costly and quite useful older computer programs which should be easy to run under a more robust operating system than 95, 98, or XP.

Unfortunately, in the interviews with Chairman Gates- in different computer magazines- he has repeatedly stated that Windows must progress, and that it is important that the capability of running DOS must be taken out of the equation.

Fine, it's his company and he can do whatever he wants. But, he doesn't even offer his customers who want to run older software an option.

In a perfect world, Mr. Gates could say: "Hey, all you progressives out there, Microsoft has a great new Windows version for you, absolutely state-of-the-art, won't run any "old junk".

At the same time, he would reach out to his customer base and say: "Hey, all you slugs out there, wanting to run your dumb old programs, I have an option for you. For an extra $50 I'll send you an emulator disc that won't crash you Windows, but'll still run older Windows and DOS discs."

Microsoft just blows off alot of customers.

I am encouraged, though, by news today from Dave Schwartz that Intel is planning a sturdy UNIX-flavored OS which may be versatile enough to run a wide variety of software.

That would really be great, as I own some very productive and focused DOS programs, which ideally could just be installed and run on any new desktop or laptop that I might buy, without having to resort to gimmicks or partitions.

Who knows? Down the road, Microsoft might become more customer friendly and the DOS crazies' complaints become moot.

It seems more likely though, that another company will pick up the slack. Alot of the PC users I talk to in the computer stores want a more robust OS. Hope it happens before my family ships me off to "Happy Valley" Nursing Home, with oatmeal dribbling down my chin.

All the best,

Jaguar

[Kappa]

Happily, since I deleted the software, the machine is running faster than Bob Hayes running the 440.




Jaguar, you certainly date yourself. Maybe you need to explain to some of the young folk just who Bob Hayes was!!

[GR1@HTR]

I have Partition Magic (the commercial version of Handicapping Magic?) on this laptop. It merged my 2 hard drives together to give me more disk space. Now I have problems installing new software on this thing...I guess there is a way around or to solve the problem I have but I don't know how to fix it. But it solved my main problem and that is fine with me...

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by Kappa
Jaguar, you certainly date yourself. Maybe you need to explain to some of the young folk just who Bob Hayes was!!

He died about a month ago, I think that slowed him down considerably.

[BillW]

Ranch,

I think he's still a few ticks faster than I am in the 100. :D

Bill

[MarylandPaul@HSH]

Guys, I can be as nostalgic as most, but time does march on. Sure, DOS was great, nice and fast, provided you don't have to address more than 640k of memory.

As Dave has mentioned (in a previous thread I believe), the cause of nearly every incompatibility when using DOS programs in a WindowsXP command window are due to the "extenders" that many programs used to break through that 640k barrier. One of the more popular extenders was made by Phar Lap. Watch your DOS program start up sometime...if you see Phar Lap, it's using an extender. (Duke Nukem anyone? :D ) DOS/4G was another.

If you've got DOS programs that won't run under XP, but will run under Win95-98, I would dual boot the system. If you install 95-98 first, then add XP, it'll happily add 95-98 to it's boot menu. You can dual boot pure DOS and XP as well, it'll just take some preparation.

I don't see where the file system comes into play with regards to this discussion, other than being unable to read your NTFS partitions from a DOS partition. (hint: http://www.winternals.com - NTFS-DOS driver)

Partition Magic is simply the best code to ever fit on two floppies. I've been using it since version 2 (it's at 8.0 now), and it's never trashed a partition or destroyed data. It comes with Boot Magic, which I'm using now. If you decide to add 95-98 to an existing XP machine, Boot Magic will instantly find your XP partition and add it to the menu. Great stuff.

That said, I'm no happier with the MS monopoly than you are. I take solice in the fact that many other apparently invincible monopolies have been toppled. MS is showing such market arrogence that they're sowing the seeds of their own downfall. It'll happen, it just takes time.

Jag, RAM is as cheap as it's ever been. Load up! 512 meg for XP makes a world of difference.

MP

[CapperLou]

I don't have a partition challenge yet because I have not ventured down that road.

BUT---when I got my new computer a couple of mths back with XP nobody told me that my 3 yr old HP 712C was not compatible with XP. The people at HP were of no help and there are no new drivers to support the desktop 712C.
I used to print PP's in draft mode and saved ink. Now I cannot print in draft mode or just black and white. It's crazy. Also, some older programs will not run on new computer. So---I now use the 3 yr old computer for the old programs and the printer for both and am still trying to determine which is the the most economical all in one laser or just laser printer. MS controls me right now.

[Jaguar]

MarylandPaul, thanks for the dual-boot tip, as I've decided to go all Windows for quick and easy compatability between desktop and soon-to-be-purchased laptop. Fewer hassles, and Multi-Strats runs great from the C: prompt under Windows 95.

Hope the new Intel program Dave talked about comes to fruition, though such a robust and versatile OS seems like a dream right now.

Curious how Chairman Bill just obsoletes stuff every couple of years, and never offers an "out", that is an additional purchase disk, which would allow his customers to continue to run their old programs under an emulator or some such concept.

Microsoft is such a brilliant operation, yet they have worse customer service than the Soup Nazi.

How ironic that if a better OS is produced by a Microsoft competitor, it will be a bunch of former Microsoft customers who will be be buying it.

All the best,

Jaguar