Iran Captures Brits

[Stevie Belmont]

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1257281,00.html

[JustRalph]

they go back to their old ways. You notice it coincides with their President coming to NY.............


Remember, these are the same people (in fact the Prez of Iran was a hostage taker) that kept our hostages for 444 days............don't put anything past these idiots. If you can't recall the late 70's and 80's.......look it up please.

[skate]

was only few years ago, the did this to the brits

[lsbets]

I'm sure it's somehow Bush's fault. Hell, Cheney probably set the whole thing up. They weren't the peace loving Iranians, it was actually Halliburton workers dressed as Iranians taking hostages to give Bush an excuse to invade Iran and make more money for Cheney. :lol: :lol:

[Racer98]

Ohh. I get it now. :)

[kenwoodallpromos]

I say nuke Tehran, as usual!

[Tom]

At least remind them what a missle strike look like.
Maybe Jimmy Carter will come to the rescuse and negotiate their release. :lol:

[bigmack]

From what I've heard from someone high up in the military, they were in waters that were annexed to Iraq back in the 70's. Iran has long disputed the annexation though have peacefully coalesced with the Brits for sometime. In this case, it wasn't the the Iranian Navy that apprehended them, it was the Iranian Revolutionary Guard. The Brits have had little problem with the regular Navy.

Remember back in 94 when this happened and they blindfolded & paraded the apprehended through the streets of Tehran after they "admitted to" being in Iranian waters.

Despite what you might hear, this is a very serious affair. The Brits have the hammer down and have said in no uncertain terms that if they do that again and parade them through the streets as they did previously - All hell will break loose.

[Snag]

At least remind them what a missle strike look like.
Maybe Jimmy Carter will come to the rescuse and negotiate their release. :lol:

I'm sure they want to set down and talk about this and their nukes at the same time. Talking is very nice and I'm sure they will understand that we only want to talk. Talk is what we do best. Talk solves everything. Talk, Talk, Talk. That will do it!

If Jimmy Carter won't do it, I'll bet Jesse is waiting in the wings to do it.

[JustRalph]

http://www.pajamasmedia.com/2007/03/us_holds_300_prisoners_linked.php

General Petreaous is capturing Iranian insurgents (300 since the surge) every day and there are some theories that the Iranians want to now trade these 15 Brits for the captured insurgents..............interesting to see how this turns out

[Greyfox]

The penalty for "espionage" in Iran is death.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,21443945-31477,00.html

[Tom]

I would trade Iranian prisoners for missles - to the center of Tehran.

[betchatoo]

Shouldn't it be the British who respond to this (at least first)?

[BlueShoe]

One thing has never come come out;where was the Royal Navy?The boats were launched from a British frigate.The frigate should not have been far away,and they should have picked up the Iranians on radar.The frigate could have easily sunk the Iranian vessels.Cant help but think that if The Iron Maiden (Margerat Thatcher) were still PM the bombs would have already started falling.

[chickenhead]

"Don't talk to me about (Royal Navy) tradition. It's nothing but rum, sodomy and the lash."
Winston Churchill

"Apparently they've done away with rum and the lash."
Michael Savage last week

[Greyfox]

Shouldn't it be the British who respond to this (at least first)?

Agreed. But look what's coming in on the wires this morning.

http://cbs4.com/national/topstories_story_086055555.html

[Tom]

Help me out here....been looking all over for the libs outrage over the treatment of the prisoners.
Making the woman wera islamic garb - insulting her religion by FORCING thier satanic ritualistic costume on her.......publicly displaying them all, forcing them to read and prnt lies, most likely after beatings or threats of beatings (obviously torture).

This cruel mistreatment of the Brits must have the libs up in a snit, I just can't find it. I want to read Sec's inevitable strong stand for our allies saftey in the face of barbarian islamic torture methods.......Abu Grad mohamed style.
Show me the link to Hcap's eagerly awaited disortation against this crime against humanity, to Suff's witty retorts against the evil Iranian degradating of innocent people. Where is that thread???????

[Snag]

Tom, you are kidding aren't you?

Sec, 46, Light will never express there outrage here. It fits to well with their agenda of putting the US down. They will be the first to tell you it's the Brits problem and we have no "fight" here. BS. Any free power has a fight here. We just can't wait 444 days.

[bigmack]

This cruel mistreatment of the Brits must have the libs up in a snit, I just can't find it. I want to read Sec's inevitable strong stand for our allies saftey in the face of barbarian islamic torture methods.......Abu Grad mohamed style.Where is that thread???????
It should be any moment now.

Outrage, without a finger pointing at Washington, takes more time for the media & blogs to "feed the line".

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/005_-_Chris_Feeding_Pigs.jpg

[PaceAdvantage]

They'll come up with some way to downplay the incident, or insist that our 100,000,000 atrocities don't compare with Iran's ONE, so they don't feel the need to comment.

After all, Rosie O'D said we don't need to fear the terrorists....they are mother and fathers too! I shit you not...that's what she said....

[Tom]

BaBa Walters and Rosie........Baron Von Frankenstein and his monster.
If ever there was a wste of skin, and a lot of skin at that, is that PIG.
I'm rooting for Elisabeth to shoot her on air! :lol:


Today, The Evil Empire of Iran has threatened to put the Brits on trial.
They are obviously posturing, trying to gode us into action that would play to them. I think we should send missle into downtown Tehren, and then tell them they have one hour and do it agian, and again. This rouque nation needs to be put in it';s place once and for all. As does all of the muslem world.

It is, read my lips, a HOLY WAR.

Someone posted most Iranians like Americans...guess what.....where are they???? Hopfully at the coordinates of the day. Iranian friends are something we do not need.

Negotiate with them, says the Iraqi Surrender Group. Uh huh. Ypu......Morons.

[Show Me the Wire]

Yes the terrorist are mothers and fathers, mothers and fathers that accept payment in U.S. dollars to encourage their children to murder innocent civilians by having their children strap on a bomb and blow themselves up in densely crowded environments.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Tom-
I thought Comedy Central was back to being funny when I saw the lady wearing a Burkka and smoking a fag (Brit for cig), sounding like the leader of the group; I thought women were lower than men in persia.

[46zilzal]

Tom, you are kidding aren't you?

Sec, 46, Light will never express there outrage here. It fits to well with their agenda of putting the US down. They will be the first to tell you it's the Brits problem and we have no "fight" here. BS. Any free power has a fight here. We just can't wait 444 days.
I might be more outraged at the conditon of our public schools than this. It affects more people negatively and is worth recognition.

[Snag]

I might be more outraged at the conditon of our public schools than this. It affects more people negatively and is worth recognition.

Your post confirms my post. You would rather be "more outraged" about a US problem than what Iran has done to the Brits. Class act.

[hcap]

This is just tit for tat. So far a minor skirmish. The problem is escalation.

But who else but Faux's Billo can turn disagreement into accusations of treason and lack of patriotism. Actually he is just louder. There are many. This why most of us worry more about how exaggerating, rather small threats into colossal catastrophes. When youse guys frame historically small threats as Intergalactic existential superman versus godzilla rapture vs 12th Imam mega wars, the debate is false. But that has been the Modus Operandi. Hysteria

http://www.newshounds.us/2007/03/31/bill_oreilly_cuts_mic_of_us_colonel_ann_wright_as_ she_defends_her_service_and_stance.php

[hcap]

Btw,

This is not the first time for disputes of this sort. Of course at the time of this skirmish we were buddies with Saddam. I guess his evilness himself was not as evilness as the mullahs. Anyway at that time we let Saddam go after them. Maybe the Brits this time?

"The U.S. first claimed that the Vincennes was in international waters at the time and had fired in self-defense, fearing that the civilian jet was in fact an Iranian F-14 Tomcat fighter. Since Iranians had earlier attacked the U.S. ships in the area, the Vincennes was justified in its action.

The Iranians claimed that the Vincennes was in Iranian waters and that Flight 655 in fact just taken off, was heading away from the Vincennes, and represented no conceivable threat to the American ship.

In public and before Congressional investigators, U.S. officials from Ronald Reagan through George H.W. Bush to Admiral William Crowe swore by that official account. A host of other officers and reems of impressive documents were used to support that claim.

Eventually, the U.S. did pay compensation to Iran...but never formally apologized.

In fact, the Iranians were right. And the U.S. government had engaged in a massive coverup to prevent the truth being known. The reason? To conceal the fact that the United States had been endgaged in a clandestine war, allied with Iraq against Iran."

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/jksonc/docs/ir655-nightline-19920701.html

"Ted Koppel: Governments lie.

They do it all the time. And, much as we’d like to believe otherwise, the U.S. government is no exception.

There were times when we may have believed otherwise.

But after Vietnam and Watergate, we know better. Still, unlike most countries in the world, when our government lies to us, there tend to be consequences"
.................................................. .................................................

Maybe Billo can explain how the reagan administration were traitors by covering up big time. But those were the glory days for saint ronnie. Minor problems like Iran Contra and this coverup fade into the haze of "those were the days, eh?"

At least then we didn't nuke 'em. The present crisis is nothing compared to this incident. On a historical crisis scale of 1 to 100, the Iranian capture of the brits is around a 1 or a 2. The Vincennes situation was many times worse and could have escalated-but did not

So even Ronald Reagen did not invade Iran. I know some will wish that we did. And nuked them out of existence.

And just think there was no hysteria yet about Islamofascistcommie12thImamclashofcivilizationsrap ture-a-commin'terrorists

[chickenhead]

Iran is using British hostages as bargaining chips.

No one has invaded anyone yet. You know the best way to keep anyone from getting invaded? That would be for Iran to return these hostages to their homes. Why don't you agitate for that, seeing how concerned you are about escalation.

[46zilzal]

Your post confirms my post. You would rather be "more outraged" about a US problem than what Iran has done to the Brits. Class act.
A lot more individuals lives would be negatively effected in the school scenario than the other testosterone bravado of taunting one another.

[chickenhead]

Since hcap shared some history, I thought I would as well:

In 2004, eight British sailors were captured as they were delivering a patrol boat to the Iraqi Riverine Patrol Service. Britain described the mission as "routine" but Tehran accused them entering Iranian waters illegally.

A day later, Iran said the sailors would be put on trial, and Iranian TV broadcast video of them blindfolded and sitting on the ground. Two of them later read a statement of apology for entering Iran's territorial waters, saying it was a mistake.

The sailors later told reporters they had been mistreated and subjected to mock executions.

The eight were eventually returned to British diplomats in Tehran and flown back to Iraq. Iran initially promised to return the seized boats, but later decided to keep them for display at Tehran's War Museum. The Iranians also kept the crew's GPS equipment, and their coordinates have never been released.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/03/28/ap/world/main2620276.shtml


But who really cares, right? Who cares if British citizens are being subjected to mock executions...f em, right? Serves 'em right.

[hcap]

History, like invading Iraq?
Like shock and awe? Like Iran has been on the neocon targeting list for quite a while? History is one thing. Perspective is another.

Bargaining chips are the way the game is played. On all sides. Lets stay with chips, not bombs.

I "agitated" against invading Iraq. I am "agitating" against using this incident as a convenient reason to raise the stakes. Sort of like the 12+ convenient reasons Bush and Blair used to agitate for the Iraq war. I guess I would not be agitating as much if I had more faith that diplomacy would be used fully, and the PNAC has really lost influence and Cheney is not whispering thoughts in george's ear.

Yeah you're right no one has invaded yet. Or bombed or nuked Tehran yet. Why don't you ask Tom or Ken not to agitate against nuclear wet dreams?

Tom saysThis rouque nation needs to be put in it';s place once and for all. As does all of the muslem world.

It is, read my lips, a HOLY WAR.

Someone posted most Iranians like Americans...guess what.....where are they???? Hopfully at the coordinates of the day. Iranian friends are something we do not need.Ken says Solution
I say nuke Tehran, as usual!

[chickenhead]

Tom and Ken have both showed some concern for the British. You haven't, 46 hasn't, Sec hasn't.

What I am asking is, why do you reserve all your criticisms for the US? Tom and Ken criticize the US plenty. They criticize everyone.

Iran is torturing these prisoners (by your definition). And you say nothing.

[hcap]

Tom and Ken support genocide. Over and over. I don't. Do you?

I never applauded Iran for any of this. I wish the British soldiers a speedy release. So far this is a minor incident. But calling for nuking a few million innocents is somewhat out of proportion don't you think for capturing and holding 15 soldiers. And pointing out how we previously lied in matters of war and peace is an alert. Sort of like " remember the maine" or The gulf of tonkin.
Iran is no shinning example of innocence. But we are the ones that just invaded, occupied and nearly destroyed a country. Unfortunately the dreams of empire are not finished.

[hcap]

http://www.newyorker.com/fiction

the Bush administration is now cementing new alliances with radical Sunni organizations in order to undermine Iranian influence in Iraq. Hersh quotes Flynt Leverett, a former Bush administration National Security Council official, as saying, “This is all part of the campaign of provocative steps to increase the pressure on Iran. The idea is that at some point the Iranians will respond and then the Administration will have an open door to strike at them.”

Hersh notes that the US military has arrested and interrogated scores of Iranians within Iraq in an effort to build a case against Tehran. Clandestine US operations are ongoing in Iranian territory, and “a special planning group has been established in the offices of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, charged with creating a contingency bombing plan for Iran that can be implemented, upon orders from the President, within twenty-four hours.” This Iran planning group has recently “been handed a new assignment: to identify targets in Iran that may be involved in supplying or aiding militants in Iraq. Previously, the focus had been on the destruction of Iran’s nuclear facilities and possible regime change.”

In order for the attack to proceed, a pretext will be necessary, and the nature and strength of the pretext will reveal a great deal about the behind-the-scenes strengths and weaknesses of the various players, and give clues to how events might proceed. Here are the main possibilities:

1. Domestic terrorism. Zbigniew Brzezinski, in remarkable testimony on the first of February to the US Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, said: “A plausible scenario for a military collision with Iran involves Iraqi failure to meet the [UN] benchmarks; followed by accusations of Iranian responsibility for the failure; then by some provocation in Iraq, or a terrorist act in the US blamed on Iran; culminating in a ‘defensive’ US military action against Iran that plunges a lonely America into a spreading and deepening quagmire eventually ranging across Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, and Pakistan.”

2. A (faked?) Iranian attack on a US vessel or other asset in the Middle East. This would likewise constitute a very strong pretext for war, and would likewise be difficult to arrange—though perhaps easier than a major domestic terrorist incident. American vessels would have to provoke Iranian forces into attacking them, or an Iranian attack would have to be staged (like the Tonkin Gulf incident that served as the pretext for the expansion of American military involvement in Vietnam).

3. An Israeli attack on Iranian nuclear facilities, with an Iranian military response. This would again be a very strong pretext for US action, and there is the widely discussed historical precedent of Israel’s aerial bombardment of the Osirak nuclear facility near Baghdad in 1981 (in that instance, the French withdrew all of their technicians prior to the bombing—is Russia following the same script today?).

[Show Me the Wire]

hcap:

Where is the outcry about torture? As chickenhead stated you never criticize Iran or an other government except the U.S. Why is that?

Not agreeing is not enough, if you want your views to be taken seriously. Obviously you do not agree with U.S. policies and you show your disagreement through criticism. Criticism you refuse to apply to other governments even when you state you do not agree with what the other government is doing.

Torture is torture hcap. You showed outrage about the alleged torture conducted by the U.S. so for you to be credible you need show the same outrage against Iran.

Your failure to show outrage against Iran likens your torture position to zilzal's fake concern regarding the sanctity of life.

[hcap]

Failure to show outrage? What about genocide mongers Tom and Ken-among others?
And what torture?

[Tom]

Hcap reveals himself - he never gave a shit about torture, or anything for that matter - just Bush=Bad. Bottom line, he sings only from the playlist, and follows an agenda fed to him daily by those who control his mind. Never let it be said the Hcap was ever "for" anyone or anything. is shallow existence is to lockstep behind the Fearless Leader of his cult. Original thought would be agaisnt the grain.


And btw, I don't criticize everybody! ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

What torture? Oh you think those Brit hostages are saying those things without any coercion? I see. You fall into the zilzal category.

[hcap]

Bush=bad.
Tom=kill. Tom=nuke. Tom=genocide.
SMTW=Huh?

Torture?

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2047110,00.html

Call that humiliation?

No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings. These Iranians clearly are a very uncivilised bunch
Terry Jones
Saturday March 31, 2007
The Guardian

I share the outrage expressed in the British press over the treatment of our naval personnel accused by Iran of illegally entering their waters. It is a disgrace. We would never dream of treating captives like this - allowing them to smoke cigarettes, for example, even though it has been proven that smoking kills. And as for compelling poor servicewoman Faye Turney to wear a black headscarf, and then allowing the picture to be posted around the world - have the Iranians no concept of civilised behaviour? For God's sake, what's wrong with putting a bag over her head? That's what we do with the Muslims we capture: we put bags over their heads, so it's hard to breathe. Then it's perfectly acceptable to take photographs of them and circulate them to the press because the captives can't be recognised and humiliated in the way these unfortunate British service people are.


...As Stephen Glover pointed out in the Daily Mail, perhaps it would not be right to bomb Iran in retaliation for the humiliation of our servicemen, but clearly the Iranian people must be made to suffer - whether by beefing up sanctions, as the Mail suggests, or simply by getting President Bush to hurry up and invade, as he intends to anyway, and bring democracy and western values to the country, as he has in Iraq.

[chickenhead]

I like having guys like Tom on my side. You do realize that fear of a US military strike is a pretty strong deterant?

If your argument is that if people like you ran things, then everyone would know there would be no military response to anything no matter what, I tell you that is what a large percentage of this country worries about.

Guys like Tom are what keep the Iranians in check. A little fear in the hearts of the bad guys is not a bad thing.

[hcap]

It is obvious that the guys who brought us into this useless, needless war exaggerated threats to suit their agenda. Sorry, if you don't get that by now, my read on the next exaggerated threat-Iran, will never outrage you as it does me and others.

The fools in office is will co-opt the country into their world view. Iran is the next Hitler? I'm not buying it. Some of those that do call for genocide. How can you support that? Keeping Iran in check should be part of the carrot and stick approach that realists have used successfully. Neocons are anything but realists, and Tom is just a dull stick.

Real wars are last resorts. Jump starting war particularly under false premises is a fools errand, and your welcome to those fools who think Hitler is under their every bed. It really is time for guys like Tom to STFU. They have been wrong along.

[Tom]

I think an approriate first response would be to take out their entire navy - again! :lol:

Let them se not only our power, but our precidiosn as well.

Remember the old joke, why does the New Iraqi Navy have glass bottomed boats? So they can see the old Iraqi Navy! :lol::lol:

[chickenhead]

hcap, you are the reactionary, not me. I do not take my orders from the guys in charge, I could give a shit about the guy in charge...whereas your postures, stances, and decisions are in precise reaction to him. Everything the left has done over the past 6 years has been reactionary, and continues to be.

Again, you have high concerns about genocide when Tom talks about it, yet no concern when the President of Iran talks about it. Yet I'm the one who is off base?

Have I called for starting a war? You appear to be the one in hysterics. You appear to be the one tilting at windmills. I just want to get some British hostages home, something that obviously doesn't concern you in the least...you go so far as to conflate concern for the hostages with neocon chest thumping and imperialist dreams.

You are the one who is confused. You are so obsessed with Bush hiding under your bed you've lost your basic compass....

[chickenhead]

In Iran, hardliners called for their government to remain firm. In Tehran, about 200 Iranian youths threw rocks and firecrackers at the British Embassy in a protest on Sunday, calling for the expulsion of the country's ambassador because of the standoff.

Several dozen policemen prevented the protesters from entering the embassy compound, although a few briefly scaled a fence outside the compound's walls before being pushed back, according to an Associated Press reporter at the scene.

The protesters chanted "Death to Britain" and "Death to America" as they hurled stones into the courtyard of the embassy.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070401/ap_on_re_mi_ea/british_seized_iran


It is a little known fact that in Farsi "Death to America", depending on intonation, also translates to "Happy Easter".

[hcap]

The protesters chanted "Death to Britain" and "Death to America" as they hurled stones into the courtyard of the embassy.
Nuke the bastards. Kill all the unborn babes in their mothers wombs. Don't forget killing all of their beasts of burdens!! How dare about 200 Iranian youths say dem baaad things. Hey stones! Whoaaa.
hcap, you are the reactionary, not me. I do not take my orders from the guys in charge, I could give a shit about the guy in charge...whereas your postures, stances, and decisions are in precise reaction to him. Everything the left has done over the past 6 years has been reactionary, and continues to be.Yeah I know the left invaded Iraq. The left lied about why.
A precise reaction is exactly what's needed. That's part of what happened in the last election. Not enough.

The President of Iran is one of many posturing politicians. Is his rhetoric proof of a threat. Maybe, but not another Hitler. Iran has not invaded anyone. Bush has. Iran has to be engaged diplomatically. If you have closed the door by also posturing you are just setting us up for another adventure.
When Tom and others talk genocide they are doing just that-closing doors.


Tom
I think an approriate first response would be to take out their entire navy - again!

Let them se not only our power, but our precidiosn as well.

Remember the old joke, why does the New Iraqi Navy have glass bottomed boats? So they can see the old Iraqi Navy!
Why are we talkin' bout the Iraqi Navy? Or is that just an example of our brilliant strategy applied to the next Hitler? I suppose you mean Iran.Yeah I know change one letter and it's the same old idiot plan.
Let them se not only our power, but our precidiosn as well.
Is that supposed to be precision? :lol:

[chickenhead]

Yeah I know the left invaded Iraq.

Be careful with your sarcasm hcap...you're edging awfully close to the truth in that one.

Any of these names look familiar?

* Max Baucus (D-MT)
* Evan Bayh (D-IN)
* Joe Biden (D-DE)
* John Breaux (D-LA)
* Maria Cantwell (D-WA)
* Jean Carnahan (D-MO)
* Tom Carper (D-DE)
* Max Cleland (D-GA)
* Hillary Clinton (D-NY)
* Tom Daschle (D-SD)
* Christopher Dodd (D-CT)
* Byron Dorgan (D-ND)
* John Edwards (D-NC)
* Dianne Feinstein (D-CA)
* Tom Harkin (D-IA)
* Fritz Hollings (D-SC)
* Tim Johnson(D-SD)
* John Kerry (D-MA)
* Herb Kohl (D-WI)
* Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
* Joe Lieberman (D-CT)
* Blanche Lincoln (D-AR)
* Zell Miller (D-GA)
* Bill Nelson (D-FL)
* Ben Nelson (D-NE)
* Harry Reid (D-NV)
* Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)
* Chuck Schumer (D-NY)
* Robert Torricelli (D-NJ)

But who would have actually thought a a yes vote on "Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution" would result in....the use of force against Iraq? The audacity of Karl Rove knows no bounds, does it?

I did not support the invasion, it is too bad that the Democratic Party did.

[hcap]

Unlike the US Iran has attacked no other countries. Last time it went to war was 1980 when invaded by Saddam Hussein, who was backed and equipped by the West and the US. Meanwhile we have intervened in enough governments and engineered enough coups throughout the world, particularly in the Mid East to earn us plenty of "good will" otherwise known as blowback.



The plans for The Iraq war originated, were planned and executed by the bushies. Not every one bought it. 22 dem senators voted against. Around 45% of the democratic senators. And a much larger percentage in the house.

Your list is not complete. Many of the 126 House Democrats who spoke out and voted against the October 2002 resolution that gave President Bush authority to wage war against Iraq have turned out to be correct in their warnings about the problems a war would create. Not only that but appears that many more would have voted no if full disclosure of the manipulation of the intel was known at the time. It won primarily due to the repugs

Yeah these guys planned and orchestrated the invasion. Bull


Yeas Nays
Republican 215 6
Democratic 81 126
Independent 1
TOTALS 296 133

Here are the brave ones:

* Daniel Akaka (D-HI)
* Jeff Bingaman (D-NM)
* Barbara Boxer (D-CA)
* Robert Byrd (D-WV)
* Lincoln Chafee (R-RI)
* Kent Conrad (D-ND)
* Jon Corzine (D-NJ)
* Mark Dayton (D-MN)
* Richard Durbin (D-IL)
* Russell Feingold (D-WI)
* Robert Graham (D-FL)
* Daniel Inouye (D-HI)
* James Jeffords (I-VT)
* Edward Kennedy (D-MA)
* Patrick Leahy (D-VT)
* Carl Levin (D-MI)
* Barbara Mikulski (D-MD)
* Patty Murray (D-WA)
* Jack Reed (D-RI)
* Paul Sarbanes (D-MD)
* Debbie Stabenow (D-MI)
* Paul Wellstone (D-MN)
* Ron Wyden (D-OR)






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[46zilzal]

zilzal's fake concern regarding the sanctity of life.
Delusional as you have stated ad nauseum. Great now go thump that book.

[chickenhead]

hcap, the power structure of the left went along with the war, you know it and I know it. I think it is very unfortunate. Like I said, I wasn't in favor of this war. I've always thought Bush was a moron, and I've always thought he was a terrible president. What is:

* Max Baucus (D-MT)
* Evan Bayh (D-IN)
* Joe Biden (D-DE)
* John Breaux (D-LA)
* Maria Cantwell (D-WA)
* Jean Carnahan (D-MO)
* Tom Carper (D-DE)
* Max Cleland (D-GA)
* Hillary Clinton (D-NY)
* Tom Daschle (D-SD)
* Christopher Dodd (D-CT)
* Byron Dorgan (D-ND)
* John Edwards (D-NC)
* Dianne Feinstein (D-CA)
* Tom Harkin (D-IA)
* Fritz Hollings (D-SC)
* Tim Johnson(D-SD)
* John Kerry (D-MA)
* Herb Kohl (D-WI)
* Mary Landrieu (D-LA)
* Joe Lieberman (D-CT)
* Blanche Lincoln (D-AR)
* Zell Miller (D-GA)
* Bill Nelson (D-FL)
* Ben Nelson (D-NE)
* Harry Reid (D-NV)
* Jay Rockefeller (D-WV)
* Chuck Schumer (D-NY)
* Robert Torricelli (D-NJ)

their excuse? My theory is that they are dangerous idiots as well. Considering they voted yes for:

"Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution"

and were subsequently shocked when military force was used in Iraq....wouldn't you say they are dangerous idiots as well? No, of course not. Chances are you are going to vote for one of them for President in a little while.

You can see why I have problems understanding...

[hcap]

The power structure of the democratic party, yes. The power structure of the left no. They had very little say. Except for the house, and some in the senate. Their influence was minimal. Remember we were attacked and everyone rallied round the president. Who knew he would take unity and support we had throughout the world and trample our real chances of controlling terrorism, and maybe catching the guys that attacked us?

The left has only recently had the balls to speak up. Most of the left has been energized by the obvious mendacity of the assh**les in office. And not only the left

The war party has been dominant for quite a while. Bush must have been the model for the fable, "The Emperors New Clothes" cause that was the model until a short time before the last election. The emperor only has so much as a pair of socks left and only some still think he has any credibility.( except for what appears a confused majority on this board ) :lol:

The absolute failure of the bush doctrine is more than just failure of a little man. It is a drastic departure from the school of foreign policy realism that had got us thru the cold war and other crisis, dealing with real threats to our very existence. All administrations practiced diplomacy as well rattling sabers.
How can anyone trust these incompetents any more after what we have seen of their past performances?? Now even some enlightened republicans are jumping ship.

Will I vote for an idiot? Do I have a choice? :lol:

[Secretariat]

The absolute failure of the bush doctrine is more than just failure of a little man. It is a drastic departure from the school of foreign policy realism that had got us thru the cold war and other crisis, dealing with real threats to our very existence. All administrations practiced diplomacy as well rattling sabers.

How can anyone trust these incompetents any more after what we have seen of their past performances?? Now even some enlightened republicans are jumping ship.

Will I vote for an idiot? Do I have a choice? :lol:

No kidding. Appears Bush's 2004 chief strategist has had more than he can stomach.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070401/pl_nm/bush_dowd_dc

Bush ex-strategist says loses faith in president
By Randall Mikkelsen

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The chief strategist of George W. Bush's 2004 re-election campaign said he had lost faith in the U.S. president over Iraq and other issues, in a high-level rupture of Bush's famously loyal inner circle.

[chickenhead]

if you say the left, but don't mean the democrats...you mean the:

"Wouldn't it be great if the DD had to hold a bake sale to buy a B-52" crowd?

They are the realpolitikers I'm looking for? Doesn't seem real likely. I've been around some anti-war demonstrations over the past few years...seems like a lot of them wish the cold war had gone the other way...not exactly what I'm looking for.

Is there yet another left besides the democrats, and besides that one?

[Show Me the Wire]

Delusional as you have stated ad nauseum. Great now go thump that book.


What does this attempted declaratory statement mean? What book should I thump? A book on logical thought and critical thinking?

[Show Me the Wire]

Oh, I forgot. I had seen a horse with Zilzal as the dam's sire. It was a confirmed loser and easy toss out.

[Greyfox]

Will I vote for an idiot? Do I have a choice? :lol:

After hundreds of postings and thousands and thousands of words , finally, a truely brilliant comment.


P.S.
You really are thorough hcap.
Obviously well versed on the arguments that you undertake.
If you are not being paid to develop them, well...you should be.

Let it be said, that I neither agree or disagree with you.
I enjoy the depth of research, and tenacity that you put into your postings. .Or is it obsessiveness? Either way, you've forced me to think and I've learned from you. Thank you.

Humor appreciated in this corner.

[Indulto]

if you say the left, but don't mean the democrats...you mean the:

"Wouldn't it be great if the DD had to hold a bake sale to buy a B-52" crowd?

They are the realpolitikers I'm looking for? Doesn't seem real likely. I've been around some anti-war demonstrations over the past few years...seems like a lot of them wish the cold war had gone the other way...not exactly what I'm looking for.

Is there yet another left besides the democrats, and besides that one?C-HD,
When did you switch from left-leaning to right-reclining? Was it before or after the last avatar change? ;)

May I assume DD means DoD?

[hcap]

Greyfox,

Yes, obsessiveness. I used to be more obsessive, but after being accused of being a paid shill for every one from the DU, to the shreds of the Nazi party, I decided to lay low for a while. Don't wanna be too obvious. Besides, the pay stinks :bang:

Thanks

[chickenhead]

C-HD,
When did you switch from left-leaning to right-reclining? Was it before or after the last avatar change? ;)

I consider myself a moderate. But honestly the obsession and hysteria of the left towards Bush has been such a turnoff it has had a big effect on my relations with them. Until he came along I thought they were on more of an even keel...but unfortunately that was probably due to the Democrats being in charge...and in comparison to the Repubs during that time.

I have also become quite suspicious that the tent on the left is a might bit smaller than they claim, if you don't swear the party line up and down they don't really have a lot of use for you.

[The Judge]

In post #40 you stated that the threat of a US militray strike is a strong deterant . This is true but it doesn't go far enough. Only a fool would want to mess around with the USofA because the US has shown that they will attack your country if they choose. So why would countries still defy the US?

If you know this and you don't even run a country don't you think that people that run countries know who they are dealing with? Of course they know. I say this country forces other countries to defy them by making it just to hard to get along with USof A.

Why did Cuba, VietNam. Iraq, North Korea,Russia,Iran,Chile,Panama,Granada, Nicaragua, and now Venezuela,just name a few stand up to such a powerful country when they could have just played along and the leaders could have become filty rich? Do you think that may be these countries had no choice but to stand up. You see its hard be friends with the US unless you are willing to let US companies come in and pay your workers low wages and let those same companies exploit your natural resouces. By exploit I mean pay many times less then those resouces are really worth.

[chickenhead]

Judge -- I'm talking strictly military terms. What Venezuela is doing economically is fine by me, they can have whatever system they want.

I don't want countries like North Korea, Iran, etc having nuclear weapons. They can run whatever economic system they like. They can keep USA corps out. That does put me somewhat at odds with US policy, but that is my rational.
I don't care if a country is friendly or not, or to what degree.

But I favor no new entrants to the nuclear club. That is my concern #1. IF it comes down to blowing up reactors to stop it, I favor that.

[Tom]

In post #40 you stated that the threat of a US militray strike is a strong deterant . This is true but it doesn't go far enough. Only a fool would want to mess around with the USofA because the US has shown that they will attack your country if they choose. So why would countries still defy the US?



Because the country has been "pussified" by Mutha, Pelosi, Kennedy, Kerry, and that bunch of jihadist sympathizers, that's why.

[Lefty]

hcap says Iran has attacked no other country. Guess he doesn't consider kidnapping an attack. I do.

[Tom]

Remember the hostages in 1979????
What does he call that one?
They are still at it.
They are animals, have no respect for law, and need a good lesson in retribution. Just as we should have bombed the hell out of Bahgdad the first time that nitwit SH fired onone of our planes.

[Show Me the Wire]

Attacking a foreign embassy is an act of war. Jimmy had every right under international law to use military assets against Iran in 1979. But we all know his legacy of failure as president.

[Show Me the Wire]

I consider myself a moderate. But honestly the obsession and hysteria of the left towards Bush has been such a turnoff it has had a big effect on my relations with them. Until he came along I thought they were on more of an even keel...but unfortunately that was probably due to the Democrats being in charge...and in comparison to the Repubs during that time.

I have also become quite suspicious that the tent on the left is a might bit smaller than they claim, if you don't swear the party line up and down they don't really have a lot of use for you.

You are correct about the tent, but the tent has enough room for war profiteers. Soros and Feinstein fit comfortably inside.

[JustRalph]

I read today that there were two frigates "covering" the Brits who were taken hostage and they were told not to fire on the Iranians.

Now they are stuck. Once again, failing to pull the trigger results in the Brits begging Iran for release of the their troops. Nobody understands the "lawful" use of force anymore. We have too many diplomats and not enough leaders willing to pull the trigger when appropriate.

[boxcar]

Your post confirms my post. You would rather be "more outraged" about a US problem than what Iran has done to the Brits. Class act.

And one is led to wonder whatever happened to that big U.S. education priority/problem when the Libs were, including 46er, all over the U.S. like files on cow manure, about the supposed atrocities at Hotel Gitmo and the scandal at Abu Ghraib? Back then, virutally all Libs' priorities and concerns were focused on the U.S. But when the U.S. or one its allies are on the short end of the stick, one is very hard pressed to hear hardly a peep out of the mainstream media, the U.N., or our pinko, commie-lovin', self-professed "patriots". And when you press Libs on this, they'll conveniently come up with all kinds of more important problems that need solving -- problems, of course, that were created by this evil capitalisitic, freedom-loving country. After all, we also know that Libs being such fine, upstanding, principled human beings [they think they are] would never stoop so low to bad-mouth any of their their anti-West soul mates.

Boxcar

[boxcar]

Tom and Ken support genocide. Over and over. I don't. Do you?

I never applauded Iran for any of this

Really? And we were supposed to take your silence (up until now) as what? Tacit condemnation of their aggressive behavior? :rolleyes:

I wish the British soldiers a speedy release

You know what you should do 'cap? Get together with your fellow peaceniks, and code pink groups, etc. to rally and demonstrate in D.C. against Iran's aggressive actions and its in inhumane treatment of those 15 hostages.

Until then, your sympathetic sentiments ring awfully hollow.

Boxcar

[Humph]

I read today that there were two frigates "covering" the Brits who were taken hostage and they were told not to fire on the Iranians.

Now they are stuck. Once again, failing to pull the trigger results in the Brits begging Iran for release of the their troops. Nobody understands the "lawful" use of force anymore. We have too many diplomats and not enough leaders willing to pull the trigger when appropriate.


Have you thought of the consequences had the Brits going in " all guns blazing " ? Who knows where this episode would have escalated to ?

It appears now that the diplomatic channels are working and the matter should be resolved without the need for bodybags.

[JustRalph]

Have you thought of the consequences had the Brits going in " all guns blazing " ? Who knows where this episode would have escalated to ?

It appears now that the diplomatic channels are working and the matter should be resolved without the need for bodybags.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...........

I saw Winston Churchill III on televison today and he said that not protecting those troops during the initial encounter did a great disservice to the British Navy. They have announced to the world that they have to call home for permission to respond to anything and they won't get it anyway.

They look weak and the Iranian's now believe that they have carte blanche when it comes to taking hostages in the future.

I agree with Churchill. They look weak and without recourse. This should have ended with Iranian boats floating upside down in the water and the Brits asking Iran where to drop the bodies off............

Now they are begging the Iranians to release the troops and they are embarrassed daily by the video shots of their troops caving in and performing skits of treason to save their lives.

Whatever happen to Name, Rank and serial number? That is what I want to know.

[Lefty]

JR, you are right. If the British Govt could have mustered the courage to blow those Iranians out of the water it would have sent a clear msg of strength. Instead the msg is weakness.

[Humph]

Start a full-scale military conflict over 15 personnnel who just happened to have strayed into hostile waters - a place where they shouldn't have been ?

Perhaps I have watched enough cowboy movies.

[boxcar]

Start a full-scale military conflict over 15 personnnel who just happened to have strayed into hostile waters - a place where they shouldn't have been ?

Perhaps I have watched enough cowboy movies.

Hah...another sympathizer with the barbarians. Iran's word is better than the Brits'. Why don't you just pack up your bags and leave?

Boxcar

[Lefty]

humph, looks like you're another that takes the wrong side. If they were not in Iran's waters, and unlike you I take the Brits acct over Iran's acct, they should have protected themselves. But as Col Hunt says, everybody is too afraid of criticism from the media and the far left and have constrained our military(this includes Allies such as Britain)from winning military battles they could easily win.

[46zilzal]

Hah...another sympathizer with the barbarians. Iran's word is better than the Brits'. Why don't you just pack up your bags and leave?



Reminds me of the overtly testosteronish clowns in high school just "itching" for a fight.

[Lefty]

46, comes a time to fight. When you are confronted with being hijacked and kidnapped, that's the time.
I had many fights with bullies in school and they soon left me alone.

[The Judge]

Thats exactly what other counties are saying about the US. Vietnam fought the bully and now so is everybody else, better go and pick on some small island for United Fruit Company.

[Tom]

What area yousmoking?
Are you saying WE were the bad guys in Viet Nam and Iraq?
Why do you find is so amusing to constantly belittle our country?
Does it make you feel all warm and comfy inside? Do you feel good sticking up for murdering barbarians and tyrants?

[46zilzal]

Thats exactly what other counties are saying about the US. Vietnam fought the bully and now so is everybody else, better go and pick on some small island for United Fruit Company.
lert's attack Genada again. That was a tough foe vanquished!!

[The Judge]

Once again we haven't learn squat from the past if people want democracy they know how to get it ,they know about the Revolutionay War. As a matter of fact school children in other counties and people in other counties in general know more about US history then those born here. If its so good we don't have to force it down other peoples throats they will come looking for it.

Stop communism in Vietnam, do you still believe that crap ,bring democracy to Vietnam, South Bikki Island, the coast of Figi , North Northland what non-sense. Lets send in the bombs, lets send in the ships, lets send in the infants (infantry)just don't send me. Don't have a draft.

You know who doesn't want a war,who don't want to send in the troops or shoot off a missile, the men in uniform thats who.

[The Judge]

Wasn't that war wage to free some medical students from the US who were so academically challenged that they couldn't get in a US medical school, so this small island took them in and gave them an education. For their troubles the US use these students safety as a reseaon to over throw the entire government.

The students were then bribed by being given slots in american medical schools. I wonder how they turned out?

[hcap]

Humph
Start a full-scale military conflict over 15 personnnel who just happened to have strayed into hostile waters - a place where they shouldn't have been ?

Perhaps I have watched enough cowboy movies.Hi Humph. Welcome to the hard-core hard-head remainder of the 30% never say die bush approval society.

Originally Posted by boxcar
Hah...another sympathizer with the barbarians. Iran's word is better than the Brits'. Why don't you just pack up your bags and leave?
Yeah you tell 'em boxhead. Better dead than red!

[46zilzal]

Originally Posted by boxcar
Yeah you tell 'em boxhead. Better dead than red!

I thought they beat those guys.

[Greyfox]

I
Once again, failing to pull the trigger results in the Brits begging Iran for release of the their troops. Nobody understands the "lawful" use of force anymore. .

Good point. If I were one of the captured Brits, I would feel terribly betrayed by the destroyer for not providing defense.
At heart I believe that World Peace starts with me. However, there comes a time when you just don't allow "Caesar to take what he thinks belongs to Caesar." You have to stand up and fight.
The decision not to do that brings shame on the entire British fleet.
Had they provided protection, Iran would have been flapping their lips today in a different manner.

[46zilzal]

Wasn't that war wage to free some medical students from the US who were so academically challenged that they couldn't get in a US medical school, so this small island took them in and gave them an education. For their troubles the US use these students safety as a reseaon to over throw the entire government.

Don't think many were as challenged as were not the beneficiary of nepotism.

[hcap]

Any one remember this? Way back when our glorious leedur was jest-a-practisin' his cowboy presidentin' he sort of got of to a squeaky start...

Sunday Morning News
U.S.-China Airplane Collision Believed to be Accidental
Aired April 1, 2001 - 9:52 a.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: One spokesperson for the U.S. Navy in Hawaii now says that the U.S.-China collision today was, apparently, an accident.

For the Pentagon perspective, let's turn now to our Patty Davis.

Patty, what do you have for us?

PATTY DAVIS, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pentagon officials say that they are, first and foremost, concerned about the safety of the crew of this EP-3. They want that crew returned back to the United States.

It had to make an emergency landing, of course, after it was intercepted and there was damage It made an emergency landing down at a Chinese Air Force base. Also, we're told by the military that one of the Chinese planes also landed at that base.

.....Now, as Patty said in her report, earlier the U.S. Pacific Command described what happened, basically saying that two Chinese F-8 fighters approached the American craft. There was a collision. They made contact and there was enough damage to the American aircraft to force it to land in the People's Republic of China on Hainan Island.

.................................................. ....................

Of course even after the Chinese evil doers BOARDED the plane containing all kinds of secret high tech survelience equipment, bush did nothing for the eleven days the airmen were held.

How come no nukes youse guys????????

[46zilzal]

Does the phrase "We're looking for any excuse" ring a bell?

Up there with Remember the Maine, Gulf of Tokin etc.


Blow it out of proportion, wrap yourself in the old red white and blue, then sacrifice a bunch of gung ho young men...

[hcap]

Major Pussification Alert!!!...

Iran, Britain resolute on diplomatic crisis solution
Tue, 03 Apr 2007 11:29:08
Britain has agreed to Iran's offer to resolve the issue of British captives through diplomatic talks, said a spokesman for Britain's Foreign Office.

"We will review Ali Larijani's recommendation over mutual talks to find a diplomatic solution to solve the problem", AFP reported him as saying from London.
.................................................. .......................

Also new astounding definition of The 5th Grader School of Foreign Policy Dynamics as defined by The Institute for Advanced Extremely Super Duper Higher Mathematics Conflict Resolution Set Theory...

Lefty 46, comes a time to fight. When you are confronted with being hijacked and kidnapped, that's the time.
I had many fights with bullies in school and they soon left me alone.

Or the inverse proportion of wedgies to nuggies equals megatonage
squared.

:sleeping: :sleeping:

Grown men fixated at the 5th grade schoolyard dynamics period in their lives control our foreign policy. Lefty agrees and eloquently makes their case.

HaHa!

http://www.seomoz.org/images/upload/simpsons_nelson_haha2.jpg

[Tom]

Man, you guys are a gas. You whine aobut the casualties in Iraq and then advocate throwing them to the wolves.
If I ever agree with one of these nuts, get Ralph to shoot me! :liar:

[Greyfox]

Are the times changing?
I've already said above that the British destroyer and accompanying helicopters should have taken care of this at the start.
They didn't.
But what about the captured seamen.
What happened to the old Name, Rank, Serial number? and nothing more.
I can see one or two of them submitting, but 15? Were they properly prepared for this type of encounter?

[PaceAdvantage]

Start a full-scale military conflict over 15 personnnel who just happened to have strayed into hostile waters - a place where they shouldn't have been ?

Perhaps the UK ought to obtain a couple of "game-day" tapes from Israel.

I tell you ladies and gents, some of the philosophy spouted in this thread is enough to make one's hair stand on end....

Kiss your asses goodbye if this ever becomes mainstream thought.

[lsbets]

Wasn't that war wage to free some medical students from the US who were so academically challenged that they couldn't get in a US medical school, so this small island took them in and gave them an education. For their troubles the US use these students safety as a reseaon to over throw the entire government.

The students were then bribed by being given slots in american medical schools. I wonder how they turned out?

One of them is my kids pediatrician and a good friend of mine. Incredibly smart, generous and succesful guy who spends a lot of time giving back to the community. His MD is from St. George's, so I don't think he was bribed into an American medical school. I also don't think anyone who knows him would say he was academically challenged in any way.

[Lefty]

What happened to the Geneva Convention. the leftwing socialist on this board and in Congress constantly accusin the U.S. of violating the Geneva Convention but nary a word about Iran actually doing it. Sometimes i really do wonder whose side they'ren, i really do.

[46zilzal]

One of them is my kids pediatrician and a good friend of mine. Incredibly smart, generous and succesful guy who spends a lot of time giving back to the community. His MD is from St. George's, so I don't think he was bribed into an American medical school. I also don't think anyone who knows him would say he was academically challenged in any way.
Way back when I was a furniture mover to pay for school, I moved a physician who was then the head of the admissions board at Stanford. I asked why he resigned and he answered very quickly:" I can't stand turning down so many qualified students. I just hope they have a chance to catch on somewhere else."

Just like DeBeers does with diamonds, limiting the numbers allowed to become doctors keeps their asking price higher.

[Lefty]

jeez, 46, sounds a lot like affirmative action. But I digress and creep; just couldn't help myself...

[Tom]

What happened to the Geneva Convention. the leftwing socialist on this board and in Congress constantly accusin the U.S. of violating the Geneva Convention but nary a word about Iran actually doing it. Sometimes i really do wonder whose side they'ren, i really do.

Lefty, lately, I never wonder anymore - it is so obvious whose side some here are one. But I think it is a good thing - I sure do not want them on my side.
Could you imagine finding yourself in a foxhole, enemy advancing, and hcap has your back? :eek::eek::eek::faint:

[46zilzal]

Lefty, lately, I never wonder anymore - it is so obvious whose side some here are one. But I think it is a good thing - I sure do not want them on my side.
Could you imagine finding yourself in a foxhole, enemy advancing, and hcap has your back?

I doubt he would ever be in a fox hole for you to put that to the test.

I don't understand why so many people cannot get it through their skull: "OFTEN people are on NEITHER side when they are both wrong."

[Tom]

:confused::confused::confused: Are you betting on "push me/pull me's" again?

Wassat mean?

[Lefty]

Lefty, lately, I never wonder anymore - it is so obvious whose side some here are one. But I think it is a good thing - I sure do not want them on my side.
Could you imagine finding yourself in a foxhole, enemy advancing, and hcap has your back? :eek::eek::eek::faint:
Or 46, or lbj, Tom, oh my God!

[Lefty]

I doubt he would ever be in a fox hole for you to put that to the test.

I don't understand why so many people cannot get it through their skull: "OFTEN people are on NEITHER side when they are both wrong."
Neither side. Now that's just stupid. If you're saying we're as bad as our enemy then you are part of the problem and that makes you the enemy.
I'd be in a foxhole with Tom, JR, lsbets and a host of others on this board if it came to that and be proud to be thee.

[delayjf]

Saddam Hussein, who was backed and equipped by the West and the US

Wrong Hcap, they got practically all their weapons from the Soviet Block. And I read that story and will have to fly the BS flag on their claim that they got the tapes from the Vincennes. Those would have been classified and never released to Newsweek or Ted Koppel.

[46zilzal]

Wrong Hcap, they got practically all their weapons from the Soviet Block. And I read that story and will have to fly the BS flag on their claim that they got the tapes from the Vincennes. Those would have been classified and never released to Newsweek or Ted Koppel.
And Rummy offering all that aid and equipment like anything that does not FIT the story is just a pipe dream huh?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,866942,00.html

On November 1 1983, the secretary of state, George Shultz, was passed intelligence reports of "almost daily use of CW [chemical weapons]" by Iraq.

However, 25 days later, Ronald Reagan signed a secret order instructing the administration to do "whatever was necessary and legal" to prevent Iraq losing the war.

In December Mr Rumsfeld, hired by President Reagan to serve as a Middle East troubleshooter, met Saddam Hussein in Baghdad and passed on the US willingness to help his regime and restore full diplomatic relations.

Mr Rumsfeld has said that he "cautioned" the Iraqi leader against using banned weapons. But there was no mention of such a warning in state department notes of the meeting.

Howard Teicher, an Iraq specialist in the Reagan White House, testified in a 1995 affidavit that the then CIA director, William Casey, used a Chilean firm, Cardoen, to send cluster bombs to use against Iran's "human wave" attacks.

A 1994 congressional inquiry also found that dozens of biological agents, including various strains of anthrax, had been shipped to Iraq by US companies, under licence from the commerce department.

or http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

[46zilzal]

Where does the Soviet Union appear as a supplier?
http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html
"One study lists 207 firms from 21 countries that contributed to Iraq’s non-conventional
weapons program during and after the Iran-Iraq war. E.g., West German (86); British (18);
Austrian (17); French (16); Italian (12); Swiss (11); and American (18)."

"Items sent from the U.S. during the Reagan and Bush Administrations that helped Iraq’s non-conventional weapons programs and that were shipped to known military industrial facilities include:

* Computers to develop ballistic missiles and nuclear weapons; machine tools and lasers to extend ballistic missile range; graphics terminals to design and analyze rockets;West Nile Fever virus, a known potential BW agent, sent by the U.S. government’s Centers for Disease Control (CDC); the agents for botulism, tetnus, and anthrax."

or http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp

[46zilzal]

or from another source:
http://www.counterpunch.org/dawoody06082004.html
Following further high-level policy review, Ronald Reagan issued National Security
Decision Directive (NSDD-114) on November 26, 1983, concerning U.S. policy
toward the Iran-Iraq war. The directive reflected the administration's priorities,
calling for heightened regional military cooperation to defend oil facilities, and
measures to improve U.S. military capabilities in the Persian Gulf.

Soon thereafter, Donald Rumsfeld, the head of the multinational pharmaceutical
company G.D. Searle & Co. at the time, was dispatched to the Middle East as a
presidential envoy. His December 1983 tour of regional capitals included Baghdad,
where he was to establish "direct contact between an envoy of President Reagan and
President Saddam Hussein." Rumsfeld met with Saddam, and the two discussed
regional issues of mutual interest, shared enmity toward Iran and Syria, and
discussed U.S efforts to find alternative routes to transport Iraq's oil. Rumsfeld
made no reference to Iraq's chemical weapons.

The Reagan administration allowed the Iraqis to buy a wide variety of "dual use"
equipment and materials from American suppliers. The shopping list included
a computerized database for Saddam's security police, helicopters to transport
Iraqi officials, television cameras for video surveillance applications, chemical-analysis
equipment for the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission (IAEC), and numerous shipments
of "bacteria/fungi/protozoa" to the IAEC. The bacteria cultures were used to make
biological weapons, including anthrax.

A US Senate inquiry in 1995 accidentally revealed that during the Iran-Iraq War the
United States had sent Iraq samples of all the strains of germs used by Iraq to make
biological weapons. The strains were sent by the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention and the American Type Culture Collection to the same sites in Iraq that
UN weapons inspectors later determined were part of Iraq's biological weapons program.

[Greyfox]

A US Senate inquiry in 1995 accidentally revealed that during the Iran-Iraq War the United States had sent Iraq samples of all the strains of ge
rms used by Iraq to make biological weapons. The strains were sent by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the American Type Culture Collection to the same sites in Iraq that UN weapons inspectors later determined were part of Iraq's biological weapons program.

So you're saying 46 Z
1. The U.S. gave these biological strains to Iraq.
2. The U.N. inspectors later found them.
Then they were "accidentally" uncovered in an inquiry ( which is why we have inquiries).

Supposing, that the U.S., in a previous administration, did what you say,
and a new administration takes over. They know that those strains are there.
Then, simply stated, Jihadist idiots on their way to umpteen virgins in heaven or whatever, crashes planes into American buildings.
Wouldn't the new administration be stupid not to do something about attempting to retrieve those "biological strains?"
You've just provided "ammo" re: W.M.D. in Iraq.
And until now I've had my doubts.
I know that you are a "learned" man. But some times your arguments defeat themselves.

[46zilzal]

You don't know much about bacteriology do you? Once propagated, millions and millions of the offspring could be sequestered all over the place and never be found.

Anthrax alone (in goes into a quiescent stage via spores) can last freeze dried for a very long time in suspened status.

[46zilzal]

http://www.democracynow.org/static/rumsfeldcloset.shtml


Throughout the period that Rumsfeld was Reagan's Middle East envoy,
Iraq was frantically purchasing hardware from American firms, empowered
by the White House to sell. The buying frenzy began immediately after Iraq
was removed from the list of alleged sponsors of terrorism in 1982. According
to a February 13, 1991 Los Angeles Times article:

"First on Hussein's shopping list was helicopters -- he bought 60 Hughes helicopters
and trainers with little notice. However, a second order of 10 twin-engine Bell "Huey"
helicopters, like those used to carry combat troops in Vietnam, prompted congressional
opposition in August, 1983... Nonetheless, the sale was approved."

In 1984, according to The LA Times, the State Department - in the name of "increased
American penetration of the extremely competitive civilian aircraft market"-pushed
through the sale of 45 Bell 214ST helicopters to Iraq. The helicopters, worth some
$200 million, were originally designed for military purposes. The New York Times
later reported that Saddam "transferred many, if not all [of these helicopters] to his
military."

Eight years later, Donald Rumsfeld signed on to an "open letter" to President Clinton,
calling on him to eliminate "the threat posed by Saddam." It urged Clinton to "provide
the leadership necessary to save ourselves and the world from the scourge of Saddam
and the weapons of mass destruction that he refuses to relinquish."

In 1984, Donald Rumsfeld was in a position to draw the world's attention to Saddam's
chemical threat. He was in Baghdad as the UN concluded that chemical weapons had
been used against Iran. He was armed with a fresh communication from the State
Department that it had "available evidence" Iraq was using chemical weapons. But Rumsfeld said nothing.

Washington now speaks of Saddam's threat and the consequences of a failure to act.
Despite the fact that the administration has failed to provide even a shred of concrete
proof that Iraq has links to Al Qaeda or has resumed production of chemical or
biological agents, Rumsfeld insists that "the absence of evidence is not evidence
of absence."

[Greyfox]

You don't know much about bacteriology do you? Once propagated, millions and millions of the offspring could be sequestered all over the place and never be found.

Anthrax alone (in goes into a quiescent stage via spores) can last freeze dried for a very long time in suspened status.

46Z You're absolutely brilliant. And if that happens we wouldn't need to know much about anthrax. We' d all be dead.
Of course you could still post here to tell us about that....:lol:
We'd be gone. But in your basement shelter stocked with "spam and water bottles, you'd prove zilly zallying was right.... or more likely left.



I repeat:

"Wouldn't the new administration be stupid not to do something about attempting to retrieve those "biological strains?"
You've just provided "ammo" re: W.M.D. in Iraq.

[46zilzal]

"Wouldn't the new administration be stupid not to do something about attempting to retrieve those "biological strains?"You've just provided "ammo" re: W.M.D. in Iraq.
How would they do that? In regards to WMD I have no idea what you are trying to get at. It is one thing to have biologicals and it is a very different thing to be able to disperse them as a weapon.

If I were poisoning anyone, I would lace some of their food with a naturally found, uncommon, but not rare, thing like Clostridium botulinum. Untraceable, naturally occuring but limited in distribution. Another would be an injection of a small amount of saliva into a major joint: infection city in no time.

To make someone really sick and miserable some Staphalotoxin would do the trick!

[boxcar]

Reminds me of the overtly testosteronish clowns in high school just "itching" for a fight.

What's the matter, 46er -- the term "barbarians" offends you because you think your Persian soul mates are getting screwed by the big bad West?

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

What's the matter, 46er -- the term "barbarians" offends you because you think your Persian soul mates are getting screwed by the big bad West?



Haven't taken sides. Think what you want.

[Greyfox]

46z. You're scarey. You said:

"If I were poisoning anyone, I would lace some of their food with a naturally found, uncommon, but not rare, thing like Clostridium botulinum. Untraceable, naturally occuring but limited in distribution. Another would be an injection of a small amount of saliva into a major joint: infection city in no time."


I admire your knowledge. But not your answers.
The bottom line is you never answered the question that I asked.
I repeat, in the context of the information that you presented us with:

"Wouldn't the new administration be stupid not to do something about attempting to retrieve those "biological strains?"

[46zilzal]

"Wouldn't the new administration be stupid not to do something about attempting to retrieve those "biological strains?"
That would be impossible so answering the question falls into the same category as much as I would like to call this adminsitration stupid.

[Greyfox]

Okay 46z have it your way,
but by "answering" the question, as you have, somehow you've unwittingly put
yourself in the category that you mentioned.

[hcap]

delayjfQuote:
Saddam Hussein, who was backed and equipped by the West and the US


Wrong Hcap, they got practically all their weapons from the Soviet Block. And I read that story and will have to fly the BS flag on their claim that they got the tapes from the Vincennes. Those would have been classified and never released to Newsweek or Ted Koppel.
From the National Security Archives. Declassified and through the FOIA..

Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein:
The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82

Edited by Joyce Battle

February 25, 2003



http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/handshake300.jpg
Shaking Hands: Iraqi President Saddam Hussein greets Donald Rumsfeld, then special envoy of President Ronald Reagan, in Baghdad on December 20, 1983.


Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein:
The U.S. Tilts toward Iraq, 1980-1984

National Security Archive Electronic Briefing Book No. 82

Edited by Joyce Battle



http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/


Document 61: United States District Court (Florida: Southern District) Affidavit. "United States of America, Plaintiff, v. Carlos Cardoen [et al.]" [Charge that Teledyne Wah Chang Albany Illegally Provided a Proscribed Substance, Zirconium, to Cardoen Industries and to Iraq], January 31, 1995.

Former Reagan administration National Security Council staff member Howard Teicher says that after Ronald Reagan signed a national security decision directive calling for the U.S. to do whatever was necessary to prevent Iraq's defeat in the Iran-Iraq war, Director of Central Intelligence William Casey personally led efforts to ensure that Iraq had sufficient weapons, including cluster bombs, and that the U.S. provided Iraq with financial credits, intelligence, and strategic military advice. The CIA also provided Iraq, through third parties that included Israel and Egypt, with military hardware compatible with its Soviet-origin weaponry.

This affidavit was submitted in the course of one of a number of prosecutions, following Iraq's invasion of Kuwait, of U.S. companies charged with illegally delivering military, dual-use, or nuclear-related items to Iraq. (In this case, a Teledyne affiliate was charged will illegally selling zirconium, used in the manufacture of explosives, to the Chilean arms manufacturer Carlos Industries, which used the material to manufacture cluster bombs sold to Iraq.) Many of these firms tried to defend themselves by establishing that providing military materiel to Iraq had been the actual, if covert, policy of the U.S. government. This was a difficult case to make, especially considering the rules of evidence governing investigations involving national security matters.

Source: Court case
.................................................. ........................................

Document 24: Department of State, Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs Information Memorandum from Jonathan T. Howe to George P. Shultz. "Iraq Use of Chemical Weapons," November 1, 1983.

Officials from the State Department's Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs tell Secretary Shultz that the department has additional information confirming Iraq's "almost daily" use of chemical weapons. They note, "We also know that Iraq has acquired a CW production capability, presumably from Western firms, including possibly a U.S. foreign subsidiary." The issue is to be added to the agenda for an upcoming National Security Council meeting, at which measures to assist Iraq are to be considered. The officials note that a response is important in order to maintain the credibility of U.S. policy on chemical warfare.

.................................................. ........................................

Document 38: Department of State Cable from George P. Shultz to the United States Consulate General, Jerusalem. "Follow-up Steps on Iraq-Iran" [Includes Transmittal Sheet], January 14, 1984.

The U.S. intensifies its diplomatic efforts to curtail arms sales to Iran and imposes anti-terrorism export controls on that country. However, it does not plan to prohibit U.S. imports of Iranian oil.

The U.S. was developing plans to liberalize its export policy for Iraq. The revised rules would permit the export of U.S.-origin armored ambulances, communications gear, and electronic equipment for the protection of Saddam Hussein's personal aircraft. The Reagan administration was continuing efforts to persuade the Export-Import Bank to provide financing for Iraq -- a positive Eximbank determination would improve Iraq's credit rating and make it easier for it to obtain loans from international financial institutions.

Source: Declassified through Congressional investigation

.................................................. ........................................

Document 56: Letter from Richard M. Nixon to Nicolae Ceausescu. [Regarding U.S.-Romanian Venture to Sell Uniforms to Iraq], May 3, 1984.

Former president Richard Nixon sends a letter to Romanian President Nicolae Ceausescu in support of a deal made by Colonel John Brennan, his former aide and chief of staff, and former attorney general John Mitchell, to buy Romanian-manufactured military uniforms for export to Iraq.

Media and criminal investigations of U.S. companies that had exported weapons-related or dual-use items to Iraq were conducted after Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. Many of these companies seemed to have connections with former U.S. government officials.

Source: Court exhibit
.................................................. ........................................

Document 57: Department of State, Special Adviser to the Secretary on Nonproliferation Policy and Nuclear Energy Affairs Memorandum from Dick Gronet to Richard T. Kennedy. "U.S. Dual-Use Exports to Iraq: Specific Actions" [Includes Document Entitled "Dual Use Exports to Iraq" Dated April 27, 1984], May 9, 1984.

An internal State Department paper indicates that the government is reviewing policy for "the sale of certain categories of dual-use items to Iraqi nuclear entities," and the review's "preliminary results favor expanding such trade to include Iraqi nuclear entities."

Source: Declassified through Congressional investigation
.................................................. ........................................

Document 59: Department of State, Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs Briefing Paper. "Iraqi Illegal Use of Chemical Weapons," November 16, 1984.

Indicates that the U.S. concluded some time ago that Iraq had used "domestically produced lethal CW" in the Iran-Iraq war, developed in part through "the unwitting and, in some cases, we believe witting assistance" of numerous Western firms. The State Department's Bureau of Politico-Military Affairs thinks that Iraq stopped using chemical weapons in response to a U.S. demarche in November 1983, and resumed their use in February 1984.

Source: Declassified through Congressional investigation

About the National Security Archive

An independent non-governmental research institute and library located at The George Washington University, the Archive collects and publishes declassified documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act. The Archive also serves as a repository of government records on a wide range of topics pertaining to the national security, foreign, intelligence, and economic policies of the United States. The Archive won the 1999 George Polk Award, one of U.S. journalism's most prestigious prizes, for-in the words of the citation-"piercing the self-serving veils of government secrecy, guiding journalists in the search for the truth and informing us all."

The Archive obtains its materials through a variety of methods, including the Freedom of Information act, Mandatory Declassification Review, presidential paper collections, congressional records, and court testimony. Archive staff members systematically track U.S. government agencies and federal records repositories for documents that either have never been released before, or that help to shed light on the decision-making process of the U.S. government and provide the historical context underlying those decisions.

[hcap]

Here's a good synopsis of what happened. Supported by the above documents.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0613-03.htm

snip..."In 1982, as the Iran-Iraq war began to hot up, the USA quietly took Iraq off the State Department's list of states that supported terrorism. This allowed money to start flowing from America into Saddam's coffers.

Both the White House and the State Department bullied the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing. This made Saddam's balance sheet look so healthy that he was able to get loans from other international banks. Unsurprisingly, Saddam spent most of his new-found wealth on weapons - which he bought from Britain and America. Joyce Battle, of the National Security Archive, says: "Although official US policy still barred the export of US military equipment to Iraq, some was evidently provided on a ‘don't ask, don't tell' basis."

He was our neighborhood friendly evil dictator back then.
Reminds me of Orwell's shifting cast of enemies.
Oceania
Eastasia
Eurasia

* WAR IS PEACE
* FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
* IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

[Greyfox]

Jeez. hcap and 46z.
Don't let me disturb your agendas, but this thread is supposed to be about Brits taken by Iran. What's the resolution for this problem, not all of the other woes of the world.

[Tom]

Typical - spin and shotgun everything to divert attention when they don't have any answers. Maybe we should stop calling them the Four Horsemen and start calling them the Four Tops! :lol:

[46zilzal]

Interesting: One side of the debate provides document after document and the other side supplies opinion. Great debate, but typical.

[Greyfox]

No problem here with documentation, if it's on topic.

[The Judge]

What have they found ,the hell with looking ,what have they found? I like your thinking though, sell some nut poison then a few years after he has used it on his neighbors you go over an kill him along with 600,000 of his country men because he won't give it back, shows you are thinking.

Thats almost as good as that old chestnut "rescuing medical students" used in the 80's. Even thou they never even came into contact with a medical student until 3 days after they invaded Grenada.

This country never learns it does what is convenient in the moment for big buisness the true master in the good old USofA. No wonder people stop voting.

[Lefty]

46, i'll go greyfox one further, if it's on point and what's the point in bringing all this up? Too prove we are as bad as Saddam? If you really think that, why are you still here? I get damned tired of you libs' running this country dn.
We have had many allies in the past that were needed for the time and situation. Things change and they change mightily. Hey, zilly, why don't you accuse these guys of simplistic thinking cause that's exactly what they're engaged in. The politics of the world, much like the climate, is constantly in flux.
The point is, what's the best move next? And it's NOT whining about the past.

[46zilzal]

We have had many allies in the past that were needed for the time and situation. Things change and they change mightily. Hey, zilly, why don't you accuse these guys of simplistic thinking cause that's exactly what they're engaged in. The politics of the world, much like the climate, is constantly in flux.
The point is, what's the best move next? And it's NOT whining about the past.
Just like the rutabaga: some people don't learn from the past others do.

[Lefty]

Hey, judge, that's the mantra and whining of the left. Guess you haven't heard, the islamic fasciests vow to kill everyone that doesn't convert to Islam. Nothing to do with big business and everything to do with self protection. And what have they found? They found quite a lot and all poohpoohed by the left cause iot did't fit their political agenda. And like zilly said, this bacteria can be hid almost anywhere and can be near impossible to find. And I paraphrase, zilly.

[Lefty]

Just like the rutabaga: some people don't learn from the past others do.
Ah, zilly, who can grasp complex medical probs but no room i guess to grasp the complexity of the politics of the world. Either that or if it doesn't suit your socialist vision So you call names. Like most haters, you're very quick with the namecalling. You guys are always crying diplomacy, then when we engage in it, and the dicatators turn against us later, you always want to go back and use it against us. You guys always take the side of the bad guys. Whether it's a criminal on death row or a despot like Saddam, you're always on the wrong side. You are a curious lot. And very knee-jerk simplistic thinkers: in politics and climate change and alternative energy.

[Greyfox]

And like zilly said, this bacteria can be hid almost anywhere and can be near impossible to find. And I paraphrase, zilly.

Exactly. You've hit the nail on the head. I never agreed with going or not going to war. I just pointed out that 46z , in arguing against going, was providing proof positive for going. Unfortunately, he doesn't see it.

But what about those Brits?
This situation could swing either way very easily. It could blow the lid off of the middle east if not handled with care. Or, hopefully they seamen (and lady) will be returned safely.

The whole situation raises serious questions about the British Navy and it's protocol for handling this type of event. It's not that they haven't had previous experience in this area. Just a few years ago 8 or so seamen were in the same predicament with Iran and ultimately returned.

The British Navy has to seriously look at their rules for engagement, their chain of command, and their training of seamen in the event of capture.
I repeat. Those sailors should have stuck to Name, Rank and Serial Number. The earliest photo's back suggests that they weren't put under much undue suffering and yet all 15 started flapping their lips. What kind of navy is that?

[46zilzal]

Negotiated their release this morning.

[Greyfox]

Negotiated their release this morning.

That's fantastic news.
It's basically a repeat of a 2004 scenario,
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-124132516.html

It still raises serious questions about the British Navy and why they would allow their seamen to get in that predicatment.

[Tom]

Call him Tony Chamberlin.
Played right into the bastard's hands.
Britain will suffer for his inactions. The muslem colonization of England will undoubtedly be ratcheted up. They already do not teach the holcoust in Brittish schools for fear of muslem retribtution by tose who don't blieve it occurred. How do the explain that to the Jewish kids who go visit Grandpa and see the tattoo on his arm? The Brits know the Jews will not kill them - can't say that for the muslems - as they repeatedly prove with their displays of inability to live in a civilized world.

We all soon see just what negotion with animals brings to you.


I said it before, I'll say it again....it is a HOLY WAR.

[46zilzal]

Too bad peace reigns.....Didn't have the chance to kill anyone so the warmongers are really upset.

[Lefty]

Too bad peace reigns.....Didn't have the chance to kill anyone so the warmongers are really upset.
100% wrong. We are peace mongers, and we know that Iran will do this again cause they got away with it this time. No other purpose to do it except to see how Britain responds. There will be repeats of this incident. If they try to do it it to us, we should blow them out of the water and not be taken meekly. You only secure peace through winning, not negotiating the country away.

[The Judge]

but we owe it to ourselves to start a war so we can take a look for something we know we can't find. Explain that to me! The President wanted a war the media wanted a war so a pretext for a war was found and a war was started.

The president told you WMD's (before it was medical students)and it seems you bought it ,not little WMD's that could be hid in a small box no! Big WMD's that the Army could see. That's who they sent over to take a look the Army.

There is no real reason to go to war they make them up out of thin air. The Congress people want to get re-elected more then they want to avoid war so they sign on ,so they don't look as if they are siding with the enemy. Its the safe bet.

If they voted against the war they know that people just like some of you would vote them out of office. They know that once the body bags start coming back and days turn into years the tune will change then they can make political hay out of it, whats a few 100,000 lives in the process. It's all bull, don't you get it.

The war in paradise (Grenada) started after 200+ marines were kill in their barracks as the slept. It was all over the news all over the media. War in Grenada starts within a few days no more barracks news only "the war news".

I don't know if its true but I heard more medals were given out in this week long war then in all of WWll. Sounds about right, most of the US casualties were from accidents, helicopters running into each other and the like.

Starting a war is now a political startegy it has nothing to do with a real threat or even an imaginary one.

[46zilzal]

would help to get your Grenada information correct:
The invasion, which commenced at 05:00 on October 25, was the first major operation conducted by the U.S. military since the Vietnam War. Fighting continued for several days and the total number of American troops reached some 7,000 along with 300 troops from the OECS. The invading forces encountered about 1,500 Grenadian soldiers and about 600 Cubans, most of whom were military engineers. There is no evidence that military personnel from other communist countries were on Grenada.

Official U.S. sources state that the defenders were well-prepared, well-positioned and put up stubborn resistance, to the extent that the U.S. called in two battalions of reinforcements on the evening of October 26. However, the total naval and air superiority of the invading forces — including helicopter gunships and naval gunfire support — proved to be significant advantages.

Find evidence of all these deaths while sleeping.....Another "trumped up" bull shit war. U.S. forces suffered 19 fatalities and 116 injuries. Grenada suffered 45 military and at least 24 civilian deaths, along with 358 soldiers wounded. Cuba had 25 killed in action, with 59 wounded and 638 taken prisoner.

[JustRalph]

2.5 billion barrels a day. Oil went up 6 dollars or more a barrel on average during the crisis. You do the math.............

[46zilzal]

2.5 billion barrels a day. Oil went up 6 dollars or more a barrel on average during the crisis. You do the math.............
Investors freak over anything. If they THINK there is a problem, the price goes up.

[46zilzal]

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has met with some of the 15 British military personnel held in Iranian custody for almost two weeks, shortly after pardoning the group and vowing to set them free.

Iranian state television showed footage of Ahmadinejad shaking hands, smiling and chatting with the detainees who were dressed in suits. One of them was heard to comment in English: "We are grateful for your forgiveness."

[Tom]

Animal behavior has been rewarded again. Jimmy Carter will be proud.
My first thought whe I heard the news this morning was how many total idiots will not see this for what it really is. I go to lunch, listen to Knucklehead Head - my first idiot. Then I come back and read the last few posts.

Global warming? I dunno, but I'd worry more about global dumbing! :lol:

40 years of using kidnapping as a political tool and people here actually think something good happened here today.

Serioulsy, someone explain to me what Iran gave up in this so-called negotiation. This whole thing was planned from the git go.

[46zilzal]

No war, no battles, no deaths, misunderstandings resolved and this is a BAD thing?

No killing...too bad for the warmongers

Of course a person who won the Nobel Peace Prize would be happy.

[The Judge]

I knew that 240 Marines were killed by a truck being driven into their barracks in Beirut Lebanon, didn't mean that it happened in Grenada I should have said that rather then assuming people knew this. The war in Grenada took this off the front page. People were pissed at Ronald Reagan, yes you heard me pissed at Ronald Reagan!

I also knew there was hard fighting but I thought I read the most of the US deaths was do to poor communications which lead to accidents. Will have to check that out

[Greyfox]

Judge, I think that your in the wrong court room. Sort of like a surgeon operating on a knee when he should be taking out tonsils?

[hcap]

Stupid brit surrender monkeys!
I move that fish and chips, after all a brit invention, to be called from now on for ever and ever pisci and freedom fries.

El Tom de la Muerte40 years of using kidnapping as a political tool and people here actually think something good happened here today.

* WAR IS PEACE
* FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
* IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH


Originaly babbled by the all seeing and omnipotent Boxhead
Originally Posted by hcap
Tom and Ken support genocide. Over and over. I don't. Do you?

I never applauded Iran for any of this. I wish the British soldiers a speedy releaseReally? And we were supposed to take your silence (up until now) as what? Tacit condemnation of their aggressive behavior?

You know what you should do 'cap? Get together with your fellow peaceniks, and code pink groups, etc. to rally and demonstrate in D.C. against Iran's aggressive actions and its in inhumane treatment of those 15 hostages.

Until then, your sympathetic sentiments ring awfully hollow.

Boxcar
Score one for code pink and one for the beatniks throughout the world.

[Humph]

Perhaps the UK ought to obtain a couple of "game-day" tapes from Israel.

I tell you ladies and gents, some of the philosophy spouted in this thread is enough to make one's hair stand on end....

Kiss your asses goodbye if this ever becomes mainstream thought.


Barroom bravado should be left where it belongs ; it doesn't carry into the real world, certainly not into the world of professional military forces.

Actually, the Brits have acted very well here : 15 people going home to their families.

[chickenhead]

Very happy they are coming home safe.

Just a suggestion to hcap and 46: Your argument that we should care about the geneva conventions and false imprisonment (gitmo) would carry more weight if your actions showed that you actually cared about them. So long as the victim is white and the perpetrator is muslim you don't seem to care at all....I find that very weird.

[46zilzal]

Just a suggestion to hcap and 46: Your argument that we should care about the geneva conventions and false imprisonment (gitmo) would carry more weight if your actions showed that you actually cared about them. .
Quote a line from any post here where I quoted the Geneva convention, or Gitmo for that matter, Please quote me

Fun to be lumped into a common ground based upon supposition.

[chickenhead]

so you don;t care about the Geneva Conventions? I apologize, I thought you did.

[Tom]

No war, no battles, no deaths, misunderstandings resolved and this is a BAD thing?

No killing...too bad for the warmongers

Of course a person who won the Nobel Peace Prize would be happy.

Don't you ever tire of concepts zooming over your head?:bang:
This the same type of thing like when Chamberlin came back home from Berlin with a note from Hitler ensureing peace. Actions seldom reveal the true intent of tyrants. This was scripted, with a purpose. Blair's actions where what the Iran wanted, but probablt thier second choice. A US attack was target #1. But this was also a win for them and a severe blow to Britain and the US. Couple this wtih Nancy Bin Losi sucking up to the Syrian tyrants today and the western world comes across as weak, un-united, and very vunerable. Something I am sure you are rejoycing now that I have explained it to you.

[46zilzal]

pretty sure thats my point 46...you didn;t say squat, except to trivialize...
I didn't say a thing you claim I said. NADA, so until you get your facts straight I would not claim what you THINK I may or may not have said.

Idiots want to "play" war is about the summation of what I have said about this whole affair.

[Tom]

Barroom bravado should be left where it belongs ; it doesn't carry into the real world, certainly not into the world of professional military forces.

Actually, the Brits have acted very well here : 15 people going home to their families.


And the illegal kidnapping rewarded. Wonder what Iran will do next?
How can you suggest negotiating when you are in the right? Britain has sent a message weakness to preying animals. They have screwed this whole thing up from the very begining by not preventing the kidnapping in the first place.
If someone breaks into your home and takes your daughter, do you allow it and negotiate later, or go break the guy in half before he gets away?

[46zilzal]

Gee Tom no chance to do your favorite thing:kill someone

[chickenhead]

I didn't say a thing you claim I said. NADA, so until you get your facts straight I would not claim what you THINK I may or may not have said.

You trivialized a breach of the Geneva Convention.

I might be more outraged at the conditon of our public schools than this.

Yet here you started a whole thread about how important the Geneva convention is:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30917&page=1&pp=15&highlight=geneva

So either 5th grade math is extremely important to you (yet no threads?) or you are a hypocrite

[46zilzal]

I quoted an article. Must be responsible for all the advertising in the margins too.

At least you are one of the few who can SPELL hypocrite.

[chickenhead]

I went to private school.

[delayjf]

Unsurprisingly, Saddam spent most of his new-found wealth on weapons - which he bought from Britain and America.

46, Hcap,

Are you aware of which country manufactures AK-47s, T-72 tanks or MIG-29 Fulcrums or F1 Mirages? It certainly is not the United States. Their conventional army was strictly Eastern Block. So we sold them Vietnam era Hueys, big deal. Before the war, the US also sold F-14s to the Iranians. All told US sales of conventional weapons amounted to less than 1 percent of Iraq’s military imports. In terms of total aircraft, Canada supplied a total of 152 turboprops compared to the US 116 Helos.

So we back Iraq in their war with Iran, no kidding? Given the Political climate at the time, what would you expect? Iran was / is a rogue state that had hijacked our Embassy and sponsored terrorist organizations that had attacked the US (Beirut Barracks bombing). If they win the war then they control a major share of the Mid-East oil reserves, which would have been economically a disaster for the US, and the rest of the World. The US was not the only ones backing Iraq, so was most of Europe, Russia, China, and Canada (Sorry 46).

For all your Reagan quotes, “Do whatever is necessary and legal to win the war”. You are implying that the US was conducting a clandestine war against Iran, but the facts simply don’t support you accusation. Conducting Navy exercises in the Persian Gulf is not an act of war, it’s meant to intimidate and let our adversaries know, we’re here and watching. We do this all the time in the China Sea with N. Korea. It’s one thing our Military does – project power.

Indeed, the WORLD (including the US) was duplicitous with regards to Iraq and their use of WMDs. However, according to the Iraq, US support of Saddams WMD program was small compared to other nations. The UN said nothing until after the war. Pictures of Rumsfeld shaking Saddams hand make for good propaganda, but he was a Diplomat visiting a foreign land, what do you expect. Can we then conclude that Nancy Pelosi supports Hamas and Hezbolla because she’s shaken the hand of Bashar Assad.

[46zilzal]

what is the point of all of that? That is other than use the famous over-used word duplicitous.

[Secretariat]

Barroom bravado should be left where it belongs ; it doesn't carry into the real world, certainly not into the world of professional military forces.

Actually, the Brits have acted very well here : 15 people going home to their families.

Agreed. Thank God some cooler heads prevailed this time. Glad for them and their families. Probably better Blair distanced himself from Bush - it at least opened a window.

[delayjf]

what is the point of all of that? That is other than use the famous over-used word duplicitous.

1) Hcap's insinuation that the US was a major supporter of Iraq during their war with Iran.

2) Hcaps insinuation that the US was a major contributor to Iraq's WMD program.

[46zilzal]

1) Hcap's insinuation that the US was a major supporter of Iraq during their war with Iran.

2) Hcaps insinuation that the US was a major contributor to Iraq's WMD program.
Well read link to the National Archives: it's all there.

[hcap]

"In 1982, as the Iran-Iraq war began to hot up, the USA quietly took Iraq off the State Department's list of states that supported terrorism. This allowed money to start flowing from America into Saddam's coffers.

Both the White House and the State Department bullied the Export-Import Bank to provide Iraq with financing. This made Saddam's balance sheet look so healthy that he was able to get loans from other international banks. Joyce Battle, of the National Security Archive, says: "Although official US policy still barred the export of US military equipment to Iraq, some was evidently provided on a ‘don't ask, don't tell' basis."

I said the West and the Us. I did not say the USSR did nothing. It is the arms industry, a major branch of industry, capitalism, and big money. Tanks and aircraft constituting conventional armaments are sold by all major arms supplying countries to dozens of questionable regimes.

You sayAll told US sales of conventional weapons amounted to less than 1 percent of Iraq’s military imports.
It was not JUST conventional arms that describes the whole situation. Your argument falls short. It does not touch helping finance Saddam, providing strategic support and looking the other way as well as greasing the wheels for many western firms to equip Saddam with WMD supplies. This is the larger more accurate picture.

I presented documents, from a division in the National Security Archive,an independent non-governmental research institute and library located at The George Washington University. 46, also included sources, pretty well substantiating our case. I did not "insinuate" we were a major supporter of Husein during the war, I and 46 provided documents that proved it.

You are wearing blinkers. We chose Saddam over Iran. We payed for that. Choosing Iran would also have had consequences. Perhaps conflict resolution-you know diplomacy-might have totally changed the course of history.

History is more convoluted than simple bully on the block,juvenile schoolyard over-simplifications of war and foreign policy, as Lefty babbled should be the root of geopolitics. You gentlemen are quick to accuse any one who disagrees with "American Exceptionalism" -we are always right- of not having the right to do so. And the suggestion to pack up and leave generally follows. Conservative foreign policy refuses to acknowledge that America is capable of doing wrong. Conservatives refused to admit that Joseph McCarthy was violating civil liberties. When bush gets called on Guantanamo, he basically says, that's ridiculous, we're America, we can't violate human rights.

Well guess what, blowback is 100x's more likely to come back and bite us on the ass when we intervine, engineer coups and manipulate other countries.
We overthrew a democratically elected leader in Iran and installed the Shah.
Helped give rise to the mullahs and the theocratic regime in Iran. The CIA helped place Saddam in power way back. Supported him against Iran.

Blowback.

Now that the Brits are being released, without war, bombings or worse, we can see that diplomacy has worked. good thing bush did not handle this.

[hcap]

From Wiki....

German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manfacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.[10]

France built Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor in the late 1970s. Israel claimed that Iraq was getting close to building nuclear weapons, and so bombed it in 1981. Later, a French company built a turnkey factory which helped make nuclear fuel. France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was French. Strains of dual-use biological material also helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program.

Italy gave Iraq plutonium extraction facilities that advanced Iraq’s nuclear weapon program. 75,000 shells and rockets designed for chemical weapon use also came from Italy. Between 1979 and 1982 Italy gave depleted, natural, and low-enriched uranium. Swiss companies aided in Iraq’s nuclear weapons development in the form of specialized presses, milling machines, grinding machines, electrical discharge machines, and equipment for processing uranium to nuclear weapon grade. Brazil secretly aided the Iraqi nuclear weapon program by supplying natural uranium dioxide between 1981 and 1982 without notifying the IAEA. About 100 tons of mustard gas also came from Brazil.

The United States exported $500 million of dual use exports to Iraq that were approved by the Commerce department. Among them were advanced computers, some of which were used in Iraq’s nuclear program. The non-profit American Type Culture Collection and the Centers for Disease Control sold or sent biological samples to Iraq under Saddam Hussein up until 1989, which Iraq claimed it needed for medical research. These materials included anthrax, West Nile virus and botulism, as well as Brucella melitensis, which damages major organs, and clostridium perfringens, which causes gas gangrene. Some of these materials were used for Iraq's biological weapons research program, while others were used for vaccine development.[11]

[46zilzal]

I like the way you don't capitlaize the rutabaga's name. Subtle and effective way to state he is a little man.

[lsbets]

Now that the Brits are being released, without war, bombings or worse, we can see that diplomacy has worked. good thing bush did not handle this.

Are you seriously that naive to believe that an emboldened Iranian regime, whose naval forces entered Iraqi waters, kidnapped 15 British sailors, held them hostage, and received nothing but an ass kissing from the Brits is a good thing? Zero repurcusions for committing what is generally recognized as an act of war. You seriously think that's the right message to send the Iranians? You can't possibly be that naive.

[JustRalph]

I just watched an interview on CNN with a Professor who was originally from Iran. She says she is being told that Iranian Televison is hailing the "gift" from Iran to Briton. Then they are running analysis on how Briton and the "Great Satan" America are cowards and they have bowed to the will of the "Great Nation of Iran" once again.

You think this doesn't embolden the wingnut president? He just scored about 50 million dollars to prop up his government and pay for the stuff that Russia is holding up due to lack of payment. He also just gained points with the citizens of his nation. He got a big Win-Win out of this and Tony Blair and his Navy are now the laughing stock of the sea.

Chalk one up for Iran and the pussification of the West.

[46zilzal]

I just watched an interview on CNN with a Professor who was originally from Iran. She says she is being told that Iranian Televison is hailing the "gift" from Iran to Briton. Then they are running analysis on how Briton and the "Great Satan" America are cowards and they have bowed to the will of the "Great Nation of Iran" once again.

You think this doesn't embolden the wingnut president? He just scored about 50 million dollars to prop up his government and pay for the stuff that Russia is holding up due to lack of payment. He also just gained points with the citizens of his nation. He got a big Win-Win out of this and Tony Blair and his Navy are now the laughing stock of the sea.

Chalk one up for Iran and the pussification of the West.

So what do you expect from this fellow? From HIS point of view, that is HIS reality. Anyone would make hay with all of this heavy sided propaganda.

[Lefty]

What it means is that they will do it again. And the left on this board and throughout the world will cheer them on.

[Secretariat]

Are you seriously that naive to believe that an emboldened Iranian regime, whose naval forces entered Iraqi waters, kidnapped 15 British sailors, held them hostage, and received nothing but an ass kissing from the Brits is a good thing? Zero repurcusions for committing what is generally recognized as an act of war. You seriously think that's the right message to send the Iranians? You can't possibly be that naive.

I know this was directed to Hcap, and I'm sure he'll reply on his own, however I felt the need to at least comment.

I think it is "a good thing when no soldiers or civilians were killed, and diplomacy worked I think it is "a good thing" when a half a trillion dollars were not flushed down the toilet. I think it is "a good thing" when 3200+ more people are alive, and at least 25k wounded are not wounded. I think it is "a good thing" when by conservative estimates 100,000 more civlians are still alive.

To belevie that Iran needs this incident to feel "emboldened" is naive. They already feel emboldened. They don't need this. Never have. The question of whether those soldiers were in Iraqi or Iranian water or territory in dispute is in fact still in dispute.

Again, thankfully cooler heads prevailed, and it didn't cost Britain a couple of hundred billion and dead soldiers.

[46zilzal]

What it means is that they will do it again. And the left on this board and throughout the world will cheer them on.
You have a difficult time putting two and two together yet again.

The only thing rational people will cheer is a peaceful resolution.

[wonatthewire1]

Lefty & Tom,

Usually I enjoy the banter...however, as was just mentioned, it leaves the door "open" to them doing it again.

We don't know exactly what was said and we know that the kook in charge over in Iran will say just about anything...so who is to say that he hasn't already been warned that if he does do it again there will be repercussions and those are: 1...2...3...etc.

And remember, the kook didn't have to let them go - a chess game or was he threatened with a very heavy consequence?

LS would know better than anyone here - but I wonder, considering the fact that the defeat of the Iraqi army was rather swift and the Iraq/Iran was a draw; how strong is the Iranian armed forces? There might even be a lot of 'em - but as we saw with Iraq - that can fold really quickly.

[wonatthewire1]

um Sec...the Brits have the GPS coordinates documented > nothing is in dispute except the fact that you can't trust the Iranians > and we don't > and the Iranians have been advised that we don't

The Indian freighter that they were inspecting confirmed the GPS output - so I guess the Indians and the Brits are lying, right?

Nice try though - but instead of copying and pasting from articles, you actually attempt to understand them - and you can go find, copy and past the documentation, read it, comprehend it (if you need assistance, feel free to ask) and post it for all of us.

Much appreciated in advance!

Sincerely,

Won ;)

[lsbets]

LS would know better than anyone here - but I wonder, considering the fact that the defeat of the Iraqi army was rather swift and the Iraq/Iran was a draw; how strong is the Iranian armed forces? There might even be a lot of 'em - but as we saw with Iraq - that can fold really quickly.

The challenge wouldn't be the defeat of their military, that would be easy. The challenge, as in Iraq, would be the aftermath, and we as a nation are not equipped to deal with it. Our politicians would rather jockey for power than do what is right - they hate the opposition more than they love our nation, and sadly they have their diehard supporters, even here on this board.

[Tom]

I like the way you don't capitlaize the rutabaga's name. Subtle and effective way to state he is a little man.

He towers over YOU, shorty!

You two spend a lot of time on the monkey bars together, because I can't decide which one of you is the most juvenille on this board. But it is definately one of you.

[Tom]

..... You can't possibly be that naive.

Yes, he can, and he is. Bush did not get involved in all of this and STILL this bunch of American embarrasments can't resist tying him to it. It speaks volumes about them. And of course, we all know who on this boards supports the terrorists 100% and America NEVER. Can you imagine the hcap outrage is We treated prisoners exactly the same way Iran has? I have no doubt hcap was seriously depressed when the orignal Iranian hostages were released in 1980.

The little Hitler in charge now was one of the hotage takers 40 years ago and STILL used that as a foreign policy method - and the local traitors fall lock step in line behind him.

[Tom]

Again, thankfully cooler heads prevailed, and it didn't cost Britain a couple of hundred billion and dead soldiers.

Yet.

But with people like you, hcap, Nancy Bin Losi, there door is wide open now.
I can't believe just how intelligent he looks, how incredibly smart and intutive, when juxtaposed to you people.

[kenwoodallpromos]

1- At the time I said that I did not know the terrorist victims were in Tehran;
2- I did not know just nuking Tehran and not elsewhere in Iran made me a genocidist;
3- I agree with Dennis K on the latest supplement vote.
4-I think they were released because the Muslims were scared to death when they saw Pelosi in her Islam headress!

[PaceAdvantage]

Barroom bravado should be left where it belongs ; it doesn't carry into the real world, certainly not into the world of professional military forces.

Actually, the Brits have acted very well here : 15 people going home to their families.

The Brits should NEVER have allowed their soldiers to be TAKEN in the first place.

The more commonplace "appeasement" becomes, the quicker you all can kiss your asses goodbye.

Excuse me while I barf.

[Secretariat]

um Sec...the Brits have the GPS coordinates documented > nothing is in dispute except the fact that you can't trust the Iranians > and we don't > and the Iranians have been advised that we don't

The Indian freighter that they were inspecting confirmed the GPS output - so I guess the Indians and the Brits are lying, right?

Nice try though - but instead of copying and pasting from articles, you actually attempt to understand them - and you can go find, copy and past the documentation, read it, comprehend it (if you need assistance, feel free to ask) and post it for all of us.

Much appreciated in advance!

Sincerely,

Won ;)

I've read it. As I said, there is dispute over it. From the Christian Science Monitor:

“For all the possible political motives however, the main cause of the showdown could be a centuries-old dispute over the water border between Iran and Iraq. It began with the 1639 Treaty of Zuhab between the Persian and Ottoman empires, which divided the land without a careful survey. Disagreements through the 1980s, and some of the fiercest fighting in the eight-year war between the two nations occurred along this border. The Associated Press quotes Lawrence G. Potter, an associate professor of international affairs at Columbia University, who says that even to this day the exact demarcation has not been established. "The problem is that nobody knows where the border is," Potter said. "The British might have thought they were on their side, the Iranians might have thought they were on their side."

[wonatthewire1]

Sec,

Typical for you:
1. No, you didn't cite in a manner that passes a legal test
2. You copied and pasted an excerpt from an copyrighted source

One suggestion before you end up in trouble, the way to cite sources is to use the APA guidelines which are accepted by US graduate institutions. The guide costs about $30.00; might be money well spent instead of going the lawyer route.

Oh and maybe one way to settle the "border" is to have our ships and a few NATO ones sit in a line on the water to help the Iranians get a clearer picture of the situation - that way there is no confusion. It may even help them - imagine that!

[delayjf]

Hcap,

From a funding perspective I would agree with you. But its hardly uncommon that the US provides funding for our allies I.E Germany, S. Korea, Thailand, Japan, Tiawan, Israel, etc.

Heres the part of the WIKI article you left out that breaks it down as to who supplied what to Saddams WMD programs.

In December 2002, Iraq's 1,200 page Weapons Declaration revealed a list of Eastern and Western corporations and countries, as well as individuals, that exported a total of 17,602 tons of chemical precursors to Iraq in the past two decades.By far, the largest suppliers of precursors for chemical weapons production were in Singapore (4,515 tons), the Netherlands (4,261 tons), Egypt (2,400 tons), India (2,343 tons), and Federal Republic of Germany (1,027 tons). One Indian company, Exomet Plastics (now part of EPC Industrie) sent 2,292 tons of precursor chemicals to Iraq. The Kim Al-Khaleej firm, located in Singapore and affiliated to United Arab Emirates, supplied more than 4,500 tons of VX, sarin, and mustard gas precursors and production equipment to Iraq.[39]

According to Iraq's declarations, it had procured 340 pieces of equipment used for the production of chemical weapons. More than half came from Germany, the remainder mostly from France, Spain, and Austria. [6] In addition, Iraq declared that it imported more than 200,000 munitions made for delivering chemicals, 75,000 came from Italy, 57,500 from Spain, 45,000 from China, and 28,500 from Egypt. [7]

The U.S. firm Alcolac International supplied one mustard-gas precursor, thiodiglycol, to both Iraq and Iran in violation of U.S. export laws for which it was forced to pay a fine in 1989. Overall between 300-400 tons were sent to Iraq.

Of the 17,602 tons of chemicals provided to Iraq at most, 400 tons or roughly 2% came from the US.

Again, the US was not the only bad guy WRT Iraq's WMD program.

[Greyfox]

Sec,


One suggestion before you end up in trouble, the way to cite sources is to use the APA guidelines which are accepted by US graduate institutions. The guide costs about $30.00; might be money well spent instead of going the lawyer route.



Lawyer route? APA Guidelines? $ 30 not on a horse?
I guess wonatthewire1 you'd better admonish quite a few posters of that rigid requirement. I didn't realize that we had to be up on legalese and US graduate institution requirements here. Ain't gonna happen with me.

[Secretariat]

Sec,

Typical for you:
1. No, you didn't cite in a manner that passes a legal test
2. You copied and pasted an excerpt from an copyrighted source

One suggestion before you end up in trouble, the way to cite sources is to use the APA guidelines which are accepted by US graduate institutions. The guide costs about $30.00; might be money well spent instead of going the lawyer route.

Oh and maybe one way to settle the "border" is to have our ships and a few NATO ones sit in a line on the water to help the Iranians get a clearer picture of the situation - that way there is no confusion. It may even help them - imagine that!

Jeez,..pass a legal test? You're going to have to sue everyone on here then on citing sources. Like delayj right after your post.

Lighten up. This isn't a courtroom, it's a horse racing board.

You simply said there was "no dispute". I posted an AP quote from a professor who disagrees with your assertion whic hwas exactly my point. The issue was in dispute.

This is even irrelevant to the bulk of my first post which was that thank God these people are free and it didn't costs thousands of lives, and billions of dollars to make it happen. You're obviously worked up over something that most of here are celebrating turned out for the best.

Let me ask a question. Would you have been happier if Britain had invaded Iran and all the hostages were killed? Would you have prefrerred we nuked Tehran and all the hostages were killed? I'm not sure what approach you were advocating here except overall disgruntlement that the Brits were freed. As to the emboldening BS as I stated previously Iran has been emboldened since 1979. I'm sure Britain has a nice nuke pointed right at Tehran, and I'm sure they know it. Walk softly and carry a big stick.

[delayjf]

Like delayj right after your post.

Everything I posted above was from the same source Hcap sited, if you have another source please post.

[Greyfox]

Dang. I don't have to spend $ 30 bucks after all.
That grad requirement stuff is all on line, sort of at:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/560/01/

Me? I "ain't" goin that route.

[Tom]

....You simply said there was "no dispute". I posted an AP quote from a professor who disagrees with your assertion whic hwas exactly my point. The issue was in dispute.......



So 'splain to me why when YOU find a dissenting opinion, the issue is automatically in dispute, but when we point out not all scientists agree with GW, YOU parrot the party line - there is no debate!

BYW. 28 out right now. For the last 20 hours, the temp has dropped steadily from 64 to 28. This by far a more profound trendline than your warming line.
Should I start generating co2 like a madman to stem off the cooling?

[skate]

Lefty & Tom,



We don't know exactly what was said and we know that the kook in charge over in Iran will say just about anything...so who is to say that he hasn't already been warned that if he does do it again there will be repercussions and those are: 1...2...3...etc.

And remember, the kook didn't have to let them go - a chess game or was he threatened with a very heavy consequence?

how strong is the Iranian armed forces? There might even be a lot of 'em - but as we saw with Iraq - that can fold really quickly.



could be, but i think this was done by 'AJ' mahmoud, with one thiought in mind, that being to gain some simpathy , if and when 'things get tough'.
gives him and the press an outlet to say " i tried being nice, so have pity" and he'll get pity.


How strong? and why would he need 'future pity'?
from the navy, via ole North, he says it'll take about 1hour to wipe out their navy.


im just hopeful they've(iran) not the underground set up in the USA or elsewhere. also, those missing WMD could still be 'out there'.
just as Libya was able to hide their nukes.

gettin close to 'saddle up time'.

[skate]

Sec,

Typical for you:
1. No, you didn't cite in a manner that passes a legal test
2. You copied and pasted an excerpt from an copyrighted source




exactly right, but secism goes on with quote after quote. extracting just those quotes that fit his political Theatre.

to her (secism) its all just a matter of english, and dont you bother with the Math.

now i understand that this will confuse her, but ive tried.

english (language) is BS.
Math is King, always

thank you

[wonatthewire1]

Sec,

I guess I should apologize!

But really, I'm not going to. And if you like (since ya pushed it) I think a few emails to some of the people that you're stealing from might change your ways.

Best of all, I've got some time on my hands and just drove home in traffic in NJ so I'm in an excellent mood to get some things accomplished.

PS: Nice link Greyfox :>) I have my APA book through work because I do have to correctly cite references when putting together stuff for analysis.

:kiss:

[46zilzal]

Everything I posted above was from the same source Hcap sited, if you have another source please post.
re-read this thread

[Secretariat]

Sec,

I guess I should apologize!

But really, I'm not going to. And if you like (since ya pushed it) I think a few emails to some of the people that you're stealing from might change your ways.

Best of all, I've got some time on my hands and just drove home in traffic in NJ so I'm in an excellent mood to get some things accomplished.

PS: Nice link Greyfox :>) I have my APA book through work because I do have to correctly cite references when putting together stuff for analysis.

:kiss:

I never asked you to apologize and really don't care if you do or not.

Email whoever you like. I referenced who said it, the news agency reporting it, and the magazine the quote was from. Just be sure you mention just about every poster here when you do email.

I could care less about your grad requirements for posting on a horseracing board. The bottom line is you stated something unequivocally as not in dispute when in fact others beleive it is.

Again, this is NOT the reason I posted originally, but to acknowledge the mature way the Brits dealt with this without panicking by dropping bombs and causing nedless deaths.

Hopefully, we can at least agree that we're happy the hostages are alive and well.

[wonatthewire1]

It is "whomever"

;)

[wonatthewire1]

Oh and I can pick and choose (which is very cool) - enjoy your day

And no you didn't and yes I am very well aware of the legal ramifications involved.

[lsbets]

The bottom line is you stated something unequivocally as not in dispute when in fact others beleive it is.


But they are paid shills for Exxon. Other than them, the debate is over. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[The Judge]

Join the Army when the enemy doesn't roll over for you, you can threaten them with an English composition. You have reached a new low, I don't like what you say or quote so I going to send a e-mail.

What happened to all the John Wayne tough talk ? "I'm going to tell ". You bunch of cry babies your true colors finally show thru. The Duke wouldn't let you in the same fox hole with him.

[JustRalph]

These Brits are taking some heat now. It is going to get worse I predict.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=446768&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=244&in_check=N

These guys are going to get ripped at the street level also. You can bet their careers are over in the Military.


From the Article:

"Either way, it was inevitably unsettling to hear two officers in the Royal Marines - a service renowned for its toughness - publicly admitting fault, and paying compliments to the Iranians. The thought entered my mind, no doubt disloyally, that American marines might not have confessed and apologised on camera. How could that be so?"

[JustRalph]

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/05/europe/EU-GEN-Britain-Military.php

The footage was met with disgust in Britain, where some blamed the Iranians but others harshly criticized the prisoners for caving in to pressure.

[lsbets]

I nominate The Judge for the most ignorant poster of 2007. Any seconds?

[The Judge]

Isbets, now hows that for a hard hitting post. Keep it up people see who's innorant and it you.

[PaceAdvantage]

I feel like I missed something.

[JustRalph]

Second!!!!

cracks me up, ............ Hey LS......... join up!!!

[lsbets]

Second!!!!

cracks me up, ............ Hey LS......... join up!!!

Nah, I'm too much of a cry baby for combat, and hey, I'm innorant! :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Steve 'StatMan']

Hope the judge isn't judging more than bake sales and beauty contests.

[Tom]

Which judge, Paula Abdul of Simon? :confused:


BTW, did you see the "gift bags" Iran gave the sailors?
Jay Leno got one and showed what was inside. The best stuff was the tub of "I Can't Believe It's Not Hummas," and the DVD of "Goats Gone Wild! :lol:

[Tom]

Just watched the press conference with Brit sailors and the real treatment and background to their captivity.

How in HELL can anyone of even limited intelligence ever believe that Iran could be trusted in any form of negotiation??????

[Bubbles]

A link to a story about the Brits' alleged captivity...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070407/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_britain

[Greyfox]

Thanks Bubbles,

From the article that you posted:

"All of us were kept in isolation. We were interrogated most nights and presented with two options: If we admitted that we'd strayed, we'd be on a plane to (Britain) pretty soon. If we didn't, we faced up to seven years in prison," he said.

Yes. I am happy that they were safely returned.
I reiterate: Name, Rank , Serial Number.

[Lefty]

A link to a story about the Brits' alleged captivity...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070407/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iran_britain
Alleged?

[JustRalph]

This is getting thick overseas......... they are calling for heads.........

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=447007&in_page_id=1770


http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2007/04/heads-must-roll.html

http://bp3.blogger.com/_rqH4fUbko2U/RhZEKKmDCBI/AAAAAAAACHA/zlc0gwV6sPU/s320/Iran+107.jpg

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/world/4692471.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2051931,00.html

[JustRalph]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17972136/

British sailors’ conduct was a disgrace
Where is honor? Iran hostages’ handshakes, apologies are ‘reprehensible’


The capture, internment and repatriation of the British sailors and marines can only be described as a shoddy spectacle. From start to finish, the Brits heaped nothing but ignominy on themselves, and one can recall few instances in recent memory in which a group of uniformed service members acted with less professionalism and more dishonor.

From the start, things were destined to end badly. Although the inevitable investigation by the Ministry of Defence will determine the sequence of events that led to the capture, it seems that the boarding party was not following generally accepted practices for such an operation.

more at the link

[hcap]

Rage and Tourette's Syndrome?

Ok, I figured it out. The righties on this board and the remaining shreds of the bush never say die 30%'ters are suffering from "RAGE ATTACKS".

I know I criticized Lefty for using the "bully on da block" juvenile paranoid model for how to structure a nations foreign policy. But I am also going to use a childhood model. Albeit, one that seems to explain the twisted panty squealing and moaning calling for once again wholesale murder-retaliation

"When [he] has had rage attacks, they can be set off by what seems to be the most minor events. Maybe we didn't have something he wanted to eat for supper. Maybe I asked him to brush his teeth. He would start ranting and raving and wouldn't stop. Any attempt to cut him off would escalate even faster. It seemed that until he reached a certain point, he could not calm down. By then he was swearing at me and breaking things. He was totally out of control..... After the incident it was as if nothing ever happened. And if I tried to talk about it, he thought I was overreacted, and of course, said he didn't do anything. Those episodes were exhausting physically and emotionally."

-- A parent describing his teenager's "rage attacks"

"I had a rage attack like 1 hour ago. U c, I was walking down the steps and I sliped and broke my favorite pair of high heels. I never wore them out or anything. I just LOST it!!! There are dents in the walls.....small ones....about 3. I threw EVERYTHING and cried and screamed........4 about 20 mins."

--A sufferer

WHAT CONDITIONS ARE ASSOCIATED WITH "RAGE ATTACKS?"

So what are the co morbid conditions that appear to be associated with "rage attacks" or increased risk of such explosive outbursts? If one were to ask what diagnoses are more likely to be associated with anger outbursts, explosive aggression, rage attacks, or Intermittent Explosive Disorder, the answer would probably be: depression, bipolar depression, OCD, ADHD, Conduct Disorder, temporal lobe epilepsy, head injuries, Oppositional Defiant Disorder, and sensory integration disorder (although not necessarily in that order). As but one example, du Toit et al. (2001) compared OCD patients with and without co morbid conditions commonly linked to OCD spectrum disorder. They reported that the highest prevalence rates were compulsive self-injury (22.4%), compulsive buying (10.6%), and intermittent explosive disorder (10.6%). Since OCD, ADHD, and mood disorders are all highly co morbid with Tourette's Syndrome in clinical settings, it is not surprising that a subset of Tourette's patients would experience explosive outbursts.

.................................................. .................................................. .
So it is possible childhood anger and teenage fixations along with certain physical pre-existing conditions such as Tourette's Syndrome are responsible for most of the idiocy of the right. What do you think 46?

Tom and skate, feel free to answer using as much Tourette's Syndrome incoherency, misspellings and weird grammar as you deem necessary.
Neatness does not count.
:lol: :bang: :cool:

[hcap]

There are now 3 google adds for psychiatrists above as I write this.
I guess I'm not the only one to notice the level of mindless rage.
Some of youse guys should let your fingers do the walkin' and click away.

[Bubbles]

Alleged?Was referring to the alleged states they were held in, not the captivity itself.

[Lefty]

sec, rage attacks? The brits were kidnapped by Iran and you say the right is having rage attacks? Say What?

[hcap]

That proves it. Lefty is so enraged he couldn't even read the posters' name.

[Lefty]

Yeah, enraged. You guys are such clones does it matter i got the name wrong. I'll use zilly's excuse. I was in a hurry. I'm enraged over Iran kidnapping thos brits, you bet. You should be too, but you guys jump at the chance to praise and excuse our enemy and belittle the U.S. And it borders on Treason in my opinion.

[hcap]

Yeah I know it's so easy to get a name wrong. Like Iraq and Iran. Only one letter diff. Same idiotic game plan.

[Secretariat]

Yeah, enraged. You guys are such clones does it matter i got the name wrong. I'll use zilly's excuse. I was in a hurry. I'm enraged over Iran kidnapping thos brits, you bet. You should be too, but you guys jump at the chance to praise and excuse our enemy and belittle the U.S. And it borders on Treason in my opinion.

I think you meant this to someone else, but used my name. It's OK.

However, I take umbrage with one of the comments where you state:

"you guys jump at the chance to praise and excuse our enemy and belittle the U.S. And it borders on Treason in my opinion."

I can't remember anyone here praising the enemy, especially in lieu of the taking of hostages. Maybe attempting to understand their POV , that does not equate to agreeing with it. Beleive it or not I attempt to understand GW's POV as well.

[Tom]

I think I speak for Bush when I say "DON'T BOTHER!"
Your support is the LAST thing he needs. :lol:

[Secretariat]

I think I speak for Bush when I say "DON'T BOTHER!"
Your support is the LAST thing he needs. :lol:

With poll numbers dipping towards the 20's, I'd say he needs any support he can get.

[hcap]

Here are the bush supporters

Funny I don't think Tom or Lefty showed

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/10/17/us/17radio_lg.jpg

Or a new competitor to American Idol.
Called American Sheep

[Secretariat]

Here are the bush supporters

Funny I don't think Tom or Lefty showed

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2006/10/17/us/17radio_lg.jpg

Or a new competitor to American Idol.
Called American Sheep

Hcap,

You got to feel sorry for the guy down left. He looks trapped and looking for a way out. :lol: :lol: :lol:

[hcap]

Not sure who he is. Maybe one of our talk show aficionados here can fill us in.
But the guy on the lower right ( pardon moi ), I believe is Michael Medved.
Use to be a movie critic before he joined the bushies. I guess he's the house critic.

Instead of American Sheep?
American Propaganda Festival?
The master of ceremonies looks like he's telling another "fishy" story. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

With poll numbers dipping towards the 20's, I'd say he needs any support he can get.

I hope the poll numbers drop to ZERO. Still won't make a bit of difference.

[JustRalph]

Mike Gallagher

http://www.mikeonline.com/

http://images.mikeonline.com/images/photos/WH_2007_2.JPG

[Humph]

These Brits are taking some heat now. It is going to get worse I predict.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/columnists/columnists.html?in_article_id=446768&in_page_id=1772&in_author_id=244&in_check=N

These guys are going to get ripped at the street level also. You can bet their careers are over in the Military.


From the Article:

"Either way, it was inevitably unsettling to hear two officers in the Royal Marines - a service renowned for its toughness - publicly admitting fault, and paying compliments to the Iranians. The thought entered my mind, no doubt disloyally, that American marines might not have confessed and apologised on camera. How could that be so?"

Absolute crap ! So much bullshit from people who have, obviously, never been in the military.

Captured as a prisoner of war : name, rank, serial number and nothing else - that is all you say.

Captured on other missions : comply with your captors.

The above is all standard military procedure.

[JustRalph]

They are still going after them in England.............

Mr. Bean? now that is funny.................

Seaman Batchelor's claim that he cried himself to sleep after his Iranian captors likened him to the comedy character Mr Bean made him a laughing stock.

One serving soldier posted: "Batchelor didn't do the reputation of servicemen much good either! Being broken by being called Mr Bean FFS! - that must be on a par with Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition and the comfy cushions."



Troops ridicule Mr Bean, the 'cry baby' captive of Iran

Servicemen have rounded on the sailors who sold their stories of being held captive by Iran.

A series of messages on forces' websites ridiculed Arthur Batchelor and Faye Turney, who cashed in after being held prisoner for 13 days.

Today they were forced onto the defensive, with Seaman Batchelor claiming he had got so little money from the deal he could barely afford to pay for a driving test.

The 20-year-old's admission came as Defence Secretary Des Browne admitted his decision to allow the former hostages to sell their stories to the media was wrong, and Conservative leader David Cameron demanded an inquiry into the "calamitous" decision.

[Tom]

Too bad the Sopranos is going of the air after this season. Tony Blair's recent actions during the kidnapping made him a shoe-in for the role of.......

Tony "No Balls"

[Steve 'StatMan']

Know why it took almost 2 weeks for Iran to return the hostages?

Their religious views are very strict as to when they can release seamen!

:D