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misscashalot
03-19-2007, 08:23 PM
Not too long ago I paid $24.95 plus tax on Crist's Exotic Betting. I found it garbled, unreadable and a total waste of time. I cannot give specific criticisms since there was nothing there of any substance. Am I alone in this opinion?

Overlay
03-19-2007, 08:31 PM
Check this thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28354&highlight=%22Exotic+Betting%22+Crist

misscashalot
03-19-2007, 08:38 PM
Check this thread:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28354&highlight=%22Exotic+Betting%22+Crist

Thanx seems to be 50-50 who had read it at the time. I noted your comment as well.

blind squirrel
03-19-2007, 08:41 PM
Not too long ago I paid $24.95 plus tax on Crist's Exotic Betting. I found it garbled, unreadable and a total waste of time. I cannot give specific criticisms since there was nothing there of any substance. Am I alone in this opinion?


i loved it,i use the pick 4 strategy all the time.

misscashalot
03-19-2007, 08:51 PM
i loved it,i use the pick 4 strategy all the time.

thank you blindsquirrel, I have the chapter in hand and will read it tonight.

bigmack
03-19-2007, 09:15 PM
I've read worse

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/CGar.jpg

plainolebill
03-19-2007, 09:54 PM
Read anything by Bill Heller.

misscashalot
03-19-2007, 10:39 PM
Read anything by Bill Heller.

No...the books I like the best are by Quinn especially the New Expert Handicappers...also Scotts How Will Your Horse Run Today. What can you suggest by Heller? Thanks for your interest. Matt

JustRalph
03-19-2007, 11:15 PM
Not too long ago I paid $24.95 plus tax on Crist's Exotic Betting. I found it garbled, unreadable and a total waste of time. I cannot give specific criticisms since there was nothing there of any substance. Am I alone in this opinion?


I suggest you try again. I just finished it. I thought it was everything you didn't. I admit, some of the stuff was a little elementary.........but I thought some of the stuff on pools was great.

Garbled? Unreadable? were you drinking? :lol: I didn't think it was garbled or unreadable at all. In fact, I thought it was an easy read.....blew through it overnight

misscashalot
03-19-2007, 11:30 PM
I suggest you try again. I just finished it. I thought it was everything you didn't. I admit, some of the stuff was a little elementary.........but I thought some of the stuff on pools was great.

Garbled? Unreadable? were you drinking? I didn't think it was garbled or unreadable at all. In fact, I thought it was an easy read.....blew through it overnight
:lol: Drinking??? No, however..maybe I should have had a belt before I opened it...It mighta helped :lol: but...putting that all aside....yes Im gonna give it another try. :sleeping:

Im not into swimming since it's freezing now so Ill skip the part about pools until...perhaps this June or July :lol:

Thanks Ralph

plainolebill
03-19-2007, 11:59 PM
After you read something by Heller you'll nominate Crist for the Nobel Prize. :)

misscashalot
03-20-2007, 12:06 AM
After you read something by Heller you'll nominate Crist for the Nobel Prize. :)

Pulitzer perhaps

I just ordered Overlay Overlay from my library.

I though that plainolebill was Bill Heller :confused:

plainolebill
03-20-2007, 12:29 AM
Not me. But I sincerely hope you enjoy his book.

Stevie Belmont
03-20-2007, 12:49 AM
I read the book a few couple of times. I thought the book was a solid read. And I reccomend it.

46zilzal
03-20-2007, 02:18 AM
Laughing in the Hills, Bill Barich a good one.

cj
03-20-2007, 02:35 AM
Worst books I have read, at least in the last several years, are "Off the Charts" by Nick Borg and "Pedigree Handicapping" by Lauren Stich.

Stevie Belmont
03-20-2007, 11:43 AM
What didnt yopu like about Pedigree Handicapping? I never read the book. Im just assuming the book might try to have you pick winners based on pedigree. I have my opinions on pedigree and do think he can be of some importance, too much stock in it is no good either.



Worst books I have read, at least in the last several years, are "Off the Charts" by Nick Borg and "Pedigree Hanicapping" by Lauren Stich.

cj
03-20-2007, 12:50 PM
What didnt yopu like about Pedigree Handicapping? I never read the book. Im just assuming the book might try to have you pick winners based on pedigree. I have my opinions on pedigree and do think he can be of some importance, too much stock in it is no good either.

I think there is definitely importance in pedigree handicapping. However, the book is nothing more than a bunch of poor example races pointing out why such and such horse could have been bet. I don't remember specifics to be honest, but I was thoroughly unimpressed by his work.

DanG
03-20-2007, 01:03 PM
Worst books I have read, at least in the last several years, are "Off the Charts" by Nick Borg.I would like to second the vote for “off the charts”. Nick Borg might be a great guy, but that “book” was mailed in IMHO. :ThmbDown:

BTW: I enjoyed Steve Crist’s "Exotic Betting" for what its worth. :ThmbUp:

Lasix1
03-20-2007, 01:41 PM
I was thoroughly unimpressed by his work.

"He" is a she.....
;)

1st time lasix
03-20-2007, 02:13 PM
[QUOTE=Lasix1]"He" is a she.....
;) Not so sure about that.......LS knows about the breeding .....but I am not going to check the gender

the little guy
03-20-2007, 04:05 PM
Methinks the originator of this thread has an agenda.

ranchwest
03-20-2007, 04:54 PM
Methinks the originator of this thread has an agenda.

He did come back and say he was going to give it another try. And, he did apparently pay $24.95 for the book. Seems like authorization for an opinion, which is like a nose, everyone has one.

misscashalot
03-20-2007, 06:31 PM
Methinks the originator of this thread has an agenda.

I originated this subject..yes I have an agenda..its to find out if I was off base saying Crists book was worthless and a waste of $24.95 plus tax, and if I saw that several of you experts thought it had value, I'd reread it. I started again last night and read the part about P4 which Blind Squirrel suggested was of value to him, and yes it did open my eyes a bit. Mybad? :confused:

Murph
03-21-2007, 05:32 AM
Mybad? :confused:Bad for what? Some folks will put you on an agenda whether you have one or not. Maybe your question/opinion put off some of Mr. Crists' buddies.

andicap
03-21-2007, 12:40 PM
Crist's book was disappointing -- way too short on strategies for betting exotics. He seemed to gloss over a lot of stuff to concentrate on pik-6's.
But to say it was the WORST book ever is a stretch, even given the $25 price tag.

C'mon, Nick Borg's Off the Charts certainly was worse than Crist's.
And I've read a million bad handicapping books in my life that were useless.
Crist's book did have a couple of helpful nuggets, but by and large was unsatisfying. Hardly the worst handicapping book ever.

Heuer
03-21-2007, 03:56 PM
I have read about a 100 books on thoroughbred horse-racing.

I would say that ten of these books are first class reading.
Of course, most of the books have average interest.

I think I own three books by Bill Heller.
The books are not worth paying for.

Top Ten
Steve Davidowitz Betting Thoroughbreds
Richard Sasuly The Search for the Winning Horse
Katcha Goodwon Thinking Man II - The Golden Guide to Handicapping...
Chuck Badone Winning Horseracing Handicapping
Glendon Jones Horse Racing Logic
James Quinn Class of the Field
William L. Quirin Winning at the Races
Henry Kuck Winner's File
Andrew Beyer Beyer on Speed
Dave Litfin Expert Handicapping

Well, I could go on and mention another ten books.
But now I am ready for a good night's sleep.

Indulto
03-21-2007, 05:07 PM
I have read about a 100 books on thoroughbred horse-racing...I've had to stop counting and all that you mentioned sound familiar. Different authors are more valuable at different times in one's horseplaying career and most contribute something of value.

The first book on racing I ever read was "How to win money in one day at the track" by someone I can no longer remember. It was great for picking favorites if you went to Saratoga once a year like my father did. A few years later, Ainslie's books started appearing which converted me from a social outing participant to a Friday night candle-burner and Saturday regular.

Beyer's "Picking Winners" re-kindled that enthusiasm and sent me to Davidowitz's "Betting Thoroughbreds" which had the greatest impact on me. It got me to appreciate how volatile the game is, how to organize the information chaos, and to continully monitor what is and isn't working. I was genuinely delighted to finally hear him the other day.

I've learned a few nuggets here and there from Davis, Mahl, Jones, Quinn, Quirin, Scott, Meadow, Cramer, and Ragozin/Friedman. But I find Crist the most interesting now because IMO he brings a wider persective to his writing and presents his ideas in such an entertaining fashion.

The next book I read will probably be the one about using Formulater by one of the DRF guys. Maybe I'll even finish it before the Form goes paperless. ;)

bobphilo
03-22-2007, 09:28 AM
The first book on racing I ever read was "How to win money in one day at the track" by someone I can no longer remember.


It was written by Charles Romanelli. The first handicapping book I ever read. Still have my old dog-eared copy.

Bob

Indulto
03-22-2007, 03:46 PM
It was written by Charles Romanelli. The first handicapping book I ever read. Still have my old dog-eared copy.

BobThanks, BP. I gave mine to an enthusiastic young lady who was a great date at the track. It didn't improve her game. :bang:

May I assume that our common introduction to racing literature also traces your participation back to the days of Kelso?

bobphilo
03-22-2007, 10:40 PM
Thanks, BP. I gave mine to an enthusiastic young lady who was a great date at the track. It didn't improve her game. :bang:

May I assume that our common introduction to racing literature also traces your participation back to the days of Kelso?

Pretty much. I first saw Kelso win his 5th straight JC Gold Cup on my first visit to the track as a kid. Made my first bet that day, actually my mother bet for me - it was a winner. Didn't get into serious handicapping until a few years later when a veteran recommended the Romanelli book. I found it useful as a beginner in the pre-Beyer days.
Did you get to see Kelly (as we called him) race? Actually my first favorite horse was a game little gelding named Roman Brother, who raced against Northern Dancer in the TC. I saw him run second in the Belmont.

Bob

FUGITIVE77
03-24-2007, 03:07 AM
Best Books Manditory Reading


1. WINNING AT THE RACES (the bible)........ WILLIAM QUIRIN
QUIRIN

2. CYBERCAPPING.................... BUD CHOATE .........(goes for $1000 on ebay)

3. BETTING THOROUGHBREDS............ DAVIDOWITZ

4. BEYER BOOKS (first three)

5. MONEY SECRETS .......BARRY MEADOWS

6. HANDICAPPER’S CONDITION BOOK ..........JAMES QUINN

7. CASHING SIGNERS IN THE DARK ............JACK GIBSON


HONORABLE MENTIONS




1. THOROUGHBRED CYCLES ...........M CRAMER

2. EXPERT HANDICAPPER.............. DAVE LITFIN

3. ON THE JUICE........................ JIMMY TOOTIMES

4. B.E.T.S................................. BOOMER WRY



WAR AND PEACE (puts to sleep)



1. Commonsense Betting............. D MITCHELL

2. Anything by S Crist

Worse Ever

1. Investing at the Racetrack......... W Scott

2. That’s not my Finger! ................Mike Warren

Indulto
03-24-2007, 04:32 AM
... Did you get to see Kelly (as we called him) race? Actually my first favorite horse was a game little gelding named Roman Brother, who raced against Northern Dancer in the TC. I saw him run second in the Belmont.

BobBP,
I did see him run several times, but I didn't fully appreciate his accomplishments at the time. The closest I ever came to having a "favorite horse" was Dr. Fager because of his spirit and power on and off the track. He looked fast and competitive even standing still. I never bet against him.

F7,
IMO Scott's contribution was that he presented a concrete example of how to develop an approach to handicapping. Davidowitz showed us many different tools, but none of them in the detail that Scott did in his. I liked the idea that Scott's "ability times" relied on raw data, not subjectively derived speed ratings.

Huey Mahl was another who showed there were multiple ways to interpret data. I think Crist is to betting what those three were to handicapping. He continually shows how to think about betting and discerning value. I think his work has helped me become more flexible in dealing with the widely varying circumstances presented in each race.

For sheer entertainment, it's a photo between Crist and Beyer. In fairness to Crist, I was more impressionable when I read Beyer who hasn't produced a book in quite a while.

DanG
03-24-2007, 10:47 AM
A close friend has never read a single book on handicapping and he is one of the best players I’ve ever met. I’ve probably read more than most and he is clearly a superior player to me.

Which is the correct approach?

20 years ago I would have said he was nuts and just denying himself the brightest minds in the industry.

20 years later I see his point of view as perfectly valid. He discusses handicapping and betting from a completely unique perspective. I’ve never met anyone who approaches the game exactly as he does and it provides him an edge.

Now…If he was a complete failure, a case is made that he should seek more information. He is an exceptional person however, so this example is a bit extreme. You could parachute him into Wall Street without ever spending a day there and he would figure out a way to survive.

In closing…I agree with “Indulto” that Beyer’s books made a major impression in part because most of us read them in our very impressionable formative years. (And he is a VERY engaging writer) But…If I had to do everything over again, I may try some of my partners approach and incorporate more of a unique perspective that we all at least start out with.

Kelso
03-24-2007, 11:23 PM
A close friend has never read a single book on handicapping and he is one of the best players I’ve ever met.

<snip>

He discusses handicapping and betting from a completely unique perspective. I’ve never met anyone who approaches the game exactly as he does and it provides him an edge.



Would you kindly share some specifics of his technique(s)? Does he use PPs at all? Is he a post parade and/or tote watcher? Aside from winning regularly, does he do anything in common with "the Hat?" Anything would, I'm sure, be instructive to ... and much appreciated by ... this novice.

Thank you.

Greyfox
03-24-2007, 11:44 PM
A close friend has never read a single book on handicapping and he is one of the best players I’ve ever met. I’ve probably read more than most and he is clearly a superior player to me.
I’ve never met anyone who approaches the game exactly as he does and it provides him an edge.


So sit down with a tape recorder and write a book with him.

DanG
03-25-2007, 12:48 AM
Would you kindly share some specifics of his technique(s)? Does he use PPs at all? Is he a post parade and/or tote watcher? Aside from winning regularly, does he do anything in common with "the Hat?" Anything would, I'm sure, be instructive to ... and much appreciated by ... this novice. Thank you.
OK…

Here’s a cop out on two fronts…

1st…His process is very hard to put into words or I frankly would duplicate it myself. As I said, he’s just a better gambler than I.

2nd…If I could spell it out exactly in print I wouldn’t as it would betray a confidence. (Besides, there is very little money in handicapping literature.)

Here’s as vague as I can be without him getting pissed off and still trying not to be a jerk and avoid your question.




No PP’s…Hand written observations that his wife organizes and pulls from a file for today’s entries.
He uses several reports that I make based on positional analysis.
He diagrams his day like clockwork and lays out a betting strategy that is ingenious IMO.
He can lose many pick six’s in a row (As we do and have) and still wake up optimistic. (THAT is an enviable trait in a gambler. :ThmbUp:)
He NEVER consults final time figures of any kind, but he does use some pace ratings.
He only asks me about a trainer if there was a barn switch. (Something I note on his reports.)
This is very hard to explain. I always put things in musical / restaurant terms because that is my frame of reference. Hand a piece of music or recipe to 2 different musicians / chefs and you can get a masterpiece :) / or heartburn. :eek:


Something I’ve said a thousand times since I’ve associate with winning players. FAR too much emphasis is placed on creating the “perfect” information set. I’m frankly a better pure horse player than he (he would be the first to admit it) and yet given the same opportunities he would outperform me more often than not.

He can flat out figure out a way to make money with good opinions. Our group is not alone in “good opinions”. There are thousands of excellent players out there. Yet, there are relatively few who can use that knowledge to show profit.

I hope this at least respected your questions without me getting a phone call tomorrow to shut my big mouth. :blush:

Kelso
03-25-2007, 02:07 AM
I hope this at least respected your questions



Yes, it certainly did.

I understand the difficulty my questions presented, and your discomfort at being too complete in response. However, and without giving away the keys to the mint, you did give me a much clearer picture of how your friend plays the game.

Very interesting, and it gave me a couple thoughts to consider further. Thank you very much.

DanG
03-25-2007, 12:35 PM
Good deal and my phone didn’t ring… ;) One more thing that occurred to me this morning that is critical to his success.

He is not good; he is GREAT at handicapping the public on what they will over react to. This is a much underrated skill to know the competition on your circuit and be able to exploit their tendencies.

OK…Now it’s off to the races…As Harvey Pack would say…”May the horse be with you” :)