NEED RACE TYPE RANKING?

[JustMissed]

Does anyone know where I might find a ranked list of race types.
I saw a ranking of cheap Charlestown races in one of Steve Davidowitz's books but would like to have a ranked list from G1 down to Maiden Claimers.

The allowance races give me a particuliar problem. I have trouble determining if an Alw26000n1x is about the same class as a OC16000Nn1x, for example.

If you know where I could find this(preferrably free on the net), please let me know.

Thanks,

JustMissed
:)

[Big Bill]

Just Missed -

I too would like to find such a list. Hopefully someone will post to this thread a location where one can be found.

While not on the Internet, I can refer you to James Quinn's book, Recrational Handicapping, where he inlcudes two charts (one for major tracks and one for minor tracks)in which he presents class level rankings. They do provide the comparison of claiming with non-claiming races within the class levels which might be of value to you. The charts don't provide class levels within a claiming class as you mentioned finding in David's book, but the charts have been helpful to me.

The charts in Quinn's book reflect the levels he used from the 1980's, when the book was published. I have e-mailed Quinn suggesting that he might update the charts to reflect today's class levels but received no reply from him.

Big Bill

[JustMissed]

Thanks for the info. I hope someone does know where we can get this info.

I have not ever read Quinn's Condition Book but wonder if it might have the race rankings in it. Seems like I read here that this book has been updated and revised.

I think you know where I am coming from. I have missed a lot of races lately like this: I pick the A, B & C horses and they finish 2, 3 & 4 with a horse winning that I did not even have as a contender. When I review my handicapping I often find that the winning horse has some better back class that I missed because I'm don't have the ability to look down the pp's and know immediately what kinda horses these ponies have been running against.

I've got a pretty good handle on form & condition, pace and speed, and the performance and trainer angles, but the race class problem is hard for me to figure out.

I probably should get a good book that explains the progression of a race horse up and down the ranks from it's first race to its last race.

JustMissed
:)

[Larry Hamilton]

I have such a list, though it is twice the size of Excel Limitations. Also, I am not sure if is what you want, it gets a number from the field called Race rating and a name from the field called RaceClasigication. Looks like this:


Track Rating Class
BEL 111.1 Oclm20000NW3LX
BEL 111.1 sAlw46000NW2X
BEL 111.1 sMdSpWt
BEL 111.2 Alw36000NW2X
BEL 111.2 Alw43000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw44000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw45000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw49000NW3L


Let me know which track you wish

[Jake]

Larry,

Those TSN/BRIS race ratings appear really soft, certainly for those trying to create a good class level chart. Makes me think that TSN/BRIS needs to reformulate their race rating algorithm. Or, at least matched to the par numbers.


Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
I have such a list, though it is twice the size of Excel Limitations. Also, I am not sure if is what you want, it gets a number from the field called Race rating and a name from the field called RaceClasigication. Looks like this:


Track Rating Class
BEL 111.1 Oclm20000NW3LX
BEL 111.1 sAlw46000NW2X
BEL 111.1 sMdSpWt
BEL 111.2 Alw36000NW2X
BEL 111.2 Alw43000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw44000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw45000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw49000NW3L


Let me know which track you wish

[Jake]

JustMissed,

Dave Schwartz published a newsletter called the HorseStreet Player some time back, which contained an excellent class level table in several of the issues. It shows everything you asking to see and you can customize it for specific tracks. Not sure Dave has any copies left, but you can try him at horsestreet.com. His track pars are also excellent.

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
I have such a list, though it is twice the size of Excel Limitations. Also, I am not sure if is what you want, it gets a number from the field called Race rating and a name from the field called RaceClasigication. Looks like this:


Track Rating Class
BEL 111.1 Oclm20000NW3LX
BEL 111.1 sAlw46000NW2X
BEL 111.1 sMdSpWt
BEL 111.2 Alw36000NW2X
BEL 111.2 Alw43000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw44000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw45000NW1X
BEL 111.2 Alw49000NW3L


Let me know which track you wish


Thanks Larry but I don't think that is exactly what I need. I use the TSN pp's which show a Race Rating and a Class Rating. TSN's definition of Race Rating is "measures the overall quality of horses which competed in a race-The higher the number, the tougher the competition". TSN numbers are whole numbers but appear to be similiar to yours.

I could be wrong but I think that a horse that finished in a Alw49000NW3L is a much better horse than one that finished in a sMdSpWt. You show one rated at 111.2 and the other at 111.1. I don't think a .1 difference reflects the class of these two different races, but that's the problem.

I would bet money that a good Belmont player who plays that track everyday could tell us in a New York minute the quality differences of all the races at Belmont.

We'll keep looking but thanks again for your reponse.

JustMissed
:)

[JustMissed]

I know Dave post here so I will try to send him a private email to see if he can get me that info.

JustMissed
:)

[jotb]

Hello JustMissed:

If you are seeking all race conditions from every racing circuit, it might be best to try the racetrack websites and download their condition book. You will find an index for each condition book with all the upcoming races at that meet. If you are not sure of the order, I'm sure that if you have any questions about class conditions, many on here will be able to help. Another hint about classifications is purse structure.

Good Luck
Joe

[Tom]

Originally posted by JustMissed
.

The allowance races give me a particuliar problem. I have trouble determining if an Alw26000n1x is about the same class as a OC16000Nn1x, for example.

:)

These optional claimers can be hard to figure out. what I do is to first look at the allowance condition, and if there are lightly raced horses that meet them, I go with them. If thereis nothing that really fits as if it were an allowance race, I treat it as a claimer and use the listed price as the class.

[Doug]

In my opinion there are several adjustments that need to be made to any class chart.

1. time of year. Especially in maiden races where in the early part of the year the races are proably tougher at the same class level as later in the year, although the times in the latter part of the year the times are probably faster as the young horses mature the competition level is made up of mostly losers and in 3 year old races 1st time starters that could not make it to the track until later in the 3 yr old season. Alw races are always difficult because you have somewhat the same situation as with maidens and then you have track class (also with maidens).

2. As with any other handicapping factor there are several caveats in determining class.

3. In claiming races one must be carefull of class drops as the old saying goes "they don't give anything away at the race track".

4. I don't know about other tracks, but Calder cards these b claiming races which are open for 3yr olds, but also include restricted 4 yr olds.

5 The book Kinky Handicapping has (what I think) is an interesting chapter on class.

Doug

[ridersup]

Here is a screwy condition for you.

Tomorrow in race 5 at Churchill Downs the #3 horse Unpeteable is shown as exiting a race described as follows "Alw 8000s". Now all of us know that this is a starters Allowance where the horse must have been entered for a claiming price of 8k during a prescribed period. Normally a good rule of thumb has been to double the starter allowance price and assume that the horse would be competitive in the 16 to 20 k claiming races.

Now for the kicker.

Part of the condition was that the horse must be a grey or roan. So actually it was a starter allowance that excluded a great many of the horses on the grounds.

Im not sure even Dave Schwartz could peg this guys class on the basis of that race.

The sorriest day in my life was when the DRF decided to show the conditions in the various claiming races. Way back when they would just indicate the race was a 4k claimer. Didn't mention it was nw1, nw2, nw1 6mos, nw 1 in a year etc. For those of us that kept track of conditions it was a golden era. Ah for the good ole days.

[Kappa]

Could you use the purse value as a rule of thumb??

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by Kappa
Could you use the purse value as a rule of thumb??

Kappa, As I was reading your post I picked up a couple of old pp's off my desk-what about these purses:

Mountaineer-Race 1, 11/11/02- 6F Claiming Price $5,000, Purse $19,000.(A slot track of course).

Calder-Race 9, 08/26/02-5F Claiming Price $10,000, Purse $11,500.(Not a slot track).

Go figure. Is a 5K claimer inferior to a 10K claimer or is a 19K purse winner twice as good as a horse that wins a 11.5K purse winner?

I still have a lot of puzzle pieces to figure out but the class business seems to be a real doozie and I suspect it is the reason I'm not doing any better than I am.

Maybe I have been playing too many different tracks on the beam and will settle down when Tampa live racing starts back in December and I can watch the same ponies run week end and out.


Let me know.

JustMissed
:confused:

[GR1@HTR]

Why not look at the winning speed and pace figures of each indiviudual race to determine strength of competition. What if a last race was a C10 full of a bunch of chumps and todays race is a competitive C08 with perhaps a strong young C05 class riser?
Class sucks...IMHO look at the individual horse matchups, their ability to win races and run fast, and the how good/bad each trainer/jky is.

[JustMissed]

I forgot to mention that according to my ATM Track Equaliztion Chart Mountaineer and Calder are both Class 4 tracks, with an 11 tick rating difference for sprints.

JustMissed
:)

[GR1@HTR]

Regarding track/class...Something that can be done is to get the win% and ROI for shippers...I'm no brain surgen but I bet CRC shippers would out perform the basic MNR horse. I ran some numbers on MNR shippers a while back...Naturally the best win% come from CD shippers, DEL and Md did ok as well. The bottom rank shippers were RD and BEU.

At other tracks. AP shippers at LAD kicked butt, DEL to SAR, LS to RET, LS to LAD, FG/OP To LS, MAN to LS were 0-83, HOU to LS won 5% and so on...

[JustMissed]

Originally posted by GR1
Why not look at the winning speed and pace figures of each indiviudual race to determine strength of competition. What if a last race was a C10 full of a bunch of chumps and todays race is a competitive C08 with perhaps a strong young C05 class riser?
Class sucks...IMHO look at the individual horse matchups, their ability to win races and run fast, and the how good/bad each trainer/jky is.

I do not know enough to discuss this in an intelligent manner but at this point in time I suspect that the track secretary's Condition Book is the key to the whole damn business. What he is trying to do is to give every horse on the grounds a chance to win every now and then. The owner/trainers are trying their best to race in those races in which they have the greatest chance of winning more than their fair share of those races.

If it were as simply as you purport then a race condition would look like this:

6F Dirt for Mares & Fillies which have never run a Beyer greater than 60 and classified as P or S type horses.
10% or less winning jockeys.
12% or less winning trainers.

This sure would be less work for the RS.

JustMissed
:)