NY Racing

[john del riccio]

My POP always used to say "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything". With all due respect POP, I just have to disagree on this occasion.

The racing in NY has gotten so bad that its like NYBRED showcase day daily..... MDN25 for SB, MDN15 for SB, etc.. 4 & 5 hortse fileds, horse not finishing races, breaking down, and last week there was a 5,000 claimer which was a first. These are just bad horses, their race times are abissmal WRT the purse structure and it is getting worse everyday.

I don't know if its going to get alot better when the inner closes or even when BEL opens but I am really concerned about it. I was speaking to a friend that owns many horses and I was informed that they have STOPPED looking to claim in NY at all because there are no horses worth claiming. Think about that for a while and you can quickly come to the conclusion that playing into many claiming races at th ewindows might not be such a good idea either.

John

[alysheba88]

My POP always used to say "if you don't have anything good to say, don't say anything". With all due respect POP, I just have to disagree on this occasion.

The racing in NY has gotten so bad that its like NYBRED showcase day daily..... MDN25 for SB, MDN15 for SB, etc.. 4 & 5 hortse fileds, horse not finishing races, breaking down, and last week there was a 5,000 claimer which was a first. These are just bad horses, their race times are abissmal WRT the purse structure and it is getting worse everyday.

I don't know if its going to get alot better when the inner closes or even when BEL opens but I am really concerned about it. I was speaking to a friend that owns many horses and I was informed that they have STOPPED looking to claim in NY at all because there are no horses worth claiming. Think about that for a while and you can quickly come to the conclusion that playing into many claiming races at th ewindows might not be such a good idea either.

John


Think you are way way off base on everything. Especially the 4-5 horse fields

[JustRalph]

I don't know, but I looked at todays card and pushed it to the recycle bin...........

[alysheba88]

I am really surprised that so many are giving away money. To me its the easiest track in the country to make money on and has been year in and year out.

Forget the types of races, the alleged "dreariness" isnt betting about making money? Why are people finding it hard to make money at Aqueduct?

[john del riccio]

Where in my post did I mention anything about making money on the inner ?

John

[jma]

Where in my post did I mention anything about making money on the inner ?

John

In your first post, you said "you can quickly come to the conclusion that playing into many claiming races at th ewindows might not be such a good idea either."

You're telling us it's not a good idea to bet on races at Aqueduct. If you don't bet, it's hard to make any money.

As far as field size, keep in mind there's no turf racing. Once that starts up again, you'll have several races a day with nice-sized fields.

[alysheba88]

Its not just john, have read many posts here and on other forums about NY racing. People love Saratoga I understand ( I do too) but how many really make money at Saratoga every year? To me if you want to make money you must play Aqueduct. Much much easier to win

[aaron]

I don't recall anyone saying you can't make money betting Aqueduct. You can make money,but you cannot argue that from a standpoint of quality racing NY is at an all time low. I make money betting Laurel and this winter, I don't see that much difference between Laurel or NY.
Also, I guess other people have noticed,because if you look at attendance on a typical Saturday,I believe Buelah Park and many other tracks outdraw Aqueduct.
So while the low quality of racing in NY can be bet,that doesn't mean overall that it is a good thing for NY.

[1st time lasix]

John and Aaron are absolutely right. Even at the DRF expo in Vegas ..... Litfin was shaking his head frustrated with the NY racing product at the Big A. It is flat terrible. Lousy animals, poor attendance, cold damp winter weather, terrible track. Of course most New Yorkers think the world revolves around them. Particularly their sports fans.

[Ron]

Come on, is NY racing really low quality (compared to other states) or do they just have a problem maintaining consistency throughout the year?

[alysheba88]

I don't recall anyone saying you can't make money betting Aqueduct. You can make money,but you cannot argue that from a standpoint of quality racing NY is at an all time low. I make money betting Laurel and this winter, I don't see that much difference between Laurel or NY.
Also, I guess other people have noticed,because if you look at attendance on a typical Saturday,I believe Buelah Park and many other tracks outdraw Aqueduct.
So while the low quality of racing in NY can be bet,that doesn't mean overall that it is a good thing for NY.

What does attendance have to do with anything?

And why didnt you bring up handle? Do you want to compare handle at Aqueduct and Laurel and Beulah?

Finally I see posts saying they wont bet Aqueduct- thats what I am referring to

[alysheba88]

Come on, is NY racing really low quality (compared to other states) or do they just have a problem maintaining consistency throughout the year?

NY Racing is "really low quality compared to other states". What other states are you talking about?

[alysheba88]

John and Aaron are absolutely right. Even at the DRF expo in Vegas ..... Litfin was shaking his head frustrated with the NY racing product at the Big A. It is flat terrible. Lousy animals, poor attendance, cold damp winter weather, terrible track. Of course most New Yorkers think the world revolves around them. Particularly their sports fans.

At least the true agenda's come out- the anti-NY bias.

And it is bias and I will tell you why.

People piss and moan all day about NY winter racing declining from years past. Well no kidding. That isnt really the argument. Do you think Southern Cal's racing is better than years past? In general race meets are of "lower quality" than in years past. But some of you seem to think this phenomena is solely in NY. All in all, when you still look at everything, from January -December NY racing does not need to take a back seat to any state in the country. Does that mean its like the "good old days"? No, thats another discussion. But people again seem to piling all of racings problems on NY's footstep. Look at the handle from NYRA races and compare to the rest of the country.

Yeah I know NYRA is responsible for "poor weather" as well. Everyone knows that

[misscashalot]

I bet NYRA 12 months of the year. Forget about the quality factor. Even now, at its lowest point, it's better than Laurel or any other track of the right coast even Gulfstream. The bottom line is thars gold in them thar NYRA hills. TB racing is a $ game, the purists who talk about their disgust in the NY lack of quality have nothing better to do but knock NY...they should be cappin' instead of yappin'

[aaron]

I think everyone is missing the point here. NY racing should be held to a higher accountability than other racing venues. If the tracks had been managed more efficently over the years we would not be having this discussion. Alysheba mentions handle,but a big problem facing NY racing is that they are not getting a fair return from the simulcasting sites for their signal.They sold their product to cheaply and have thus deluded the product.

[Ron]

Also, I guess other people have noticed,because if you look at attendance on a typical Saturday,I believe Buelah Park and many other tracks outdraw Aqueduct.
So while the low quality of racing in NY can be bet,that doesn't mean overall that it is a good thing for NY.

Come on, Aqueduct has always been crappy and no one has ever gone.

I don't thinkt here is a point -- this is another one of those Sienfeld threads.

[aaron]

Ron-
You might be right,but Aqueduct has never been as crappy as it is now.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I'm afraid it is not just NY- the Jockey Club 2006 stata just came pout yesterday:
For the 11th year in a row on-track betting is down;
Number and price of horses at auction are up, but total races, starts, and starts per horses are down again.
We know about Green Monkey's injuries, but a 2 yr old auction filly just dropped dead during a recent auction.
I could go on about nig shot trainers having horse and personal drug problems, and the big shot horsrs dying due to track injuries, the Jockey Disabled Fund going broke whila jockeys are not permitted to put ads on their pants. but you get the picture: more owners with less opportunity, jockeys at risk (remember their nY hospital protest?) on cripples.
On the opther hand, I hear the safety conscience and sponsor littered auto racing sport is doing OK; their crowds seem to have overlooked their ONE big cheating scandal.

[alysheba88]

I think everyone is missing the point here. NY racing should be held to a higher accountability than other racing venues. If the tracks had been managed more efficently over the years we would not be having this discussion. Alysheba mentions handle,but a big problem facing NY racing is that they are not getting a fair return from the simulcasting sites for their signal.They sold their product to cheaply and have thus deluded the product.

aaron, you have made it clear here, day after day, post after post, that you think NYRA is responsible for all racings ills. That all problems, even at non-NYRA tracks is NYRA related. That NYRA is to blame for every negative trend in racing. We get it :)

[alysheba88]

I'm afraid it is not just NY- the Jockey Club 2006 stats just came yesterday:
For the 11th year in a row on-track betting is down;
Number and price of horses at auction are up, but total races, starts, and starts per horses are down again.
We know about Green Monkey's injuries, but a 2 yr old auction filly just dropped dead during a recent auction.
I could go on about big shot trainers having horse and personal drug problems, and the big shot horses dying due to track injuries, the Jockey Disabled Fund going broke while jockeys are not permitted to put ads on their pants. but you get the picture: more owners with less opportunity, jockeys at risk (remember their nY hospital protest?) on cripples.
On the opther hand, I hear the safety conscience and sponsor littered auto racing sport is doing OK; their crowds seem to have overlooked their ONE big cheating scandal.

You are missing the point. Each and every one of those problems are solely due to NYRA. Lack of TC winner is also NYRA's fault for making the Belmont too hard.

[samyn on the green]

I bet NYRA 12 months of the year. Forget about the quality factor. Even now, at its lowest point, it's better than Laurel or any other track of the right coast even Gulfstream. The bottom line is thars gold in them thar NYRA hills. TB racing is a $ game, the purists who talk about their disgust in the NY lack of quality have nothing better to do but knock NY...they should be cappin' instead of yappin'Bravo to you cashalot. Have I complained before? Yes but always after a losing day. The bottom line is that they card the horses that they have on the grounds. If you have a problem with that tell the public to buy/breed better horses.

[john del riccio]

In your first post, you said "you can quickly come to the conclusion that playing into many claiming races at th ewindows might not be such a good idea either."

You're telling us it's not a good idea to bet on races at Aqueduct. If you don't bet, it's hard to make any money.

As far as field size, keep in mind there's no turf racing. Once that starts up again, you'll have several races a day with nice-sized fields.

I will be more explicit given the misunderstanding. If owners are unwilling to claim horses because they are unsound, playing into those races is much more risky.

JOhn

[john del riccio]

At least the true agenda's come out- the anti-NY bias.

And it is bias and I will tell you why.

People piss and moan all day about NY winter racing declining from years past. Well no kidding. That isnt really the argument. Do you think Southern Cal's racing is better than years past? In general race meets are of "lower quality" than in years past. But some of you seem to think this phenomena is solely in NY. All in all, when you still look at everything, from January -December NY racing does not need to take a back seat to any state in the country. Does that mean its like the "good old days"? No, thats another discussion. But people again seem to piling all of racings problems on NY's footstep. Look at the handle from NYRA races and compare to the rest of the country.

Yeah I know NYRA is responsible for "poor weather" as well. Everyone knows that

alysheba,

You bring up a good point, SOCAL racing has also degraded from recently. But i definitely have to say the rate at which NY's racing has fallen is
much steeper.

JOhn

[alysheba88]

I will be more explicit given the misunderstanding. If owners are unwilling to claim horses because they are unsound, playing into those races is much more risky.

JOhn

One man's risk is another man's wealth. Bring it on

[ELA]

I think this type of discussion tends to overlook certain realities. A race office and track management for the most part, as part of their fundamental motivation, wants to card competitive races. Whether or not I, or anyone else feels that the races are competitive is independent from the fact that the races are carded with the horses that are part of the "community" that is available. Sure, NYRA may be losing horses to other tracks. But if the races weren't competitive, certain "lost" horses wouldn't be "lost" -- they would stay for the so called noncompetitive racing.

As an owner, my goal is to race in the easiest spot I can and for the biggest purse I can. For horses I have, let's say in NY, I read conditions books from all over the Northeast, and for other parts of the country where I may have other horses as well. I look for value, for spots to accomplish my goal. The end result -- of anyone racing anywhere -- is the product for the bettor, and I am one of those people as well.

I often here people "bash" NYRA and blame them for the NY bred program and the noncompetitive racing that allegedly exists in NY. Where does this alleged problem begin and end? Are we confusing cause and effect here?

On the other hand, yes, it can be a very interesting discussion. However, outside of the discussion, there sometimes seems to be a level of "hostility" that exceeds a person who is merely unhappy with the competitiveness, or lack thereof, of racing. If you actually go to the track and geographically that's the only game in town (your town), hey, I understand that. However, if you are playing at OTB, on the internet, phone accounts, etc. -- I think your solution is a very simple one . . . don't play that circuuit's racing.

Eric

[aaron]

Alysheba-
I won't critcize NYRA,if you tell me what positive thing they have done to make racing better. You have defended everything about NYRA,but the most positive thing you have said is Bill Nader is a nice guy. I'm sure your a nice guy also,but that doesn't mean you should be running NYRA.

[PaceAdvantage]

If owners are unwilling to claim horses because they are unsound, playing into those races is much more risky.

I believe you have gone from "a friend that owns many horses" who has stopped claiming to "owners are unwilling to claim," implying more than one....

I don't know about you, but I see claims on a regular basis, some races, more than one. Contessa, Dutrow, Levine, etc. all seem to be claiming as much as usual....

Winning Move is claiming lots of horses and winning lots of races....

So, besides your friend, what other data do you have to support the claim that "owners are unwilling to claim" and how does this data compare to past winter meets at Aqueduct?

[ELA]

I believe you have gone from "a friend that owns many horses" who has stopped claiming to "owners are unwilling to claim," implying more than one....

I don't know about you, but I see claims on a regular basis, some races, more than one. Contessa, Dutrow, Levine, etc. all seem to be claiming as much as usual....

Winning Move is claiming lots of horses and winning lots of races....

So, besides your friend, what other data do you have to support the claim that "owners are unwilling to claim" and how does this data compare to past winter meets at Aqueduct?

I do know several owners who are not claiming or looking to claim in NY -- in order to race in NY that is. Yes, some of them are bigger owners. Often, an owner's perspective and a bettor's perspective, if they are not clouding the two, are at opposite ends of the extreme. As an owner, you need to have a certain mindset in order to have a successful business model. With blinders on, in a very narrow minded viewpoint, every time I put a horse on the track -- I want to be 3-5! That might be a discussion for another time, LOL.

Look at some of the other big owners -- they are not claiming at all, or not nearly anywhere near the levels they used. I don't want to get into names here, as some of these people are friends, aquantances, etc. Also, don't forget -- you have a very long jail period here. I don't know if the overall # of claims are down, but it would not shock me if they were down substantially.

Contessa will always claim a lot in the winter, for strategic reasons. Without getting into too many details, there are moves he can make in the winter that he can't make during other racing seasons. He also has a lot of power in the winter and gears up for this time of year. Check out the # of starts he has compared to anyone else. Do you think he has twice as many horses as Bruce Levine?

Speaking of Bruce Levine, and I speak from very personal experience -- in reality, he is not that active at the claiming box. For the size of his barn, his stats, etc. -- he does not claim a lot. He has very high standards and that is part of the reason he is an excellent trainer. Most of the horses that come into his barn are sent to him.

I think you will soon see people starting to claim in order to race elsewhere -- people gearing up for Monmouth, Finger Lakes, etc.

Eric

[highnote]

The racing in NY has gotten so bad that its like NYBRED showcase day daily..... John

This too shall pass.

As soon as NY awards a license for the new franchise there will be a major about-face. In the meantime, we may as well roll with the punches.

By the way... in 25 years (or whatever the period will be), when this new license is up for renewal, we'll be seeing similar things.

[john del riccio]

I believe you have gone from "a friend that owns many horses" who has stopped claiming to "owners are unwilling to claim," implying more than one....

I don't know about you, but I see claims on a regular basis, some races, more than one. Contessa, Dutrow, Levine, etc. all seem to be claiming as much as usual....

Winning Move is claiming lots of horses and winning lots of races....

So, besides your friend, what other data do you have to support the claim that "owners are unwilling to claim" and how does this data compare to past winter meets at Aqueduct?

NY simply has bad, recycled, overraced, & unsound horses. Dutrow isn't claiming nearly as many horses as he once was. As for Contessa, he has taken advantge of Dutrows fall off and has always excelled on the inner. I am simply going by what folks I know in the business are telling me and what I see from making the figs and they are in sync; the racing stock is poor in NY right now and has been getting worse for some time.

I love NY racing, thats why this bugs me so much. Hopefully when all the quality comes back from thir winter hiatus' the fiields will get bigger, the racing will get better, and we won't be seeing races where the horses look like they are ready for a nap at the 1/4 pole.

John

[Robert Vaughan]

NYRA is but one side of the coin and I hope they think outside the box as they try to solve their problems ... long term, the fate of those tracks that operate as Gambling Mecas, that just happen to have horseracing on the menu, will be even worse ... and they will do much to kill the sport as we know it, especially its heart and soul.

As technology replaces romance in the sport, so too will the ability to make money while enjoying the happening. I imagine that horseracing will survive in New York and elsewhere too ... but, when the primary focus of sport becomes business ... controlled by interests not interested in the sport itself; whether it be baseball, golf, fishing or 6 furlongs around the track ... something is lost and we're the losers.

New York might be one of the few places where there's some chance to recapture some of that which we have been losing for the last several decades ... here's hoping!

[aaron]

John-
It appears to me quality will return to NY racing when the slots are implemented.
I've heard Yonkers Raceway is taking away horses from the Meadowlands since the inception of the slot machines.

[john del riccio]

Aaron

They have been talking about slots forever, I'll beleive it when I see it.

John

[alysheba88]

Alysheba-
I won't critcize NYRA,if you tell me what positive thing they have done to make racing better. You have defended everything about NYRA,but the most positive thing you have said is Bill Nader is a nice guy. I'm sure your a nice guy also,but that doesn't mean you should be running NYRA.

Lowered takeouts
Progressive pick 3,4 rules on scratches
Progressive rules on pick 6 races coming off the turf
Stricter drug testing than other states
Quality racing
Excellent handicapping contests
Appreciation for history

[alysheba88]

Aaron

They have been talking about slots forever, I'll beleive it when I see it.

John

Do you know why slots are not in place now at Aqueduct?

[alysheba88]

NY simply has bad, recycled, overraced, & unsound horses. Dutrow isn't claiming nearly as many horses as he once was. As for Contessa, he has taken advantge of Dutrows fall off and has always excelled on the inner. I am simply going by what folks I know in the business are telling me and what I see from making the figs and they are in sync; the racing stock is poor in NY right now and has been getting worse for some time.

I love NY racing, thats why this bugs me so much. Hopefully when all the quality comes back from thir winter hiatus' the fiields will get bigger, the racing will get better, and we won't be seeing races where the horses look like they are ready for a nap at the 1/4 pole.

John

Care to comment on Dutrow's numerous suspensions?

[Spendabuck85]

Do you know why slots are not in place now at Aqueduct?

Only previous administration - Pataki & Co. knows for sure but it looked to me like they wanted NYRA to fail. How can they explain passing upwards of $300 million in revenue to the state. Was it Atlantic City, New Jersey casino interests (Trump, etc) influencing them? Or was it personal with NYRA?
NYRA filing for bankruptcy and putting the land issue in the forefront was a great move which I believe will ultimately keep them the racing franchise with a partner on the racino side.

[aaron]

Alysheba
Lower takeout- As far as I can see,the take out has been raised on wps betting and other jurisdictions have lower rates on exotic,pick 3 and pick 6 bets.
Drug testing- They have not changed anything with their detention barns and they have not made an example of anyone caught.
Quality Racing- I guess you call NY Bred races and 15000 md claiming races quality races. Do you have NYRA mixed up with Finger Lakes.
NYRA has a great appreciation for history,thats why they put their paintings up for auction.
Also NYRA has raised the prices on Belmont Stakes tickets and Saratoga reserved tickets.
They have put in betting machines,that can be described as cumbersom at best.
NYRA has also taken away free admission to account holders,which of course they blame on Spitzer.
I agree with you on the scratch policies.
The last time the takeout was lowered was under Barry Schwartz and the politicians forced him out.

[aaron]

I agree with Spend A Buck, it certainly seems the Pataki administration wanted NYRA to fail. Nobody seems to know what NYRA did to fall out of favor with the politicians. I always had the impression NYRA was just another political agency,but something happened to change that.

[alysheba88]

Alysheba
Lower takeout- As far as I can see,the take out has been raised on wps betting and other jurisdictions have lower rates on exotic,pick 3 and pick 6 bets.
Drug testing- They have not changed anything with their detention barns and they have not made an example of anyone caught.
Quality Racing- I guess you call NY Bred races and 15000 md claiming races quality races. Do you have NYRA mixed up with Finger Lakes.
NYRA has a great appreciation for history,thats why they put their paintings up for auction.
Also NYRA has raised the prices on Belmont Stakes tickets and Saratoga reserved tickets.
They have put in betting machines,that can be described as cumbersom at best.
NYRA has also taken away free admission to account holders,which of course they blame on Spitzer.
I agree with you on the scratch policies.
The last time the takeout was lowered was under Barry Schwartz and the politicians forced him out.


I won money again today. Did you? Or do you just piss and moan? Seriously do you bet?

[aaron]

Alysheba-
As a matter of fact,I've won money everyday this week. I'm glad you won money,this way you can contribute to NYRA to lessen the strain on them.

[alysheba88]

Alysheba-
As a matter of fact,I've won money everyday this week. I'm glad you won money,this way you can contribute to NYRA to lessen the strain on them.

You have proven your ignorance once again.

My winning (or losing) has nothing to do with NYRA. Are you on of those squares who does not understand handle?

[aaron]

Alysheba
I must have misunderstood you,I thought you were going to help bail them out of bankruptcy. I'm so impressed with your success,I'd wish you could outline your strategies,so that everyone on this board could be as successful as you. If you don't understand sarcasm, I suggest you look it up in the dictionary. The words are arranged alphabetically.

[xciceroguy]

I used to say the same thing about the California tracks but since Hollywood has put in the artificial surface i think most trainers are training the horses over there on the softer surface and running at Santa Anita takes less toll on the horse's. Just last year the Ca. tracks had plenty of 5 or less fields. That seems to have stopped. About the N.Y. tracks i to believe this is the place to make money. I have more good days than bad in N.Y.

[alysheba88]

Alysheba
I must have misunderstood you,I thought you were going to help bail them out of bankruptcy. I'm so impressed with your success,I'd wish you could outline your strategies,so that everyone on this board could be as successful as you. If you don't understand sarcasm, I suggest you look it up in the dictionary. The words are arranged alphabetically.

Dont worry, soon as you said you won every day I knew you werent serious. I would not be surprised if you didnt even bet at all.

[aaron]

Alysheba-
I didn't say I win every day. I said I won everyday this week.I know,that nobody does better than you. I wouldn't even try to be as good as you,because you have made it clear that this is an easy game for you. For me,its still a tough game. You have such great knowledge of the game,why don't you post your picks,so eveyone will see how smart you are. I'm vastley impressed with your knowledge of NYRA.
One question for you. Do you believe a group headed by Charles Haywood could run a gambling franchise,better than group that includes Steve Wynn.Its my opinion that the politicians will not let the Wynn group in,but I'd be interested in your opinion.
PS please, post your picks,so we all can be enlightened with your great handicapping expertise.

[alysheba88]

Alysheba-
I didn't say I win every day. I said I won everyday this week.I know,that nobody does better than you. I wouldn't even try to be as good as you,because you have made it clear that this is an easy game for you. For me,its still a tough game. You have such great knowledge of the game,why don't you post your picks,so eveyone will see how smart you are. I'm vastley impressed with your knowledge of NYRA.
One question for you. Do you believe a group headed by Charles Haywood could run a gambling franchise,better than group that includes Steve Wynn.Its my opinion that the politicians will not let the Wynn group in,but I'd be interested in your opinion.
PS please, post your picks,so we all can be enlightened with your great handicapping expertise.

Not sure where these cheap shots are coming from. Where have I said no one does better than me? That this is an easy game? All I have said is I think from a betting perspective Aqueduct has proven to be a good track for me year in and year out. I wish the other tracks were as easy to figure out. You will never read me saying Belmont and Saratoga are easy thats for sure.

I am not looking to prove anything nor in posting picks. I dont care if you think I lose every bet I make.

As far as Steve Wynn, I think some of his business acumen is highly overrated. Have stayed at his properties and not that impressed. Do I think him and other casino mogels could run the NYRA franchise? Quite possibly. Although if you look at how sports and horse bettors are treated in Vegas I would not be optimistic. Sports and horse players are treated as a nuisance at most casinos. And are afraid to take bets from knowledgeable sports bettors. So again would not be optimistic. Would love to see a guy like Mark Cuban get involved. Someone young with a fresh perspective.

[aaron]

I agree with some of what you said. I too, would like to see someone like Mark Cuban get involved. I'm not so sure Steve Wynn's business acumen is highly overrated. I wish I bought stock in his casino's.
As for how sports bettors and horseplayers are treated in Vegas,I've been to most of the big casino's in Vegas and have never had a problem.I have always been treated well. I have never tried to get comped or get anything for free from the casino's,so I really have no knowledge of how they treat horseplayers who are huge bettors. As for sports betting,I have no frame of reference.
If you feel, I've taken cheap shots,I apologize. It is not my intent to take cheap shots. It is my intent to respond to comments made that different points of view. I think that is what this has been all about.

[aaron]

Steve Crist has an article in the form on NY racing. I think it pretty well summarizes many of the comments I have made.I don't think anyone can say that Crist is anti NYRA.

[alysheba88]

Steve Crist has an article in the form on NY racing. I think it pretty well summarizes many of the comments I have made.I don't think anyone can say that Crist is anti NYRA.

Did you read the whole article?

Did you see where he mentioned winter racing had been improving in recent years before this? Did you see where he laid blame (and where he didnt)?

[aaron]

Alysheba-
I read the article. This year is not recent years. Even you,would have to admit racing has gone downhill this year. Crist,who favors NYRA is at least realistic in his views. He blames the politics of racing for some of rhe decline,but in essence,he points out NYRA has not been doing their job.With this pointed out,he is saying that the Haywood group has beem less than formidable.

[alysheba88]

Alysheba-
I read the article. This year is not recent years. Even you,would have to admit racing has gone downhill this year. Crist,who favors NYRA is at least realistic in his views. He blames the politics of racing for some of rhe decline,but in essence,he points out NYRA has not been doing their job.With this pointed out,he is saying that the Haywood group has beem less than formidable.

Wow you sure put words in his mouth (and mine too).

Yes the quality is less this year than in past years. Who denies that? Winter racing had been on an upward cycle.

Its all about slots. With the bankruptcy and political nonsense over slots. uncertainty about the future ownership of the franchise, and Gulfstream increasing their purses yes decline was inevitable. Again, I am well aware that you believe all these things are NYRAs fault. But the author is not saying that.

[1st time lasix]

Aaron....can't you see by now that Alysheba will never allow anyone else get the last word in as he steadfastly defends NY? As I stated before...no matter the real facts or evidence in the case....this particular NY "mindset" believes that their way is the only way.... and all the events, lifestyle, people, sports team, media etc. located there are all so much better than anywhere else in the world. What's more....the obnoxious self-absorbed NY types that spew this garbage generally can't say it loudly enough. The rest of us "poor" souls are just forced to roll our eyes. Just understand it and let it go. :lol:

[aaron]

Alysheba
Quote from Crist,his words not yours or mine-"NewYork simply should not be putting on races where only one horse has even a flicker of ability and where it can round up only three capable of running a Beyer in excess of 0".
Another quote from Crist-" There is plenty of blame to go around in a state that has willfully bankrupted the tracks and forced their executives to devote their time to franchise bids and court appearencrs instead of attending to the product and the customers."
Contrary to your opinion,I don't solely blame NYRA.I feel the politicians are also responsiable.
Also,I believe for many years NYRA was run like a agency of the government.Something went wrong in the relationship and that has never been addressed.

[alysheba88]

Aaron....can't you see by now that Alysheba will never allow anyone else get the last word in as he steadfastly defends NY? As I stated before...no matter the real facts or evidence in the case....this particular NY "mindset" believes that their way is the only way.... and all the events, lifestyle, people, sports team, media etc. located there are all so much better than anywhere else in the world. What's more....the obnoxious self-absorbed NY types that spew this garbage generally can't say it loudly enough. The rest of us "poor" souls are just forced to roll our eyes. Just understand it and let it go. :lol:

What am I defending? What facts and events are you referring to?

By the way dont live in NY, lol

[alysheba88]

Alysheba
Quote from Crist,his words not yours or mine-"NewYork simply should not be putting on races where only one horse has even a flicker of ability and where it can round up only three capable of running a Beyer in excess of 0".
Another quote from Crist-" There is plenty of blame to go around in a state that has willfully bankrupted the tracks and forced their executives to devote their time to franchise bids and court appearencrs instead of attending to the product and the customers."
Contrary to your opinion,I don't solely blame NYRA.I feel the politicians are also responsiable.
Also,I believe for many years NYRA was run like a agency of the government.Something went wrong in the relationship and that has never been addressed.

Wlllfully bankrupted them.

And yes the quality of racing is down. No argument there

[aaron]

1st time lasix-
your probably right.I have probably attended the races in NY more in one month than Alysheba has attended them in his life,but he is the expert on NY racing.
MY last questions
to Alysheba
Why did the state willfully bankrupt NYRA ? What happened ?Where was their gain ?
Why was the patronage that NYRA enjoyed for so many years taken from them by the state ?

[alysheba88]

1st time lasix-
your probably right.I have probably attended the races in NY more in one month than Alysheba has attended them in his life,but he is the expert on NY racing.
MY last questions
to Alysheba
Why did the state willfully bankrupt NYRA ? What happened ?Where was their gain ?
Why was the patronage that NYRA enjoyed for so many years taken from them by the state ?

When you guys want to get past insults and start discussion let me know. I tried giving you the benefit of the doubt, especially when you apologized but you cant let go. First paragraph is uncalled for (and inaccurate). As were 1st lasix's comments. My willful bankrupt comment was based on what the author said. I would be more than happy to discuss but dont think either of you are looking to be civil.

[aaron]

Alysheba-
I don'e see where I insulted you. I called you an expert on NY racing.It is apparent to me that is how you see yourself. When I comment that the state government has culpability as well as NYRA, you ignore my comment and say that I blame NYRA for all thats wrong with NY racing. When I ask you to answer questions that have merit,you just ignore them. The last 4 questions I asked you,if answered would probably explain this mess. I know, I can answer them,perhaps you can.

[aaron]

Alysheba-
I had a typo-
I can't answer those questions,perhaps you can.

[Indulto]

http://drf.com/news/article/83135.html (http://drf.com/news/article/83135.html)
New Yorkers putting on sorry show of late By STEVEN CRIST

… New York simply should not be putting on races where only one horse has even a flicker of ability and where it can round up only three capable of running a Beyer in excess of 0.

… Sometimes it seems that the only part of New York racing that is truly growing is the number of very bad races among very slow horses.http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37975 (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37975)
Panelists: Don't Blame Product for Racing's Woes by Tom LaMarra

… Christiansen said the product--horse racing--is fine; the problem is with the business model and demand for the product. He said slots won’t change the business model because they are a different product from racing, and he said questions are being raised in some states whether it’s good public policy to subsidize racing.

[pandy]

The quality of racing certainly was horrible this winter, but you could still win consistently if you just bet every speed horse that drew the rail going two turns. Interesting thing is, I really don't believe that the track has a strong speed bias. The reason why so many horses shake loose and wire the fields going two turns is that most of the horses in the race are slow plodders who aren't fast enough to press the action, consequently, any horse that has some quickness can dictate a slow pace. Then when the leader comes into the stretch on a clear lead, who's going to catch it? The plodders?

Pandy

[cj]

It isn't just New York. Today, we had 44% of the races run at Gulfstream being maiden claimers. The rest weren't much either. Too many tracks, not enough quality horses.

[pandy]

No doubt the quality of racing isn't what it used to be, and the horses are fragile. The breeders are largely responsible, in my opinion. Hopefully tracks like Polytrack will be less speed favoring and force Breeders to revert to classic endurance breeding. Another thing that could improve racing is slots. If you look at some of the harness tracks that have slots, the purses are amazing, Yonkers, Dover Downs are two that come to mind. This could bring a lot more owners into the game and higher purses should result in better horses.

[alysheba88]

Rumour is Bill Nader headed to Hong Kong Racing Association. If true, a good move for both. As a horseplayer who bets NYRA not happy, but good for him. Hong Kong Racing is a top class organization and it says something (again if true) that they want him.

[john del riccio]

http://drf.com/news/article/83135.html (http://drf.com/news/article/83135.html)
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37975 (http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37975)


This is exactly what I stated at the top of this thread. The figures some of these horses are earning in NY look like PENN NATIONAL has beens.

CJ brought up an interesting point, too many tracks, too much racing. This
is a very real scenario. No one gives horses time off anymore when they go sour. Claimers are simply "cut in half" and thrown back on the track. This business used to be a sport, not its ALL business.

The solution of seasonal meets and time off will be met with much resitance by trainers and owners. PHA runs year round for example. Is this good for the horses ? Obviously not, but trainers get their dayrate and jocks get their riding fees. Owners foot the bill for ALL OF IT so maybe its up to the owners to pull back.

JOhn

[alysheba88]

This is exactly what I stated at the top of this thread. The figures some of these horses are earning in NY look like PENN NATIONAL has beens.

CJ brought up an interesting point, too many tracks, too much racing. This
is a very real scenario. No one gives horses time off anymore when they go sour. Claimers are simply "cut in half" and thrown back on the track. This business used to be a sport, not its ALL business.

The solution of seasonal meets and time off will be met with much resitance by trainers and owners. PHA runs year round for example. Is this good for the horses ? Obviously not, but trainers get their dayrate and jocks get their riding fees. Owners foot the bill for ALL OF IT so maybe its up to the owners to pull back.

JOhn

Actually we bettors foot the bill for all of racing.

Agree there is too much racing and also think there are too many tracks.

[john del riccio]

Actually we bettors foot the bill for all of racing.

Agree there is too much racing and also think there are too many tracks.

Bettors foot the bills for purses and maintaining the track. Owners foot the bill to feed the horses, pay the trainers, pay the jocks, and the vets. There would be no game without either and since the bettors have been unable to exact change, I was pointing out that maybe its up to the owners.

John

[alysheba88]

Bettors foot the bills for purses and maintaining the track. Owners foot the bill to feed the horses, pay the trainers, pay the jocks, and the vets. There would be no game without either and since the bettors have been unable to exact change, I was pointing out that maybe its up to the owners.

John

The owners are the ones who have caused the problem with the horseman. Expecting change or reform from them doesnt make sense to me. I would argue that bettors pay all the other stuff you mention above but will save that for another day. Just like the fans in baseball fund their sport. But in racing I understand the fans are held in low regard.

[john del riccio]

The owners are the ones who have caused the problem with the horseman. Expecting change or reform from them doesnt make sense to me. I would argue that bettors pay all the other stuff you mention above but will save that for another day. Just like the fans in baseball fund their sport. But in racing I understand the fans are held in low regard.

Alysheba,

Please state exactly why you think owners are the ones who have caused the problem.

John

[alysheba88]

Alysheba,

Please state exactly why you think owners are the ones who have caused the problem.

John

Sincere question or interregation?

And by the way I said owners and horseman. So lets first agree on what I am saying. If we cant agree on that, then no point in the rest

[john del riccio]

Sincere question or interregation?

And by the way I said owners and horseman. So lets first agree on what I am saying. If we cant agree on that, then no point in the rest

I am both a bettor and an owner so I have a decent perspective on both which is why I am asking what your reasoning is.

From a bettors perspective , to exact change, you stop betting into the pool. From an owners perspective, you don't put horses on the track. Its that simple but not very paletable.

John

[alysheba88]

I am both a bettor and an owner so I have a decent perspective on both which is why I am asking what your reasoning is.

From a bettors perspective , to exact change, you stop betting into the pool. From an owners perspective, you don't put horses on the track. Its that simple but not very paletable.

John

I think trainers and owners are very short sighted. Not all so please excuse my bluntness. They dont seem to care a whit about the bettor. Whether talking about takeout, racing quality, drugs, betting pool integrity. Bettor is completely abused and disregarded and looked upon with scorn. No possible good will ever come until that attitude changes. You cannot treat your customers with contempt.

Year round racing is an example of this short sightedness.

Whenever tracks try to cut back days there is always protest from horseman. Always. Seen it first hand in NJ.

Instead of having shorter meets, allowing horses time to rest, which in turn could lead to fuller fields when they do run, higher purses, more betting, etc, its year round racing. Have no way of proving this but think the same money could be made with less racing then with more. Ie; less races, bigger fields lead to more betting. Which benefits everyone. But horseman will never go for that.

Also think stakes races have become an utter joke. Every joker looks for a 3-4 horse field- doesnt want to run against any competition. Want to get a cheap grade one or two win for the resume- and thats a whole another issue- breeders have really hurt the game too. Horse gets asked to carry 126 pounds and everyone starts crying and screaming.

I understand owning horses for many is a passion and they really love it and mean well. That most will lose money and its not something to get into to make money. But at the same time the honest owners and trainers let their own livelihood be adversely affected by the cheats. Racing covers up for their own all the time especially when it comes to performance enhancing drugs. Owners and trainers could clean up the game if they wanted. But they dont want to. Only conclusion I can come to.

And just once I would love to see an owner speak out against a takeout increase. Other than Barry Schwartz never have seen it.

[jma]

Speaking of Pennsylvania tracks, I know when they passed the simulcast law part of it was a provision that tracks had to have live racing a certain number of days (200 I believe) in order to have full-card simulcasting. The horsemen wanted assurance they wouldn't be phased out in favor of more and more simulcasting. That's why Philly Park and Penn National run roughly 4 days a week year-round. Penn got permission not to do it right now because of their construction. I don't know if the law still applies or if the new "racinos" have to follow it, but that's what led to the 4-day weeks. I imagine if they ever tried to cut back, the horsemen would go crazy.

[Kelso]

when they passed the simulcast law part of it was a provision that tracks had to have live racing a certain number of days (200 I believe)

<snip>

that's what led to the 4-day weeks.



I agree with requiring a minimum number of race days for a track to be a racino. Otherwise, the racing will soon virtually - if not actually - disappear. Also think simulcast/OTB should be allowed everywhere with/without associated tracks. But, wherever and for whatever reason they exist, days/year racing minimums should be prorated to account for climate.

I like Philadelphia racing, but will support it only between April and September. Pennsylvania should either reduce the minimum or require Phlly et al to race more days per week ... and then close down racing for the coldest months while continuing simulcast operations.

Is there a physical (track conditioning?) reason for tracks to not be open 7 days a week in-season ... or is it primarily a financial consideration?

[JPinMaryland]

What about all these gamblers who play 5 or 6 tracks a day? They go to simulcast places and play all over the world. I have a friend who goes with us to Pimlico and plays every single race for like $20. What the hell for? Cant you a single one for $100 for crissakes??

[JustMissed]

Think you are way way off base on everything. Especially the 4-5 horse fields

Why do you feel compelled to "Quote" every post you reply to?

I realize some of us are getting long in the tooth and have a short memory span but when you are Post #2, I don't think you need to quote post #1 for us to keep up.

Bandwidth cost PA money and in general cost us all money.

With the high cost of energy and global warming and such, I would think you might want to conserve were you can......or perhaps you are one of those guys who drives a hummer and keeps the water running while he brushes his teeth!

JM

p.s. You can use the Quote button and then delete/backspace the text that is not relevant to your response. This helps with the bandwidth problem and also spares us readers from looking at the same damn post over and over and over.

[NY BRED]

is that the reason the jockey isn't shown on your avatar?


:lol:

[alysheba88]

Can see I have another fan in Just Missed.

Another who lives to knock others

Why not try being constructive instead of making idiotic assumptions? Sorry for "costing you money". Think we should limit every post to five words or less what to you think?

By the way I drive a Prius and have for some time.

[Indulto]

Can see I have another fan in Just Missed.

Another who lives to knock others

Why not try being constructive instead of making idiotic assumptions? Sorry for "costing you money". Think we should limit every post to five words or less what to you think?

By the way I drive a Prius and have for some time.A8,
Please don’t take this as piling on, but the Prius reference is no more a shelter from detractors than your NJ residence. I’m sure 1TL would be willing to extend his distaste for New Yorkers to those entering by tunnel or bridge. ;)

As one with many formative years spent in upper New York State conditioned to be wary of brash, fast-talking New York City residents, I was amazed not only at how at home I later felt working among them, but also at how little esteem many of them held for even their cultural counterparts in the geographically undesirable “Garden State.” :D

In the L.A., San Jose, and S.F. areas, Prius owners are presumed to be persons pursuing politically-incorrect purchases of dispensation from Diamond Lane restrictions -- exceeded in their commuting villainy only by the politicians corrupted by carmaker(s). :lol:

Re: your post #73, let me just say that there is plenty of blame to go around among all racing’s participants, particularly among those regarding the game/sport primarily as an exercise where any competive edge is justified to extract profits. Owners and bettors are NOT natural enemies and IMO neither group can change things without the other, and without majority support within each group.

JM,
Why did you single out A8 for this perceived offense? Actually I think the quotation facility is one of the board’s most underused features. I agree that focusing on specific portions is a good idea from a relevance rather than bandwidth standpoint. I'd like to see more selective bolding to readily distinguish points of agreement, disagreement, and/or interest as one avoids quoting out of context.

Your nonsequiter is appreciated, however. It led me to the “It pays to be superstitious!” thread which I had never seen, and now have thoroughly enjoyed. Thank you.

[alysheba88]

Indulto, did not want to quote your post and risk offense. Or possibly a bill in the mail, served by court order, from Just Missed.


As you yourself say, there is a big difference, at least in perception, between NJ and NY. I dont mind being lumped in with "NY'ers" at all, I fit the stereotype for sure. That was more setting the record straight and someone accusing me of lying. What people outside NYC area dont understand is how many people from NYC look down on disdain on NJ.

I wont get into the whole Prius discussion or my thoughts on conservation. This is a horse forum. All I will say is Just Missed could not have been more off track on what he said- which is why I responded. The Prius (which I do have and am very happy with) was an easy way to respond. I will say the perception of Prius owners can be way off base. I could also have gone deeper but again this is a horse forum. Rather talk horses then this other nonsense. Last I will say on those non horse related subjects

[Spendabuck85]

Worth reading is a Letter to the Editor in DRF from trainer Eddie Barker about winter racing in NY. It can be viewed online at DRF.com