Poll: Data Provider of Preference

[Hajck Hillstrom]

This board may be the premier forum of the sport, and because of that fact, I have a question: What is your single preferential data provider?

20 years ago, 19 of 20 handicappers used the DRF, but I do believe that number has significantly decreased since.

If you could were allowed to use a single data publication/provider, what would it be and why?

I appreciate your replies and perspective.

[ranchwest]

TSN, cheap.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

TSN..... The Sports Network? Aren't those Brisnet data files?

[the_fat_man]

O'Rourke and Agarn are recording individual preferences of the troop for mail order brides (their business of the episode).

Vanderbilt "I want a girl named 'Shirley'"

O'Rourke/Agarn: something to the effect of "Vandy, don't you care about body type, hair color, etc.?"

Vanderbilt: "(I'm almost blind, you idiots) they all look the same to me"

Anything you get, free or otherwise, will need to be tweaked, unless you're a puppet and use someone else's program. Which means, of course, that you are not utilizing BASIC DATA.

As such, the best BASIC DATA is the CHEAPEST; i.e. the best data is FREE.

Just so many ways to package a piece of basic info and then (have the nuts to) charge money for it. (Well, there is ONE additional way that's escaped the data marketing gurus --- see the Fat Man Chart :cool:cool:

I challenge the forum members to GIVE FREE a chance.

All
I'm
saying, is
GIVE FREE A CHANCE.

(repeat after me)

[Hajck Hillstrom]

I'm down with "free" Fat Man, but I'm looking for useful as well. I listen to the likes of Vic Stauffer and the confidence he has in his sheets. I realize that it comes down to interpetation, but what is the data of choice?

If you had all the various publications at your disposal, and were allowed to select a single one, at no cost to you, what would it be?

[Tom]

HDW - hands down.

[the_fat_man]

that's a great pseudonym. I had a Scandanavian pseudonym in the '80's.

when I think of basic data, I think of results charts.

Hands down, the best results chart, free or otherwise, is from BRis.

1) chart AND PP view ($1.50 per chart from Equibase for the latter)

2) program numbers

3) last raced

4) age and sex

etc.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

Tom,

A synergist.......good to know. I appreciate the response.

[bigmack]

Just so many ways to package a piece of basic info and then (have the nuts to) charge money for it. (Well, there is ONE additional way that's escaped the data marketing gurus --- see the Fat Man Chart :cool:cool:
Go Fat Man Go - Post another one of dem charts. They sure is perrty.

Tom,

A synergist.......good to know. I appreciate the response.
HDW done carry a whole messa products besides Syn

[Hajck Hillstrom]

.....and I was fat in the 80's. Nice to see we have both evolved in the direction we have.

I like your fundamental approach, and appreciate the perspective.

[Hajck Hillstrom]

....his charts may be perrty, but they certainly aint Purdy......

[DanG]

HDW and there isn’t a close second IMO. :ThmbUp::ThmbUp::ThmbUp:

[tupper]

This could be a valuable thread. Like a few others in this forum, I am trying to get personal handicapping database up and running.

It seems to me that, to start off, the best type of info to obtain is results data in bulk. I figure one year of results from all tracks in North America would be ideal, but, apparently, none of the handicapping data providers offer one year of results charts in a single, off-the-shelf package at a competitive price.

After starting the database with the results charts, one could then use the data from each downloaded race card PP to continually expand the database. Since PPs only give the morning line, one would have to somehow take payoff info from one of the free, html (non-PDF) results pages, if one wants to avoid buying both PPs and results charts for the same race card.

Right now, DRF seems best for results, and BRIS looks good for PPs.

I have no knowledge of HDW.

[bobphilo]

In addition to accuracy of the figures, I need a PP that gives me running lines that contain fractional times, position and beaten lengths at the points of call, a trouble line and workouts, in addition to not costing me as much as I'm going to bet. That pretty much narrows it down to DRF, Brisnet and Equibase. The Equibase figures are terrible. Brisnet gives the most information but the fugures are not as accurate as the Beyers in the DRF, which have some human intervention when the mechanical figures don't make sense. There may be slightly more accurate figures than the Beyers but I need comprehensive information to tell me how the figures were earned.
I'd say the DRF with some reservations.
Bob

[njcurveball]

HDW in a romp!

WHY?

accuracy, accountability, integrity, and the list goes on.

AT $120 a month for every track, results and charts included, it is like getting Gourmet food at Mcdonalds prices!

[ranchwest]

TSN..... The Sports Network? Aren't those Brisnet data files?

TSN comes from TSNHorse, 50 cents a card for a data file.

[betovernetcapper]

I use HDW- esp like the result charts

[the_fat_man]

I figure one year of results from all tracks in North America would be ideal, but, apparently, none of the handicapping data providers offer one year of results charts in a single, off-the-shelf package at a competitive price.

Try these guys

http://www.jdca-racing.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=Database2006&cart_id=432858.17542 (http://www.jdca-racing.com/thoroughbred_horse_racing_products_data.htm)

[tupper]

Try these guys

http://www.jdca-racing.com/cgi-bin/store/commerce.cgi?product=Database2006&cart_id=432858.17542 (http://www.jdca-racing.com/thoroughbred_horse_racing_products_data.htm)WOW! Thanks. This looks great!

Looks like they lack a few racing circuits, but, if they provide the same basic figures as BRIS/TSN/DRF/Equibase, the price is fantastic.

I will delve into this site more thoroughly when I get a chance.
-Dale

[alysheba88]

I have never understood the idea of an "Accurate figure".

I think I know what people are trying to say but still would like to read some clarification about what people really mean when they "accurate". There is an implication that its all unalterable, proven science.

[sjk]

An accurate figure is one that will help you win money in contrast to one that will help you lose money.

[alysheba88]

An accurate figure is one that will help you win money in contrast to one that will help you lose money.

lol. seriously what is an accurate figure?

[sjk]

I was being serious. A set of numbers by itself does nothing.

You have some process for using the numbers be it reading a print-out or running a computer macro. It is pretty easy to make a bad number so that no matter how good your process for using the number you will always lose.

The good number can led to good results when the process is applied.

If you don't like that definition then a historical number is a good one if over the long run it predicts today's number with a standard deviation of <13.

[sjk]

I don't think that was very clear so I will try again.

Accuracy of a single number is meaningless. You have a process for assigning numbers by the thousands (or millions) to the horses that run. The accuracy of the process is meaningful.

You can evaluate it by the success of the results it generates or by quantitative backtesting.

[alysheba88]

thats okay I dont think I was being clear.

I just never follow or understand when people talk about such and such figures are "inaccurate" and this other company/person's figure "are accurate".

[ranchwest]

I have never understood the idea of an "Accurate figure".

I think I know what people are trying to say but still would like to read some clarification about what people really mean when they "accurate". There is an implication that its all unalterable, proven science.

I think I know where you're coming from. Horse racing isn't as exact as some seem to think.

I'm sure that some numbers are better than others, but I think any numbers can be misleading. That's why I use all of the available running lines to try to determine which of the numbers seem to make sense and whether maybe some of the numbers might be skewed.

I buy the 50 cent PPs. Maybe that's hurting me, but either it isn't or I'm too dumb to know. I can't tell where the "inaccurate" numbers are hurting me.

[alysheba88]

People also seem to think if they win that means a figure was "right" and if it they lose it was "wrong".

The figure lost, not the flesh and blood.

[bobphilo]

I have never understood the idea of an "Accurate figure".

I think I know what people are trying to say but still would like to read some clarification about what people really mean when they "accurate". There is an implication that its all unalterable, proven science.

To me an accurate figure is one that correctly describes a horses perfiormance.
Easy to say but then one has to know what the horses performance was.
I personally look to see if the assigned figures, over a period of time, make sense relative to what would be expected from both the horse and others in the race, as well as future races, considering pace trip, form cycles, etc. Put simply, predictive power.
True, a subjective decision, but one that must be made.

Bob

[bobphilo]

To futher complicate matters, one has to consider the strengths and weaknesses of the methodologies behind the figures. Some do not give the proper relation to beaten lengths at different distances. Some may under or over-rate different circuits. Some may not know when to break a race loose from others on that day. That's why I like to look at a few sets of figures and favor the one that seems to best "get" how good this horse really is.

Bob

[aaron]

There are many different figure providers and I feel that whatever figures a player is using are the right figures for them.I believe most of the providers do a competent job. I personally feel figures are only one part of the puzzle and you must dig deeper into the race. For instance a fast figure earned on a biased track might not hold up on a fair track. Does that make the figure incorrect ? Absolutely not,but it is to the players advantage to know how the figure was earned.

[alysheba88]

To futher complicate matters, one has to consider the strengths and weaknesses of the methodologies behind the figures. Some do not give the proper relation to beaten lengths at different distances. Some may under or over-rate different circuits. Some may not know when to break a race loose from others on that day. That's why I like to look at a few sets of figures and favor the one that seems to best "get" how good this horse really is.

Bob

Good post, thanks

[DanG]

This board may be the premier forum of the sport, and because of that fact, I have a question: What is your single preferential data provider?

If you could were allowed to use a single data publication/provider, what would it be and why?
Hi Hajck,

IMHO:

The thread as I understood it was asking for recommendations in racing “data providers”. As data oriented racing discussions often do responses have often centered on speed figures.




In terms of data providers Equibase is the 300 gorilla in our industry.
For many years I collected their data, exporting through DRF formulator.
Beyer speed figures aside, this data wound up with over 100 separate filters to clean various errors and omissions both small and large. (BTW: That is no exaggeration)
HDW is a “value added reseller” of Equibase data. Ron Tiller is at the helm and does incredible work cleaning up and adding to the raw collected data. HDW then offers it in various packages to software developers and through his own products.
As far as racing data providers, HDW is worth several times what they charge in my view. Have someone go over raw stock market technical reports with a fine tooth comb and see what it costs. There are many ways to save money in racing and in my view your data provider should not be one of them.

[the_fat_man]

Hi Hajck,


As far as racing data providers, HDW is worth several times what they charge in my view. Have someone go over raw stock market technical reports with a fine tooth comb and see what it costs. There are many ways to save money in racing and in my view your data provider should not be one of them.


Here's the way I look at it, Dan, and don't take this in any way as criticism directed at YOUR data provider:


there's basic data out there; whatever the format might be


anyone with the ability to write some VERY BASIC code can take this data and give it the 'fine tooth comb' treatment ---- YEAH, this treatment is not the sole property of HDW, or DRF, or anyone else


notice, once you do this, however, it's no longer basic data (whether, because you've changed the format, pulled out noteworthy items, etc.)


notice, as well, we're still only dealing with data that doesn't include proprietary figures (of whatever form)


thus, no matter HOW CHEAP HDW or any other supplier's data is, it's still not cheap enough if you can get some code together


MOREOVER, when I write my own code, I get to do whatever I want with the data ---and I'm able to TWEAK my code whenever I feel it, as my needs change ---which all saves a ton of time, ultimately

and I save 120 bones (or whatever the up to date, data conscious are paying) a month


of course, alot of these data suppliers are also selling programs which use their data -----which results in a whole bunch on automotons out there doing the same thing ---but they think they're doing something different cause it's on THEIR pc

thus, for example, I wasn't happy with the charts that the data providers made available to the public, so I decided to do a FAT CHAT, suitable for FAT handicapping.

key words

FREE
FAT

[Indulto]

... there's basic data out there; whatever the format might be

anyone with the ability to write some VERY BASIC code can take this data and give it the 'fine tooth comb' treatment ---- YEAH, this treatment is not the sole property of HDW, or DRF, or anyone else

notice, once you do this, however, it's no longer basic data (whether, because you've changed the format, pulled out noteworthy items, etc.)

notice, as well, we're still only dealing with data that doesn't include proprietary figures (of whatever form)

thus, no matter HOW CHEAP HDW or any other supplier's data is, it's still not cheap enough if you can get some code together

MOREOVER, when I write my own code, I get to do whatever I want with the data ---and I'm able to TWEAK my code whenever I feel it, as my needs change ---which all saves a ton of time, ultimately

and I save 120 bones (or whatever the up to date, data conscious are paying) a month

of course, alot of these data suppliers are also selling programs which use their data -----which results in a whole bunch on automotons out there doing the same thing ---but they think they're doing something different cause it's on THEIR pc

thus, for example, I wasn't happy with the charts that the data providers made available to the public, so I decided to do a FAT CHAT, suitable for FAT handicapping.

key words

FREE
FATtfm,
If you're not selling, you must be proselytizing. ;)

So, Preach, I’ve got a horse for you that needs trip handicapping.

According to the DRF, Hendrix in the FG 7th seems to find more ways to lose than I do (or is a victim of a conspiracy). No horse ever looked so good to me without winning.

Am I a victim of the way the horse is being presented by the DRF, or does he look much different to users of other data providers?

[the_fat_man]

Maybe I really should be in the 'take your game to the next level' thread

I wonder if I started buying data if my game would 'take to the next level'


I don't follow FG, except for the odd stake. I don't have their charts and their races are not on Calracing.com

Is this a 3rd world track?

Why do I need to BUY DATA and tracks like FG don't need to make their product more readily accessible to the public? Damn, get a website and start streaming your races.

Or why do the southern CALI tracks only provide the headon for the 1st turn (routes) and stretch ONLY? Saving money?

ME TOO

I got it: it must be that there's no demand for the actual product
but there is demand for abstractions of the product.

Nothing like basing your reasoning on abstractions. Hell, you don't need to know a thing about the thing itself. Beautiful

[Indulto]

Maybe I really should be in the 'take your game to the next level' thread

I wonder if I started buying data if my game would 'take to the next level'

I don't follow FG, except for the odd stake. I don't have their charts and their races are not on Calracing.com

Is this a 3rd world track?

Why do I need to BUY DATA and tracks like FG don't need to make their product more readily accessible to the public? Damn, get a website and start streaming your races.

Or why do the southern CALI tracks only provide the headon for the 1st turn (routes) and stretch ONLY? Saving money?

ME TOO

I got it: it must be that there's no demand for the actual product
but there is demand for abstractions of the product.

Nothing like basing your reasoning on abstractions. Hell, you don't need to know a thing about the thing itself. BeautifulActually, Hendrix is an import from So Cal who comes out of the same race as the favorite.

[bigmack]

I save 120 bones (or whatever the up to date, data conscious are paying) a month
of course, alot of these data suppliers are also selling programs which use their data -----which results in a whole bunch on automotons out there doing the same thing ---but they think they're doing something different cause it's on THEIR pc

thus, for example, I wasn't happy with the charts that the data providers made available to the public, so I decided to do a FAT CHAT, suitable for FAT handicapping.

key words

FREE
FAT
Oh Great Man of Excessive Girth,

I can appreciate your "freebeing" your way through arduous tasks such as compiling data for all tracks for all entrants for everyday of the month and cycling away feeling $120 richer but as the saying goes "time is lettuce"

With all the trip notes and replays to stay abreast of how can one find the time to punctiliously configure data for ones crushing of certain venues?

The general pop respects the_fat_man with a jaded view. Can the_fat_man cut the general pop some slack and lighten up with the condescendingly pedantic posture?

In conclusion, BigMack digs FatCharts.

[the_fat_man]

here's the deal Mac

take a trip on over to the Hong Kong Jockey Club and see what a professional track website looks like. take a look at all the services they provide to their users/bettors. over there, data is not some sacred thing that you need to guard and overprice, lest some idiot gets his hands on it and finds instant enlightenment but rather something that should be made available to all; and in as much detail as possible.




yeah, just as soon as the 'general public' stops lauding what they're being force fed. In other words, WAKE UP; it could be alot better.

[DanG]

Fair enough Fat Man…

The thread starter was asking for data opinions and we each stated ours. At least I “think” you stated yours.

Couple quick points…





All the “tweaking” you do with your data I do at least that except that mine goes through the hands of several experts before I touch it.
As far as everyone winding up with the same selections when your software provider touches the data tells me you don’t quite know what you’re discussing…with all due respect.
$120.00 a month for every track in the country, charts, tons of proprietary data AND the ability to export and store data to manipulate it as I see fit. If that price is extravagant we must agree to disagree.
In closing… (I’ve said too much already)

When a person (as yourself) goes to all the trouble of typing something out to basically criticize someone’s method or source of information it carries so much more weight (no pun intended ;)) when that person has personal knowledge of what they criticize.

In reading your post its obvious you have never been on the receiving end of HDW / software provider and if you did, you certainly didn’t exploit its potential.

BTW-I: These thoughts were typed trying to clarify a few things for the thread starter who asked opinions. I have a hunch I would need three lifetimes to debate the ‘Fat man and would end up at point A.

BTW-II: Good points on the Hong Kong Jockey Club. Fantastic resource, but wishing track operators would provide it won’t make it so.

All the best my friend! :ThmbUp:

[the_fat_man]

Fair enough Fat Man…

The thread starter was asking for data opinions and we each stated ours. At least I “think” you stated yours.

Couple quick points…







All the “tweaking” you do with your data I do at least that except that mine goes through the hands of several experts before I touch it.
As far as everyone winding up with the same selections when your software provider touches the data tells me you don’t quite know what you’re discussing…with all due respect.
$120.00 a month for every track in the country, charts, tons of proprietary data AND the ability to export and store data to manipulate it as I see fit. If that price is extravagant we must agree to disagree.
In closing… (I’ve said too much already)

When a person (as yourself) goes to all the trouble of typing something out to basically criticize someone’s method or source of information it carries so much more weight (no pun intended ;)) when that person has personal knowledge of what they criticize.

In reading your post its obvious you have never been on the receiving end of HDW / software provider and if you did, you certainly didn’t exploit its potential.

BTW-I: These thoughts were typed trying to clarify a few things for the thread starter who asked opinions. I have a hunch I would need three lifetimes to debate the ‘Fat man and would end up at point A.

BTW-II: Good points on the Hong Kong Jockey Club. Fantastic resource, but wishing track operators would provide it won’t make it so.

All the best my friend! :ThmbUp:


OUCH:bang:


You guys are so touchy about your data. And I never stated that you all come up with the same selections. Now, that would be insensitive.


Listen, man,


I really could care less what people do when it comes to data or handicapping


I get a kick out the constant revisiting of topics here


There are so many interesting races being run and we're reduced to debating data sources


Got to go with the flow


This is absolutely my last word on the topic

[Tom]

I just cannot understand why the tracks are not fighting to be the first to provide SOA data.

For free.

[sjk]

Tom,

They are doing it to protect the interests of the people who have been accumulating data for years. They are looking out for you.

[kid4rilla]

Tom,

They are doing it to protect the interests of the people who have been accumulating data for years. They are looking out for you.

This has to be intended to reek of sarcasm.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I cannot find the poll!

[SMOO]

I just play my lucky numbers. :jump: