WHERE ARE THE NYRA OFFICIALS???

[NY BRED]

lC TORNADO died in yesterday's seventh race and thankfully her jockey
will again ride and as importantly no other horses or Jockeys were
injured.

Read the past performances and you quickly realize this mare
did not belong in the race despite her eligibility for a
NY Bred non winners of one allowance.

A: after losing twice in mid 2006 she was shipped to del where she scored at
.80 on the dollar in a md 12.5 claimer via Anthony dutrow and was claimed by
Scott lake.She then won a 12.5 allow one month later and began plunging
to 7500 open claimers and finally won at that level in jan 07.Throughout
that time frame she was never claimed,meaning the word was out on
her physical problems

B: She then shipped to NY on 2/18/07 and stumbled out of the gate finishing
7th by 5 1/2 lengths.


c: She demonstrated certain similar weakness on 10/15/06 by also stumbling, finishing 8th by 16,and ran extremely wide on 1/14/07 at even money
finishing 4th by 4 lengths.

d: only one work was posted , where she went 51.3 breezing,7th of 10 at del


NY Breds don't race out of town unless they are maidens and/or have no shot
at winning in NY,and the fact this mare wasn't claimed at 7.5 open
claiming confirms the fact.By the way, had she been fit, finishing 3rd-5th
in NY would have given her owners more $ as against the states and
companies she ended up in.

Given this background,she shows up yesterday , goes off at 15-1 and dies in mid stretch in a gut wrenching scene.

Breakdowns can happen with Stakes horses, but in my opinion this
mare did not deserve this fate.

[cj]

The horse won a 12500 Starter Allowance, which she was only eligible for because she ran in the MCL race just prior. This horse was never competitive in NY against allowance horses, until yesterday and the race prior.

She was drubbed four times in NY Bred MSW races, thus she was taken out of town, probably with the starter allowance series in mind. After her win in the starter race, she was tried in a NY Bred allowance race and drubbed again. If she can't compete there, it is FL or another state.

This horse basically won nothing but a so so starter allowance and a cheap maiden claimer. 7500 was probably her level, and when dropped there she finally won again. This encouraged the connections to try NY Bred ALW again, and she ran respectably first time out. Obviously, she was going to win yesterday without the breakdown.

Despite all of that, the biggest flaw I see in your theory is that the horse had raced non-stop since May of 2006 without a single layoff while competing 14 times. That just doesn't sound like a horse with physical problems to me.

You seem to really dislike NYRA. Am I wrong?

[misscashalot]

lC TORNADO died in yesterday's seventh race and thankfully her jockey
will again ride and as importantly no other horses or Jockeys were
injured.

Read the past performances and you quickly realize this mare
did not belong in the race despite her eligibility for a
NY Bred non winners of one allowance.

A: after losing twice in mid 2006 she was shipped to del where she scored at
.80 on the dollar in a md 12.5 claimer via Anthony dutrow and was claimed by
Scott lake.She then won a 12.5 allow one month later and began plunging
to 7500 open claimers and finally won at that level in jan 07.Throughout
that time frame she was never claimed,meaning the word was out on
her physical problems

B: She then shipped to NY on 2/18/07 and stumbled out of the gate finishing
7th by 5 1/2 lengths.


c: She demonstrated certain similar weakness on 10/15/06 by also stumbling, finishing 8th by 16,and ran extremely wide on 1/14/07 at even money
finishing 4th by 4 lengths.

d: only one work was posted , where she went 51.3 breezing,7th of 10 at del


NY Breds don't race out of town unless they are maidens and/or have no shot
at winning in NY,and the fact this mare wasn't claimed at 7.5 open
claiming confirms the fact.By the way, had she been fit, finishing 3rd-5th
in NY would have given her owners more $ as against the states and
companies she ended up in.

Given this background,she shows up yesterday , goes off at 15-1 and dies in mid stretch in a gut wrenching scene.

Breakdowns can happen with Stakes horses, but in my opinion this
mare did not deserve this fate.

Do you propose a selection committee to screen every entrant in order to judge if the animal belongs? Ya gotta figga that the owners don't want a corpse on their hands.

[NY BRED]

CJ and Misscashalot


First I happen to love the Circuit, am an owner and am appalled
by the obvious form reversals by certain trainers going unchecked by
officials.

We can argue to doomsday if this mare belonged , but I will add
despite its "sharp" connections final odds were about 15-1.

I have also posted my dissatisfaction having 5k claimers which
invites similar problems which can only lead to more loss
of fans and even owners.

Arguing over the merits of such racing is quite different when you witness
this horrible sight in person, especially with friends who are new owners.

[misscashalot]

CJ and Misscashalot


...........

I have also posted my dissatisfaction having 5k claimers which
invites similar problems which can only lead to more loss
of fans and even owners. .....



You got the 5K comment wrong there. For 5K claimers the purse was 12K As you know the NYRA is running on fumes and Campo is trying to conserve what little cash they have. If finances were healthy that race, with the same horses , would been for 10K and the purse would have been 18K. Even 7.5K claiming price commands a purse of 16K. All for 6 furlongs.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"the biggest flaw I see in your theory is that the horse had raced non-stop since May of 2006 without a single layoff while competing 14 times. That just doesn't sound like a horse with physical problems to me."
Let's see- LC Tormado just brokedown and was euthanized at Aqueduct 7th race 2-4-07:
ran 14 times in 9 months; dropped to low level; slow works; going very wide; 2 recent stumblings (remember Barbaro's KY Debry and AA's Preakness stumbling?) brokedown under Lake.
Why does that all sound so familiar? If you want to call it coincidence, go ahead- it's coincidence.

[cj]

Injured horses don't race 14 times in 9 months. I can't possibly decipher the rest of your post.

[shanta]

I am having a bit of trouble understanding this thread.

The horse was going to win the race so he certainly "fit" the race imo. The 2 previous times in Ny he stumbled at the start.

The horse also has been racing fairly consistently.

?????

A terrible accident but I don't get where the stewards come into play here. The horse was going to WIN the race.

I also admit I am not the brightest bulb in the fixture.

Richie

[aaron]

I don't see how you can blame NYRA for this. Horses breakdown,its unfortunate,but it is part of the game. The Cadillac Cruiser breakdown was a horse who had run well for 20,000 and is now in for 7500. Trainers do this, but not all horses breakdown.

[ryesteve]

All I'm getting from this thread is the idea that some people think that horses who've stumbled at the break and/or show class drops off losing races somewhere in the PPs, ought to be barred from competing.

Do you guys really enjoy walkovers and match races that much?

[Ron]

Or any horse that breaks down is the fault of the stewards...

[kenwoodallpromos]

Who said the horse had to have been injured at the 1st of the 14 races?
Who says it is impossible for a horse to run in any race if injured to some extent in a previous one?
Medical research says a horse can run in races with microfractures from overwork until rested enough to heal up or sometimes until a leg snaps.
Like with any breakdown, the best way to know for sure what happened is to see the necropsy report.

[toetoe]

Nybie,

I understand your concern, but to be consistent you must call for banning THOUSANDS of horses. And are the cripples in WV less deserving of your protective outrage than those at "major" tracks?

The horse, despite all tribulations, was going to WIN THE RACE ! How badly spotted could it really be?

No disrespect to the poor beast, but if it won, I believe only RRBauer and I would hit that darn pick-four. I hope to be corrected on the woulda-coulda-shoulda score.

Yours,
The Cal-bred :)

[jotb]

lC TORNADO died in yesterday's seventh race and thankfully her jockey
will again ride and as importantly no other horses or Jockeys were
injured.

Read the past performances and you quickly realize this mare
did not belong in the race despite her eligibility for a
NY Bred non winners of one allowance.

A: after losing twice in mid 2006 she was shipped to del where she scored at
.80 on the dollar in a md 12.5 claimer via Anthony dutrow and was claimed by
Scott lake.She then won a 12.5 allow one month later and began plunging
to 7500 open claimers and finally won at that level in jan 07.Throughout
that time frame she was never claimed,meaning the word was out on
her physical problems

B: She then shipped to NY on 2/18/07 and stumbled out of the gate finishing
7th by 5 1/2 lengths.


c: She demonstrated certain similar weakness on 10/15/06 by also stumbling, finishing 8th by 16,and ran extremely wide on 1/14/07 at even money
finishing 4th by 4 lengths.

d: only one work was posted , where she went 51.3 breezing,7th of 10 at del


NY Breds don't race out of town unless they are maidens and/or have no shot
at winning in NY,and the fact this mare wasn't claimed at 7.5 open
claiming confirms the fact.By the way, had she been fit, finishing 3rd-5th
in NY would have given her owners more $ as against the states and
companies she ended up in.

Given this background,she shows up yesterday , goes off at 15-1 and dies in mid stretch in a gut wrenching scene.

Breakdowns can happen with Stakes horses, but in my opinion this
mare did not deserve this fate.

Hello NY BRED:

I don't believe that was an open 7.5k at LRL that she won. That condition was a NW3L7.5K. The other race she win was a STARTERALWNW2L. Did you ever stop to think why she was not claimed? I would think after being in the hands of Anthony Dutrow and Scott Lake that would keep others away. As far as, the works go on this 5yo, I'm sure she has been taken to the track for morning work but when it comes to breezes, I don't think you need to keep on drilling the 5yo given the fact that she has never been away from the races more than 35 days since her debut in May 06. There is no doubt in my mind that fitness was ever a problem because she win at LRL which can be a deep tiring oval. Running over the Aqueduct inner dirt on the other hand can be sometimes like running over concrete (not as bad as the meadowlands). This change of surface could have been the cause of her breakdown. I know she ran over the strip once in Feb but running her back in 14 days might have been a bit too much. Lastly, your topic of this thread "where are the NYRA officials"? I'm not sure what you mean by that? Are you saying they should know the horse had physically problems and should have been scr? If this is the case, then if anybody should see this is the state vet. How does the horse get passed the state vet if the horse is not sound? Can you please clarify about NYRA OFFICIALS?

Thanks in advance,
Joe

[jotb]

Read the past performances and you quickly realize this mare
did not belong in the race despite her eligibility for a
NY Bred non winners of one allowance.

Hello NYBRED:

Honestly, I can't blame the connections for running her in this spot. I'm familiar with Gumpster and how he operates. They will run horses only in spots where they feel they can win. If they were to win with this 5yo in this condition it would be now in the winter rather than the spring-summer. The competition is easier at this time of the year and that 43k can be very inviting. I believe if she didn't break down and she didn't win the race, more than likely she would have been sent to Finger Lakes when they opened which is not too far away. I'm sure if you had a piece of this horse you would have thought the same way. The mare managed to win 3 races and to me she was carefully spotted NW2L and NW3L. Where would you go with this 5yo after that last win? There is always the NW4L but where? Pha Park has a NW4L but nothing lower than 10k which is tough. The other place would be Penn but I believe they only write NW4L for4k. The purse is nothing there and they probably didn't want to lose her for that claiming price. So where do they go? Anything else besides a NW4L would be just too tough. I'm pretty sure in NY if they write races for open5k or open 7.5k you have alot of hard knocking types that would be too much for her. The bottom line is, this mare was in the right spot the other day.

Best regards,
Joe

[ceejay]

The horse was going to WIN the race.

So much so that I had turned away from the TV....

[ranchwest]

Read the past performances and you quickly realize this mare
did not belong in the race despite her eligibility for a
NY Bred non winners of one allowance.

Hello NYBRED:

Honestly, I can't blame the connections for running her in this spot. I'm familiar with Gumpster and how he operates. They will run horses only in spots where they feel they can win. If they were to win with this 5yo in this condition it would be now in the winter rather than the spring-summer. The competition is easier at this time of the year and that 43k can be very inviting. I believe if she didn't break down and she didn't win the race, more than likely she would have been sent to Finger Lakes when they opened which is not too far away. I'm sure if you had a piece of this horse you would have thought the same way. The mare managed to win 3 races and to me she was carefully spotted NW2L and NW3L. Where would you go with this 5yo after that last win? There is always the NW4L but where? Pha Park has a NW4L but nothing lower than 10k which is tough. The other place would be Penn but I believe they only write NW4L for4k. The purse is nothing there and they probably didn't want to lose her for that claiming price. So where do they go? Anything else besides a NW4L would be just too tough. I'm pretty sure in NY if they write races for open5k or open 7.5k you have alot of hard knocking types that would be too much for her. The bottom line is, this mare was in the right spot the other day.

Best regards,
Joe

Looked to me she was about 100 yards or whatever from being in the right spot Sunday. I really think this horse was giving beyond herself and got off center. If she'd have eased off she'd have won.

[NY BRED]

my venting which started with this thread is that on paper, LC Tornado
showed early speed at lrl and Del in lower class levels and for this
reason, at least in my handicapping did not figure to win this race.

Owners at certain points have decisions to make regarding the
future of the thoroughbred.If the horse had been examined for
any physical problems, which could be the reason for the drop in class,
another answer could,or should be to retire the horse rather than
lead it to the conclusion which happened Sunday.

It sound easy to say, but I have made that decision to retire the horse
and take the loss rather than witness Sunday's horrible sight.

[alysheba88]

lC TORNADO died in yesterday's seventh race and thankfully her jockey
will again ride and as importantly no other horses or Jockeys were
injured.

Read the past performances and you quickly realize this mare
did not belong in the race despite her eligibility for a
NY Bred non winners of one allowance.

A: after losing twice in mid 2006 she was shipped to del where she scored at
.80 on the dollar in a md 12.5 claimer via Anthony dutrow and was claimed by
Scott lake.She then won a 12.5 allow one month later and began plunging
to 7500 open claimers and finally won at that level in jan 07.Throughout
that time frame she was never claimed,meaning the word was out on
her physical problems

B: She then shipped to NY on 2/18/07 and stumbled out of the gate finishing
7th by 5 1/2 lengths.


c: She demonstrated certain similar weakness on 10/15/06 by also stumbling, finishing 8th by 16,and ran extremely wide on 1/14/07 at even money
finishing 4th by 4 lengths.

d: only one work was posted , where she went 51.3 breezing,7th of 10 at del


NY Breds don't race out of town unless they are maidens and/or have no shot
at winning in NY,and the fact this mare wasn't claimed at 7.5 open
claiming confirms the fact.By the way, had she been fit, finishing 3rd-5th
in NY would have given her owners more $ as against the states and
companies she ended up in.

Given this background,she shows up yesterday , goes off at 15-1 and dies in mid stretch in a gut wrenching scene.

Breakdowns can happen with Stakes horses, but in my opinion this
mare did not deserve this fate.

Owners and trainers have no culpability? Were you thinking the same thing right before the wire when she was about to win?

[NY BRED]

ALYSHEBA:

owners and trainers are the first in line to be culpable as they, more than anyone have the ability, and responsibility of determining the fitness of a horse
and its ability to compete in the class entered today regardless of the
horse meeting the conditions of a race.

these parties know , or should know the soundness of their horse
based upon the works, its condition after workouts and races and
if it can successfully compete in the selected race.

Despite all the responses I'm seeing, this horse originally ran in NY, could not compete, ended up with the magicians, ran cheaply out of NY,recently came back, showed speed and again finished off the board prior to
Sunday's race.
Ny bettors don't miss this barn yet the horse was not being bet.Obviously
14-1 appealed to quite a few people, and in fact I used the horse on my tris/exactas hoping for a chaos race which frankly, I felt was
unrealistic .

Presuming the owners felt or knew their horse was sound, why not go
for the softer purse at FL, maybe make an equal ammount for a win
in easier company, than finishing 2nd/3rd in Sunday"s race and hopefully
avoid losing the horse?

If the answer is $$, and the horse was sound,I'm totally wrong,
but I just don't see it any other way.

[ranchwest]

I just don't see it any other way.

Looks like you did Sunday. You bet on the horse.

[jotb]

ALYSHEBA:

owners and trainers are the first in line to be culpable as they, more than anyone have the ability, and responsibility of determining the fitness of a horse
and its ability to compete in the class entered today regardless of the
horse meeting the conditions of a race.

these parties know , or should know the soundness of their horse
based upon the works, its condition after workouts and races and
if it can successfully compete in the selected race.

Despite all the responses I'm seeing, this horse originally ran in NY, could not compete, ended up with the magicians, ran cheaply out of NY,recently came back, showed speed and again finished off the board prior to
Sunday's race.
Ny bettors don't miss this barn yet the horse was not being bet.Obviously
14-1 appealed to quite a few people, and in fact I used the horse on my tris/exactas hoping for a chaos race which frankly, I felt was
unrealistic .

Presuming the owners felt or knew their horse was sound, why not go
for the softer purse at FL, maybe make an equal ammount for a win
in easier company, than finishing 2nd/3rd in Sunday"s race and hopefully
avoid losing the horse?

If the answer is $$, and the horse was sound,I'm totally wrong,
but I just don't see it any other way.

Hello NYBRED:


I gave you valid reasons why this mare was in this condition that you feel was too tough for her but you didn't take the time to respond back to me which leaves me with the feeling that you only see things your way and your way is the right way. Stupid me will give this another shot. Let's get something straight first. There is not a whole lot of difference between an AlW1X for state breds in NY, then there is for a NW3L7.5K at Laurel during the winter for fillies and mares. The ALW1X at most (and I will give you the benefit of the doubt here) is one full second faster than par. You made this seem like they drastically dropped this mare because she had problems and they knew she could not compete against her own kind and now that they put her in against her own kind it looks to you like they threw her to the wolves.

If I'm an owner and I claim a horse I want to protect my interest and in the case of L C TORNADO it looks to me like the connections were trying to do this. They put her in spots were she could win and she did just that. The connections claimed her for 12.5k back in Aug. and since then the mare has accumulated $27,727 in purse earnings. The owner going into this last race was still not out yet. I'm pretty sure Lake is getting at least (low ball figure) $70 for a day rate which means somewhere in the area of 14k just for the day rate since Aug. Let's not forget the jock, trainer, (purse %), shipping costs and vet bills during this time. They have this mare since Aug. and have not made a dime.

I believe I read somewhere in this thread that you are an owner in the industy and it looks to me from what you have written here that you are the type of owner that looks out for the safety of the racehorse and jockey which I applaude you to no end but keep in mind the racehorse business is about money and the majority of the owners in the industry can't afford to stay in the industry maybe like you can. You seem like you would be content if your trainer advised you that it would be best to put your racehorse on the shelf for x amount of time because of an ailment. So, I take it if your racehorse was to be out 3 to 4 months to month you would have no problem with the overhead but for many owners in the game they would have a problem. You might be a trainers dream but for most owners that is a trainers nightmare. Most of the owners in the industry don't want to hear about setbacks. They want their horse to run if possible several times a month to cover costs and if not then the owner is willing to strip that horse from the trainer and go somewhere else. I see it and hear it all the time.

In regard to owners being "culpable" for their racehorse to fitting a certain race condition and fitness of the horse, I take it that you felt if L C TORNADO was your racehorse you would have directed the trainer to find an easier spot because it would have been your responsibility. I don't know who your trainer is but if you are the type of owner that tells his trainer to put his horse in where he sees fit, I know that if I was your trainer your horse would be finding another stall in another trainers barn. Your imput would be one thing but the decision should rest upon the trainer. I don't believe L C TORNADO broke down because she ran against a field where she did not belong like you say. You mentioned Finger Lakes if the horse was sound but like I said earlier in this thread, Finger Lakes is not opened yet. This thing about owners knowing the fitness of their racehorse, I think you might have meant soundness because what's there to know about fitness. Did you feel the owner of L C TORNADO should have questioned the fitness level of this horse because she only had 1 published work since Aug.? You did mention that earlier. Why would she need to breeze if she hasn't missed any racing action since they claimed her? All in all they did a good job keeping this mare together. Unfortunately her career came to an end and this too is part of the game and you as an owner should know. I've witness several times over the years, when a horse didn't have a pimple on him but somehow never made it off the track. It's sad but true in many instances. Like I said, it's part of the game.

Joe

[NY BRED]

JOTB:

I sent you a private email regarding your response.

as far as disclosure:

I am exactly the owner you describe when I feel my horse needs time
to get in condition and be race ready, rather than simply running
a horse with a problem(s) and risking a breakdown or permanent injury
or death.

The trainer makes the call as respects the suitable race, but I will
get involved when entries appear tough or conditions(ie sloppy track,
off the turf) occur.

I am sure Gumpster came to get a piece or all of the purse, and had the best
of info from the trainer , even from a vet stating LC Had a good shot
to come in the money and was fit to run.

Frankly, I do counter your argument about the ability of LC to compete in
the race at the Big A, and really question if some R&R coupled with a visit
to a track in which the competition was possibly weaker would have suited LC
better and prevented this tragedy.

Obviously, redboarding is useless, and my condolences go to
the owners, whose horse appeared to be the winner in mid stretch.

Running in races alwayss keep a horse better fit than workouts, and
honestly, I don't necessarilly believe the DRF gets all of the worksand misses
quite often the correct final times.

We both agree these losses are part of the game, even with high class horses
and my venting entails looking for some solution to minimizing these horrific
events.

Having come full circle to this ending, let's both hope for better racing luck,
as these thoroughbreds do run their eyeballs out for our enjoyment.

[the Bid]

I hate to dig this up but...

Clearly the mare was going to win this race. The race carried a $43k purse meaning the win would have netted the owners near $20k (after jock/trainer etc) and might have gotten them "even" on the mare. You cannot say that she didn't belong, she was winning. Did Giacomo not belong in this Derby? Should Charismatic have run in an allowance rather than the Belmont? If LC TORNADO was good enough to win the race, why would you have advised running her at F'Lakes, in 3-4 weeks for an $18k total purse. The fact is that if this mare had (say) developing fractures the catastrophic injury would have ahppened at the lakes, not the Big A. How does this help the poor animal? No trainer wants to be left holding an empty halter after a race, wherever it is, at any level.
As an owner, you know the expenses and how fast they pile up. Maybe some have the luxury of doing scans for fractures after every start but most cannot. If the horse comes back and re-covers from a race OK, he points for the next one.

The move from Nw1xNYB to $7500 claiming is pretty much lateral. The NYB mares in this condition over the winter are $10k stock at best on the open market, with rare exception and they zip through the conditions and into stakes on the Inner Tube. This mare was running about where she fit. I hate to see any of them get hurt. Sadly the purses are not enough to cover expenses if a smaller operation want's to "do it 100% right." It sounds like a ton of money to say she's earned $27k for her new owners who paid $12.5k but with day rates etc, she was not paying the bills. They finally got her good enough to win a (for her) huge purse and the goes down. Don't think they wanted it, they didn't.