Charts different

[takeout]

Here’s a weird looking one. Check out the pdf result chart from DRF and BRIS/TSN for the 7th race at CT on 3/2/07. Each one has a different previous race for the winner.

Which chart would be the more correct? What’s odd to me is that the TSN result chart has the race for Manor Downs but they didn’t have it in their PPs. :confused:

[46zilzal]

For many years there were complete "fairgrounds" circuits not covered by the DRF. I used to scratch my head when a horse who had ostensibly had not a single start in a year come back and win like much the best until I learned that IN THE RACING OFFICE, they had the results of many of these fairgounds meetings that the public were not privy to.

How did we know that he raced at Sun Downs twice this year?

[bobphilo]

Here’s a weird looking one. Check out the pdf result chart from DRF and BRIS/TSN for the 7th race at CT on 3/2/07. Each one has a different previous race for the winner.

Which chart would be the more correct? What’s odd to me is that the TSN result chart has the race for Manor Downs but they didn’t have it in their PPs. :confused:

You might want to try the Equibase site for their chart since they're the original source.

Bob

[Tom]

Here's the dope:

The horse wn a 350 yards Q horse maiden race, in which it showed up as a fist time starter- despite 6 starts as a t-bred.

I went to DRF charts and Manor Downs website to find the race.

Confusing - why would BRIS include Q races in T bred races?????

How many other horses out ther show off of up a layoff = 60 days who won a short race last weekend????

[takeout]

Thanks Tom, very interesting.

I just downloaded the pps for Manor Downs and noticed that the breeding listed is not the same. Looks like it might be a different horse with the same name.

Also noticed in the CT pps that she had a work listed at CT the day before the race in Texas. That seemed pretty hard to swallow, too.

Does the Jockey Club approve the names for the Q horses too or are the Q horses a complete different outfit of their own?

[speedking]

For many years some of the sharper turf trainers on the east coast would prep their runners in Point to Point events. These are private, non-reported races run out in the open country. No track, just a specified course over land owned by a club or sponsor. If you did not have inside info you never knew a thing about them and they often served as excellent tune-ups for grass runners laid off all Winter.

speedking

[rrbauer]

For many years some of the sharper turf trainers on the east coast would prep their runners in Point to Point events. These are private, non-reported races run out in the open country. No track, just a specified course over land owned by a club or sponsor. If you did not have inside info you never knew a thing about them and they often served as excellent tune-ups for grass runners laid off all Winter.

speedking

You've been prowling around out in Chester county too long. Some of those farms out there have pretty nice grass courses.

Also, regarding the horses running at fair meets. There are many "unsanctioned" fair meets in Utah and Arizona, usually lasting for two weekends each around their respective states that produce a few "maidens" that show up at the Calif races (usually Fairplex and Del Mar) looking like first-time starters in the PP's and running like old-pros when the gates open. Those fair-circuits races are supposed to be recorded on their "papers" which are in the racing office and which could be reported to the public if the racing office felt like it.

[speedking]

You've been prowling around out in Chester county too long. Some of those farms out there have pretty nice grass courses..

Richard, I used to get info from an on-course bookmaker who covered these meets from VA to PA and it was immensely helpful, especially when they shipped into NY and NJ.

speedking

[RonTiller]

The horse at Manor Downs and the horse at Charlestown are 2 different horses. Black Velvet Band at Manor Downs is a quarter horse with 1 race. Black Velvet Band at Charlestown is a thoroughbred with 7 races. Somebody got their horses mixed up. The horses are identified by their registration numbers in the official database, and quarter horse registration numbers always start with "Q".

Quarter horses, by definition, cannot race in a thoroughbred race. If there is 1 quarter horse entered in a race, the race becomes a quarter horse race. Thoroughbreds can race in quarter horse races though; they do so not infrequently at tracks like Los Alamitos. The PPs for thoroughbreds who race in quarter horse races should be available from any data distributor of Equibase data. They are part of the database and we have permission to publish them.

The AQHA controls the registration numbers of quarter horses; the Jockey Club controls the thoroughbreds. Equibase has agreements with the AQHA to get the AQHA data and distribute it.

There are a number of very small tracks that run unofficial races as part of their race cards - e.g. Brown County Fair, Dayton, Fort Pierre, Sandy Downs, Walla Walla, Blackfoot, Western Mountain Fair. As it was explained to me, a track may get a certain number of race dates from their state's regulatory authority and decide to race more races. Those "more" races are run as unofficial and do NOT go into the official pedigree records for the sire, dam, etc. They are not official wins, places, losses or anything.

The data is collected by Equibase, stored as unofficial races, and distributed to value added resellers to be distributed at their discretion. We distribute these unofficial races as part of a horse's PPs, with those races identified as unofficial. So you sometimes get horses at these tiny meets that have 7 or 8 unofficial races and 0 official races, giving them a record of 0, 0, 0, 0. Whether you want to call them first time starters is up to you. We only consider official races in compiling statistics. So few of these horses with unofficial races make it to larger mainstream tracks that the issue seldom even arises as to what to do about them. Informal races run at farms are even 1 more step removed from these.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[Tom]

Thanks, Ron.
Reminds me why I don't use BRIS charts;)

[takeout]

Thanks Ron. That cleared up a lot of stuff. Explains why I occasionally notice 2f races in the pps of T-breds that came from tracks like Del and Crc.

[cj]

Thanks Ron. That cleared up a lot of stuff. Explains why I occasionally notice 2f races in the pps of T-breds that came from tracks like Del and Crc.

There are actually 2f races run for t-breds only. I have seen them at Crc, FE, SA, and BM off the top of my head.

[takeout]

You might want to try the Equibase site for their chart since they're the original source.

Bob
Thanks. I did go there but I had forgotten that their free charts don’t even have a “last raced” section in them. I’ve always thought that was very strange. :confused:

[takeout]

There are actually 2f races run for t-breds only. I have seen them at Crc, FE, SA, and BM off the top of my head.
Wow. I didn’t realize that. I’m pretty much a one track dinosaur and just noticed it in the pps of the shippers. The ones I noticed recently were races for 2yr olds last year. Do you know when and why they started doing this?

[RonTiller]

2 furlong races for thoroughbreds have been run for at least as long as we have been doing this, since the mid 1990s. Getting good speed ratings for a 2 furlongs races, that can be accurately compared to speed ratings for longer distances, was such a near impossible chore that we stopped assigning these races speed ratings last year.

The vast majority of horses that race in 2 furlong races only race in 1 or 2 of them and move on. I found several horses though, that have run gobs of them. Pembroke Hall, for example, has made a career out of running 2 furlong races at FE and CRC. I guess these races are a place for quick off the start quitters to excel - the race is not long enough to reach the horses' quitting distance.

Tracks that have run 2 furlong races in the past few years: FE, SA, CRC, Pen, MPM, BM, FP, EMD, MDA, TUP, PRM, gg, WO, PM, Tdn, Boi, Del, Sdy, Sun, TP, Tam, CPW, GLD, WRD. 381 total since Jan 2000.

Ron Tiller
HDW

[takeout]

2 furlong races for thoroughbreds have been run for at least as long as we have been doing this, since the mid 1990s.
That amazing. I never really took notice of them before.

I wonder why they started them? Trouble filling races?

[46zilzal]

There are actually 2f races run for t-breds only. I have seen them at Crc, FE, SA, and BM off the top of my head.
silly aren't they?....Los Alamitos and a few others have mixed Q-horse and t-bred races at ultra short distances as well.