Youbet Handicapping Shows

[the little guy]

Beginning with the first weekend of April I will be hosting a handicapping show available to Youbet customers entitled " Playing to Win ". The shows are being produced by Youbet in conjunction with DRF. We will be doing about 20 shows throughout the year focusing on big race days and they will include handicapping segments where I will be joined by other handicappers such as Andy Beyer, Steve Crist, Mike Watchmaker and Steve Davidowitz. We plan to talk about the big races on these days but more importantly focus on our specific strategies and ideas for how to best make money on these specific days and races. While we will focus on the marquee races we are not necessarily limited to these races.

The shows will also include other segments, such as betting strategies, trip handicapping and many other handicapping ideas. Hopefully we will also be offering some more random replays for a " horses to watch " segment as well. We are very interested in thoughts and suggestions as the idea is to not only offer opinions but, more importantly, try and help make all of us better players. Any ideas for topics anyone here would like to see discussed would be most welcome. Also, I imagine we will offer a way to communicate through Youbet and they should be setting this up shortly.

And, oh yeah, there should be some kind of " Beat Andy " contest so that any of you eager for the easy task of " out-handicapping " me will finally get your, I'm sure, long awaited opportunity.

[cj]

Good luck with your new endeavor, I'm sure you will do great. It is too bad for me they won't let me sign up.

[the little guy]

Good luck with your new endeavor, I'm sure you will do great. It is too bad for me they won't let me sign up.

You're already too much smarter than everybody else.

[cj]

I need the entertainment, it rains a lot here. Seriously, I'm sure it will be very good and I know how seriously you prepare, unlike a lot of these other clowns on TV these days. It will be great having someone that actually bets serious money discuss the races.

[Tom]

Andy.
I am looking forward to it.
I'm still happy about the cold exacta you turned me onto at SIro's last year - filled my cooler up for a long drive home.:eek:

I have a sugestion for a guest for you...I'll PM you. :p

[PaceAdvantage]

Sounds great. But Beyer, Crist, Davidowitz and Watchmaker? It's kinda sad YouBet has to settle for such a "B" list.....:lol:

But seriously folks, those are the biggest names in the game, and I'll look forward to watching.

Many people consider money management and record keeping one of the major keys to success in this game, and I wouldn't mind hearing how some of the your guests approach this subject - in detail...particularly Beyer and Crist, as I have always perceived these two to be more of the "swing for the fences" type of player. It would be interesting to hear how they currently approach the subject of money management and record keeping, and how important they believe a structured MM approach is to their game.

[aaron]

Good luck Andy-
Maybe you could get Brad Thomas on.Should be a great job for you.

[beertapper]

i don't suppose there would be any chance of the show on youtube? i misread the title at first.. .but i can't sign up for youbet..

[Indulto]

Youbet Handicapping Shows

Beginning with the first weekend of Apwill be hosting a ril I handicapping show available to Youbet customers entitled " Playing to Win ". The shows are being produced by Youbet in conjunction with DRF. We will be doing about 20 shows throughout the year focusing on big race days and they will include handicapping segments where I will be joined by other handicappers such as Andy Beyer, Steve Crist, Mike Watchmaker and Steve Davidowitz. We plan to talk about the big raceson these daysbut more importantly focus on our specific strategies and ideas for how to best make money on these specific days and races. While we will focus on the marquee races we are not necessarily limited to these races.

The shows will also include other segments, such as betting strategies, trip handicapping and many other handicapping ideas. Hopefully we will also be offering some more random replays for a " horses to watch " segment as well. We are very interested in thoughts and suggestions as the idea is to not only offer opinions but, more importantly, try and help make all of us better players. Any ideas for topics anyone here would like to see discussed would be most welcome. Also, I imagine we will offer a way to communicate through Youbet and they should be setting this up shortly.tlg,
This is a very smart move for Youbet, and an ingenious recruiting device if in fact access is limited to Youbet customers. If so, I wonder whether it's in DRF’s long-term interest to exclude their subscribers who don’t wager through Youbet.

I suppose if you panelists were engaged independently of the DRF, the show would fall more in the category of a TVG or HRTV broadcast, but even those shows don’t (I think) utilize panelists representing vendors of data who are normally expected to be neutral as to where their customers wager.

However, the influential celebrity players representing the DRF are indirectly funded in their wagering endeavors by DRF customers who should be able to have their chances of winning enhanced (at some additional cost to be sure) without any ADW recruiting pressure.

It’s already unfortunate that those of us who can’t get to Las Vegas have to wait for the CDs of the EXPO to enjoy the fruits of your collective wisdom. It’s ridiculous to have to give up one’s SSN to get it.

[point given]

Sounds great. But Beyer, Crist, Davidowitz and Watchmaker? It's kinda sad YouBet has to settle for such a "B" list.....:lol:

But seriously folks, those are the biggest names in the game, and I'll look forward to watching.

Many people consider money management and record keeping one of the major keys to success in this game, and I wouldn't mind hearing how some of the your guests approach this subject - in detail...particularly Beyer and Crist, as I have always perceived these two to be more of the "swing for the fences" type of player. It would be interesting to hear how they currently approach the subject of money management and record keeping, and how important they believe a structured MM approach is to their game.

I read the latest Crist book on exotic wagering and he specifically stated that he keeps detailed records of all bets he makes and adds to his spreadsheet daily. This was in relation to him being called in by the IRS for a conversation. He had everything together and they weren't interested in him after that. BUT, I would be very interest in their take on money management.

[098poi]

As a Youbet user I look forward to this new venture. Congratulations to you. Hopefully the segments will be archived in case we can't see them live.

I think it would do Youbet, DRF and the industry well if you had periodic intro to handicapping or basic handicapping segments. Not for the experienced pros (like all those reading this right now) but for the person just getting into the sport. Horse racing is very user unfriendly by it's nature. Once you get past win, place and show it can be very intimidating. People grow up learning how to play baseball, basktball etc., and everyone has played poker around the kitchen table at some time in their life. (I know that won't make them a pro but they learn the basics) Horse racing takes a special interest to research on your own or some sort of mentor to get you started. There is such a potential market right now with the internet casino sites being restricted that this is a no brainer. If you had periodic segments with basic info like the tote, (odds, value etc.) using the racing form, conditions, what to focus on, wagering explanations and strategies and so on. If these were done in conjunction with DRF they could make available for free the old PP's you are using for your examples so new players could learn, practice and lose just like the rest of us. :D I have heard on At the Races and Beyond people say the bggest problem with horse racing is drugs and evil trainers. I thnk it is the fan base that should be addressed. Is it your job to teach people the basics? No but I bet DRF and Youbet want more customers not less.
Good luck!!

[TriSuper]

Hi all,

Been thinking of re-activating my youbet.com account. This announcement has just made my decision easier.

I've been thinking of joining DATT but they have failed to respond to any of my questions....Youbet.com here I come.

Thanks.

Patrick

[the little guy]

Thanks for the responses. Sorry I couldn't respond earlier but I was sadly stuck in Las Vegas.

The shows will be archived and there will also be a link on Youbet with links to short video explanations of many basic handicapping and horseplaying questions. Thanks for the suggestion. Using old pps for handicapping discussions sounds like a great idea. I will speak to Youbet and DRF about maybe doing something like that.

The money management thoughts also sound great and I will look into having segments on that. Beyer or Crist would be terrific for that.

Thanks again.

[the_fat_man]

tlg,
This is a very smart move for Youbet, and an ingenious recruiting device if in fact access is limited to Youbet customers. If so, I wonder whether it's in DRF’s long-term interest to exclude their subscribers who don’t wager through Youbet.

I suppose if you panelists were engaged independently of the DRF, the show would fall more in the category of a TVG or HRTV broadcast, but even those shows don’t (I think) utilize panelists representing vendors of data who are normally expected to be neutral as to where their customers wager.

However, the influential celebrity players representing the DRF are indirectly funded in their wagering endeavors by DRF customers who should be able to have their chances of winning enhanced (at some additional cost to be sure) without any ADW recruiting pressure.

It’s already unfortunate that those of us who can’t get to Las Vegas have to wait for the CDs of the EXPO to enjoy the fruits of your collective wisdom. It’s ridiculous to have to give up one’s SSN to get it.

smoking that sycophantic weed again, Indulto?

the part about waiting for the CD is priceless:lol:

I HANG (though not as heavily as you, evidently)

on every word of the HANDICAPPING INTELLIGENCIA

(especially those selling rather than making a living betting)

[Indulto]

smoking that sycophantic weed again, Indulto?

the part about waiting for the CD is priceless:lol:

I HANG (though not as heavily as you, evidently)

on every word of the HANDICAPPING INTELLIGENCIA

(especially those selling rather than making a living betting)tfm,
I've been waiting for you to put something over your boxing shorts and make a public appearance. I knew it would take suspicion of somebody putting something over on the public to make you surface again. ;)

Your post is very timely as the "handicapping intelligentsia" is preparing a domestic aid program for house-bound horseplayers such as yourself. At least that was the impression I got from ATRAB today.

[Indulto]

tlg,

Caught your Youbet-sponsored “New York State of Mind” appearance on ATRAB today. Are you now an official spokesman of theirs ala Pletcher? If so, does that mean you have to register here as an advertiser or can we here continue to count on your unadulterated reactions to racing–related issues, and anticipate informed commentary on ADW-related developments such as today’s news about CD, MEC, and HRTV? I expect Pletcher will get better treatment on the radio now as evidenced by the “nugget” you shared from your research on him for your “Super Trainer” panel presentation.

I was intrigued by your announced mission to “help horseplayers” and your priority for doing so over attracting new fans to racing. At that point I thought the moderator was reaching for the choke collar again, but then he himself had displayed similar “passion” in an earlier segment regarding the ADW news. I guess both your compatriots have finally figured out that stardom is just an on-air rant away. ;)

As a dedicated listener, I just can’t make up my mind whether “horseplayer’s little helper” or “little help to horseplayers” would be a more appropriate pseudonym change for you, but even I have to admit -- despite risking further ridicule from tfm -- your presence always elevates the entertainment value there. :D

JMHO of course. :lol:

[the_fat_man]

tfm,
I've been waiting for you to put something over your boxing shorts and make a public appearance. I knew it would take suspicion of somebody putting something over on the public to make you surface again. ;)

Your post is very timely as the "handicapping intelligentsia" is preparing a domestic aid program for house-bound horseplayers such as yourself. At least that was the impression I got from ATRAB today.

Must have me confused with your typical FAT MAN.

I rode 30 miles to the beach and back in 40 mph gusts today.

It was invigorating; especially going over the Gil Hodges bridges.

Not quite waiting on CDs from hawkers but pleasant, nonetheless.

Is that the stylish way to spell 'ARAB'?

Guess I gotta get with flow, daddy O:cool:

[the little guy]

It's tough for me to understand everything you're saying, I'm not really that smart, and the emoticons really further confuse me, but I will try to respond.

I said what I did in regards to the Horseplayer vs. New fans because I believe a couple things. One, I don't understand how the industry can pretend they are after " new " fans when they do little to help and/or defend the fans they already have. They should be worrying more about raising the withholding level from the absurd current $5K threshhold to a minimum of $25K to $50K as opposed to how to capture the imagination of a person entranced by Smarty Jones. What is their plan....to create new fans and then when they've got them they will treat them as poorly as they treat us? There's a business model. How can new people be expected to join in en masse when the model is currently broken? We're currently fighting racing entrepreneurs who want to RAISE takeout....and that's while getting slot money. We have many serious issues that need to be addressed just to desperately maintain the fan base we have. How we can even be discussing getting new fans without doing something about the myriad of current problems is way beyond me.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to introduce new people to the game, and like many of us attempt to do my small part in that endeavor. However, to truly help a new fan we need to teach them, and from what I can tell most racetracks have no interest or plan for doing this. For every Brad Thomas doing a paddock show, somebody that can really help horseplayers, we have a plethora of talking heads that add very little. Racetracks should be looking harder for hosts like him. The new fan that learns enough to cash a few bets will come back WAY more often than the fans that flocked to Belmont for Smarty Jones even if he had won.

As for tempering my act for Youbet....well they know who they have hired and ( shocking as it may seem ) like me. I don't, and won't, take cheap shots, and say nothing that I don't feel I can back up. But this industry needs more people not afraid to speak their minds. The status quo aint exactly making things happen.

[point given]

TLG writes -

"But this industry needs more people not afraid to speak their minds. The status quo aint exactly making things happen."

I hear Stronach is looking, give him a call. Maybe you can elucidate Gulfstreams new GM's thoughts , now that the South clubhouse simulcast room is now filled with sluts...er..... slots. After all RAcing is Gulfstreams #1 product. :rolleyes:

[Tote Master]

TLG
It's tough for me to understand everything you're saying, I'm not really that smart, and the emoticons really further confuse me, but I will try to respond. You really don’t need much in that regard to understand where Indulto is coming from. Some of us can still recognize and appreciate when others attempt to express the truth.
TLG
I said what I did in regards to the Horseplayer vs. New fans because I believe a couple things. One, I don't understand how the industry can pretend they are after " new " fans when they do little to help and/or defend the fans they already have. They should be worrying more about raising the withholding level from the absurd current $5K threshhold to a minimum of $25K to $50K as opposed to how to capture the imagination of a person entranced by Smarty Jones. What is their plan....to create new fans and then when they've got them they will treat them as poorly as they treat us? There's a business model. How can new people be expected to join in en masse when the model is currently broken? We're currently fighting racing entrepreneurs who want to RAISE takeout....and that's while getting slot money. We have many serious issues that need to be addressed just to desperately maintain the fan base we have. How we can even be discussing getting new fans without doing something about the myriad of current problems is way beyond me. This topic has been covered so many times, it’s really becoming boringly redundant. Obviously many don’t understand the difference between a “fan” and “player”. The fans will ALWAYS be attracted to this game, especially when there’s a TC hopeful. (But why the reference to Smarty Jones? An animal without the breeding to go a mile-and-a-half, and ridden by no-name (TC) jockey. Any decent player might have considered that!) Maybe some of those posting their comments about this game’s business outlooks will someday come to the realization that it’s 2007 and not 1977. Many things have changed over the last 30 years in our society, and well beyond just horseracing! Some things are perceived as being wrong with this game, but just look around you. You might find a few other things that have gone sour with what many deem as the traditional aspects of our culture. The ONLY thing PERMANENT in life is CHANGE! So unless you have a serious capital investment in this game, why not just go with the flow, and if you’re a real player, enjoy it while its still here. Good things don’t last forever!
TLG
Don't get me wrong, I would love to introduce new people to the game, and like many of us attempt to do my small part in that endeavor. However, to truly help a new fan we need to teach them, and from what I can tell most racetracks have no interest or plan for doing this. For every Brad Thomas doing a paddock show, somebody that can really help horseplayers, we have a plethora of talking heads that add very little. Racetracks should be looking harder for hosts like him. The new fan that learns enough to cash a few bets will come back WAY more often than the fans that flocked to Belmont for Smarty Jones even if he had won. Again, more confusion regarding the perception of fans versus players! I can only imagine what the “talking heads” might suggest for the new fans to “learn” in order to cash a few bets. Do they really have to learn anything, if they’re just fans? I doubt it! Players can also be fans of best animals the game has to offer, but fans are not and may never become players. There’s a huge difference between the levels of play and commitment to succeed between each group!
TLG
As for tempering my act for Youbet....well they know who they have hired and ( shocking as it may seem ) like me. I don't, and won't, take cheap shots, and say nothing that I don't feel I can back up. But this industry needs more people not afraid to speak their minds. The status quo ain’t exactly making things happen. Fans may enjoy all rhetoric and media hype disseminated by the “talking heads”, but personally I doubt that the players really care. Their GOALS are entirely different.

[Indulto]

It's tough for me to understand everything you're saying, I'm not really that smart, and the emoticons really further confuse me, but I will try to respond.

I said what I did in regards to the Horseplayer vs. New fans because I believe a couple things. One, I don't understand how the industry can pretend they are after " new " fans when they do little to help and/or defend the fans they already have. They should be worrying more about raising the withholding level from the absurd current $5K threshhold to a minimum of $25K to $50K as opposed to how to capture the imagination of a person entranced by Smarty Jones. What is their plan....to create new fans and then when they've got them they will treat them as poorly as they treat us? There's a business model. How can new people be expected to join in en masse when the model is currently broken? We're currently fighting racing entrepreneurs who want to RAISE takeout....and that's while getting slot money. We have many serious issues that need to be addressed just to desperately maintain the fan base we have. How we can even be discussing getting new fans without doing something about the myriad of current problems is way beyond me.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to introduce new people to the game, and like many of us attempt to do my small part in that endeavor. However, to truly help a new fan we need to teach them, and from what I can tell most racetracks have no interest or plan for doing this. For every Brad Thomas doing a paddock show, somebody that can really help horseplayers, we have a plethora of talking heads that add very little. Racetracks should be looking harder for hosts like him. The new fan that learns enough to cash a few bets will come back WAY more often than the fans that flocked to Belmont for Smarty Jones even if he had won.

As for tempering my act for Youbet....well they know who they have hired and ( shocking as it may seem ) like me. I don't, and won't, take cheap shots, and say nothing that I don't feel I can back up. But this industry needs more people not afraid to speak their minds. The status quo aint exactly making things happen.
tlg,
I’m sure you got my drift, but I applaud your not taking offense at a little humor at your expense, and I welcome return of same.

Certainly we agree that speaking one’s mind should be encouraged both inside the industry and out. We probably also agree that few slots patrons drawn to racinos will ever contribute directly to racing handle, that lower takeout for all is more desirable than rebates for some, and even that uniform rules of racing and greater steward accountability are desirable. Please take the remainder of my comments in the spirit of frank discussion with no intended personal affront.

You and I differ most emphatically on which portions of racing’s customer base we are interested in “defending.” Basically I see racing’s participants as divided into two categories: 1) those who depend on the conduct of racing for their livelihood or regular augmentation of income, and 2) those who primarily seek entertainment in some fashion from their involvement.

I think you belong in a subset of the first group; one which I have heard consists of less than 2% of the entire base while contributing approximately 10% of handle. It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that 10-20% of PA membership also fell into that subset which survives at the expense of the “entertainment group.” If you don’t take our money directly through the windows, you sell us “services” to “support” our participation and/or provide us with additional entertainment.

Representing the DRF, your job is to influence more people to buy data products and various instruction/entertainment products. Representing Youbet, your agenda is to get people to bet more and get more people to bet. As a well-bankrolled and talented exotic bettor, you benefit from increased non-competitive participation in the pools.

Of course there is much that you and other experienced players can and will communicate to those willing to be exposed, but relatively few of them will exercise the passion, determination, focus, and intestinal fortitude required to duplicate your success. And if they were capable of doing so, they would do it even without the benefit of the shows and seminars.

So while I agree that current tax withholding practice is illogical and unfair, frankly it only affects a very small group of customers, including some without whom the NYRA mutual teller debacle might never have occurred. From my perspective it is far more important to lower exotic wager minimums, eliminate volume-based rebates, obtain expanded data at lower cost, and put an end to exorbitant charges for ancillary services.

Your idea of a level playing field is a venue where medication of horses is severely restricted. Mine is where bankroll size provides neither advantage to experienced bettors nor inhibition to new players.

Does it really surprise you that statements of questionable benevolence might invite skepticism? It appears that your announced endeavors have at least as much entertainment value as educational benefit, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. I even expect to purchase access to them if they are not restricted to Youbet account holders – a factor you have yet to confirm or deny.

[the little guy]

I have to say that while YOU may find your internet candor refreshing, it actually comes across as, at best, insulting, and actually belies the work I have previously done in racing.

The simple fact for anybody that watched me do " Talking Horses " with Mike Watchmaker back in the mid 90s or the Siro's Seminars in Saratoga knows that I don't sell products and pour my handicapping heart and soul into every show that I do. I do hours of work on every card and divulge all I uncover, for better or worse, and have never held anything back. So, while you may consider this naive, it is a defendable truth.

The one product from DRF I continually endorse is Formulator and I do this because it is a GREAT product and can only help horseplayers win. Call me a shill if you want, but I frankly think the gains by any player who pays the extra 50 cents for this product over the regular pps substantially outweighs the meager gains to DRF. I have had many people thank me for turning them on to Formulator. What is better than selling ANY product that helps people?

As far as my goals for Youbet, while what you said makes some obvious sense, like the above paragraph things work hand in hand. An better informed player will possibly enjoy playing more because he is having more success. And, yes, because of this he may bet more. However, he is not being misled or suckered, as even with his increased handle his bottom line may well be more favorable to him ( or her ). It is possible, you know, for EVERYBODY to benefit in a healthy industry. What could possibly be wrong with that?

I am not having delusions of grandeur here that what I do makes a big difference, but I believe it is a step in the right direction, and I am happy to be involved in ANY endeavor that has positive repercussions. I look forward to the opportunity and challenge that lays ahead of me and will do my best to make these shows informative and entertaining. Hopefully the shows will be as hilarious as Tote Master's posts.....and at least a LITTLE more informative. A man can dream.

[Dave Schwartz]

TLG,

I have not had the pleasure of seeing the show yet but hope to catch one ASAP. I wish you well and am sure that you will succeed at this endeavor.

I am also in agreement with your above post.

It is amazing that horse players spend so much time screaming for more and better information (in whatever form it may take) and when someone delivers the information it never seems to be quite good enough.

Thanks for your continued efforts. I look forward to learning something from you.


Kind Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[jma]

I'm looking forward to the shows too. I didn't want to post just to say how great you are or anything (ha), but you do a good job on all the shows I've heard/seen you on, and I'm sure this will be more of the same quality work. Jerry

[Indulto]

I have to say that while YOU may find your internet candor refreshing, it actually comes across as, at best, insulting, and actually belies the work I have previously done in racing.

... As far as my goals for Youbet, while what you said makes some obvious sense, like the above paragraph things work hand in hand. An better informed player will possibly enjoy playing more because he is having more success. And, yes, because of this he may bet more. However, he is not being misled or suckered, as even with his increased handle his bottom line may well be more favorable to him ( or her ). It is possible, you know, for EVERYBODY to benefit in a healthy industry. What could possibly be wrong with that?tlg,

It’s unfortunate that you find my “candor” insulting because no aspersions are being cast on your intentions, integrity, ability, or accomplishments. There is obviously demand for your talent for vocal entertainment, and now for your influence as a source of outspoken opinion. There’s certainly nothing wrong with any of that.

I wasn’t aware that you publicly endorse Formulator, but that’s hardly a conflict of interest or a compromise of integrity. In fact, I regard the DRF, generally, as a positive influence on the sport and the game. Since Crist took over, it has been a valuable source of support for horseplayers and racing fans far beyond that of a data vendor. Consequently, when you announced you would be a speaker at the EXPO, I interpreted it as an expression of celebration for a coming-of-age event like a graduation or wedding, and not a marketing vehicle.

I see the Youbet relationship differently. My first reaction was: Why is it appropriate for PTC (or DS for that matter) to indicate they are representatives of advertisers, but not you as someone hired by Youbet? Through you, Youbet is promoting their business and soliciting customers just like PTC. (Perhaps PTC will respond with celebrity web-based seminars of their own.;))

The combination of your Youbet announcement with your ATRAB appearance as a “helpful handicapper” protecting downtrodden professionals trying to exploit frostbitten degenerates at the expense of new fair-weather fan recruitment "came across" to me as daffier than a Warner Brothers cartoon. That was the basis for my post #16.

Face it, tlg. You’re a funny guy – sometimes intentionally; sometimes not. And what’s even funnier, the “not” seems to work to your advantage. Now that’s talent!

[Tom]

No one will mind if you don't watch.

Kudos to TLG for doing someting positive.

[Indulto]

No one will mind if you don't watch.Of course! It's YouBet, not YouWatch. Thank you, Tom, for relieving me of all that responsibility.

[Tom]

Positively! :jump:
And we certainly won’t mind that you need to watch! ;)

WE?

You got a mouse in your pocket. Or up your as....cot?

You and Indulto having a slow week - nothing better to do but hang out and knock people enjoy the game? Life in re-runs now that sweeps is over?

I've heard TLG analyze races, and I've been to your site. (Didn't know Mike Warren was still working in racing!) No contest.

[the little guy]

Actually, Tote Master may make an appearance on the show. We're considering doing a segment on charlatans.

[Indulto]

... It is amazing that horse players spend so much time screaming for more and better information (in whatever form it may take) and when someone delivers the information it never seems to be quite good enough.DS,
Obviously at one time you felt more information was needed and then did something about it. Unfortunately, data pricing is volume based and DRF plan data is sold by race card. My ideal plan would be an annual package including all stakes races with a purse of at least $60,000 at all tracks together with any races completing a pick four sequence containing those stakes races. I currently pay for more data than I could possibly use without getting all I would like. I don't think it's unreasonable to want to obtain all the data one could actually use at a cost which would make it practical for all of it to actually be used.

[cj]

Indulto,

This is way off topic, but you can do just what you want with BRIS' Custom Card option. I believe you can do the same with TSN.

[Tote Master]

Tom
WE?
You got a mouse in your pocket. Or up your as....cot?

You and Indulto having a slow week - nothing better to do but hang out and knock people enjoy the game? Life in re-runs now that sweeps is over?

I've heard TLG analyze races, and I've been to your site. (Didn't know Mike Warren was still working in racing!) No contest.Yes Tom. “WE” meaning players not fans. Some of us actually know what the game is all about. And it isn’t rooting for your favorite horsey. It’s about making money, but as a fan you might not appreciate that or have similar goals. It's funny how you can dish it out with your enlightening “one-liners, but its apparent you can’t seem to handle any contradictory comments.

I don’t know about Indulto, but I’m having a great week! Actually I’m doing exactly what TLG has suggested: TLG
But this industry needs more people not afraid to speak their minds. The status quo aint exactly making things happen.

I’m glad you’ve listened to the so-called gurus analyze races. Unfortunately, you’ll never have the opportunity to witness a race analysis from an entirely different perspective, that is based on something you apparently know nothing about. I can’t speak for Mike Warren, but aside from any of his methodologies, his goals were very respectful. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I doubt that the majority of fans like you even comprehend his betting strategies. It’s always easy to knock something when it’s a bit more difficult to understand, or when you know there won't be any repudiation.
TLG
Actually, Tote Master may make an appearance on the show. We're considering doing a segment on charlatans. Well, you certainly wouldn’t want me as a quest. I couldn’t possibly offer the same pretense that such a highly regarded group could offer the unwitting fan.
TLG
As for tempering my act for Youbet....well they know who they have hired and ( shocking as it may seem ) like me. I don't, and won't, take cheap shots, and say nothing that I don't feel I can back up. Oh really! Now tell us another one. Talk about hilarious: If this were an example of how the gurus protect their sacred images, I’d hate to see what’s written when confronted with the actual realities of this game.

Lots of luck with your new show.
Sincerely,
Your Para-mutual friend

[Indulto]

Indulto,

This is way off topic, but you can do just what you want with BRIS' Custom Card option. I believe you can do the same with TSN.Thanks, CJ. I appreciate the input. If they're willing to do it, maybe there's hope that DRF will eventually match their competition.

BTW what is YOUR take on Formulator?

[cj]

Disclaimer: I did some testing on various products for DRF so I don't pay for them.

I like Formulator a lot. I do not, however, use most of the features that many people praise. I am not saying they are not worthwhile, as I know that they are. However, I just don't have time to do the in depth research that Formulator allows.

I have little doubt I could improve my ROI if I used it, but at the same time, there are only so many hours in the day, and what I lose in ROI I make up for in volume.

[Indulto]

Disclaimer: I did some testing on various products for DRF so I don't pay for them.

I like Formulator a lot. I do not, however, use most of the features that many people praise. I am not saying they are not worthwhile, as I know that they are. However, I just don't have time to do the in depth research that Formulator allows.

I have little doubt I could improve my ROI if I used it, but at the same time, there are only so many hours in the day, and what I lose in ROI I make up for in volume.How many races can you play in a day and how much time do you actually spend on the process?

[cj]

CHeck PMs, too far off topic.

[Tote Master]

By the way, just for the record this is now the 2nd time (that I’m aware of) that PA has intentionally removed one of my comments. (Tom did quote a portion of it in comment #28 )

I didn’t realize that this site (a supposedly open forum) supports censorship of any rebuttal. Obviously there’s certain flavor of favoritism on PA and no concern for thread continuity. So beware of what you say!

I’m curious as to what the Power’s-to-be are so afraid of?

[PaceAdvantage]

I’m curious as to what the Power’s-to-be are so afraid of?

We're afraid of losing viewership due to your constant attempt to take threads off-topic with your condescending, shallow replies and thinly-veiled flame-filled posts.

Like I said privately, unless you plan on contributing in a more meaningful manner in the future, don't bother. That starts now.

[AwolAtPA]

We're afraid of losing viewership due to your constant attempt to take threads off-topic with your condescending, shallow replies and thinly-veiled flame-filled posts.

Like I said privately, unless you plan on contributing in a more meaningful manner in the future, don't bother. That starts now.

just want to say Thank You, PA

and hope that others who enjoy put downs and off topic postings have taken note that readers prefer informative and positive discussions.

yes, count me among readers that say, Good Job, PA

duane

[Tote Master]

PA
We're afraid of losing viewer ship due to your constant attempt to take threads off-topic with your condescending, shallow replies and thinly veiled flame-filled posts.

Like I said privately, unless you plan on contributing in a more meaningful manner in the future, don't bother. That starts now Come on. Now! That statement must be a joke! Right? “Losing Viewers?”
By introducing censorship you’ll be losing more then just Viewers.

There are also quite a few adjectives used in recounting my comments. However, I beg to differ as to who was going “off topic” on this thread. You might want to also re-read the thread through to see whose statements are truly “condescending”. If any others consider my comments derisive, then I apologize, but if anyone has ever really noticed my statements NEVER attack anyone personally. I can’t say the same about even some of the other comments on this thread.

As I’ve mentioned before, there’s obviously a double standard when dealing with posters on the PA forum. From my own perspective, I’ve read so much B.S., that sometimes I feel its appropriate to let others know that there are some that don’t go along with all the nonsense that’s being perpetuated about this game. Why? Well, very simple. For decades people have been lead like sheep to the slaughterhouse by listening to the handicapping gurus. Based on the actual winning population, does anyone really believe that following these antiquated methods is going to develop a new customer base?

Whenever I’ve tried to provide some meaningful information, or counter some of the traditional thinking, it’s been met with the typical accusations and cynicism. And that’s fine by me, because I know the characteristics of the typical bettor. One might ask why so many are skeptical about any new approach that is “outside-the-box”. Obviously they don’t even have faith in the methods that they’re currently using. Its ironic that so many so-called experts (that are making so much money) have promoted them as “tried and true”. They MUST be the only way to fly. Right?
Well this is one player who knows different.

If that’s too much for others to handle, then so be it. I will never post a comment to just conform to the “status quo” or pacify the uninformed. If having a different opinion or viewpoint is considered counter productive, then I question the entire concept of an “Open Forum”. I say, “If you can’t take the heat get out of the kitchen”. If I'm kicked out of the kitchen because my recipe is something out of the ordinary, then I would question what's really cookin!

I don’t comment or play this game to satisfy others. My methods, as unorthodox as they may seem must meet only one person’s criteria for success. That’s good enough for me! Sometime ago I made a free Trial offering on PA available. Some that were able to think for themselves took advantage. While some perceived it as advertising ploy for some scheme, others recognized that if it doesn’t work or produce, then why would anyone in their right mind pay for it! Some might appreciate the expression, “You get what you pay for.”

Best of Luck!

[PaceAdvantage]

Come on. Now! That statement must be a joke! Right? “Losing Viewers?”
By introducing censorship you’ll be losing more then just Viewers.

You act as if some groundbreaking post was deleted. What was deleted was just more garbage that served nobody. You never offer specifics, you never offer substance. You dance around the issues while talking in nothing but condescending tones. You contribute close to zero. If I'm wrong, please, let some other long standing members of this message board correct me....I can take it....

The only joke here seems to be you, especially when you come to the defense of Anderon and his silly tote method that produces nothing but losers. No offense to Anderon, but the facts are the facts.

Nobody presented themselves as a GURU in this thread, yet you throw around this word, only to "start trouble" where there is none. TLG has never proclaimed to be a guru, and I'm sure he'd be quite uncomfortable with that moniker. If anyone is coming across as a guru here, it's you Totemaster (hell, you can even smell it in your name).

Now, back to the topic at hand. Any more off-topic posts will be deleted, not in the name of censorship, but in the name of thread continuity and civility....if you want to continue this, start a new thread, or go through private channels.

[thelyingthief]

if it's decisive and insightful observation you're looking for, paceadvantage is rarely enough wont to provide it.

if, however, you want opinion, and believe that evidence consists of one part conceit and 9 parts pretension; if you confuse logic for the axioms on which it operates; if you're impressed by banalities presented in a grave and pontifical manner; or, if you believe a contributor is supported in his authority by sporting a url, computer program (which he'll happily sell you for some number of oodles), or pace related widget, then sucker, welcome to Mecca.

i would not, for all the world, accuse PA of bias, and most certainly not question his right to implement any that he has, if he so choose; i will honor any of his by-laws, and you should to the same.

for if it seems that some may speak and others not, and if it also seems that they who speak are handicapping's equivalent of sausage sellers, tis not for we to question it, dear friends; tis for we to populate his site, and nod.

i'm nodding now.

[PaceAdvantage]

That was really, really beautiful prose....I'm quite impressed....however, please address the following Shakespearean-like doodad:

for if it seems that some may speak and others not....

Who exactly are the ones who "may not speak?" Seriously...who? You name them, and I'll tell you why. (Odds are, they have a URL or a computer program or book or pace-related widget that they are trying to advertise for free).

ANYONE is free to register for FREE and type away at will. Been that way for nearly eight years now. I'll take on anyone in a civil debate (in a separate thread) who wishes to prove otherwise.

So, as someone once said....BRING IT ON. But bring it on in ANOTHER THREAD, preferably in OFF-TOPIC.

Thanks.

[Premier Turf Club]

I see the Youbet relationship differently. My first reaction was: Why is it appropriate for PTC (or DS for that matter) to indicate they are representatives of advertisers, but not you as someone hired by Youbet? Through you, Youbet is promoting their business and soliciting customers just like PTC. (Perhaps PTC will respond with celebrity web-based seminars of their own.;))

We'd love to have web-based seminars at some point, and would be pleased to have someone like Andy do them. I grew up in NY and always enjoyed Andy's analysis. Those were the good old days, Andy, Steve Crist, Paul Cornman, Harvey Pack, etc. Unfortunately, I'm still wrestling with integrating data files into our website, Equibase, TrackMaster, Rosnet, Charlson Technologies. Of course, all somewhat different formats, and those monthly royalty fees! It's amazing what's NOT in a tote feed. For those that don't know all you get is program number, odds, probables, scratches. That's about it. No horse name, trainer, jockey, ML odds, weight, conditions, surface changes, jockey changes, etc. Actually we're very fortunate that those vendors have been willing to work with us while we try to get this up and running. I know I digress.

And I know its not fashionable to praise your competitors, but I think Youbet's site is so much better than anything currently else out there it's a joke. I have always liked playing there.

[NoCal Boy]

I have not played on other sites than Youbet, but I do agree that it is a good site. I was surprised that Churchill did not use Youbet's site for their own (or maybe they are given Evans' comments about outsourcing on Thursday). Ten again, I am surprised Churchill doesn;t just buy Youbet and get their long time tote company and the rebate company along with the ADW. Perhaps Magna stopped that one in order to sell 50% of HRTV. I still believe ADW's like Youbet that bring wide distribution will pay more of a 6% rate on a blended basis, with higher rates on premium days like the Derby. Anything will be better than what TVG charged for the signals. Do you expect Churchill to start announcing deals with ADW's like Youbet soon?

[WJ47]

I haven't bet on Youbet for more than three years (I usually wager with Brisbet), but it sounds like all sorts of fun things are going on with these shows and the contests! So I gave in and reactivated my account tonight! :) I can't wait to see the show!

I used to much prefer Youbet to Brisbet, but they stopped being able to process my bank debit card. It always worked, but then my bank (Charter One) was purchased by Citizens Bank and the card wouldn't work anymore for Youbet. Brisbet was always able to get it to go through. I could see a regular credit card getting declined, but the debit card is directly attached to my bank account. :) I see that there is an Express Cash option so I think I'll try that to fund Youbet with.

I always liked how Youbet displays the horses names in the betting window. Brisbet only uses the numbers and I can't even remember how many times I mixed up the current odds with the horse number when putting in a last minute bet. :)

[the little guy]

Thanks. We filmed the first real show tonight and it will be up on Youbet tomorrow.

I look forward to any thoughts, criticisms, or ideas about the show.

[098poi]

This may have been covered but has Youbet lost Churchill Downs?

[turfbar]

I have the same problem with them with my credit card
whats up with that?I have a different bank and credit card than you,
I constantly get letters from my credit card co. months later that I will be charged for a charge I placed months ago,it gets to be a nuisance because I have to keep on top with 2 sets of records ? Anyone else having these problems with Youbet.

Sincerely
Turfbar

[DeoVolente]

Looking forward to the show. When on Friday is the show going to be available?

[the little guy]

Looking forward to the show. When on Friday is the show going to be available?


It should be available VERY soon.

[WJ47]

Will the show just appear on the front page when ready or will there be a special link?

[classhandicapper]

Is there a specific time or way I can know when the show will be on. I have a Youbet account and would like to watch. Good luck.

[NoCal Boy]

The PR put out by Youbet this morning sounds like this show will be a big winner. Weekly through the BC. Can not wait to have the interactive portion.

Still wonder why Churchill did not simply just go with Youbet for its ADW. Strange.

[candystripes]

Just talked to the folks at Youbet. The show will be available for access at some point today at www.youbet.com (http://www.youbet.com), as well as via link off their main betting program.

Can't wait to check it out.

[Thess]

Here is the link - http://www.youbet.com/playingtowin/

[bigmack]

Andy - Ask the cameraman if he's familiar with a "two shot" as it's a bit awkward to be shooting Watchmaker while you're speaking. Also, ask the set manager if they can spring for a round table to be placed in front of you and your guest(s). Hosts & guests having to hold and sometimes fumble with their notes and fold their legs or not fold their legs is so "local access cabley".

Perhaps go over the script with the production folk so as you move to discuss another race they can put up a CGI of the entrants so those unfamiliar with the fields can get an overview of the participants. That could easily be inserted in post production as well.

Nice work on your part. Production wise they could offer a bit more support.

[the little guy]

Good catch on your part. The camera situation for the Handicapping segment will NOT happen again. It was a bit of a glitch that unfortunately we did not find out about until it was too late. We have a table and that is a good idea about the notes.....as is the idea of putting up a graphic of the fields. I will try and impliment that for next week.

Thanks.

By the way....script?

[dylbert]

Andy,

Just watched first edition and very much enjoyed show and its format. I agreed with you and Mike Watchmaker on several picks.

Any Given Saturday -- Wood Memorial

Bold Start -- Illinois Derby

Sam P. -- SA Derby

I am going to consider other horse that you and he discussed for exotics. SA Derby may offer fabulous return with its dime superfecta. Liquidity and King of the Roxy will both take substantial amounts of bettor cash. Playing it for a signer!!!

Keep up the good work and let's cash some big ones tomorrow...

[bigmack]

By the way....script?
You mean that's all extemporaneous? No teleprompter no nothin'? Nice!

Only other thing is don't forget to smile after delivering the tag line line, "When you play, play to win". From my experience in production people feel better about what they've watched when it ends with a smile. I know it's corny as Kansas but hey, you're Hollywood now.

I'll be counting the number of times A Beyer uses "you know" next week. Perhaps he can top the number of times Pacino used F in Scarface.

[the little guy]

No teleprompter. I work on the segments leading up to the show, and write notes down, but I don't use notes or a teleprompter for the show.

Thanks Dylbert.....I hope our agreeing is a good sign.

[Tom]

How long will the segments be left up for viewing?

[Indulto]

Congratulations, tlg.

It was a very worthwhile show that promises to get even better. You’ve certainly found your medium. I’ve heard all your ATRAB segments and I’ve heard Watchman live at an SW introduction seminar. It’s hard to imagine you both were able to cover so much ground and speak so clearly and unhesitatingly without knowing exactly what you were going to say ahead of time.

Good luck with this endeavor. If anything is likely to create more bettors in boxing shorts, this is it. ;)

[WJ47]

I just finished watching the show and I thought it was excellent! I can't wait until the next episode with Andy Beyer. I started reading Andy's books when I was a teenager; I'm 38 now and still re-read them often. I don't think anyone has ever written a book on racing more enjoyable than Andy Beyer. I wish he'd write some more! :)

TLG, do you write the material for the show yourself? I thought it had a great format and I think the Hidden Horse part was especially good. :) It was way more insightful than anything I've seen on TVG. I haven't looked at the forms for tomorrow yet, but I feel I have a headstart now.

[the little guy]

I do " write " all the segments. It's just a question of coming up with ideas and then basically riffing on them. " The Hidden Horse " is more specific, and entails coming up with specific horses which isn't always so easy, though I saw a potential one today. I hope sometimes to come up with a horse I know is racing that Saturday and go through its pps as sort of a handicapping exercise. This week's " hidden horse " is actually in, at a mile, Wednesday at Aqueduct, but unfortunately seems to be in unusually tough.

[keilan]

Hey Andy – just finished watching and wish you continued success in the new show. :ThmbUp:

[Milleruszk]

Andy,

I just finished watching the new show. I thought your point about looking for hidden form on horses that had not run particuarly well on the Aqueduct inner to be insightful. Bettors will be mumbling to themselves, "form reversal", after these horses show an improved effort on the Aqueduct main.
Good stuff. I can't wait till next week's show! :ThmbUp:

[Spendabuck85]

Enjoyed the show and thankfully don't recall hearing the word "contentious". Seems like it's used in every racing show from Capital OTB to national broadcasts and has to be the most overused word.

[NoCal Boy]

Good job on the show. When the first show out of the box is well done, then this should be fun for the rest of the year into the Breeders Cup.

Will the show be restricted to Youbet subscribers going forward, or will it stay open to everyone?

[the little guy]

First of all, thanks to everyone for the kind words, they are much appreciated.

It is my understanding the show will always be available as it is now. If that changes for some reason I will let you know.

[Tom]

Try to get Sanjaya on as a guest. :jump:

[steel6061]

Great show TLG. One thought that came to mind while watching the show (as a die hard horseplayer) is getting your thoughts on say the late pick 4 at Keeneland which as we all know offers major value (usually). Obviously the newcomer to the sport may not know where to look or what to think when you talk about a 50000 claiming race with a 12 horse field, but at least for the horseplayers it would be great to see who you like. Tomorrow there is a great allowance race at Keeneland going 1 1/8 miles with graded caliber horses in there which is one of the legs of late pick 4, which in turn can key a big pick 4 payoff. I know I am being very specific here, but another example is the card at Santa Anita tomorrow which I will be at, the early and late pick 4's are tough, large fields and offer just a ridiculous amount of value and is what I believe gets guys like you and me excited. How can your insight on these plays be utilized for us as well, I realize time is limited and the big stakes races are what make the headines. Like you said at the end of the show hopefully the big money races won't have 4 or 5 horse fields throughout the year, because in my opinion thats what makes the big racing days awful. Hope this makes sense. Looking forward to the show next week.

Steel

[the little guy]

Thanks, and I actually agree with you, and am hoping to do some stuff like that in the future. To be honest, that late Keeneland Pick-4 tomorrow would have been a good one to discuss, and perhaps I can do something like that next week. Situations like that are good for laying out ticket structure which can actually supercede the specific opinions.

I am hoping to discuss multi-race ticket structure with Beyer next week and perhaps we can use the late Pick-4 next week at Keeneland for an example. It will include the Commonwealth and Blue Grass, which is fine with overlap and cuts down on the total handicapping discussion, so it should work well.

Thanks for the insights.

[PaceAdvantage]

Just finished watching it and I gotta say I enjoyed the show. It offered a good variety of topics and didn't bog itself down in any one subject in particular.

I particularly liked the Hidden Horse segment. Can't wait for next week and Beyer....

One thing though is that if it weren't for this thread, I would have no clue where to find the show. When I go to youbet.com I am presented with a "beta" page they are testing out, and nowhere on it is a link to the show (or a way to go back to the 'normal' home page). After I log into my account, again, I can't find a link to the show anywhere.

Where exactly is the link to the show on the youbet site?

[bigmack]

Where exactly is the link to the show on the youbet site?
Bottom of the page, middle ban.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/youbet.jpg

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't get that version of the home page. I'm 'lucky' enough to be getting some sort of 'beta' page which has no mention of the handicapping show...

[bigmack]

I don't get that version of the home page. I'm 'lucky' enough to be getting some sort of 'beta' page which has no mention of the handicapping show...
As in the words of the great Billy Austin & Louis Jordan, "Is you Is, or Is You Ain't", a member of youbet.com?

And then, it only works in IE...FYI....CIA.... FBI.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh I'm definitely a member of YouBet....

[Tom]

PA - Ihave the same beta screen you do....nice of them to experiment on customers without their consent. Do I get a rebate? I sent them my - comnents - like, fix the dam vidoe and leave the homepage alone. Dipsticks.

Andy - great show. I love you signature sign off - I'm out of the Box! :ThmbUp:

I can see you moving on to Handicapping with the Stars, Amercian Bettor, or maybe even Survivor: Aqueduct! :lol:

Serioulsy, nice job - congrats.

[trigger]

tlg, Any plans to interview Len F (Sheets) or Jerry B (Thorograph) in the future?

[the little guy]

tlg, Any plans to interview Len F (Sheets) or Jerry B (Thorograph) in the future?


None. Nothing against them, or their ideas, and I am friendly with Jerry, but to honestly do an interview with them, where they got to present their thoughts and I could rebut, would probably be both too long and perhaps a bit overly technical. Also, to be honest, I wonder how eager either gentleman would be to do the show.

However, it's a good thought, and if the opportunity presented itself sometime in the future I am more than open to looking into it.

[the little guy]

PA - Ihave the same beta screen you do....nice of them to experiment on customers without their consent. Do I get a rebate? I sent them my - comnents - like, fix the dam vidoe and leave the homepage alone. Dipsticks.

Andy - great show. I love you signature sign off - I'm out of the Box! :ThmbUp:

I can see you moving on to Handicapping with the Stars, Amercian Bettor, or maybe even Survivor: Aqueduct! :lol:

Serioulsy, nice job - congrats.


Thanks Tom.

I've never watched a reality show but if they're willing to pay me enough I am definitely open to humiliation and embarrassment.

[Dan Montilion]

Put Len F. and Jerry B. on the same show. Ask one question and take the next half hour off.

[the little guy]

Put Len F. and Jerry B. on the same show. Ask one question and take the next half hour off.



Half hour? I would probably need a year to recover.

[classhandicapper]

Good job. You know it's a good show when you don't agree with everything being said, but you understand the points being made and respect the opinions. :ThmbUp:

[classhandicapper]

Put Len F. and Jerry B. on the same show. Ask one question and take the next half hour off.

I think the UFC is doing auditions for their next Ultimate Fighter show. That might be a better choice. ;)

[the little guy]

I'm filming the second show with Beyer tomorrow and it will be up around noon Friday. I've already gone through much of it with Beyer and I really think it's going to be a lot of fun. I hope people get a chance to watch and I once again look forward to any thoughts or criticisms.

[jma]

I thought the first show was great for a first show, which isn't much of a criticism or comment, but...

[Milleruszk]

I'm filming the second show with Beyer tomorrow and it will be up around noon Friday. I've already gone through much of it with Beyer and I really think it's going to be a lot of fun. I hope people get a chance to watch and I once again look forward to any thoughts or criticisms.

As Harvey Pack would say...."Big Andy and Little Andy." What more could you want? I am looking forward to seeing this one. :jump:

[rrbauer]

... I once again look forward to any thoughts or criticisms.

Regarding the first show and Pick-3's. Why would anyone play a Pick-3 using the three favs unless they were playing it 100 times and nothing else? That combination (generically, universally) has to be one of the most overplayed combinations in the game and it takes so little time to structure tickets that omit it while retaining the overall thrust of a play.

[the little guy]

Regarding the first show and Pick-3's. Why would anyone play a Pick-3 using the three favs unless they were playing it 100 times and nothing else? That combination (generically, universally) has to be one of the most overplayed combinations in the game and it takes so little time to structure tickets that omit it while retaining the overall thrust of a play.


I don't disagree and in general unless, as you suggest, you are cementing one number, with the plethora of available Pick-3s, one should look to cherry pick the ones where at least one favorite is vulnerable.

Beyer and I are going to discuss some multi-race plays at Keeneland for Saturday.

[bigmack]

What color are you going with - standard white?

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/NT_16_Dogschool_7777copy.jpg

[the little guy]

How did you know?

[bigmack]

How did you know?
Silly guys put a press release out on it

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u70/macktime/youb.jpg

[Zaf]

Can't wait to see the show tomorrow :lol:

Z

[the little guy]

Silly guys put a press release out on it




I meant how did you know it was white?

[bigmack]

I meant how did you know it was white?
Just took a stab at it. You'll have to be careful. With this Imus mess afoot a tall, white pointed hat is the last thing you want to be donned in.

Is the Fri Show already "in the can"?

[the little guy]

Just took a stab at it. You'll have to be careful. With this Imus mess afoot a tall, white pointed hat is the last thing you want to be donned in.

Is the Fri Show already "in the can"?


Yes. We shot it this afternoon.

[WJ47]

I just finished watching the latest show and it was really awesome! :) This is great that there is a good show like this online now; I was looking forward to watching it all week. Who will be the guest next week? Andy Beyer was a delightful guest, it was hilarious when he mentioned that he had researched the 2nd place finisher in the one race and he was a dog! He looked like he got alot of pleasure in announcing that tidbit!

I enjoyed the hidden horse segment and how you mentioned to always watch the competition in the races they are entered in. I used to add horses to my watchlist when I saw a good performance/lots of race trouble and then bet them when they ran again. It didn't work out so well because I'd be so fixated on the horse I liked that I'd fail to notice how good the other horses were. I like that part of the show because I'm not the best at trip handicapping and its helpful to see some examples.

I'm supposed to be working on a term paper on Shirley Jackson's The Lottery that is due for a college class on Monday, but I'm too distracted by the races this week! :) I'm off to watch that replay of the horse you mentioned in the 10th race at Keeneland.

[the little guy]

Thanks.

We aren't doing another show for almost three weeks. We are doing two shows Derby week, one for the Oaks card and one for the Derby card, and Beyer will be the guest on both shows.

[bigmack]

It could easily be 45+ minutes long and still hold interest. They did a nice job with the Hidden Horse graphic.

I believe I heard out west here that O'Neill wants you to give him a call and have a little yap about the continuing strategy for Liquidity

[Hajck Hillstrom]

C'mon Andy..... I was hoping you would thin the herd a little more than that! I managed just one winner in the "BEAT THE PRO CHALLENGE," but that winner was LA COPIAN at SA ($36.30 & $13.00), and I zigged when I should have zagged with CREAM ONLY at OP, opting for STELLA'S NEW GROOVE, costing me a placing.

I caught the show with Beyer, and you have my personal stamp of approval.:ThmbUp:

Continued success with PLAYING TO WIN!

[chickenhead]

Didn't get a chance to catch you guys until just now, but I enjoyed it. Good stuff.

[the little guy]

Thanks guys.

Yeah, my performance in the contest was stellar......was I last?

[Dave Schwartz]

TLG,

Caught your show last week. Have not had a chance to watch this week's yet.

You did a great job. Good analysis.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

[the little guy]

Thanks Dave. I appreciate it.

[Zaf]

I really enjoyed the Big-Little Andy show ! Unfortunately they had to handicap races they would probably would never bet. I remember last summer when I spent a few days in Saratoga, Andy (TLG) liked 2 horses , Valmont & a Julien Leparoux horse in a turf race in the opener. At the Siros seminar TLG said "I only like one horse all day", the horse went on to the easiest of victories at 7-1, if I remember correctly. And by the way Valmont swept by the field at 10-1 also ! Kudos !

Z

[keilan]

Anyone have the link for the Sterling / Beyer segment

[the little guy]

Serling.....no T.



http://www.youbet.com/playingtowin/

[keilan]

Thanx Bud -- sorry about the spelling :blush:

[Tom]

You must have been thinking "Steller!" as in steller performance!;)

[keilan]

Top shelf Andy -- good stuff :ThmbUp:

Here are a few guys I’d like to see on as future guests of yours, cj, drugs and PA. I don’t know what their appearance fees are but hell youbet.com is a big outfit.

[the little guy]

Top shelf Andy -- good stuff :ThmbUp:

Here are a few guys I’d like to see on as future guests of yours, cj, drugs and PA. I don’t know what their appearance fees are but hell youbet.com is a big outfit.


Believe me, I would love to use DrugS especially, but it's hard to use someone that has no professional credibility. However, maybe I could figure out an " amateurs round table " segment for Saratoga. It's at least food for thought.

My guess, however, would be that DrugS will freeze in front of the camera.

Thanks.

[aaron]

Excellent show, Andy. How about having Harvey Pack on one of the shows.Another person who would be fun to listen to is Brad Thomas.
Do these shows only feature handicappers who are affilated with the DRF ?
Continued success with the show.

[the little guy]

Thanks Aaron. Harvey's not a handicapper but maybe I can drag him on for a few minutes in Saratoga. As for Brad....I'm a huge fan and would love to have him as a guest.

[point given]

Thats what i'll be doing. The plays are forced for the stakes races where the races are near unbettable; only in p3-4 plays. At least at Siros, there are 9 races and some opportunities with cappers opinions who have a slant on something they like or see that i don't. Stakes races are more obvious and overhandicapped . Your turf pick in Keenelands last race , I watched the replay you mentioned and i didn't see much, but I included him so i wouldn't be kicking myself in the rear if he did something. However, i changed another bet and it cost me including him and taking out another in a p3 sequence. Not blaming you, my decision, but havenot noticed much upside to you or your guests picks. Rather watch it for entertainment value after the fact. Thats just me.

will you be doing any followup on your picks, bad trip horses etc. to keep the audience aprised ?

[the little guy]

Thats what i'll be doing. The plays are forced for the stakes races where the races are near unbettable; only in p3-4 plays. At least at Siros, there are 9 races and some opportunities with cappers opinions who have a slant on something they like or see that i don't. Stakes races are more obvious and overhandicapped . Your turf pick in Keenelands last race , I watched the replay you mentioned and i didn't see much, but I included him so i wouldn't be kicking myself in the rear if he did something. However, i changed another bet and it cost me including him and taking out another in a p3 sequence. Not blaming you, my decision, but havenot noticed much upside to you or your guests picks. Rather watch it for entertainment value after the fact. Thats just me.

will you be doing any followup on your picks, bad trip horses etc. to keep the audience aprised ?

I appreciate the thoughts but I'm also a little confused. Both Beyer and I made it clear we weren't thrilled with betting either stake, though I did say I was fooling around with Dominican, and the three horse box I liked in the Arkansas Derby involved a late scratch which basically killed the bet. My " turf " pick at Keeneland did not run on the turf. I appreciate that you took the time to watch the replay though I am also surprised you " didn't see much " but I guess trip handicapping is subjective. I will certainly be interested in that horse should it return in a similar type spot on the turf.

As for the specific picks, while I didn't say it on this show, I stated on the first show that the idea about the show is to share opinions that may help people think about the races. By no means do any of us declare our opinions to be better than anyone else's, but they may hopefully offer a different interpretation of the race, and perhaps one might hear something they consider valuable that was missed. If not, by all means bet who you like, as on any given day, or any given race, why should our specific opinions be better than yours?

Also, the handicapping section focusing on the Pick-3 ( the 4th - 6th at Keeneland ), while it involved specific opinions, it was also about how each of us would construct plays, as one goes about playing multi-race bets differently depending on situations and opinions. I am sorry if this was not helpful to you but I was comfortable with how it worked.

Finally, I'm confused by your final remarks, as I spent a couple minutes talking about my hidden horse from week 1 who had run back last week at Aqueduct. I certainly plan to continue to do that throughout the show as I consider all the handicapping discussions to be about trying to better our game and that includes reviewing past selections. The only thing I am reticent to do is bring up horses that won as those results speak for themselves.

Thanks again for watching and thank you for your thoughts.

[point given]

I appreciate the thoughts but I'm also a little confused. Both Beyer and I made it clear we weren't thrilled with betting either stake, though I did say I was fooling around with Dominican, and the three horse box I liked in the Arkansas Derby involved a late scratch which basically killed the bet. My " turf " pick at Keeneland did not run on the turf. I appreciate that you took the time to watch the replay though I am also surprised you " didn't see much " but I guess trip handicapping is subjective. I will certainly be interested in that horse should it return in a similar type spot on the turf.

As for the specific picks, while I didn't say it on this show, I stated on the first show that the idea about the show is to share opinions that may help people think about the races. By no means do any of us declare our opinions to be better than anyone else's, but they may hopefully offer a different interpretation of the race, and perhaps one might hear something they consider valuable that was missed. If not, by all means bet who you like, as on any given day, or any given race, why should our specific opinions be better than yours?

Also, the handicapping section focusing on the Pick-3 ( the 4th - 6th at Keeneland ), while it involved specific opinions, it was also about how each of us would construct plays, as one goes about playing multi-race bets differently depending on situations and opinions. I am sorry if this was not helpful to you but I was comfortable with how it worked.

Finally, I'm confused by your final remarks, as I spent a couple minutes talking about my hidden horse from week 1 who had run back last week at Aqueduct. I certainly plan to continue to do that throughout the show as I consider all the handicapping discussions to be about trying to better our game and that includes reviewing past selections. The only thing I am reticent to do is bring up horses that won as those results speak for themselves.

Thanks again for watching and thank you for your thoughts.

I must have gotten the turf pick wrong, as I thought you said "palmilla", who did have a trouble line in his last race at GP but it was minor, to me. Who was the horse who was scratched that you liked ?

your mention of Dominican , I thought i remembered was to use under SS or GH, don't remember on top. ??

You are correct on your hidden horse redux, my bad, and he was definitley hidden !

BTW - FYI - On MOTO - I can honestly say that I coined the term at the Meadowlands simulcast room many moons ago. Apparently it got to Ernie D. who used it in his NYT interview. FYI - me and my buddy constantly watched this guy tell everyone , after the race, why the horse won , or called the winner at the wire. I turned to him and said, he's a moto, and the term was coined, I was shocked to see it in the NYT. have to put it in wikipedia .
But then again, everything in NY is borrowed from somewhere else, except those hidden runners picks !

BTW2 - You have made your point on watching tape and finding bad trip horses though. This is something I have been remiss in doing and is a hole in my game. Plan to do more of it.

[the little guy]

No, For You Reppo, who was part of my exacta box in the Arkansas Derby, was scratched. Palmillo ran, but the race was taken off the turf, so at least I didn't consider the horse ( or race ) at that point. They can tell me polytrack is a lot of things, and certainly some of the races are run like turf races, but if I like a horse for the turf I don't bet it on any other surface. I will make that clear in the future on the show.

Yes, I did not say to play Dominican on top, and apologize if I was deceptive. I was more pointing out that he was at least mentioned as part of my play ( hey, I gotta try to grasp on to something! ).

I learned MOTO years ago as it was used around " the sick room " at Aqueduct at least in the 70s. If you are the originator of that great phrase you should be installed in the Horseplayers Hall of Fame as it is one of the all-time great " words ".

Thanks again.

[bigmack]

I stated on the first show that the idea about the show is to share opinions that may help people think about the races.
It's a quagmire in a way to not only to be boxed into analysis of the major stakes, which oftentimes offer little in the way of betting ops, but also to point out horses to watch for that 99.9% of the viewers won't remember or track how they performed in their next race.

The audience you're speaking to is comprised of two camps - One, that has little idea of what you're talking about and the other, seasoned players that wouldn't play a selection if it wasn't generated by their own check list in a million years.

In my minds eye, the best offering of what you can do with the show is to educate the less experienced player of those things that they might not have learned. The thugs, hooligans & ruffians you rub elbows with on boards like this are not, IMO, the demographic you should be addressing.

I didn't agree with your analysis of Solarana and that being aside it's my contention that viewers would come away from the show with more info if you presented the Hidden Horse segment in a retrospective view. Again, very few folk are going to track a horse that you felt had a tumultuous trip. If they saw one and saw their winning performance on the next race, they'd "get it" in a more demonstrative fashion.

[the little guy]

In my minds eye, the best offering of what you can do with the show is to educate the less experienced player of those things that they might not have learned. The thugs, hooligans & ruffians you rub elbows with on boards like this are not, IMO, the demographic you should be addressing.

I didn't agree with your analysis of Solarana and that being aside it's my contention that viewers would come away from the show with more info if you presented the Hidden Horse segment in a retrospective view. Again, very few folk are going to track a horse that you felt had a tumultuous trip. If they saw one and saw their winning performance on the next race, they'd "get it" in a more demonstrative fashion.


I appreciate all your thoughts ( and highlighted the one's I wanted to address ) and can't argue with anything you said. I feel like the show, and the Siro's shows as well, are sort of like the approach some high schools use in foreign language classes, you speak the foreign tongue in some respects and hope that people that don't necessarily understand will be motivated to learn. I'm not certain this is the optimal approach, and will listen to any thoughts, but I don't want to talk down to people and feel that people smart enough to want to learn this game will learn to follow along. Or at least I hope so.

I have thought about what you said in the final paragraph, and I don't disagree with your principal concept, but I am afraid it will appear as redboarding. However, I will keep it in mind and perhaps find a way to at least add it as part of the segment in the future. I actually like that you don't agree with my take on Solarana, as I like the subjective nature of trip handicapping, and don't think there is any strong stance necessarily that one of us is right and the other wrong. In some ways I want to try and point this out. I am hoping I can use that segment to show trips that people might want to look for and try to steer them away from the obvious standard stuff that doesn't really help.

I honestly appreciate everyone's thoughts here. I don't expect that I have a core audience here but those that watch can definitely offer me constructive ideas. It's always going to be a work in progress.

[bigmack]

The initial formulation of a broadcast offering needs to be well defined. From my experience, far too many times the production side of the equation gets 95% thought and "why should people watch this" is given 5%. I've seen it time and time again. Be the audience and ask yourself the same question.

You're cleaver. Beyer's cleaver. Other guests might be cleaver, but it might not be enough reason for the show.

You could accomplish some good things with this op and I know that's your hope.

I would talk less to the "I knew thats" and more to the "I didn't know thats"

All the Best

[point given]

The initial formulation of a broadcast offering needs to be well defined. From my experience, far too many times the production side of the equation gets 95% thought and "why should people watch this" is given 5%. I've seen it time and time again. Be the audience and ask yourself the same question.

You're cleaver. Beyer's cleaver. Other guests might be cleaver, but it might not be enough reason for the show.

You could accomplish some good things with this op and I know that's your hope.

I would talk less to the "I knew thats" and more to the "I didn't know thats"

All the Best

Who do you think the audience is for this show ? Who is being targeted as the potential audience for it ? You've got to get a sense of the audience demographics, (which in this case will tend to change). When I would go to a conference, sometimes the speaker would try to get a sense of the audience and would tailor his presentation to the audience response to his questions of them. In this case, one could only go by stats, Is there any way to track the hits ? and compare to other hits at drf ? Could there be a popup window added with a link to a short survey or email address to see what the audience thinks or wants ? I guess this and other online forums at this time is the only feedback available, but is it on track, compared to other less motivated horse players.

[point given]

No, For You Reppo, who was part of my exacta box in the Arkansas Derby, was scratched. Palmillo ran, but the race was taken off the turf, so at least I didn't consider the horse ( or race ) at that point. They can tell me polytrack is a lot of things, and certainly some of the races are run like turf races, but if I like a horse for the turf I don't bet it on any other surface. I will make that clear in the future on the show.

Yes, I did not say to play Dominican on top, and apologize if I was deceptive. I was more pointing out that he was at least mentioned as part of my play ( hey, I gotta try to grasp on to something! ).

I learned MOTO years ago as it was used around " the sick room " at Aqueduct at least in the 70s. If you are the originator of that great phrase you should be installed in the Horseplayers Hall of Fame as it is one of the all-time great " words ".

Thanks again.

I see , on the turf race. I also recalculated for the poly, as the turf course and the poly course were playing diametrically opposed in running styles. Not always the case, as some will blindly play turfers on poly at keeneland now. Still think Pamilla is a dog though.

Dominican - grasp away ! pace analysis on th show would of been helpful on this one though. I simply thought Teufels on the lead and SS and GH chase him down. Didnot expect them to be so close up, but they had no choice, my bad on that .

Moto, I stand corrected, here i thought I was a genius ! Should have known better, as many have pointed out to me in the past.

[Indulto]

tlg,
I enjoyed your second show and you are to be credited for pointing out Dominican as a legitimate contender. Maybe you should use him as an example on a subsequent show as to how a savvy bettor would have profited from the value in using him over the favored Street Sense in exotics, given his proven ability to handle polytrak in currently uncertain times. Alas, I was not among that group. Possibly PG was confused by the title of the show, “Playing To Win.”

Perhaps your concept should be expanded to “Playing To Win BIG.” Instead of just discussing your “picks,” you and your guest could construct a sample trifecta or superfecta ticket (or both) combining both your preferences. This would provide the viewers with a model of how to play exotics using their own selections.

Youbet should like this since it will undoubtedly spur extended participation by existing account-holders. For those who deserve the limelight, but don’t yet have “credibility,” you could make a standing offer to have as your next guest(s), any Youbet customer(s) who hit that exotic for BIG bucks without using your picks. :D

I also want to give both you and Youbet credit for not restricting the show to Youbet customers. I will now consider doing business with them if PTC does not come through before I am too decrepit to get to the track. ;)

[WJ47]

I finally got to watch the latest 2 handicapping shows and they were excellent! I wish I watched the show before I wagered on Dreaming of Anna today without seeing the PPs! My internet connection was down & too slow to watch videos due to Roadrunner cable migrating their systems all week, so I finally was able to watch them, after the Oaks!

The Kentucky Derby show from today was great. I just kept hoping that either Andy would offer some encouragement on Teuflesberg, but that didn't happen. :) I'm still going to bet him to win and place, but only a little. I'm a full time adult college student and I haven't had too much time with all of the final exams/term papers to research the derby field. I'm glad for the detailed analysis from the two Andy's so I have some decent horses to toss into my Derby 5 horse exacta box.

It was a great show to really get you in the mood for the Derby! I really enjoyed Andy Beyer's analysis of Cowtown Cat. :lol: I loved the discussion on who might finish last in the Derby.

[the little guy]

Thanks.

Beyer's story about betting Western Playboy for last was great.

[WJ47]

Thanks.

Beyer's story about betting Western Playboy for last was great.

That was the most hilarious story I've heard in a long time! :lol: I almost fell off my office chair laughing!