That didn't take long....

[Tom]

Chamver of Commerce - read: Big Busniness - working secretly with Ted Kennedy to write an amnesty bill that would allow ALL illegals to stay here.

Only special stake holders are allowed to meet withth e big head - no citizens, so guess that tells you what the dem think about the people. Not even two months already they have SOLDOUT.

Remember the LAST amnesty progeram dems passed - total disastor that paved the way to today's mess.


I guess it is time to bring the troops home, because a nation run by dems is not worth fighting for.

Sec, your guys are getting ready to abort America. Partial birth.

[OTM Al]

Of course we should remember that first major amnesty over illegal immegrants in the Massachusetts area. One of the first things those people did was steal from the real Americans. Several cases of murder occured as well in later days and the Americans often tried to use those illegals to their own benefit over rival groups. Guess it all turned out ok though. Everybody's read about them in the history books. Even got themselves a holiday.....

[JustRalph]

Of course we should remember that first major amnesty over illegal immegrants in the Massachusetts area. One of the first things those people did was steal from the real Americans. Several cases of murder occured as well in later days and the Americans often tried to use those illegals to their own benefit over rival groups. Guess it all turned out ok though. Everybody's read about them in the history books. Even got themselves a holiday.....

give me a break...............

[OTM Al]

No, I won't. Everything in that statement is true. Something else I know is true is that the anti-immigrant rhetoric being spewed today is the same language the Ku Klux Klan used in the 1920s to pump their membership to all time highs. The target then? Irish and Italian immigrants. They sure ruined our economy. If illegal immigration is so bad why aren't we building a wall between us and Canada too? Good number of illegals come from there as well. I'm just saying its time to cut the crap and call this what it is. You afraid the little brown man is going to despoil all the white women then just say it. This is America and we are allowed to express our opinions.

[chickenhead]

you don't think there is any difference between legal and illegal immigration Al?

you don't think a country should control the number of immigrants it takes in?

you don't think a country should have any standards as to who it takes in?

can you name me another 1st world country that chooses to have uncontrolled immigration?

I find your point of view baffling.

[Tom]

Al, your allegations are empty - I WELCOME legal immigration.

I also advocate a closed border with Canada. And passports.

You think it fair to suddenly add 20+ million people to start collectin SS benefits after contributing noting? You think it a good idea to grant citizenship to people with no effective background checks?

How is this fair to those who are trying come here legally? Why should I pay for these people who come here illegally?

You racist allegatis are a pretty lame argument and show a total uderstanding of the situation. A typical liberal reply when they have no facts to back up anything.

Frankly, coming from you, a poster I normally respect, this is very much unlike your usual intelligent commentary.

We should reward those who have no respect for our laws?????
Should we also show compassion to those who rob liquor stores if they are poor? Those who rob grocery stores is they need to feed thier kids?

[OTM Al]

I think they are going to come whether we call it legal or illegal. They always have. The thing that makes them illegal is that they weren't able to make it into some arbitarily set quota and didn't have the money to grease their way around the rules. Ask the Chinese about American immigration quotas. No one chooses uncontrolled immigration, but everyone that is a so called 1st world country these days is facing it.

What I am talking about here is the growing villification of these people. To hear some people speak, they are the cause of the vast majority of crime. They are the cause of coming econimc collapse. We can blame them for whatever because they can't defend themselves. Hell, they aren't even human. The fact is that they are here and we will waste more effort and resources trying to run them out that trying to assimilate them. I'd much rather have them legalized and paying taxes and paying into Social Security and such than be wasting tax dollars by building walls.

[chickenhead]

you are an economist? U of Chicago?

You are basically saying that borders should no longer exist, and have no meaning. I we told the world "everyone in the pool", if we made immigration frictionless, we would very quickly become a third world country, and stay that way. Or maybe another question for you would be:

At what number do you think it would be a problem, if not 10-20 million? 50 million? 100 million? How many, in your opinion, is too many?

[chickenhead]

Al proffers up "Ask the Chinese about American Immigration quotas"

Do you think the Chinese would have any problem offering up 100 million immigrants? They would have no problem at all. Neither would India. Do you have any doubt that they would, if we removed our quotas completely?

It is impossible to assimilate those sorts of numbers.

I agree with you, let's fix the quotas. Let's have a rational immigration policy. But I don't think people who advocate what you advocate realise how absolutely radical your position is.

[OTM Al]

Tom, at least your position on this matter is consistent. I don't agree, but you are certainly entitled to your opinions as am I. I honestly do feel much of this rhetoric is strictly racist. Doesn't mean I'm calling you one, but I would be careful of who you are aligning yourself with on this one.

Guess I blew up at it because out my window yesterday I got to hear the protests against the dumbasses of the NYU College Republican Club who had decided to have a "Find the Illegal Immigrant" game. The university administration, much to their credit, allowed this event to go forward, saying all voices should be heard here. I'm not sure what this game consisted of but I do know these geniuses had signs showing running Mexicans on them which seems to be the only element of illegal immigration anyone seems to focus on. Not illegal Canadians, Australians or Irish (I've known people of those later groups btw). I guess white people are fine to come here, but definitely not brown. They ruin real estate values you know....

Funniest part about the whole thing was there was some idiot Chinese kid there to play the game talking about how proud he was his parents were legal, though he sure had no idea what to say when someone asked him about the Chinese Exclusion Act which sure made it so his greatgrandparents would not have been welcomed here legally. Had to love the first line in the Daily News story about them...."Maybe they should have stuck to beer pong."

I do think we should be concerned about illegal immigration. Just don't think the solution is building an armed fortress. I think we should also be concerned with the tone of the rhetoric that is going on about it and what the real agendas are.

[Tom]

I would guess the real culprits in this whole mess are white people - employers who put thier damned dollar ahead of our security and economy.
I firmly beleive any business couaght hiring illegals shouldlead to forfeture fo the assests, jail for the owners/board memebers, CEO, whatever.

As far a villification goes, I think the marches of illegals telling us what they were going to do justifies it. If they want war, I am willing to give it to them. I advoxcate a full real war with mexico - a far greater threat than Iraq. And I am not kidding. We need regime change and btw, they gots oil, too! :D

[JustRalph]

Al, you really think I am racist huh? Interesting.

Let me just say that you are mixing races on this issue and it does mean something. You can't speak about other nations and be talking about the same problem. The fact that we share a border with Mexico makes it completely different.

Tom stole much of my thunder on this issue. He is right.

30 thousand Americans are killed in the U.S. by illegal aliens each year. These deaths range from Traffic incidents to Drug Murders. Over 80 percent of these individuals who make bond never return for court.

If we categorized them as an invading force that killed 30k Americans each year, it would make the Iraq war numbers look like baby shit. And people scream about about the Iraq numbers. I just don't see that big a difference in the two types of deaths. They are just as dead as those killed in Iraq.

I heard a guy on a radio show the other day. He is from Denmark. He is 4 years into a 7-8 year process of becoming a citizen the legal way. He says he has spent over 25k to become legal so far. Amnesty is just crazy. It betrays every person who has obeyed the law over the last 40 years.

Btw, don't confuse "Racism" and equal protection and treatment under the law. One group equals "all groups" Stopping the Amnesty program for Mexicans, stops it for all. The equal protection argument is part of the constitution. If Mexican illegals are given amnesty, then every person already on the soil will have to be included............. this isn't just about Mexicans and certain races. It is about every race. You open the door, you open it to all............and the common border gives the Mexican immigrant an advantage over others. But the others will be included. They have to be. Either by the original program or court actions after.

[OTM Al]

Ralph, just as with Tom, I'm not calling you a racist. I don't know you so any judgement like that by me would be stupid to say the least. I am however standing by my statement that many of those in this debate on the anti-illegal side are.

Just two comments about what you have said. 30,000 American deaths a year? Not sure I buy that, but would be willing to read your source.

Second, the Danish guy has spent 25K to become a citizen? He still has 4 years to go? Last time I checked there is no reason to be spending that kind of money unless you are hiring lawyers to help you circumvent certain parts of the process. Something sounds very wrong here. Had a friend who was Australian that wanted to get a green card and had been in contact with a lawyer that was only going to jack him 5k to get him to the head of the line. Of course you can enter the lottery for what I am sure is a minimal filing fee and just hope you don't get ripped off.

[OTM Al]

Just FYI I was having a look at the INS site to see just what it costs to get oneself naturalized. Best I can figure it costs about $800 if you follow all the rules and don't need any exceptions. That's about $400 to get permanent resident status and $400 more for naturalization about 5 years later. You can pay a whole lot more if you want to get exceptions for things such as leaving the country for extended times and such. Of course the forms look a bit complicated, so I'm sure hiring a lawyer to help out isn't a bad idea for these folks so might as well throw a couple more grand on the pile. All and all not that much, at least to a middle class white guy, though it may be a bit more dear for someone trying to get out of some 3rd world piss hole. Interesting stuff.

[Tom]

So the question now becomes, with all these forms, lawyers, yadda yadda yadda, and TWO amnesty programs under our belts, why would ANYONE bother to go through channels anymore - why not just walk over and by-pass all that?

The big lie ( well, one of the big lies) Mr Bush keeps telling us is that we need a guest worker program. Hey, Georgie - we got one - and legal ways to come here, too. Problem is, the morons running this country (YOU, Georgie, you sick twisted freak) are too stupid to run the programs.


BTW, are the dems willing to ensure ALL of the 20+ million new citizens will make minimum wage, no exceptions? Of course not! The dems, in spite of all thier whinning, are BOUGHT and PAID for and in the pockets of big business - as deep as the repubs are.

The Chamber of Commerce is writing this bill, with Teddy.

Stick a fork in us, we are done.
High time for a civil war of our own - this time, no prisoners.:mad:

[46zilzal]

Stick a fork in us, we are done.
High time for a civil war of our own - this time, no prisoners.
The answer to everything is violence in all your posts. Wonderful, that's just what we don't need.

[JustRalph]

Al, the 30k number is derived from several sources. But I won't ask you to chase it down. Let's go with the number provided by Congressman King of Iowa. Representative Steve King 5th Congressional District of Iowa.

He did his own checking and found more than 4k killed every year by Illegal Aliens. Predominately Mexican illegals. He did not look into prison records and he didn't use accounts that were generated by Hospitals and he did not extrapolate data based on population predictions etc. The other groups say that 16 million illegals are in the U.S. and that one out of every 18 is involved in the death of an American citizen every year. But for just plain discussion let's stick with the Congressman's numbers. His are direct from newspaper accounts and other sources that provide "direct links" to the deaths. No guessing etc. I am sure the number is probably somewhere between the two. But lets use the low end from the Congressman. Just for discussion.

So, four thousand Americans are killed by illegals each year and these are cases where the illegal is directly involved in the death of an American citizen. Roughly 12 a day. Incidentally when he expanded his criteria to Rapes he found an equal amount involved in the rape of an American citizen every day. This number is just as scary if you ask me.

So let's just use the Congressman's numbers. This is more people than were killed in Iraq since the war started. In fact over 21 Thousand since 9-11. Almost 7 times more people killed than were killed on 9-11. But nobody seems to care.

Did you know that John Lee Malvo was an Illegal Alien? Look that name up.

These are not population density deaths. The highway patrol likes to talk about, more cars, more deaths. If you put more people on the roads, more people are going to die. But these aren't those kind of deaths. These are directly related to someone being here that shouldn't be. And in most cases these deaths would not have occurred had the illegal not been here. If you are outraged about Deaths in Iraq, you should be outraged even more by the wholly preventable deaths of Lawful American Citizens in the U.S. Who were doing nothing more than persuing their personal American Dreams, remember that ? Something about Safety.....pursuit of happiness........ring a bell?

This problem is nothing more than a covert invasion. I wouldn't care if it were Mexicans or the Polish. I would feel the same way about it. It has to do with conduct and behavior by the offenders. Not the color of their skin.

Check out this page: http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/text/crimevictims.html

Btw, When you look at the pictures on the page above..........think to yourself, are they any less dead or tragic than soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan? These weren't people who signed up to fight an enemy or put themselves in harms way. Our government let them down. Sometimes multiple times. And nobody gives a damn............... I dont' see marching in the streets on this issue? Look at those pictures. You don't see Nightline running these pictures every year..............do you?

[JustRalph]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/4573480.html


"One of every four births at public hospitals in Houston, Dallas and Fort Worth are to illegal immigrant mothers, officials estimate. The mothers' obstetrics costs are covered through a special Medicaid program. As U.S. citizens, the babies qualify for Medicaid or CHIPS coverage. "

"In 2005, Harris County officials estimate, the district treated 57,072 illegal immigrants — about 20 percent of all patients. The total cost for treating illegal immigrants was $128 million, but the hospital district received only $28 million in reimbursements from the federal and state governments. The patients paid about $3 million."

Do the math here? Do you think your city or county could absorb this burden without raising taxes or stealing from peter to pay paul? Remember, you're Peter.........the numbers don't lie. They pay 3% of what they cost in medical care. 3 bucks on every hundred. The tax payers pay the rest............you might as well adopt them.............

[OTM Al]

I found the basis or at least an outgrowth of it here on King's comments. Its on his official website

http://www.house.gov/apps/list/speech/ia05_king/sp_20060503_stats.html

Interesting fellow. Extremely right wing and claims to be popular with his constituants. Well, that is the way it should be. Hopefully he is representing the wishes of these people well. I'm seeing several Iowans (or Iowegians as people from Minnesota like to call them) who aren't too happy with him.

It appears he has a great love for that wall to keep out Mexicans. He is renowned for his model wall he showed durning a speach on the house floor where he also proposed that they put an electrical wire on it that would disaude people from climbing it. He said it worked well with livestock...

I wanted to post some stuff on him, but he seems to be very polarizing. He is either lauded by like thinking people or despised by his opponents. Nothing I can find seems to have balanced reporting so I'm not feeding the fires of either side by posting something biased.

So I am left with my own opinion on his statements and writings. I have to say that his extrapolations are statistical crap. I try to say that in a factual and neutral way, but to be honest, guys like this scare me. I'm not naive. I know there is crime in the illegal community. They are generally poor and crime is prevelant in poor communites, legal or illegal. After reading his own statements on his own website I have no doubt in my mind that this guy hates Mexicans. He likes to use the specter of 8 little girls getting raped every day by these people (that sure sounds familiar) He doesn't even seem to care much for legal ones, though he doesn't come out and say it, he did sue over voting info printed in Spanish (Iowa has a English as official language law)

Here is the story I was looking for earlier about those taking advantage of anti-immigrant feelings. Provided by Fox of all news orgs...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,251427,00.html

As I said before, I got no problem with you believing what you do. I do not disagree that illegal immigration is a problem here. Just be careful who you end up associating with.

[JustRalph]

I notice you don't cite any rebuttal to the numbers. Try these:

http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back704.html

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.


• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the bloody 18th Street Gang in California is illegal (estimated membership: 20,000); police officers say the proportion is undoubtedly much greater. The gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complicated drug distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and is responsible for an assault or robbery every day in Los Angeles County. The gang has dramatically expanded its numbers over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, a vast proportion illegal, from Central America and Mexico.


• The leadership of the Columbia Li’l Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former Assistant U.S. Attorney Luis Li. Frank "Pancho Villa" Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.

I won't argue this with you anymore. You downplay the problem. I don't.

Btw, if you live in So.Cal you are sharing the freeway with the guys above. I used to live there, my wife worked there and I am glad I got out of there.

Btw, I think the Congressman has got it all wrong. Land Mines would be much cheaper. But I would gladly help him pull the switch on the breaker for the electric wire................

[Tom]

If these "poor people" offer so much to our country, why is they left thier own country a miseable POS 4th rate nation that has never amounted to anything?

[Tom]

40 illegal aliens were discovered in an empty Wal Mart trailer parked in Brownsville. The truck driver was nowhere to be found. A Wal Mart spokesperson said the company was very upset with this situation – they insist they only ordered 30.

[JustRalph]

Just two comments about what you have said. 30,000 American deaths a year? Not sure I buy that, but would be willing to read your source.

I had a family emergency that required some travel and didn't get to respond as I wanted. So here are some informational pages for you.

I searched for some good numbers and found wild variations. It appears that this group has done some pretty good work and takes out some of the crap. Check out their numbers.........and information.

Exclusive: Illegal Aliens Kill More Americans Than Iraq War
The Editors
Author: The Editors
Source: The Family Security Foundation, Inc.
Date: February 16, 2007

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=737771

Illegal Alien Sex Fiends
By Andy Selepak
Author: Andy Selepak
Source: The Family Security Foundation, Inc
Date: January 16, 2007

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/challenges.php?id=605084

Exclusive: Illegal Aliens Are Nation’s Most Lethal Drivers
The Editors
Author: The Editors
Source: The Family Security Foundation, Inc.
Date: December 14, 2006

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=494798

Exclusive: Illegal Aliens Are Nation’s Most Lethal Drivers – Part II
The Editors
Author: The Editors
Source: The Family Security Foundation, Inc.
Date: December 15, 2006

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=496631

Exclusive: Government Not Tracking Illegal Alien Crime Even As It Spirals Up
The Editors
Author: The Editors
Source: The Family Security Foundation, Inc.
Date: December 12, 2006

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=486375

Exclusive: Illegal Alien Criminal Activity Will Shock You
The Editors
Author: The Editors
Source: The Family Security Foundation, Inc.
Date: December 11, 2006

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/challenges.php?id=479818

Exclusive: For Illegal Aliens, Crime Pays – and So Do We
The Editors
Author: The Editors
Source: The Family Security Foundation, Inc.
Date: December 5, 2006

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=464611

[OTM Al]

Hope all is well with the family. I read through the first article. All are from the same source, so after a perusal of their web site, I think it is representative of the methods and ideology. Fortunately they do link to a GAO report, which is the sort of source info I would prefer to look at. I have to say again that the website you give is not a good source. I will make a couple points to explain why I would say that.

1) The title of the piece is completely misleading Yes, there are more illegals in prison for homicide than troops that have died in the Iraq war. However, the Iraq war has been going for about 4 years. Get back to me when it reaches the 10-20 year mark (which I would assume would be average prison term for homicide) and we'll check the numbers then. Secondly the title seems to imply that every murder committed by illegals was against US Citizens. I would seriously doubt this. People tend to commit the majority of crimes within their own socio-economic group so I would guess that alot of these crimes are against other illegals. The GAO report did not break this out, so it cannot be the basis for such a statement.

2) In paragraph 5 the author extrapolates the magnitude of crime committed by illegals from the GAO numbers. He obviously did not actually read the report as the report said specifically not to do that. That such an extrapolation is invalid.

3) One should expect percentage wise more illegals are in prison than citizens. This only makes sense because by definition they have committed an illegal act and are subject to prosecution and incarceration. A full 68% of illegals in federal prison are there for being illegal.

To back any arguement that illegals are any more criminal than US citizens, I would like to see a side by side comapison of the following:

Give me the number of people who are illegal and number of US citizens who are in a comparable economic class. Give me the number from each group that have committed specific crimes. Compare percentages. If it comes out that the illegals are committing more per capita crime, then your arguement is absolutely correct, but unfortunately all I'm seeing on the subject is bad statistics, sensationalism, and no basis for comparison.

We could take these exact same sorts of arguements and change out illegal aliens for cars, plug in the appropriate numbers and say cars kill more Americans than the Iraq war as well. Perhaps we should deport them as well?

I want to reiterate that I'm not at all disputing your right to hold your opinion or the fact that there is problems with illegal immigration. What I don't like is bad statistics and biased, rhetoric filled reporting, and I'm afraid that's what this is.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM AL:

I will give you my logic why illegal immigrants may have propensity to commit crimes. First, by coming to the country illegally they have committed a crime. They committed a crime, according to most supporters of illegal migration, to better their lives.

So it is reasonable to conclude they have the propensity to commit some other type of crime, in order to, better their lives while dwelling here illegally. These illegal immigrants are motivated by their wants and are willing to commit crimes to satisfy their need for betterment as proved by their criminal behavior entering the country illegally.

Are these the type of people we want here? People that are willing to break the laws to better their lives?

[Steve 'StatMan']

...Are these the type of people we want here? People that are willing to break the laws to better their lives?

Good points, SMTW. Lots of people break the law to make their lives better - and we want those people punished and even sent to prison. Should hold no less a standard to those coming here illegally. I'm sure Al Capone broke the law to make his life better. I don't recall if he was born in the U.S. or not, but that's not the point - we don't get to break laws just to make our lives better.

[OTM Al]

Ok Show Me, your first statement is absolutely true. By the laws of our country, a crime was committed when they came here. Its your second statement that I am not so sure of. Basically, you are stating that illegally immigrating is a "gateway crime". Think the arguement that marajuana is a gateway drug leading to the use of stronger drugs. So you argue that because they were willing to commit one crime, then they are willing/going to commit more. Some will, of that there is no doubt, but the labelling of the whole group as a criminal element is just as silly as saying all blacks are criminals because of high crime rates among groups of blacks.

They are absolutely motivated by their wants. So are you and I. This is the basis of the entire study of Economics btw.

Are these the types of people we want here? No, I don't want criminals here. Of course we've let plenty in legally in the past. Nazi scientists were slipped in after the war. Those guys that set the foundations for putting men on the moon were the same ones responsible for building and lobbing V1 and V2 rockets at civilian populations. Remember when we took all of Castro's prison cases back in the 70s? I think both of those sets of legal immigrants were far worse than the vast majority of the people we are talking about here. No, what I want is people that want to be here, that are willing to work hard and to contribute to their community and their country. I believe that the majority of these illgal immigrants fit this category.

What we need is reform of our immigration laws. No I'm not advocating free passage for anyone that wants it. I think our current system is too open to corruption and allows lawyers and immigartion agencies to take advantage of these people who are trying to do things the right way. I think we should relax some of our restrictions on some of the countries. I think we need to get these people on the tax rolls much more quickly. I think the building of a wall between us and Mexico has far more to do with racism than an actual solution to a real problem.

By the way if you go back to my very first post on the subject, the group I was refering to is the Pilgrims. They settled illegally when they founded the Plymouth colony. Their charter was for the Hudson Valley region I believe, but they were willing to break the law to better their lives. Were they wrong to do so? Of course I'm not sure the natives really wanted them either though.....

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM AL

Could you tell me the specific law that made the Plymouth colonist illegal immigrants?

Of course most people are motivated by economic gain. Does that make it right to break any law to better your economic position?

Nothing about gateway crimes. These illegal immigrants have shown their willingness to commit crimes to better their life. BTW how do you think they earned $10,000. in U.S. dollars to pay the coyotes to smuggle the illegal in? Perhaps the illegal agreed to act as a mule to smuggle in a prohibited illegal item?

But I am sure it is okay, because they are breaking the law to better their lives.

This mentality, I still can better my life, can be applied by them while they are illegally present in the country to commit further criminal acts.

[Tom]

By the way if you go back to my very first post on the subject, the group I was refering to is the Pilgrims. They settled illegally when they founded the Plymouth colony. Their charter was for the Hudson Valley region I believe, but they were willing to break the law to better their lives. Were they wrong to do so? Of course I'm not sure the natives really wanted them either though.....

So we should learn from the American Indians and protect our borders. ;)

[Show Me the Wire]

So we should learn from the American Indians and protect our borders. ;)
:lol:

[Show Me the Wire]

I have an economic solution. It is often said we need these illegal workers to fill jobs that no native born U.S. citizen will do. I guess native born U.S. citizens no longer want to participate in the building trades, trucking, etc.. but I digress.

If it is a supply problem, the employer's should be willing to pay more for the short supply of workers (basic economics). So employers should be allowed to freely hire foreign nationals through a guest worker program, with the proviso the employer must pay the guest worker $2.00 more than the current min. wage.

Under this economic plan everyone would benefit. The illegal would no longer be illegal and can better his life legally, the employer would fill difficult to fill jobs, and the native U.S. citizens will benefit as the menial jobs they do not want to do will be performed.

[OTM Al]

It is the irony of the whole situation isn't it Tom. Here's the new boss, same as the old boss as the song goes....

Here's a quick summary about the Pilgrims. Paragraph 4 notes the fact that they weren't where they were supposed to be. Amnesty of course was given later when they proved to be a viable colony

http://www.mayflowerfamilies.com/colonial_life/pilgrims.htm

SMTW, these are the kind of things we should be talking about. Solutions, not monetary black holes like building a wall. Probably would never fly of course...

[Tom]

Gotta disagree - build the wall, THEN we talk.
As long as we allow to come here easily, they will come.
They have NO RIGHT to steal our resources. I am dead serious about land mines, guard dos, and snipers. If violating one's borders in not a reason to shoot to kill, I've never heard of one.
Try sneaking into N Korea. China.

[OTM Al]

I don't want to live in a place like China or North Korea.

I've had my say on this and as all things should be we can continue to disagree in a civil manner. Maybe I think about this a bit because I see her every day and it still means something to me.

Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

[ljb]

Most here are overlooking a fact that has been spun by the corporate powers in America. They say "jobs Americans wouldn't do" when what they mean is "Wages Americans wouldn't work for".

[Tom]

I have no problem paying $5 for lettuce.
BTW, did the Congress from Heaven extend the min wage to all workers, including meat packing industries, farm workers, etc.

If those jobs go unfilled, the market will correct for it. Or we will learn to do without.
You can't blame this problem on business alone - it would not be possible if the governement - and the libs are worse offenders tha the repubs - did not endorese it and facilitate it.

[JustRalph]

OTM, I get the feeling that no matter the information provided, you would find a problem with it. No big deal. You have your opine, I have mine.

I would like to point out something you wrote:

Give me the number of people who are illegal and number of US citizens who are in a comparable economic class. Give me the number from each group that have committed specific crimes. Compare percentages. If it comes out that the illegals are committing more per capita crime, then your arguement is absolutely correct, but unfortunately all I'm seeing on the subject is bad statistics, sensationalism, and no basis for comparison.

If you use your statement above you would find that Illeg. Aliens of Mexican/Hispanic descent have been arrested 4.8 times on average. If you use the conviction rate alone, you skew the numbers. Because they are rarely convicted because 80 percent plus don't show for court. But if you go by straight arrest rates (which is very different than "crimes committed" btw) then you make my case for me. These numbers can be found from Uniform Crime Reports tallied by the FBI. I won't post them, you would find something wrong with them. I will tell you that they are not the greatest numbers to use, but they are the best we have.

You have to be careful when you apply a formula like the one you suggest. Economic class can be misleading. And it can make the numbers out of whack big time. Not using it can make it even worse. Apply your own rules to Black Males from 1968 to 1991 without an economic class assigned, and black males are responsible for over 38 percent of "all violent crime" whilst during this time they made up only 5-6 percent of the population. Throw in an economic class designation and the number skyrockets due to black on black crime.

You see, we can argue about numbers all day long. Arrest reports in my experience are the most accurate predictor of what is really going on. Police contact is very telling. 90 plus percent of all Amerian Citizens are not contacted by the police in any given day. Arrests tell more than conviction rates. You having contact with Police on a regular basis (and more importantly getting arrested) makes an incredible statement about you and the community in which you reside. When I say community I am not referring to neighborhoods, I am referring to your social group and who you hang around with. Regardless of economic status. There are many many poor people who go through life without ever getting arrested. They may have casual contact (non adversarial contact) but they don't get arrested. It is very telling. I won't bore you anymore. I know that you don't care what I think. I won't drag this out anymore.

[Show Me the Wire]

OTM Al:

You say my idea will probably not be accepted. Why? Because it is like ljb theorized, there is no shortage of native U.S. citizen workers, but corporate greed. It is big business enslaving foreign nationals.


Illegal immigration is wrong and harmful on so many levels. It encourages people to break laws for economic gain and robs them of their dignity. They are nothing but an indentured slave class working for poverty level pay. Yet the liberals justify it. This is why I do not understand liberal logic.

As I posted earlier do we really want non-citizens in this country that have the propensity to break laws for economic gain? Do we want to create and maintain an indentured slave class, to satisfy big business?

Allowing this underground class of people we are creating a caste system in which these people are being robbed of their inherent dignity. Nothing good can come from oppression of a hidden populace, a populace created solely to accrue economic benefits for big business.

It will take a long time to sort out this sordid mess, so in the mean time, I agree with Tom. We need to physically take control of the borders and assess the idea of an indentured sub-class.