Quick questions for you database geeks

[Marc At DRF]

And when I use the term "geeks", I of course use it with the utmost respect! :)

We're planning on making the Moss Pace Figures available in a database format. It occurred to me that it's a little scary having someone like yours truly overseeing that product launch, given I'm neither a pace fig expert nor have I ever personally databased a feed in my life.

We're doing reasonably well with our text chart datafeed sales, and we've gotten enough feedback on how to offer some improvements (and don't freak out, we won't change them without telling you; we may just offer a separate feed of the same stuff), so we're somewhat comfortable on the development side.

My question is, if you actually like these pace figures, will you have any interest in buying a database feed of them? I mean, do any of you actually database pace figs currently? Is this a product that we really need to offer?

[michiken]

DRF wants to do something FOR the customer?

Must be a cold day ....

1. A database feed should be provided in .csv (comma separate value (http://www.creativyst.com/Doc/Articles/CSV/CSV01.htm)) format. Each line is simple text seprated by commas, tabs or quotes.

2. The user could import into the csv into a spreadsheet or database of their CHOICE.

3. Bris and HDW have been doing this for years. Where had DRF been?

4. I sure hope you are not meaning an RSS type news feed. Those are even harder to parse.

If you want to do something good for the customer and racing, get rid of the damn registration!

[Marc At DRF]

>DRF wants to do something FOR the customer?

Yep, selling stuff, it's how we stay in business.

>3. Bris and HDW have been doing this for years. Where had DRF been?

1) Behind the times.
2) Without pace figures to offer a database product of.

>4. I sure hope you are not meaning an RSS type news feed.

No--like I said, we already offer charts in a database format. We know how to do it, believe it or not. I just am trying to figure out whether there is a demand for databasing pace figures.

[PaceAdvantage]

If you want to do something good for the customer and racing, get rid of the damn registration!I'll never understand why people get so worked up about providing an email address, especially when it gets you the following:

Free Membership at DRF.com entitles you to access to much of our news coverage, your own member's homepage, live odds from tracks around the country at the DRF.com toteboard, our Watches system for tracking horses, trainers, and carryovers, plus much more. To learn more about Free Membership, click here (http://www.drf.com/misc/free_membership.html).I know from running this board how easy it is for someone to create as many email addresses as they'd like at places such as Yahoo and HotMail. It's not like you actually have to use YOUR email address....lol

This is the way the Internet is....there are very few places that give stuff away for free without requiring at least an email address (well, EQUIBASE gives stuff away without requiring an email address, but lots of folks HATE EQUIBASE as well....so go figure.....you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't).

Anyway, if anyone wishes to continue the subject of emails, registration, or anything OTHER THAN THE ORIGINAL TOPIC OF THIS THREAD, then START A NEW THREAD, as any such replies will be deleted as I try and keep things more ON TOPIC around here....

[michiken]

The signup (https://store.drf.com/drf/custom_template/free_member_signup.cfm) requires more than just an email address.

Amount Wagered Annually?

Track Most Wagered On?

Year of Birth?

State?

Sorry but I can pay my $5.50 at my local track and retain my anonmyity.

Now to go back on topic.............

I would not have interest in buying a database feed from drf.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Hi Marc,

I do not understand what you mean by a "database feed". I agree with another poster, what I would _love_ to buy is a simple csv file. A web interface would work well for me as long as it was something I could have an automated script grab.

Mike Nunamaker

[Niko]

For a database neophyte like myself- who can use a database to crunch and manipulate figures- but can't figure out how to run and test queeries.....or program spot plays

A single comma delimited file like Bris is very easy to use and saves a ton of handicapping time....

Use Bris right now and will continue until DRF has turf pace figs and then I may have a viable option.....

[SMOO]

The signup (https://store.drf.com/drf/custom_template/free_member_signup.cfm) requires more than just an email address.

Amount Wagered Annually?

Track Most Wagered On?

Year of Birth?

State?

Sorry but I can pay my $5.50 at my local track and retain my anonmyity.

Now to go back on topic.............

I would not have interest in buying a database feed from drf.
Neither would I.

[betovernetcapper]

Tough room.
Can you give an example of what you mean by data base feed? Are you talking about using the DRF figs in programs in the same way that programs use HDW data? :)

[Marc At DRF]

I mean a CSV file of Moss Pace Figs, yeah.

All I'm trying to get at is whether people would buy pace figs in a format they can export, or whether there's not really a market for that.

[JustRalph]

I mean a CSV file of Moss Pace Figs, yeah.

All I'm trying to get at is whether people would buy pace figs in a format they can export, or whether there's not really a market for that.

sure, I might buy them. As long as CJ makes them................

[RobinFromIreland]

Offer the data in XML format also. For registration, use OpenID. In a few years, most will be using it.

[Jeff P]

Marc,

Take a look at what Bris offers. Go to the Library section of their site. Under Data File Formats they list what you will find in each field of their various data file formats. Use their Single or Multi Format Data Files as an example of what to shoot for. Simple text values stored in a comma delimited CSV format. Very easy for the less "geeky" among us to import into Excel. Very easy for the "geekier still" to import into Access. Very easy for "hardcore geeks" to write programs to handle the data, do number crunching, and write custom numbers to a database.

If you want to make things easy on your customers distribute your data products in CSV format.

-jp

.

[Marc At DRF]

Thanks Jeff.

Believe it or not, we know how to do it, but the bigger issue for us is demand for this product if it's just pace figs and not either charts or PPs, for which we already offer these sort of files.

[Jeff P]

Marc,

Understood.


-jp

.

[garyoz]

Include the Beyer figs with the pace figs. It will be very important for the interpretation of the data. Are you also going to include variants, etc. Check out some of the good software programs that are pace oriented (& I don't mean Bris) and you will see some of the variables that are important for putting the figs into context.

Marc do you feel like you are in rope-a-dope mode? Ask for user input and receive much scorn. :bang:

[Marc At DRF]

gary,

good feedback (and I always enjoy your posts), and I was a bit worried you would say that. Beyers are exportable via our PP product--meaning, Formulator. Moss Figs (which do include a final time fig that are correlated to Beyer's final fig), I'm talking about databasing them as a stand-alone.

But ultimately I think we can kind of do what we (meaning the customer) want here. The question are what fields to include in a Moss Fig CSV export product. I just want to get this right so it's meaningful for people.

[MichaelNunamaker]

Hi Marc,

You wrote "Believe it or not, we know how to do it, but the bigger issue for us is demand for this product if it's just pace figs and not either charts or PPs, for which we already offer these sort of files."

I didn't recall any CSV PP product from DRF. I just looked at the website and could not find it. What are you referring to?

As far as there being demand, I'd be interested. Howver, like garyoz said, I would much prefer a single csv that had the pace figures and beyers.

BTW, you keep saying "export". If this would have to go through Formulator (which is also the reason I currently don't get any DRF PPs), I'm not interested. I automate all my day to day chores and Formulator has no scripting language.

Mike Nunamaker

[cj]

I have a lot of experience with DRF products. Formulator is able to generate csv files in multi or single file options, and are customizable to an extent. There are also charts available in csv format.

http://www.drf.com/drfTextChart.do

[Marc At DRF]

As an aside on Formulator, when we move it to the web we'll revisit the export functionalities and look to both mimic existing offerings as well as offer some better ways to do it for those interested. At which point I'll be asking you guys for feedback again.

[Tom]

Marc, something along the lines of the Winner's Book, only in comma files would be interesting.
Track, date, race no., distance, surface, fig1, fig2, fig3, fig4 would be great - actually, even track, date, race no. then the figs would suffice. Anyone using a database could easily link that table to others, showing class, conditions, sex, etc.

[DJofSD]

I'll echo what everyone else including RobinfromIreland said: comma delimited and XML is the ticket. Just about anything else will either unnecessarily make it more difficult to get to the data or will exclude potential customers.

It's about the data not about what choice DRF makes for their clients.

[Robert Fischer]

Yes offer it. As a customer I would like to suggest a low-cost approach;) .

Be sure to make available in the forms that can easily be used with programs such as excel and access and lotus (delimited?).

:ThmbUp:

[formula_2002]

Thanks Jeff.

Believe it or not, we know how to do it, but the bigger issue for us is demand for this product if it's just pace figs and not either charts or PPs, for which we already offer these sort of files.

A 30 day free trial offer of just the pace figures for all tracks should make for some heavy demand. I'd take "day old" figuers, just so I could test them.

[Rook]

Marc,

By far the best thing that your DRF could do with the Moss figures is to provide a Formulator export for them. Your running line file (CHR) is only 100 fields wide, so there is plenty of room to tack the Moss numbers there. In order to avoid angering people, you could let a customer choose to export the original CHR file if backwards compatibility was more important to him than the Moss numbers.

If you were to poll the readers of this board about customer satisfaction, I think it would be safe to predict that the DRF would rate far below your main competitors of HDW & BRIS/TSN.

Why is that? I'm sure over the years you've read a lot of reasons but I'd suggest a big one is because it seems that the DRF is always thinking about new ways to nickel and dime their customers rather than trying to increase their market share with an ever improving product.

Fifteen years ago, the DRF actually made a concerted effort to exceed their customer's expectations with a steady stream of improvements in areas like class descriptions, trainer stats, workout ranks and of course Beyer figures.
But in the last few years that has completely changed, as the DRF developments typically come at a higher cost like the jump from Formulator 3 to 4.

Have the sales of BreezeFigs and Key Race Reports been so spectacular that the DRF actually regrets that they incorporated the Beyer numbers into their main product (past performances)? If that is the case, then the DRF doesn't need my advice but if their sales have been mediocre then your company would be wise to throw your customers a bone this time and in turn make the Moss figures the 2nd best know number in the business.

[zerosky]

My question is, if you actually like these pace figures, will you have any interest in buying a database feed of them? I mean, do any of you actually database pace figs currently? Is this a product that we really need to offer?



Not being a ‘database’ guy but rather an ‘Excel’ guy I would like to see them tagged onto the Formulator export function, (as mentioned by others).

Rgds
zerosky

[Marc At DRF]

Thanks, fellas.
Some good food for thought.
The Formulator issue is a bit tricky. We're no longer developing Formulator as a piece of software; we're moving it to the web. Perhaps I'm being too cautious, but beta-testing something as comprehensive as Formulator, I anticipate it will be quite time-consuming (as it always was for the software version, and now the whole damn thing is moving to the web...it's gonna take some time). So, I'd be thrilled if we were ready to introduce the web version (including the CSV files, etc) by, say, this June.

Meanwhile, Randy is pretty close to wrapping up some more circuits and I think we'll be offering MPFs commercially in March. I'd like to offer a CSV version of MPFs in March as well. So at least initially, Moss CSV and our PP CSVs will be two separate items.

That said, Moss-enhanced PP pricing will precisely mirror Formulator pricing, and indeed be offered at no additional charge to Formulator 4 customers. And when Formulator moves to the web, the 4.1 version will include the ability to access the MPFs and place them on the screen both in a fashion similar to how they look in the current PDF product as well as a look that substitutes them for some of the running line data.

So obviously it makes sense to merge them in terms of a CSV offering. It also probably makes sense to offer them as a stand alone, for cheaper? I think so...

Rook, I don't wanna go too far into it, though I agree with some of what you've written. We currently offer too many small piecemeal items (the competition, IMO, makes the same mistake at times). One thing we're doing in the near future is starting to merge some of the smaller items into DRF Plus, which will be a stand-alone subscription but also a subscription that we comp to our longterm PP subscribers. The business, we think, will benefit from a more streamlined offering.

[Rook]

Marc At DRF wrote:

…We're no longer developing Formulator as a piece of software; we're moving it to the web. Perhaps I'm being too cautious, but beta-testing something as comprehensive as Formulator, I anticipate it will be quite time-consuming.

If you want an independent beta tester I would be very happy to serve in that capacity. I am a full time handicapper who uses the DRF export every day, so I have more than a little interest in how your product turns out.

So at least initially, Moss CSV and our PP CSVs will be two separate items.
That's a good stop gap measure.

That said, Moss-enhanced PP pricing will precisely mirror Formulator pricing, and indeed be offered at no additional charge to Formulator 4 customers.
This is a decision that will definitely make the DRF more popular. It mirrors the sort of action that Ken Massa of HTR takes to maintain such loyal customers (ie. adding MaxVel for no extra charge).

One thing we're doing in the near future is starting to merge some of the smaller items into DRF Plus, which will be a stand-alone subscription but also a subscription that we comp to our longterm PP subscribers.
It sounds like you guys are definitely heading in the right direction. I would also suggest that if you truly wanted to make your export system top notch BreezeFigs and Tomlinson numbers should be added into the running line file as well. I know that the Tomlinsons are available in the CS file but frankly it's a pain to double the number of exports just to get a few extra bits of info.

Thanks for keeping us informed and soliciting our opinions Marc. The DRF is an institution to so many of us. One of my favourite family anecdotes is that the night before a day at the races, my grandfather used to excuse himself from company by saying he was going to go read his “bible”. A lady that didn’t know him too well but had heard this line more than a few times, remarked to my grandma, “My, Bill is a very religious person isn’t he!”

[losealot]

Perhaps the DRF has a royalty problem merging figs from different authors into one comprehensive comma-delimited CSV file...that is you need to pay Moss, Beyer, Tomlinson et al...if so, that's understandable.

Speaking for myself, I'd like a comprehensive file in CSV format. The more data you include the more I'd be willing to pay. Not just because you've given me more info but because you'll be saving me the time and effort of having to merge different files to a file I can use not only for a handicapping printout but to do analysis of my entire database. That file would have to include CSV charts. I'd rather DRF added the CSV charts to the initial comprehensive file a day or two later to save me the time of downloading AND merging the charts for every race in my comprehensive datafile. That is, I'd pay one price and that would include downloading a day or two later the complete PP with relevant charts.

I'm happy to pay BRIS $3 for their ultimates, rather than buy PP's on the cheap for $1.

Not only is time equal to money but more importantly, as an individual I don't have a staff. That means I have to do all the work myself...the downloading, the handicapping, the chart gathering, the database analysis...
plus I have social obligations, personal obligations like getting groceries, maintening my car, my home...

What I'm saying is that I don't have the time or energy to download a variety of files all related to the same race card and also have a life.

Please give me (us) the option of paying more to save me the time. Also, if I pay for each different file, when I add up the costs, I'm paying about what DRF should charge for a comprehensive, complete CSV file, including charts. It should include Beyer, Moss, Tomlinson et al, comments and charts when they become available. For one such file I'd be willing to pay say $4 per card with discounts based on how many cards I download per day or per month or per year.

$4 would be very competive with BRIS' Ultimates because DRF would also include the charts.

All of the above still beats hell out of the old days of going to the track...the paper DRF, gas, program, admission, wear and tear on the car, travel time, eating at inflated prices...I was out $20 to $30 each trip before I made a single bet.

Several years ago I foolishly paid DRF $99 a month for several months to download unlimited PPs and charts for over 4,000 races in PDF format. Big mistake! Those PDF files are now worthless to me.

To sum up, the information you sell has a worth intrinsically related to how easy you make it for us to use that information, for handicapping AND analysis. You can build the best mousetrap but if using your mousetrap is too messy and time-consuming, I'll buy a cat.

I haven't forgotten the debt we all owe Steve Crist with his revolutionary Racing Times. I hope the DRF continues that legacy. Thank you Steve Crist, Andy Beyer, Racing Times, the "new" DRF, Randy Moss and people like you Marc. As for the quality of your data, that's for others to argue. As long as you keep trying and keep in touch with your users, I'll remain grateful!

My handle is "losealot". It should be "losealot less" thanks to the people who are devoted to gathering, compiling, producing and delivering information not easily accessible forty years ago. Yes, I made my own figures and daily variants WITHOUT a computer. I made some money but I had NO life.

[Marc At DRF]

Guys,

Thanks again for the feedback. I had a good talk with our development team and the idea with the Formulator relaunch on the web is a CSV offering that is comprehensive, with basic pricing for basic access and a premium for access to things like Moss, etc. Hopefully will be relatively straightforward.

[Light]

Yes, I made my own figures and daily variants WITHOUT a computer. I made some money but I had NO life.

Exactly. Personally, I would rather have more accurate variants than pacefigs,since pacefigs are dependent on the variant. If you really want "no life",try making accurate variants for the 3 pace calls(track specific) cause they do vary at times from the overall variant.There is tremendous insight into a race derived from that view.Allsmost every time I check why a horse won whose PF or SR dont add up its because the TV is off and todays TV's really need an overhaul in how they are derived and their sectional makeup needs to be introduced.

[raybo]

Did the price of the paper version of the DRF increase with the introduction of MPF? If not, then you obviously didn't see a need, financially, to increase the price. If you already offer the pre-MPF DRF in CSV format for download by non-Formulator users then why would you feel the need to offer a separate product of MPFs and then charge the customer for both the DRF csv and the MPF csv? Why not include the MPFs in the DRF csv at the same price as before, like the paper version?

I don't buy the DRF so I don't know if the price increased after the inclusion of the Moss figures or not. If, however, the complete DRF csv including MPFs was available at a price comparable to Bris/TSN I would definately download them, at least until I could verify their value. I will never use Formulator so anything that includes that name or product would not interest me. Last time I bought a DRF the price was $2.00 at the track, I get Bris single file DRF now for $1. That price seems about right to me, anything more and I won't be switching.

[raybo]

Did the price of the paper version of the DRF increase with the introduction of MPF? If not, then you obviously didn't see a need, financially, to increase the price. If you already offer the pre-MPF DRF in CSV format for download by non-Formulator users then why would you feel the need to offer a separate product of MPFs and then charge the customer for both the DRF csv and the MPF csv? Why not include the MPFs in the DRF csv at the same price as before, like the paper version?

I don't buy the DRF so I don't know if the price increased after the inclusion of the Moss figures or not. If, however, the complete DRF csv including MPFs was available at a price comparable to Bris/TSN I would definately download them, at least until I could verify their value. I will never use Formulator so anything that includes that name or product would not interest me. Last time I bought a DRF the price was $2.00 at the track, I get Bris single file DRF now for $1. That price seems about right to me, anything more and I won't be switching.

As an aside, Bris DRF has pace figures and I have to adjust them myself to gain anything useful from them. I expect the same would be true of Moss Pace Figures, or any other PFs commercially available. So, if I'm going to have to go behind you anyway, and adjust them, why would I need to stop using Bris and switch to DRF? We, most of us serious programing data users, adjust all figures, so all we need is something to start with that is affordable, our time and expertise is valueable, too. Increase your subscribers, not your cost to your subscribers. More product sales at a cheap price rather than fewer product sales at a higher price is a win-win situation.

[garyoz]

As an aside, Bris DRF has pace figures and I have to adjust them myself to gain anything useful from them. I expect the same would be true of Moss Pace Figures, or any other PFs commercially available. So, if I'm going to have to go behind you anyway, and adjust them, why would I need to stop using Bris and switch to DRF? .

Maybe they will require minimal tweaking. Remember Bris pace figures are computer generated driven by pars, variants, raw times, and lengths behind. The Moss figures are hand-adjusted. At this point with only a few weeks and a few tracks of the MPF's it is speculation to assume the same degree of adjustment, and I'd guess less--but that's speculation too. The MPF's look pretty good so far--

[raybo]

Maybe they will require minimal tweaking. Remember Bris pace figures are computer generated driven by pars, variants, raw times, and lengths behind. The Moss figures are hand-adjusted. At this point with only a few weeks and a few tracks of the MPF's it is speculation to assume the same degree of adjustment, and I'd guess less--but that's speculation too. The MPF's look pretty good so far--

I think the same could be said of Beyer's figs but everyone knows that if you use them raw, straight-up, you might as well be using any other provider's speed figs.

My statement about having to adjust Moss figs stems from the fact that he has never impressed me with his handicapping abilities so why should his figs be any different?

[Marc At DRF]

Raybo asks:

"Did the price of the paper version of the DRF increase with the introduction of MPF?"

There's about a gazillion editions of the print version of DRF around the country, and I never have any idea what the different prices are. There's zero correlation between the introduction of an online product and the pricing of our print editions.

"If not, then you obviously didn't see a need, financially, to increase the price."

If we felt that the addition of MPFs would spike market share, we'd offer them as part of our basic PPs. I think we'll pick up a few pace players who are using other figs and will find MPFs better, but generally these will appeal more to our existing customers who have been asking for them, and who have indicated they'd be comfortable paying a premium for them.

"If you already offer the pre-MPF DRF in CSV format for download by non-Formulator users"

We don't. Formulator's CSV export function was started years ago and our development group has changed a bunch since then. This has evolved into a discussion of moving our CSV functionalities strictly to something one gets from our site, not with the intermediary step of utilizing a piece of software.

"I get Bris single file DRF now for $1. That price seems about right to me, anything more and I won't be switching."

You lost me on pricing. Do you buy in bulk? We offer unlimited access for $99 a month and $799 a year....

"As an aside, Bris DRF has pace figures and I have to adjust them myself to gain anything useful from them. I expect the same would be true of Moss Pace Figures, or any other PFs commercially available."

I commented on this sort of thinking in another thread.
We don't expect anyone to switch who is really happy with what they're getting.
We do expect a certain amount of people who are looking at purely mechanical pace figures to prefer the work Randy is doing. You can "expect the same" all you'd like, but we're confident these figures are superior to any mechanical pace figures on the marketplace.

[raybo]

Raybo asks:

"Did the price of the paper version of the DRF increase with the introduction of MPF?"

There's about a gazillion editions of the print version of DRF around the country, and I never have any idea what the different prices are. There's zero correlation between the introduction of an online product and the pricing of our print editions.

"If not, then you obviously didn't see a need, financially, to increase the price."

If we felt that the addition of MPFs would spike market share, we'd offer them as part of our basic PPs. I think we'll pick up a few pace players who are using other figs and will find MPFs better, but generally these will appeal more to our existing customers who have been asking for them, and who have indicated they'd be comfortable paying a premium for them.

"If you already offer the pre-MPF DRF in CSV format for download by non-Formulator users"

We don't. Formulator's CSV export function was started years ago and our development group has changed a bunch since then. This has evolved into a discussion of moving our CSV functionalities strictly to something one gets from our site, not with the intermediary step of utilizing a piece of software.

"I get Bris single file DRF now for $1. That price seems about right to me, anything more and I won't be switching."

You lost me on pricing. Do you buy in bulk? We offer unlimited access for $99 a month and $799 a year....

"As an aside, Bris DRF has pace figures and I have to adjust them myself to gain anything useful from them. I expect the same would be true of Moss Pace Figures, or any other PFs commercially available."

I commented on this sort of thinking in another thread.
We don't expect anyone to switch who is really happy with what they're getting.
We do expect a certain amount of people who are looking at purely mechanical pace figures to prefer the work Randy is doing. You can "expect the same" all you'd like, but we're confident these figures are superior to any mechanical pace figures on the marketplace.

["Did the price of the paper version of the DRF increase with the introduction of MPF?"

There's about a gazillion editions of the print version of DRF around the country, and I never have any idea what the different prices are. There's zero correlation between the introduction of an online product and the pricing of our print editions.]

I take this to mean that the price structure for the printed version did not increase after the MPFs.

["If not, then you obviously didn't see a need, financially, to increase the price."

If we felt that the addition of MPFs would spike market share, we'd offer them as part of our basic PPs. I think we'll pick up a few pace players who are using other figs and will find MPFs better, but generally these will appeal more to our existing customers who have been asking for them, and who have indicated they'd be comfortable paying a premium for them.]

The data users, as a whole, are a pretty intelligent group. If you offer the data files by themselves, without having to use a commercial program with them, and the price is structured to compete with Bris and TSN, and , as you say they will be superior figures, raw, then many more data users than you think would switch to your data. I think that's a given.

["I get Bris single file DRF now for $1. That price seems about right to me, anything more and I won't be switching."

You lost me on pricing. Do you buy in bulk? We offer unlimited access for $99 a month and $799 a year.... ]

I, for one, have never downloaded $99 worth of data in any month during the last several years. I pay $1 per track per day thru Bris and play only 1 or 2 tracks per day, far less than $99. I prefer being able to download and pay for them as needed, not as an unlimited thing, I would be wasting money, as many others would. Unlimited downloads are for people who bet many many races per month because they have to have action in order to produce enough profit to make it worthwhile to play. Many out here don't have to have much action in order to make it worth it. I was a silver member with Bris for a while when I was using their MultiCaps files,( $30 minimum cost per month, 15 racecards), because they were $5 per day per track as a non silver or gold member, I saved money by doing this. Since then I have returned to the Bris DRF file because I don't use RR or CR anymore, which could be found only in MultiCaps and higher data.

[garyoz]

I think the same could be said of Beyer's figs but everyone knows that if you use them raw, straight-up, you might as well be using any other provider's speed figs.

"Everyone knows" is a bit of a sweeping statement. I think there are plenty of users of CJ's figures or Jim Cramer's (HDW) speed figures who would disagree, not to mention the premium services like The Sheets and Thorograph. Or are you just referring to Bris v. Beyers? I don't have a dog in that last fight, but I'd bet some players would disagree.

[raybo]

"Everyone knows" is a bit of a sweeping statement. I think there are plenty of users of CJ's figures or Jim Cramer's (HDW) speed figures who would disagree, not to mention the premium services like The Sheets and Thorograph. Or are you just referring to Bris v. Beyers? I don't have a dog in that last fight, but I'd bet some players would disagree.

Was referring to Beyers figs. Anyone who really has the scoop on them knows that you can't just use them point blank, it's been discussed for years. Andy even said that himself.

Not going to get into a discussion of the figs promoted by members of this forum. Been there, done that.

My point in posting in this thread was: why, if you already offer Moss figs in the printed version without an increase in cost, would you charge us data file users extra for them? It rubs me the wrong way. If DRF offered their DRF file with the Moss figs at a cost comparable to what Bris charges, I would certainly download some just to check out the Moss figs, and if they are really superior figs I would switch from Bris data. But, I will not buy both files, when I already have Bris pace figs adjusted in my handicapping program. A buck a racecard suits me fine.

[Tom]

They aren't in the printed version.
ANDY said not to use his figures "staight up" ???
What's the "scoop" on Beyers?

[raybo]

They aren't in the printed version.
ANDY said not to use his figures "staight up" ???
What's the "scoop" on Beyers?


Ok, now I'm really confounded. If they aren't in the printed version, then how do the people that aren't using datafiles get them?

[cj]

Ok, now I'm really confounded. If they aren't in the printed version, then how do the people that aren't using datafiles get them?

They are available in the PDF versions. The only way to get them is online.

[raybo]

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They aren't in the printed version.
ANDY said not to use his figures &quot;staight up&quot; ???
What's the &quot;scoop&quot; on Beyers?




Beyers' can be used if all you want to know is which horse is the fastest horse in the race, as can Bris or a number of other speed figs, based on past performances. They all have to be adjusted, regarding other factors, condition, bias, etc.) in order to use them successfully.


I tried to find the article where Andy stated that other things have to be considered. No luck.


They are a starting point, as are Bris figs and the others. If you use Beyers figs or Bris or the others, without adjusting them, then you will probably come up with what the public is betting. Is that what you want? Then use them "raw".

[Marc At DRF]

Raybo wrote:

"My point in posting in this thread was: why, if you already offer Moss figs in the printed version without an increase in cost, would you charge us data file users extra for them? It rubs me the wrong way."

Just to make it doubly clear--we don't offer these figures in our print editions. It's unlikely we will any time soon. This an online, premium deal.

On pricing, if a customer signs up for an annual 240 card plan from us (you sound like you use more than that, though), it's $299 a year, or $1.24 a card. At 2 cards a day, it's 720 card a year for $549, which is much cheaper than a $1 per card deal...

Our model still nods to our print product a bit, so $1 a card isn't the direction we're going, but there are plenty of options from us...

[alysheba88]

Beyers' can be used if all you want to know is which horse is the fastest horse in the race, as can Bris or a number of other speed figs, based on past performances. They all have to be adjusted, regarding other factors, condition, bias, etc.) in order to use them successfully.


I tried to find the article where Andy stated that other things have to be considered. No luck.


They are a starting point, as are Bris figs and the others. If you use Beyers figs or Bris or the others, without adjusting them, then you will probably come up with what the public is betting. Is that what you want? Then use them "raw".


There is more confusion and misunderstanding about Beyers than anything I can think of. If you are looking for other things Andy considers read any book he has written since 1977. No matter how many times he tells people not to bet speed figures blindly people still continue to misunderstand-willfully so at some point.

As a side note they do not purport to say who the "fastest horse" is