What's wrong with racing

[Bruddah]

First let me admit, I love Oaklawn Park and have so for over 40 years. However, the reason for my question is not a biased one. I truly do not understand how Oaklawn, the "Saratoga of the South" continues to outdraw the icons of thoroughbred racing. This past Saturday Oaklawn had attendance of 21,336 paying patrons. This was more than the total paid attendance of Santa Anita, Aqueduct, Fair Grounds and Gulf Stream Park combined.

Admittedly, 21,000 patrons is much less than Oaklawn has had in previous years. But, less than 21,000 folks for four of thoroughbred racing icons, in major markets, SUCKS BIGTIME! Can racing survive with these numbers?

For those saying this is an anomally. Wrong, Oaklawn will continue to fill seats and leed attendance figures for their entire meet. Some will say, there is nothing else to do in Arkansas. Wrong, there are as many activities competing for the entertainment dollar, plus Casino gambling.

Honestly, this not a contest to indicate why one track is better than another. It's a sincere question regarding the state of health of Thoroughbred racing.

How/ Why is the Thoroughbred Industry losing all of it's fan base??

[jballscalls]

where did u get your attendance information? i looked on equibase and couldnt find the attendance numbers for GP, just curious where you can find that info?

[blind squirrel]

well,how many casinos are in arkansas?....0.they've got a monopoly
on gambling.

[The Judge]

but I bet the people are treated pretty nice by the track. Also I know that in the south people don't let driving get in their way of having a good time, they drive hundreds of miles to college football games, they go to high school games. They are located not far from other states and they have good racing.

I know that does'nt begin to answer the question about other tracks but I would say in general the public is fed up with being gouged and treated badly and every turn. You can't talk to a live person on the phone, you can't trust anyone to keep their word. Why go to the race track to get ignored and abused. I bet Oaklawn is alot different and a pleasant place to be.

[cj's dad]

I bet Oaklawn is a lot different and a pleasant place to be.[/QUOTE]

I went to Oaklawn once and found that the atmosphere was great, the help polite and that there was something to do in the area after the races, much like Keeneland !! Many tracks are in dogs--t parts of town and people therefore avoid them. Also I've been to many tracks and Oaklawn is not in the price gouging business.

[Cangamble]

From my understanding, it is because there is nothing to compete with them within a 200 mile radius (correct me if I'm wrong). What else is there to do in Arkansas except gamble or find fresh roadkill for dinner.

The Instant Racing game has been a big boon for them too. Probably gets a few slot players interested in live racing as well.

[boomman]

Having grown up in Kansas City, Oaklawn and the old Aksarben (in Omaha) were the two tracks that I "cut my teeth on" in racing. In fact, I remember vividly when Oaklawn only had one exotic wager a day, and that was the Daily Double on the 1st 2 races, as they sought for many years to keep it "traditional". You will be hard pressed to find better prices or friendlier people than at Oaklawn, and they draw big crowds because they make it an "event". Terry Wallace and all of the marketing people do a great job of educating new racing fans and getting the track "out there" not just during the live race meet but throughout the year!

Boomer

[Bruddah]

21,000+ paying fans for a Saturday is nothing to be proud of. Many High School fotball games will draw that amount on a Friday nite. What astonishes me is, that we (Industry) can't draw in our major markets. The racing in Los Angeles, New York, Florida and New Orleans should be doing more than a small Mountain town of 40,000. To me this smacks of an Industry problem rather than a regional problem.

Quote taken fom Notes and Quotes at the Oaklawn Website. Referring to the Holiday crowd expected on Monday. (today)

There will be something for every taste: a $55,000 cash giveaway, full-card simulcasting from racetracks far and wide, Instant Racing, and most of all, a ten-race live racing program featuring the 42nd running of the Southwest for three-year-olds at a flat mile.

It seems safe to say that Oaklawn’s on-track crowd will surpass the attendance at Santa Anita, Aqueduct, Fair Grounds and Gulfstream Park combined. Such was the case on Saturday when the Oaklawn crowd of 21,336 exceeded the combined total of those four tracks

[Bruddah]

well,how many casinos are in arkansas?....0.they've got a monopoly
on gambling.

There are now two Racinos in Arkansas, both presently on a small basis. Of course one is Oaklawn and the other is in West Memphis. A GreyHound track. However, there are 12 casinos in Tunica Ms., just actoss the Mississippi bridge. Following the Mississippi river and bordering Arkansas you will find other Casinos in Greenville Ms., Vicksburg Ms, and Natchez Ms. All of these just a few hours drive from anywhere in the state. Not unlike points in New York state to their nearest Casino.

[point given]

but I bet the people are treated pretty nice by the track. Also I know that in the south people don't let driving get in their way of having a good time, they drive hundreds of miles to college football games, they go to high school games. They are located not far from other states and they have good racing.

I know that does'nt begin to answer the question about other tracks but I would say in general the public is fed up with being gouged and treated badly and every turn. You can't talk to a live person on the phone, you can't trust anyone to keep their word. Why go to the race track to get ignored and abused. I bet Oaklawn is alot different and a pleasant place to be.

Friday, Feb.16,2007

Arrived at gulfstream on a blustery day of mid 50's with 20 mph winds and headed into the simulcast room. Seats were sold out and there was a crowd 3-4 deep behind the ropes standing . The south clubhouse room is empty and being refurbished (probably for more slots). We go upstairs to the Serenata room and it is closed. We go into the 10 palms restaurant and it is very crowded. We stand around and watch races on TVs. Go outside to view a few live races and cameback inside. Then we leave , disgusted with facility and the poor quality of races .

Saturday, Feb. 17, 2007

It gets worse, if that can be possible.

It's still chilly outside, but sunny. We get a table in the simulcast Serenata room. On the side walls , there a numerous 30-40 " flat screen tvs with numerous tracks running. On the big screens above the stage in the middle , they only show the gulfstream and Aqueduct signals. There are 3 more screens , which they are keeping black, so you can't follow the other tracks.

They put a flier on the table which states that we must vacate the table at 5:15 PM... A waitress comes by and tells us we must order something, there are people waiting and there are security people walking around.We order a drink. Around 3:45 the skinhead ,wiseguy manager of the room goes around announcing that this is the last race, and all have to vacate the tables. We point out the flier and tell him 5:15 is when we will leave,like the flier states. I let him have it stating loudly that " this is the Magna Hospitality of how you treat your customers ! " He backs off saying he is only preparing us to leave at 5:15. My buddy owns horses and has been in the game for 50 years and is an upbeat guy. He said he didnot feel comfortable there. I just talked to him today, monday and he said Sunday was worse than Saturday. H couldnot get a seat in the simulcast clubhouse, went back to the Serenata room, could not get a table but could only find a seat there. Then when he went to bet, someone stole his program from his seat. THIS, is the experience at gulfstream on days when the weather was coolish outside with wind. there simply is not enough room for horseplayers to comfortably be customers. The SOuth clubhouse , which was a simulcast area last year is closed during the prime racing meet. AT GULFSTREAM THE HORSE RACING CUSTOMER COMES LAST !

[The Judge]

This is 2007 not 1940 21,000 fans competes with basketball, hockey, soccer and every other sport except some baseball games, football, race cars, wrestling, and big time boxing.

21,000 people at the track is nothing to sneeze at. The days of 40,000 people at the track is long gone. I What is the largest Breeders Cup crowd does anyone know?

[Zman179]

Well, Aqueduct will never have decent attendance because of OTB. Why travel all the way in 14° weather to Ozone Park when every single household in the City of New York that is wired up for cable gets the Aqueduct video feed for free on Channel 71? New York racing during the winter becomes an indoor spectator sport. If you were to count all of the people who go to the OTB's in New York, you'd easily count 40,000 to 50,000 people. The people are still here, they're just spread out.

Same thing with Los Angeles. Santa Anita used to draw 20,000 people on a Thursday afternoon in the early 90's because there was no off-track wagering in Los Angeles County. When LAOTW began, people no longer saw fit to drive a distance when they could go 10 minutes to Hollywood Park or Pomona.

Oaklawn has such a large attendance because it is a boutique meet, there is no OTB system, and there is, frankly, very little to do in Arkansas other than gamble. It also says something about the lack of convenience in placing a horse racing bet in Arkansas.

[kenwoodallpromos]

They are closed during football season, and the lady's high school basketball team that my niece plays on and is broadcast on the biggest radio station in Little Rock only plays in the evening! (no competition).

[Bruddah]

show up, when trying to discuss issues pertinent to this sport. If you don't think people in Arkansas can't place phone wagers, you show your ignorance. If you think the same attractions for entertainment dollars aren't available in Arkansa, then again, your regional ignorance is showing. It's more like a petty jealousy you're exhibiting. How boorish and coloquial on your part.

Sorry, I don't have time for such nonsense. If you would like to discuss what's wrong with the Thoroughbred Racing Industry, rather than bring up nonsensical regional prejudices, please attempt to do so in an informed intelligent manner. Otherwise, your slip is showing.

[jma]

This is 2007 not 1940 21,000 fans competes with basketball, hockey, soccer and every other sport except some baseball games, football, race cars, wrestling, and big time boxing.

21,000 people at the track is nothing to sneeze at. The days of 40,000 people at the track is long gone. I What is the largest Breeders Cup crowd does anyone know?

Biggest Breeders Cup attendance was at Churchill in 1998, a little over 80,000.

http://www.ntra.com/images/2006_MEDIA_BCbythenumbers.pdf

Biggest handle was $136 million+ in 2006.

http://horseracing.about.com/od/breederscup/ss/aa110406a.htm

[jma]

show up, when trying to discuss issues pertinent to this sport. If you don't think people in Arkansas can't place phone wagers, you show your ignorance. If you think the same attractions for entertainment dollars aren't available in Arkansa, then again, your regional ignorance is showing. It's more like a petty jealousy you're exhibiting. How boorish and coloquial on your part.

Sorry, I don't have time for such nonsense. If you would like to discuss what's wrong with the Thoroughbred Racing Industry, rather than bring up nonsensical regional prejudices, please attempt to do so in an informed intelligent manner. Otherwise, your slip is showing.

Since you are familiar with Arkansas and I'm not, I'm not going to argue about what there is to do there as compared to New York or southern California. If you don't buy "fewer things to do" as the reason, do you think it could be because attending live races is still an "event" at Oaklawn, a thing for casual fans to do? Sort of like at Keeneland, or Del Mar, or Saratoga? It's just not seen that way at Aqueduct, Fair Grounds, etc. these days, though as long as people are betting, that's the main thing. Still, it looks like Oaklawn is doing things right, in a part of the country where attending the races live is still a popular event---and the people are showing up.

[ELA]

When I read a question like that, I tend to look at it more globally and in a big picture as our industry and sport has many problems that truly need to be addressed. Years ago, when the sport, industry, track management, etc. turned a deaf ear to these problems, they lost customers, market share, attendance, handle, and other things as well. It was a question of "can we thrive" in (the then) today's environment.

Today, it's no longer about losing market share, customers, attendance, handle, etc. -- today it's about survival!

I am a NY/NJ based owner, fan, and bettor. I've been treated extremely well at certain tracks -- like Monmouth Park, and I've been treated extremely poorly on occasion -- unfortunately, at my home track(s), being NYRA.

When looking at various tracks, it's often impossible to do so on a comparitive basis as many of the tracks are very different in so many ways -- geographics, economics, dynamic, and so on.

So, why are we losing fan base and all that goes along with it? Here are my answers. First, we have a very difficult product to "sell" for both live racing, simulcasting, and TV coverage. The product, and the sport, needs to reinvent itself and repackage itself. Second, track owners/operators, and management must realize the consumer -- as a whole, not just the $2 bettor or the big whale, but as an entire community -- has changed. Rebates, better food, better facilities, and many more things must be part of the solution. Simulcasting deals must be drastically changed and overhauled. OTB's, in those states that have them and where they are problematic must be repositioned so that they are not competition for the tracks. Rebates must be addressed in a way that the lack of them will not cause the tracks to completely lose that business. I don't know if that's possible.

Now, the real issue is the product, getting people to the track and all that goes along with it. Simply, there is more competition today -- for wagering dollars, entertainment, time, and so on. That is why these tracks need to have a paradigm shift in how they market and cater to fans, bettors, and the population at large in order to get them to the facility. That aspect is a discussion in and of itself.

So, there is my soapbox preaching for the day, LOL.

Eric

[skate]

i dont see the fact that the attendance was up at OP to be a negative on the sport, just do not get that point.

it is true, a good sat. for OP with 21, 000 and 12, 00 on Sun. not bad either.

bottom line, to which we refer, the sport is the most popular of any sports, was, still is, but with lots of action being taken in thru Casinos and the PC crowd some attendasnce figures could be missread.:kiss:

car race pulls in 240, 000 fans, but does not race again for another 6mos.

horse race pulls in 1000, races again next day and for the next 350 days and at another 100 tracks. gives you about 8 times (conservatively) the attendance totals, not counting off track and PC wagers.


figures are not ment to be exact, but help yourself.

[Indulto]

Since you are familiar with Arkansas and I'm not, I'm not going to argue about what there is to do there as compared to New York or southern California. If you don't buy "fewer things to do" as the reason, do you think it could be because attending live races is still an "event" at Oaklawn, a thing for casual fans to do? Sort of like at Keeneland, or Del Mar, or Saratoga? It's just not seen that way at Aqueduct, Fair Grounds, etc. these days, though as long as people are betting, that's the main thing. Still, it looks like Oaklawn is doing things right, in a part of the country where attending the races live is still a popular event---and the people are showing up.jma,
I agree with you that OP benefits from its location and schedule as a vacation venue like SAR and DMR. I guess it’s easier to be customer-friendly when the customers themselves are friendlier to begin with.

It seems to me that racing continues to be popular among those who are really into the game, but there is little opportunity for dedicated players to rejuvenate themselves, or to introduce new players to the game in relaxed fashion while not focusing on their own involvement.

With year-round racing and the ability to wager on and view races at some track everyday, no one gets to “miss the action” anymore. In the ‘60s and ‘70s, I used to look forward to the resumption of racing at AQU in March with great anticipation.

I attended winter racing only once – to see Chompion win at Liberty Bell in “fetlock-deep” mud. Maybe there’s something attractive about near-freezing days in Ozone Park, but I guess I’m just not cold-blooded enough to compete in unattractive surroundings.

[ELA]

Friday, Feb.16,2007

Arrived at gulfstream on a blustery day of mid 50's with 20 mph winds and headed into the simulcast room. Seats were sold out and there was a crowd 3-4 deep behind the ropes standing . The south clubhouse room is empty and being refurbished (probably for more slots). We go upstairs to the Serenata room and it is closed. We go into the 10 palms restaurant and it is very crowded. We stand around and watch races on TVs. Go outside to view a few live races and cameback inside. Then we leave , disgusted with facility and the poor quality of races .

Saturday, Feb. 17, 2007

It gets worse, if that can be possible.

It's still chilly outside, but sunny. We get a table in the simulcast Serenata room. On the side walls , there a numerous 30-40 " flat screen tvs with numerous tracks running. On the big screens above the stage in the middle , they only show the gulfstream and Aqueduct signals. There are 3 more screens , which they are keeping black, so you can't follow the other tracks.

They put a flier on the table which states that we must vacate the table at 5:15 PM... A waitress comes by and tells us we must order something, there are people waiting and there are security people walking around.We order a drink. Around 3:45 the skinhead ,wiseguy manager of the room goes around announcing that this is the last race, and all have to vacate the tables. We point out the flier and tell him 5:15 is when we will leave,like the flier states. I let him have it stating loudly that " this is the Magna Hospitality of how you treat your customers ! " He backs off saying he is only preparing us to leave at 5:15. My buddy owns horses and has been in the game for 50 years and is an upbeat guy. He said he didnot feel comfortable there. I just talked to him today, monday and he said Sunday was worse than Saturday. H couldnot get a seat in the simulcast clubhouse, went back to the Serenata room, could not get a table but could only find a seat there. Then when he went to bet, someone stole his program from his seat. THIS, is the experience at gulfstream on days when the weather was coolish outside with wind. there simply is not enough room for horseplayers to comfortably be customers. The SOuth clubhouse , which was a simulcast area last year is closed during the prime racing meet. AT GULFSTREAM THE HORSE RACING CUSTOMER COMES LAST !

This is the problem. This does not bode well for Gulfstream -- both present and future, which, contrary to popular belief, I did have high hopes for.

Eric

[blind squirrel]

There are now two Racinos in Arkansas, both presently on a small basis. Of course one is Oaklawn and the other is in West Memphis. A GreyHound track. However, there are 12 casinos in Tunica Ms., just actoss the Mississippi bridge. Following the Mississippi river and bordering Arkansas you will find other Casinos in Greenville Ms., Vicksburg Ms, and Natchez Ms. All of these just a few hours drive from anywhere in the state. Not unlike points in New York state to their nearest Casino.

I wouldn't call SOUTHLAND a casino{lol}.....it's a run down dog track surrounded
by truck stops....i haven't been to OAKLAWN recently,do they have a
CASINO?

[Zman179]

show up, when trying to discuss issues pertinent to this sport. If you don't think people in Arkansas can't place phone wagers, you show your ignorance. If you think the same attractions for entertainment dollars aren't available in Arkansa, then again, your regional ignorance is showing. It's more like a petty jealousy you're exhibiting. How boorish and coloquial on your part.

Sorry, I don't have time for such nonsense. If you would like to discuss what's wrong with the Thoroughbred Racing Industry, rather than bring up nonsensical regional prejudices, please attempt to do so in an informed intelligent manner. Otherwise, your slip is showing.

If you honestly believe that Hot Springs, Arkansas has the same attractions for entertainment dollars as Los Angeles and New York, then there is nothing else that I can say.

Secondly, instead of crying that the sky is falling about horse racing, just understand that people do not go to the track in NY or LA because they do not have to. Hot Springs, Arkansas is not in the same league as New York or Los Angeles. 21,000 people do not go to the track in these cities, the track comes to them. It's not being boorish, it's fact. If racing was really, really suffering, then handle would not be creeping up on an annual basis like it has been. Do the following articles give the picture that racing is failing?

http://www.aqha.com/news/racingsnumbers.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2005_Feb_4/ai_n9493328

http://www.ntra.com/content.aspx?type=pr&style=red&id=22765

This Saturday, while Oaklawn had 21,336 fans in the stands, Santa Anita had 9,542 fans, and Aqueduct had a "paltry" 3,190, you saw the small picture and not the big one.

Oaklawn handled $1,672,985 on-track for a per-person capita of $78.
Aqueduct handled $793,562 on-track for a per-person capita of $248.
Santa Anita handled $3,197,269 on-track for a per-person capita of $335.

Oaklawn handled a grand total of $3,222,067 on their 10 race card. This handle, supplied by the DRF, is from all sources, both in the Continental US and from foreign outlets (i.e. Canada, etc.)
Aqueduct intra-state handle was $2,754,920 on their 9 race card. This handle, supplied by the DRF, is the handle on wagers within the State of New York ONLY. Historically, 75% of this figure is from bets placed in the five boroughs of New York City, Nassau and Suffolk Counties.
I've already mentioned what Santa Anita did.

In conclusion, the above stats, all furnished by Equibase and the Daily Racing Form, showed that Santa Anita with its 9,542 fans nearly DOUBLED the handle of 21,336 at Oaklawn. And poor ol' Aqueduct, with nearly 85% fewer fans on-track, nearly halved the handle of Oaklawn...and Aqueduct ran one fewer race!
And you say that WE have a problem with OUR racing industries?!?!? I'd say that it's the people at Oaklawn that have the problem. After all, the execs at Oaklawn couldn't pry open the wallets of their fans with a crow bar.

I certainly hope that I made my case to you, Bruddah, in an informed, intelligent manner.

[Bruddah]

are so eaten up by regional jealousy. Especially, when this thread originally had nothing to do about one track over another.

Using all of your math, insert the population base of the four track icons and there is no comparison of the numbers. Insert the fact, Oaklawn is very profitable as a track and the NYRA is begging for it's proverbial life. Insert the fact New York tracks are foul smelling p*ss houses, with bad food, personnel and patrons, I will take Oaklawn everyday.

This didn't start out to be Oaklawn against the rest of New York or any other region, but you guys (morons) quickly took it there. Since you have, wake up and smell the reality of your quagmire. You guys live in a fantasy world. The Management of New York racing SUCKS, alwas has and always will, because that's what you as a fan accept. :lol: :lol:

They feed you the crap you deem acceptable. Plain and simple. :lol:

[PaceAdvantage]

Bruddah, why not address the salient points made in this thread, instead of resorting to unproductive name calling and flaming?

Replace the name OAKLAWN with SARATOGA and you will get the same arguments. There's LITTLE to do in Saratoga besides go to the flats during the day, that's why attendance is so high at Saratoga compared to Belmont and Aqueduct. It's a marquee event that runs for a limited time every year, just like Oaklawn.

Being a resident of NY, you're not going to find me getting all upset when someone claims that the reason Saratoga has such high attendance (comparatively speaking) is because that the track is the only game in town during the day.

Remember, Saratoga is still run by NYRA, which you just described as:

"The Management of New York racing SUCKS, always has and always will, because that's what you as a fan accept."

If this is true, then how come Saratoga continues to set attendance records compared to all the other tracks out there?

When you answer that question, you'll answer the question as to why Oaklawn is currently outdrawing all the other tracks running right now.

[Bruddah]

you seem to be addressing my original question. What seems to be wrong with racing? Are the only quality meets those which seem to be short and "Boutique" in nature. i.e. Saratoga, Oaklawn, Breeders Cup, Keeneland, Triple Crown series. Those creating an "Event", which patrons of all types and abilities will attend. I have long been a proponet of tracks creating marketing events. Preferrably on a monthly basis. Weekly would be over done. (JMHO)

As far as the number game played by your fellow New York posters, use the population base differentials of the 4 venues and Arkansas to extrapilate meaningful information and, one derives a completely different view of this argument. Add the fact, that Oaklawn is profitable and caters an event to the bettor and Thoroughbred fan, makes me stand by my statement of, the fan will get what they settle for. In the case of NYRA...it's crap, pure and simple. Facilities to service...plain crap. It has been crap sliding down hill for a long while. New York racing used to be the Cream of the crop. I even thought there was none better. Now, it's cream of the crap. That is FACT!!

[Zman179]

Right, I'm a moron.

But as a moron, if I'm going to flame somebody, I'd make sure that my spelling and grammar are correct with words like extrapolate (use an o, not an i) or colloquial (two l's). By the way, if you had something called a DICTIONARY, you'd notice that colloquial is not used as a negative term.

Take some of your Oaklawn winnings and buy one.

[Bruddah]

I will certainly try to be more careful in the future. I don't want you up all night again. I know how hard it is for you.

However, it does give you some entertainment and keeps you off the streets, at night. For which, I am sure, the local population is appreciative. :lol: :lol:

As Bugs Bunny would say, "WHAT A MAROON". :lol:

[Bruddah]

Welcome to Oaklawn 2007, our 103rd year of racing excitement.

Once again we had a memorable year of racing in 2006, including the largest crowd ever at Oaklawn, 72,464, on Arkansas Derby Day. Since then we eagerly enjoyed the Simulcast Season, including the continued fine performances by stars of the 2006 live meet, the continued growth of Instant Racing and eventually by the addition of electronic games of skill, which should pay off for the entire community over many years

A lot of race fans with nothing to do in a small mountain town. Most of the 40,000 population went through the turnstiles twice. According to regionally biased Maroons.

Whatever Saratoga and Oaklawn are doing with their Boutique meets, should be an example to the rest of the Industry. :kiss:

[The Judge]

Racing has very few and I will say no stars. The top jockeys have retired,
only a hand full of jockeys could be reconized by anyone other then an avid race fan.

The best horses get injured or are retired after their 3 year old season. How can you form a fan base with such a product. If we do get a 3 year old star they don't run neerly enough for my liking.

If owners would let their horses run more often and compete against the best, travel east and travel west to run against the best. Let your big horse run at 4 and 5 years of age this would do worlds for on track attendace. These would be events that you would want to be at the track to witness.

Work on the personel let them know that the customer comes first.

[PaceAdvantage]

Whatever Saratoga and Oaklawn are doing with their Boutique meets, should be an example to the rest of the Industry. :kiss:

Do you think that if the Oaklawn Jockey club operated two other racetracks such that they provided year-round racing to Arkansas, that all three tracks would generate the same type of attendance figures that Oaklawn now enjoys?

The age of simulcasting has doomed forever the concept of a packed clubhouse on any regular (non-marquee-event) race day. That's a simple fact.

The other simple fact is that small attendance figures do not necessarily indicate a failing industry. The wagering handle is what counts as the lifeblood of this industry, not physical attendance at the racing venue itself.

[Bruddah]

given the same population base, the Oaklawn Jockey Club would do a heck of a lot better running three tracks than any previous management of New York racing. Of course this is just pure speculation, on both of our parts.

Obviously, they know how to market to their region and educate new fans. Which has realy been Oaklawn's managements strength, over 103 years. Keep the older ones coming back and fill the stands with young college students.

[Indulto]

Do you think that if the Oaklawn Jockey club operated two other racetracks such that they provided year-round racing to Arkansas, that all three tracks would generate the same type of attendance figures that Oaklawn now enjoys?Presumably, the Oaklawn Jockey Club would not conduct a meet at which it lost money.

[PaceAdvantage]

So neither of you answered my very simple Yes/No question....interesting...

[Indulto]

So neither of you answered my very simple Yes/No question....interesting...It sure looked like a rhetorical question to me.

If all you wanted was a yes or no answer, why didn't you set it up as a poll? ;)

[Bruddah]

Not only yes but, HELL YES!! Nothing ambiguous here. Now prove me wrong according to your presumptive logic.

[PaceAdvantage]

Not only yes but, HELL YES!! Nothing ambiguous here. Now prove me wrong according to your presumptive logic.

So then it is your assertion that more product being offered to the same audience would not weaken demand. Interesting.

You don't think people would say to themselves, "well, I don't really have to make it a point to get out there today, since they will be running all year-round. Maybe I'll just bet from home today and save a trip."

Kind of flies in the face of economics 101 if you ask me.

But we're all entitled to our opinions.

[Bruddah]

The key is population base. Your assertion does not allow for this KEY. My first answer to you was YES, based on the same population. I stand by that first response.

On second thought, maybe Thoroughbred racing is over exposed in New York state. Question to you PA: Which meet or meets would you do away with? and why?

[PaceAdvantage]

On second thought, maybe Thoroughbred racing is over exposed in New York state. Question to you PA: Which meet or meets would you do away with? and why?

I wouldn't do away with any of the three tracks. I have always loved winter racing in NY, and Saratoga is a jewel in the Thoroughbred world. Belmont is awesome in the spring and fall. What is there to get rid of?

All of the meets continue to generate big handle. The problem is the conditions under which the NYRA franchise is required to be operated by law, and that's not a discussion meant for this particular thread.

Do you want to know what the single greatest thing "wrong" with racing is? DRUGS and CHEATS (two things actually, but they go hand in hand).

DRUGS and CHEATS are the two things that can drive a player away from this game faster than you can say "OAKLAWN RULES!"

If a person is a losing player, and he or she believes that he CAN'T IMPROVE HIS GAME ENOUGH TO BECOME A WINNING PLAYER, because of the real (or perceived) use of illegal DRUGS by owners, trainers & vets, well then, you will have a major crisis on your hands in no time.

They have to clean up this sport's image in terms of cheating trainers. Uniform NATIONAL medication rules are a MUST. Harsh, uniform, NATIONAL PENALTIES are a MUST for the lawbreakers! The NTRA needs to step up and take control. Sadly, they have little power to do so because each track or group of tracks is its own little fiefdom.

I personally wish everyone would go back to way NYRA used to operate - no race day medications whatsoever. Not only would this do away with the potential masking effects of Lasix, etc., but it would go a long way towards building a STRONGER BREED of Thoroughbred - thus LESS BREAKDOWNS, another potential FAN KILLER.

I better end this post now....:lol:

[jma]

The key is population base. Your assertion does not allow for this KEY. My first answer to you was YES, based on the same population. I stand by that first response.

On second thought, maybe Thoroughbred racing is over exposed in New York state. Question to you PA: Which meet or meets would you do away with? and why?

Yet on earlier posts in the threat, you argued...

"you seem to be addressing my original question. What seems to be wrong with racing? Are the only quality meets those which seem to be short and "Boutique" in nature. i.e. Saratoga, Oaklawn, Breeders Cup, Keeneland, Triple Crown series. Those creating an "Event", which patrons of all types and abilities will attend. I have long been a proponet of tracks creating marketing events. Preferrably on a monthly basis. Weekly would be over done. (JMHO)"

and

"Whatever Saratoga and Oaklawn are doing with their Boutique meets, should be an example to the rest of the Industry."

So first you say that boutique meets (if a 3-month meet like Oaklawn's is a "boutique" meet) are the key, and then you say that Oaklawn could run all year long like NYRA and still have great attendance. Sorry, but if your point is that "Oaklawn management are geniuses and everyone else involved in racing is a moron", then I'll have to let you argue with yourself. It's nice to have pride in your favorite whatever, but if the Oaklawn people were running NYRA, there wouldn't be automatically be 25,000 people at Aqueduct. So, you can start the Oaklawn fan club, and "maroons" like me will just bet there when we see fit. Glad you like the place though---racing needs more fans like you. :)

[Jeff P]

posted by The Judge:
We Have No StarsBingo. IMHO, racing needs to make a concerted effort to address this. Take a look at other sports for a second.

Want the perfect example? How about Golf? Unless you're a golfer yourself how much interest do you really have watching TV on a Sunday afternoon just to see people driving, chipping, and putting? I'm guessing about the same as mine. Somewhere close to Zilch. But look what golf has going for it. Tiger. Phil. Vijay. In other words... Stars. So people watch... not to see the game... but to see what the stars do. And what do they talk about on their coffee breaks come Monday? The stars.

How about basketball? The NBA has done an incredible job of grabbing the limelight. How? Again, look no further than its stars.

Is car racing a sport? Technically, IMHO, no. But NASCAR has somehow made stars out of its drivers. And as a result millions of fans tune in each week. They can't wait to see how many points their favorite driver ends up with and how close he is in the standings in the hunt for the Cup.

Who are the stars in racing? Rich owners who fans can't identify with? Track management who gouges fans with ridiculous prices for everything? Trainers serving suspensions for drugging their horses? Riders who wrap up early... clearly not trying to win races... who are already standing up in the irons BEFORE their mount crosses the wire while another horse beats them out for the other half of the exacta? Are you f'ing kidding me?

IMHO, in racing the only real heroes we have are the horses themselves. Man of War. Citation. Kelso. Secretariat. Ruffian. Affirmed. Alydar. Spectacular Bid. Sunday Silence. Easy Goer. Bayakoa. Go for Wand... and so many others - all of them stars.

But check the list of names I just gave out. Are any of them recent? Umm... No. Seems to me racing hasn't seen any stars in a while. Afleet Alex... Lost In The Fog... Barbaro... Stars in the making to be sure. But sadly their careers were cut short.

Personally I think you can trace careers being cut short back to about the time when Sunday Silence was sold to Japanese breeding interests. That marked the start of a trend where the best horses on the planet weren't being raced here anymore. But that's another matter entirely.

What's wrong with racing?

IMHO, the number one problem we face getting the attention of new fans is that our sport has no stars.



-jp

.

[Bruddah]

First, I was asked if Oaklawn's management could run 3 meets better than present NYRA management. My answer was, if they had the same population base...Yes. Then I was told, I avoided the answer, I next said Hell YES based on 103 years of marketing and teaching the sport to younger generations (in their region.)

Here is something you just can't seem to grasp. Oaklawn's management team has been focused and consistent with a business model for the last 50 years. They are there to make a profit. They don't squander money like the NYRA. Face the Facts, the NYRA business model and New York politics is why a World Class Racing Product (New York Thoroughbred Racing) has become crap sliding down hill.

Oaklawn mgmt. realized they must keep older customers loyal and coming back for an ANNUAL EVENT. They also realized they needed to educate and create loyalty from a new generation...(every year.) They have done this better than any track, in the nation, over the same time frame of the last 50 years.

Here is a clue for all other track management. Treat the fan like a valued member of the equation. Do it with a focused and consistent business plan. Make every effort to treat the fan as if he/she were a very valued CUSTOMER. Educate younger/new fans to the sport of Kings.

[Bruddah]

This is the type of post which I was looking for initially. At least before I allowed myself to be side tracked in a regional p*ss*ng contest. :jump:

[point given]

I wouldn't do away with any of the three tracks. I have always loved winter racing in NY, and Saratoga is a jewel in the Thoroughbred world. Belmont is awesome in the spring and fall. What is there to get rid of?

All of the meets continue to generate big handle. The problem is the conditions under which the NYRA franchise is required to be operated by law, and that's not a discussion meant for this particular thread.

Do you want to know what the single greatest thing "wrong" with racing is? DRUGS and CHEATS (two things actually, but they go hand in hand).

DRUGS and CHEATS are the two things that can drive a player away from this game faster than you can say "OAKLAWN RULES!"

If a person is a losing player, and he or she believes that he CAN'T IMPROVE HIS GAME ENOUGH TO BECOME A WINNING PLAYER, because of the real (or perceived) use of illegal DRUGS by owners, trainers & vets, well then, you will have a major crisis on your hands in no time.

They have to clean up this sport's image in terms of cheating trainers. Uniform NATIONAL medication rules are a MUST. Harsh, uniform, NATIONAL PENALTIES are a MUST for the lawbreakers! The NTRA needs to step up and take control. Sadly, they have little power to do so because each track or group of tracks is its own little fiefdom.

I personally wish everyone would go back to way NYRA used to operate - no race day medications whatsoever. Not only would this do away with the potential masking effects of Lasix, etc., but it would go a long way towards building a STRONGER BREED of Thoroughbred - thus LESS BREAKDOWNS, another potential FAN KILLER.

I better end this post now....:lol:

monticello drugs article to support your premise :eek:

http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070218/SPORTS/702180350/-1/SPORTS0304

[fmhealth]

Jeff, your point about having "Stars" is certainly an interesting one. I'd like to take this a bit further & toss-out the novel idea that winning players should really be the focal point of a major mkting effort. They are truly, the stars of this game that all of us embrace so dearly.

Here's just one example. There's a relatively new poster on this board. His name is "Boomer". Now I've personally spoken with this gentlman a few times. Actually once while he was about to call a race at YAV. Downs. He put me on hold & I listened intently to a glorious call of what was probaly a $3,500 claimer. Sounded like the KD to me!

My point is that Boomer is also a winning player as well as author of a number of valuable 'capping books. My conversations with him have enlightened me & actually been very provacative. He could be someone, once again amoung numerous others, that fans could relate too. He MAKES MONEY AT THE TRACK. I've been at this game since I've been 13. That's 48 consecutive losing years. Yet I was facinated by his precepts and grasp of the cogent points of 'capping.

My point, people relate to people. Highlight winning players. Discuss some of their methods. Feature them at seminars at various tracks. Let these folks become stars. I truly believe that this would have a material impact on the sport.

[skate]

i do not disagree with anything said on the drug and cheat issues. however, i do not find a problem with racing.

sure, have controls.

i must go back to what i call, 'it is not only a racing issue'. this problem exist everywhere and to much more of a financial concern than it does in racing.

you cant name a business that does not entitle cheating.

it is the implied significance that i object. what do you think the fans from outside "the everyday crowd" are thinking when 'You' the player keep harping , whithout facts being clarified?

[boomman]

Scott: Thanks for the kind words, and it is nice to know that my enthusiasm and love for our sport is recognized. I agree with you and Jeff that every successful sport has superstars, and especially with his analogy about Tiger Woods, because as a non-golfer, I can state unequivocably that Tiger is the reason that I watch golf. So, the answer probably lies in several areas: It is a problem that so many famous jockeys have retired recently, so we must create new stars in the current jockey colonies and of course, horses seem to retire before they're 4 years old, so it's difficult to create lasting stars of the horses. But we must try, as all the evidence of the outpouring of affection for Barbaro would suggest. And I promise you that I will continue to reach out to new race fans as an ambassador of our sport and would welcome that opportunity anytime and anywhere to promote our "game".

Thanks again,

Boomer

[PaceAdvantage]

Here is something you just can't seem to grasp. Oaklawn's management team has been focused and consistent with a business model for the last 50 years. They are there to make a profit. They don't squander money like the NYRA. Face the Facts, the NYRA business model and New York politics is why a World Class Racing Product (New York Thoroughbred Racing) has become crap sliding down hill.

I don't really understand your obsession with NYRA, but let's keep at it for a bit. NYRA has been in existence under the SAME BUSINESS MODEL for over FIFTY years. You just stated that NY Racing has become crap sliding down hill (this implies that it has recently become crap).

If the business model is the same as it was 50 years ago, why all of a sudden is it crap sliding down hill? Did it take 50 years for a faulty business model to suddenly expose itself? Or are there other reasons you are discounting, or more likely, not realizing?

If anyone is turning this debate into some sort of regional pissing contest, it seems to be you Bruddah. Either that, or you're doing a hell of a job keeping the wheel pointed in that direction.....

[Indulto]

Anybody criticizing or making fun of New York racing politics should read the following official document from California. If you can’t force yourself to read all 128 pages, at least browse through it to find topics you may find enlightening and/or entertaining. I have no comment at this time, but I'd sure like to hear KW's take on it.

CHRB 01/23/07 Board Meeting Transcript http://www.chrb.ca.gov/board_meeting_transcripts/TRANSCRIPT%2001-23-07.pdf (http://www.chrb.ca.gov/board_meeting_transcripts/TRANSCRIPT%2001-23-07.pdf)

[Bruddah]

If you notice, I indicated Oaklawn's business model was to make a profit. In doing so, the focus of Oaklawn Management was to include a continual satisfaction of the customer, in their model. A profit reason for keeping the customer satisfied and ATTENDING. I don't think this has been the objective of the NYRA at any point. They (NYRA) has squandered more resouces than Carter has peanuts. I noticed you didn't mention New York Politics, so I won't rub another sore spot for you.

The average fan of New York State racing, allowed the sub par Track conditions to increase, because they had an options to go to the nearest sub par OTB, or to bet on line at home. New Yorkers, for the most part, seem to have chosen "on line betting". Therefore, less ATTENDANCE at the tracks. With the exception of Saratoga, New Yorkers have allowed the racing and facilities of their tracks to worsen because they weren't in ATTENDANCE at the track. At Saratoga, racing fans are not willing to accept it, because they want to ATTEND the EVENT. Operative word being ATTEND. You see when the fans ATTEND, they expect and deserve a higher standard. If they don't receive those standards, then the EVENT goes away and becomes crap going down hill. i.e Aqu, Bel,

Fortunately, for New York racing, New Yorkers will be ATTENDTING the tracks once again. Under a new business strategy, which will require a profit, making the customer an itegral part of the equation and their ATTENDANCE imperative.

If you can't see the difference between these business models, then you insist on wearing blinkers. I will have led you to water but you refuse to drink. :bang:

[alysheba88]

The quality of racing and handle in NY blows away Oaklawn. Not even a fair comparison

The simulcast offtrack player is the one footing the bills for racing.

There is no other way to say this without coming across snobby but I will say it anyway. There are a few more options in NY for the entertainment dollar than Arkansas (the live racing point).

[Lefty]

Nothing wrong with racing. It's just changed. In CA there are many outlets to bet aside from going to the trk. Prob same in Ny. OP a tourist meeting and prob people go there specifically for the horse meet and the hot baths. Handles are generally up while attendance down most venues. Things change...

[The Judge]

Here is the truth as I see it . Some tracks have increasing on track handle and some trackes don't. As members of the sport I would perfer tracks that you give me a break . How is possible to learn to win accept at the track. So you can sit there and make as much money as you can. You can talk to yourself. I say you must go to the track period and Im not hurt that because

You must go to the track. This is the church

[Tom]

Good point, Lefty. I am playing FAR more than I ever used to, and go to the track itself virtually never. In the last year, I hit Saratoga two days and Fnger Lakes two days. I plan to cut back this year.:rolleyes:

Going to a track is just not a fun day. Nothing the will ever do will get me back, short of topless bimbos schlepping free beers and blowing on my....tickets for luck!:eek:

[The Judge]

You must go to the track to be saved. I will stop there and won't say it again. The track is the church.

[NYPlayer]

If you notice, I indicated Oaklawn's business model was to make a profit. In doing so, the focus of Oaklawn Management was to include a continual satisfaction of the customer, in their model. A profit reason for keeping the customer satisfied and ATTENDING. I don't think this has been the objective of the NYRA at any point. They (NYRA) has squandered more resouces than Carter has peanuts. I noticed you didn't mention New York Politics, so I won't rub another sore spot for you.

The average fan of New York State racing, allowed the sub par Track conditions to increase, because they had an options to go to the nearest sub par OTB, or to bet on line at home. New Yorkers, for the most part, seem to have chosen "on line betting". Therefore, less ATTENDANCE at the tracks. With the exception of Saratoga, New Yorkers have allowed the racing and facilities of their tracks to worsen because they weren't in ATTENDANCE at the track. At Saratoga, racing fans are not willing to accept it, because they want to ATTEND the EVENT. Operative word being ATTEND. You see when the fans ATTEND, they expect and deserve a higher standard. If they don't receive those standards, then the EVENT goes away and becomes crap going down hill. i.e Aqu, Bel,

Fortunately, for New York racing, New Yorkers will be ATTENDTING the tracks once again. Under a new business strategy, which will require a profit, making the customer an itegral part of the equation and their ATTENDANCE imperative.

If you can't see the difference between these business models, then you insist on wearing blinkers. I will have led you to water but you refuse to drink. :bang:

It's generally accepted in the racing industry that the gambling product offered is not as popular as it once was. That's mostly due to there being so many other legal ways to gamble, and slots are very popular at the casinos.

That being said, the casinos have managed to build a broader entertainment experience by selling complimentary products such as dining, theatre, and hotel services. I doubt LV would be quite as attractive a tourist destination if they didn't have the extravangant hotels and other entertainment. I think the tracks need to adopt a similar approach.

In NY city, even few regular players are actually going to the track, especially aqueduct. Unless you're going to the Equestris Restaurant, the place has all the ambiance of a high school cafeteria. Why should I go there when I can go to one of the OTB restaurants or cafe's and take in the races in more genteel comfort? Some of the LI OTB's such as the Race Palace are also very nice. Sure you spend a little more money, but a lot players find the modest expense worthwhile.

Basically, I fault NYRA for not recognizing these trends. They've managed the racing end of things pretty well, but things have to change in order for their to be any kind of recovery for racing in this state.

[PaceAdvantage]

Under NYRA's franchise restrictions, how were they supposed to build casino-like attractions? Where is that money supposed to come from, thin air?

If you're going to criticize the last 50+ years of NYRA, at least acknowledge that over that half century, they have been operating under restraints that no other corporation could have flourished under....that's the way they were set up from the beginning, and that's the way the politicians kept things.

And of course, over the last few years, nothing was going to get done, as any extra money they may have had to spend on improvements got sucked out the window in lawyer fees defending themselves against Spitzer & Co.

Should this thread be re-titled "What's wrong with NYRA" instead of "What's wrong with racing?" Let's pick on another region for a change of pace.

[Bruddah]

First you argue that the NYRA business model was superior for 50 years, then you argue they just couldn't compete because of being Non profit. Trying to argue both sides in Favor of the NYRA makes you seem less than knowledgable and more regionally biased.
Are you or any of your family, friends involved with the NYRA. I think this is where your prejudice lies. (JMHO)

Face it. A flawed non-profit business model can not compete and leads to crap flow9ing down hill. :)

[dukeofperl]

It may have something to do with the general cost of a day at the track ...

Money for gas to get there, $2-$5 for parking, ditto at the turnstile, a fin for the DRF, $7 for a coke and dog. You're down $25 before the toteboard even comes into view.

Double that amount if you take the fam.

[boomman]

Duke wrote: It may have something to do with the general cost of a day at the track ...

Money for gas to get there, $2-$5 for parking, ditto at the turnstile, a fin for the DRF, $7 for a coke and dog. You're down $25 before the toteboard even comes into view.

Double that amount if you take the fam.

Duke: You are absolutely right, and that's why the track that I work at, (Yavapai Downs in Prescott Valley, AZ) draws pretty well...We NEVER charge for parking, only charge $2 on the weekend and have free admission for live racing on Mondays and Tuesdays as well as free admission for simulcasting during our dark days. When I'm on the west coast in the summer time I occasionally enjoy going to Del Mar, and although it is a beautiful venue and a great place to attend the races, it is the epitamy of what you're talking about, as I'm sure some of the prices do scare "newbies" off, especially folks that want to bring the entire family....You pay $5 to park your car ($15 if you want to be within a couple of blocks from the track in Valet) $3 admission (much higher for clubhouse and turf club etc) and even though that does include a program, by the time you pick up DRF, have a deli sandwich and a beer, it sets you back a minimum of $25 a person, and some people simply can't afford that! Tracks need to give fans coming to the track as many price breaks as they can! You gotta get 'em there before we can make race fans out of them!

Boomer

[kingfin66]

Boomman,

Can't Mark in the credentials office help you out with a pass? Don't tell me they would make you pay!

[NYPlayer]

Under NYRA's franchise restrictions, how were they supposed to build casino-like attractions? Where is that money supposed to come from, thin air?

If you're going to criticize the last 50+ years of NYRA, at least acknowledge that over that half century, they have been operating under restraints that no other corporation could have flourished under....that's the way they were set up from the beginning, and that's the way the politicians kept things.

And of course, over the last few years, nothing was going to get done, as any extra money they may have had to spend on improvements got sucked out the window in lawyer fees defending themselves against Spitzer & Co.

Should this thread be re-titled "What's wrong with NYRA" instead of "What's wrong with racing?" Let's pick on another region for a change of pace.

I'm not criticizing them for what they did in years past, but a lot changes in 50 years. Sure, they had restrictions, but what were they doing about that? Did they ever make any kind of Racino proposal and ask for the money? Sure it costs money, and there's got a man called Stronach who has ideas and is willing to put his money on the table. I don't think that Magna should own NYRA, but any potential owner/operator should press for liberal rules as to how they can run their business, and look to draw revenue from a wide variety of sources. Both Exelsior and Empire have plans to do this.

[skate]

You must go to the track to be saved. I will stop there and won't say it again. The track is the church.

And, not the religion

[boomman]

kingfin wrote:

Boomman,

Can't Mark in the credentials office help you out with a pass? Don't tell me they would make you pay!

King: I guess he probably would if I asked, but my point was is the amount it costs the public before they even get in their seats...Thanks for the suggestion, though!

Boomer

[kingfin66]

I know Boom and your point is well taken. Del Mar has got to be an expensive track to operate. I suppose the big question with any track in deciding whether to charge or not charge for things such as parking and admission is whether the extra revenue generated from additional takeout and concessions will offset the lost revenue from the other things.

[boomman]

Kingfin wrote:the big question with any track in deciding whether to charge or not charge for things such as parking and admission is whether the extra revenue generated from additional takeout and concessions will offset the lost revenue from the other things......

King: I couldn't agree more with your point, but in the DelMar case, they could set a precedent of lowering parking and concession costs, and it wouldn't hurt them a bit! Remember, their AVG mutuel handle is in the 10's of millions of dollars daily. I do know however, they have a situation where the Fair Board is in charge of the parking (I believe) so it may be something a little more difficult for the track to change...But if the smaller tracks like mine that have less handle revenue can lower admission fees and offer free parking, you would certainly think the larger tracks should consider following suit, and I'm sure that Duke is correct in his thinking that this would make a positive difference!

Boomer

[dukeofperl]

Duke: You are absolutely right, and that's why the track that I work at, (Yavapai Downs in Prescott Valley, AZ) draws pretty well...

I'll be a patron at Yavapai this coming season. I bought a house last year in Prescott Valley and will be spending the summers there ... a break from the Phoneix heat.

I used to go to the old Prescott Downs years ago ... what a place, it was nearly falling apart to the tune they sometimes they couldn't find a company to insure them for the meet ... but I always enjoyed it there -- lots of fun watching the jockeys hang on for dear life going into that clubhouse turn.

I did pretty good there also ... miss the place.

[dukeofperl]

I spend a lot of time in the San Diego area (Escondido, Rancho Bernardo, etc) ... often as much as a year at a time and I rarely go to Del Mar and when I do end up in that area, it's for a day at the beach :). That whole area from Oceanside to Encinitas to Solana to Del Mar to Pacific to Mission to ..... is a total mess IMHO. Beautiful, but a mess.

Traffic can be horrific, parking for anything is tough (unless you know the tricks) and as already pointed out ... prices are sky high for everything.

One thing in Del Mar's favor ... the So. Cal. racing patrons are pretty layed-back folks and they put up with the high cost ... probably because they're numb from being generally beat-up with the high cost of living accross the board.

[Steve 'StatMan']

You must go to the track to be saved. I will stop there and won't say it again. The track is the church.

Heck, people overall aren't attending the churches like they used to either!

(Whole, separate issue and off topic, and there are notable exceptions - enough on subject)

[PaceAdvantage]

First you argue that the NYRA business model was superior for 50 years,

I never once argued this. How could anyone argue this? It's as obvious as the nose on your face that the business model forced upon NY racing upon its creation is quite flawed.

Please, point out the sentences where I state that the NYRA business model was superior for 50 years. I'd love to see how I made such an error.

[Light]

It really doesnt matter that there were 21,000 people at OP and 3,000 at AQU. There are reasons for this(like 14 degree weather) and it is a redundant issue. As far as OP vs NYRA or SA again that is regionalizing.There's no right or wrong. Personal preference. The issues troubling the industry has nothing to do with these matters.

[boomman]

Duke wrote: I'll be a patron at Yavapai this coming season. I bought a house last year in Prescott Valley and will be spending the summers there ... a break from the Phoneix heat.


Duke: Be sure and look me up! I'll look forward to meeting you!


Boomer

[dukeofperl]

Duke wrote: I'll be a patron at Yavapai this coming season. I bought a house last year in Prescott Valley and will be spending the summers there ... a break from the Phoneix heat.


Duke: Be sure and look me up! I'll look forward to meeting you!


Boomer

Will do Boomer.

[Blackiee]

I disagree with the comments about Oaklawn Park valuing their long time horse racing fans. I live in Hot Springs and an Oaklawn regular; Oaklawn Park is treating its horse racing customers as 2nd class customers. They have done a terrible job in their conversion of becoming a “Racino” and are mostly concerned with their electronic gaming and their electronic gaming customers. They have kicked the horseplayers out of the paddock area to expand the gaming room, OP could have put the electronic gaming anywhere in their large facility, but they chose to kick the horseplayers out of the paddock area and put the electronic gaming by the front door.



Also Oaklawn Park has a player reward program for its electronic gaming customers offering cash back, food discounts, giving away trips and cars. Oaklawn Park has chosen to exclude its longtime horse racing customers from their player reward program. Just go to their website and you can see that this is true. Oaklawn Park doesn’t include horseplayers in their player loyalty program because Oaklawn Park doesn’t have any loyalty to its longtime horse racing fans that have filled its stands.

[Pace Cap'n]

Wow, hate to hear that. I always thought the indoor paddock viewing area was the essence of the charm of Oaklawn.