Beyer on Gulfstream

[cj]

The King speaks out:

...whenever I walk through the track that used to be my favorite in the world, I wonder if horse racing has made a deal with the devil.

Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/07/AR2007020702077.html?sub=AR)

[Tote Master]

CJ
Beyer on Gulfstream

The King speaks out:You must be joking! Right? King?
As an avid speed handicapper at the time, I personally and openly dethroned Mr. Beyer’s in June of 1977 when he declared to the Belmont crowd that, “Slew was a one-dimensional speed horse and would not win the Triple Crown”. He didn’t follow his own preaching then, and to this day his rhetoric may sound picture perfect to some, but in reality it’s all a bunch of hype. To me he’s simply the “Howard Cosell” of horse racing. The attraction he generates to himself is simply by being controversial.
I feel for those who follow this guru!

[blind squirrel]

The King speaks out:



Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/07/AR2007020702077.html?sub=AR)
yeah,i read it,although i like BEYER this is hardly a "revelation".I went
to PRARIE MEADOWS in '95,came back to KY and told a friend:"i've seen
the future of racing",it's slots....and racing will get steamrolled".

[JustRalph]

no matter what you think of Beyer's speed figs............ he is the only one with the nuts to write on behalf of horse players. over the last few years I have appreciated him writing on drugs and excessive takeout and taxes.

The numbers are one thing. His take on the other stuff I appreciate.

[thaskalos]

Andy Beyer provides his speed figures to the DRF for what we must assume to be a hefty fee. Consequently, it would be more profitable for him to be silent when it came to the sport's more controversial issues, since it is to his financial best interest to have the game free from any negative publicity which might weaken its customer base in any way. However, the man's integrity is so great that he is often the lone voice exposing the injustices in our sport. Read the following excerpt from a recent Washington Post column, and tell me if anyone but Andy Beyer would have the guts to write something like this:

"If the winner of one of America's important races came back with a positive drug test, I would say with confidence that the offence would never be made public. Racing fans have long suspected that many offenses are dealt with quietly, behind the scenes, to avoid a public scandal. Some of those suspicions were confirmed by a 2004 report by Blood-Horse Magazine on the California Horse Racing Board. When horses of prominent trainers tested positive for illegal drugs, the board handled the cases privately, administering fines that often amounted to a slap on the wrist and never suspended an offender. Racing's regulators seem more concerned about avoiding bad publicity than exposing cheaters."

[Tom]

So when will the "Totes" be replacing the "Beyers" in DRf? :lol::lol::lol:

[the little guy]

You must be joking! Right? King?
As an avid speed handicapper at the time, I personally and openly dethroned Mr. Beyer’s in June of 1977 when he declared to the Belmont crowd that, “Slew was a one-dimensional speed horse and would not win the Triple Crown”. He didn’t follow his own preaching then, and to this day his rhetoric may sound picture perfect to some, but in reality it’s all a bunch of hype. To me he’s simply the “Howard Cosell” of horse racing. The attraction he generates to himself is simply by being controversial.
I feel for those who follow this guru!


Yeah, what an idiot. He picked against a 2:5 shot and was wrong. The guy is clearly a moron.

Just to be clear, since obviously you don't know this, Beyer was following figs then, which is why he picked against Seattle Slew. Slew did not run fast numbers until the Fall of his 4YO year. Every speed figure player from back then knows that.

[PlanB]

Little Guy, are you a player or just a net know-it-all?

[classhandicapper]

Just to be clear, since obviously you don't know this, Beyer was following figs then, which is why he picked against Seattle Slew. Slew did not run fast numbers until the Fall of his 4YO year. Every speed figure player from back then knows that.

I always thought that speed figure handicappers that didn't like Slew at 3 were missing the point. Even Steve Davidowitz criticized Andy a bit for not appreciating Slew's performances in the Triple Crown.

He had a horrible trip (Derby), faced some fast paces (Derby and Preakness), and won with vast amounts of speed in reserve in some of his other performances.

I loved him back then, but I appreciate his ability at 3 a lot more now than I did back then because I understand the game better. I can't think of too many front runners I'd want to back in the Derby after getting left at the start, rushing up and bulling their way through a big field, and then getting used on the lead against one of the other contenders for a mile. Even if the race came back slow, it was a big performance.

[the little guy]

Little Guy, are you a player or just a net know-it-all?

I don't know, how much does one need to bet to be a " player "?

[blind squirrel]

Little Guy, are you a player or just a net know-it-all?

a player.i am pretty sure he is a regular on the seminars at SARATOGA with
HARVEY, wrong a lot,but always entertaining.

[PlanB]

LOL just as I expected. $2 across the board, but only after 6 hrs of analyses. That's how I see you as a player.

[the little guy]

To be honest, while I loved the game back then, I can't say my opinion would be particularly valid. I do remember him breaking slowly, and making the daring move up the rail in the Derby, and let's face it....any horse that won ten straight with Jean Cruget had to be some kind of monster!

I would guess that your points are valid, in that his figs were somewhat overemphasized, but he still improved when Cordero got aboard. When he and Dr. Patches faced off at the Meadowlands, which Patches obviously won, both had run in allowance races at Saratoga, and their figs were at least roughly equivalent.

[the little guy]

a player.i am pretty sure he is a regular on the seminars at SARATOGA with
HARVEY, wrong a lot,but always entertaining.

All horseplayers are wrong a lot.

[the little guy]

LOL just as I expected. $2 across the board, but only after 6 hrs of analyses. That's how I see you as a player.


I see your one of those macho guys that somehow think amounts wagered correspond to some sort of pathetic macho bravado. Congratulations.

Since you seem to want to match yours against mine, and seem quite sure yours is bigger, I imagine your handle must be fairly substantial. Congratulations once again. I just hope your handicapping of horses is better than your handicapping of my handle. Sadly for you it is another thing of mine bigger than yours.

[classhandicapper]

To be honest, while I loved the game back then, I can't say my opinion would be particularly valid. I do remember him breaking slowly, and making the daring move up the rail in the Derby, and let's face it....any horse that won ten straight with Jean Cruget had to be some kind of monster!

I would guess that your points are valid, in that his figs were somewhat overemphasized, but he still improved when Cordero got aboard. When he and Dr. Patches faced off at the Meadowlands, which Patches obviously won, both had run in allowance races at Saratoga, and their figs were at least roughly equivalent.

Cruget :lol:

Don't remind me about that DR. Patches race. I think I lost sleep that night. I was a big Slew fan. ;)

[bigmack]

tlg - I rather enjoy your discourse on that Sirius radio program. You impressively make your points in a welcome, pellucid fashion and I tip my hat to you. Having someone like yourself speaking about the industry is good thing.

I'm sticking my nose into that Expo come early March at The Wynn and note you're on the panel Re: Supertrainers: Who They Are, What They Do, How to Cope. I'm fairly sure I know who they are and what they do. Will the "how to cope" portion have anything to do with pulling hair out of my head?

As I sport a fetching dew, it's one of my greatest fears.

All the Best.

[the little guy]

Thanks. I appreciate the kind words.

Yeah, I'm struggling a bit with the " how to cope " part myself, and I think I may have to steal your " pulling my hair out " line.

Hopefully I'll see you at the Expo. Please say hi if you get a chance.

[CryingForTheHorses]

The King speaks out:



Washington Post article (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/07/AR2007020702077.html?sub=AR)


Talk about a guy who doesnt want/like change!!...1st thing wrong is there is NOW a open air saddling paddock..I see he didnt put that in.Lots of places to sit in the sun,Lots of places to get eats and I have never had a problem watching horses run from the grandstand apron or the huge teletron.Walk into the place and you have more tv monitors all around. As far as Im concerned BEYER seems to think he needs to bash Mr Stronach to sound important in the WASHINGTON POST.

[classhandicapper]

Yeah, I'm struggling a bit with the " how to cope " part myself

Last November I looked at every horse in NY with a trainer change in 2006 to anyone I suspected was using more than hay and oats. I found a few things that were profitable both long/short term. I started playing a small amount of money on each horse that fit that pattern ($25 to win) to get my feet wet.

In December I made a $248.60 profit on $125 worth of bets. 3 for 5

In Jan/Feb I am in the hole $81.25 on $250 in bets. 2 for 10

I intend to keep betting and refining what I am doing, but I'm not going to bet a lot unless I feel confident I can show long term profits. I think I have the right approch though. You have to study their strengths and weaknesses.

[the little guy]

I struggle with trends. In the old days of Oscar and Ferriola it seemed there were trends that really worked, like Oscar was great off very short rest and a turnback. However, these days it seems like there is a certain amount of randomness to things. Mostly, whatever people are using gets like one or two big races out of a horse followed by either a rapid degeneration in form or a disappearance.

The old cheaters were simply a lot savvier!

[rrbauer]

The old cheaters were simply a lot savvier!


and blatant!

[rrbauer]

Talk about a guy who doesnt want/like change!!...1st thing wrong is there is NOW a open air saddling paddock..I see he didnt put that in.Lots of places to sit in the sun,Lots of places to get eats and I have never had a problem watching horses run from the grandstand apron or the huge teletron.Walk into the place and you have more tv monitors all around. As far as Im concerned BEYER seems to think he needs to bash Mr Stronach to sound important in the WASHINGTON POST.

I'm wondering, Tom, if you could give us your take on Gulfstream from a trainer's perspective as far as both the back side and the front side are concerned. Also, the training facilities, PMM and PBD.

Thanks.

[Tom]

... and I have never had a problem watching horses run from the grandstand apron...

How close do you get to the teletimer beams? :lol:;)

[classhandicapper]

I struggle with trends.

I tend to focus mostly on trainer changes.

The one other thing I understand now that I didn't appreciate years ago is that there's a lot of value in identifying a situation where you know a horse is very likely to run well. The typical favorite probably only fires his expected performance 60% of the time (plus or minus). So if you identify a situation where the trainer's horse is 80% or so to fire a big shot, not only are you going to win when he's best, you are going to win a lot when the better horses don't fire. I think that's one of the keys to the high win percentages some of these guys get. When they get hot, everything is running.

[Cratos]

You can knock Andy Beyer’s speed figs (at least I do), but you can’t doubt his passion for the game of horseracing and his journalistic talent to express that passion with very eloquent discourse in his writings.

[Tote Master]

Just Ralph
no matter what you think of Beyer's speed figs............ he is the only one with the nuts to write on behalf of horse players. over the last few years I have appreciated him writing on drugs and excessive takeout and taxes.
The numbers are one thing. His take on the other stuff I appreciate.
Cratos
You can knock Andy Beyer’s speed figs (at least I do), but you can’t doubt his passion for the game of horseracing and his journalistic talent to express that passion with very eloquent discourse in his writings I think many appreciate him as writer of this sport. As with the majority of us in this game, we are all very opinionated. That’s what makes for controversy and any form of media just eats that up.
Tom
So when will the "Totes" be replacing the "Beyers" in DRf?Not in my lifetime! Besides they’re a lot more dynamic and much too valuable as far as I'm concerned to be made public.
The Little Guy
Yeah, what an idiot. He picked against a 2:5 shot and was wrong. The guy is clearly a moron.

Just to be clear, since obviously you don't know this, Beyer was following figs then, which is why he picked against Seattle Slew. Slew did not run fast numbers until the Fall of his 4YO year. Every speed figure player from back then knows that.
PlanB
Little Guy, are you a player or just a net know-it-all?I'm not quite sure either, PlanB!?
I’m not sure if you were there, but Beyer never mentioned looking at Slew’s Belmont as a betting race at all. He picked another because he firmly believed Slew would never carry his speed for 1 ½ miles. He did the same thing with War Emblem years later in the Derby.

Well, well Every speed figure player from back then” knew that Slew did not run fast numbers until the Fall of his 4YO year You MUST be joking! Right? I’m not sure what speed figs you were using, but perhaps you missed Slews' breaking of the Champagne Stakes record as a 2-YEAR OLD! A record that stood for 20 years or more! For some of the speed boys at least, it gave us just small inkling of what was in store. We certainly didn’t have to wait until 4 to know what was in our midst!

[the little guy]

Yawn.

[the little guy]

I'm not quite sure either, PlanB!?
I’m not sure if you were there, but Beyer never mentioned looking at Slew’s Belmont as a betting race at all. He picked another because he firmly believed Slew would never carry his speed for 1 ½ miles. He did the same thing with War Emblem years later in the Derby.

Well, well You MUST be joking! Right? I’m not sure what speed figs you were using, but perhaps you missed Slews' breaking of the Champagne Stakes record as a 2-YEAR OLD! A record that stood for 20 years or more! For some of the speed boys at least, it gave us just small inkling of what was in store. We certainly didn’t have to wait until 4 to know what was in our midst!


There is so much nonsensical redboarding in your posts it's hard to know where to begin. However, aligning yourself with the frequently ( and recently ) dismissed PlanB is quite telling.

So, let me get this straight.......Beyer disliking Slew in the Belmont and then 25 years later the twenty or more to one War Emblem in the Kentucky Derby is an example of....what? That he was a poor judge on those two occasions of the distance limitations of a couple of winners? Oh my God, nobody has ever done that before! Next thing you are going to tell us is that you heard he had a losing day or two at the racetrack over that same time span.

As for your disclosure that the " speed boys ", in which you graciously included yourself, figured out that Seattle Slew was the real deal after the Champagne, I will offer the following astounding information.....

....after winning the Champagne, Slew made three starts before his Triple Crown sweep, an allowance at Hialeah where he paid $2.20, the Flamingo where he returned $2.40 and the Wood Memorial where he returned to 1:10 and paid $2.20. His odds zoomed to a whopping 1:2 for the 15 horse Kentucky Derby where he ballooned to a $3 mutual!

I would have to say that a few more people than you and the speed boys seemed to have figured out what we were " in store " for as concerns the immortal Seattle Slew. I just hope you didn't blow the entire wad you earned on him when he failed dramatically in his very next start after Beyer disgraced himself in the Belmont....the Swaps Stakes where he failed to hit the board at 2:5. Let me guess, there was some very suspicious tote activity on JO Tobin, and specifically the JO Tobin-Affiliate exacta, and you scored out!

Congratulations once again are most certainly in order.

[Tote Master]

The Litte Guy
There is so much nonsensical redboarding in your posts it's hard to know where to begin. However, aligning yourself with the frequently ( and recently ) dismissed PlanB is quite telling. Oh really! Well apparently the truth hurts! I simply asked the same question, based on your ridiculous statements.

The Litte Guy
So, let me get this straight.......Beyer disliking Slew in the Belmont and then 25 years later the twenty or more to one War Emblem in the Kentucky Derby is an example of....what? That he was a poor judge on those two occasions of the distance limitations of a couple of winners? Oh my God, nobody has ever done that before! Next thing you are going to tell us is that you heard he had a losing day or two at the racetrack over that same time span. Those were only 2 examples of MAYBE practicing what you preach. Supporting your own beliefs publicly just might offer a bit more credibility to some of that writing! I could reel off many others, but I’m not interested in diminishing such a legend. (At least in your mind)
The Litte Guy
As for your disclosure that the " speed boys ", in which you graciously included yourself, figured out that Seattle Slew was the real deal after the Champagne, I will offer the following astounding information...Based on your statement regarding the knowledge of “Speed” I would have to say that if you knew as much as I’ve (thankfully) forgotten you would had never made such a statement. Especially after all these years of improving your game.
The Litte Guy
....after winning the Champagne, Slew made three starts before his Triple Crown sweep, an allowance at Hialeah where he paid $2.20, the Flamingo where he returned $2.40 and the Wood Memorial where he returned to 1:10 and paid $2.20. His odds zoomed to a whopping 1:2 for the 15 horse Kentucky Derby where he ballooned to a $3 mutual!

I would have to say that a few more people than you and the speed boys seemed to have figured out what we were " in store " for as concerns the immortal Seattle Slew. I just hope you didn't blow the entire wad you earned on him when he failed dramatically in his very next start after Beyer disgraced himself in the Belmont....the Swaps Stakes where he failed to hit the board at 2:5. Let me guess, there was some very suspicious tote activity on JO Tobin, and specifically the JO Tobin-Affiliate exacta, and you scored out!

Congratulations once again are most certainly in order.Instead of all this side-stepping rhetoric about a great animal that none of us were interested in making money on (because obviously the Value wasn’t there), why did you conveniently evade trying to defend your original statement? Which is what this is all about!
The Litte Guy
Every speed figure player from back then” knew that Slew did not run fast numbers until the Fall of his 4YO year I’ll tell you why! It was BS, and you know it!

[Bruddah]

To critisize another player for backing a losing position on a horse or race, is like looking into a mirror and seeing one's own future. All of us, whether amateur or "pro" bet more loosing positions than winners. The difference with Mr Beyer is, he is on Public record. The rest of us get to "Reboard" and pontificate (blow hard) after the fact.

I don't have to agree with another persons opinion, but I should always listen. I have cashed many more winning tickets by listening, than by arguing and trying to make another look like a fool. Especially, before the race has run.

I see no reason for Andy Beyer, the little guy (tlg), or any other personna to explain their reasons for taking a Public position on a horse or race. As for the rest of us, take a Public stand or 'SHUT YOUR YAPPER'. Redboarding is not allowed. :mad:

[Cratos]

Betting on horseracing through pari-mutuel wagering is not about taking a “public stand.” Odds in pari-mutuel wagering through an open tote change because bettors “exploit” each other because the bettors take a “private stand.”

In an earlier post within this thread I said I am a fan of Andy Beyer with respect to his advocacy for better horseracing and his journalistic skills. But his speed figure methodology leaves much to be desired.

[Tom]

I find it absolutley the funniest thread when a known BLOWHARD who has never backed up single thing he claimed trying to tell a personal friend of Beyer's what he did and did not do 20 years ago! :lol:

Is this guy related to MONTY BANKS of what? :lol::lol::lol:

[the little guy]

Believe me, I appreciate your sense of humor. I mean, honestly, you are one clever guy. It is glaringly apparent from the hilarity that you post here that your actual interest in horseplaying is, at best, minimal, yet you have gone WAY out of your way to design a mysterious persona with the purpose of screwing around with the serious players of the site. Oh, believe me, I get it and like you I understand that a little levity goes a long way towards alleviating the pressures of a game that perhaps many of us take too seriously.

And, by the way, the " I forgot more about this game than you'll ever know " is a touch that I just loved! Where do you come up with this stuff? " Don't handicap....just bet the horses and combinations that take money ". Keep up the good work.....I'm literally in stitches.