I'm shocked, more cheating from Dutrow

[cj]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/82518.html

According to Carmine Donofrio, the NYSRWB steward, Dutrow was found to have had contact with his barn help during the time he was serving a 60-day suspension in the spring and summer of 2005. Trainers on suspension are forbidden from contacting their assistants.

14 days, what a joke.

[blind squirrel]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/82518.html



14 days, what a joke.


gee,do you think TODD PLETCHER ever talked to his help?
why do they even ban this guys?.

[kenwoodallpromos]

+ $25k.

[john del riccio]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/82518.html



14 days, what a joke.

I love this quote

“I’ve brought 150 owners to New York and they keep harassing me. I guess they’ve got their reasons."

....and if those owners ever knew what he was REALLY doing there would be a linching.

John

[JimG]

Maybe horse racing needs a commissioner with absolute authority, a la baseball. Strict policies need to be laid down for known cheaters. Time to clean up this "sport" before it is too late to do any good.

[JustRalph]

Maybe horse racing needs a commissioner with absolute authority, a la baseball. Strict policies need to be laid down for known cheaters. Time to clean up this "sport" before it is too late to do any good.

this was a big topic on the "at the races" show that was posted here

I would love to hear more calls for this type of setup.

[PaceAdvantage]

....and if those owners ever knew what he was REALLY doing there would be a linching.

I find statements like this difficult to ignore. What is he REALLY doing? Careful, this country has libel laws...make sure you can back up your allegations....

Yes, he's been suspended for positives. Do you really think most of these 150 owners are unaware of his past? I think these owners know full well what they are buying when they purchase his training services, don't you?

[john del riccio]

I find statements like this difficult to ignore. What is he REALLY doing? Careful, this country has libel laws...make sure you can back up your allegations....

Yes, he's been suspended for positives. Do you really think most of these 150 owners are unaware of his past? I think these owners know full well what they are buying when they purchase his training services, don't you?

I used to have a horse or 2 in NY (not with Dutrow) and would go to watch them train in the early AM when they were ready to run. I've been exposed to some unbeleivable nonsense over there and I agree that I probably shouldn't get into anymore of this discussion here. My apologies.

John

[alysheba88]

I find statements like this difficult to ignore. What is he REALLY doing? Careful, this country has libel laws...make sure you can back up your allegations....

Yes, he's been suspended for positives. Do you really think most of these 150 owners are unaware of his past? I think these owners know full well what they are buying when they purchase his training services, don't you?

Yes, of course they know. Which is why they need to start suspending owners as well. Only way to get change.

Dutrow has been caught several times.

[ELA]

Fortunately, or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, they will not be suspending owners -- unless of course there is some direct role, involvement, etc. on an owner's part. This is an evolutionary aspect of the business -- key word being "business". Now yes, we can all debate that without the gamblers there would be no racing, business, sport, etc., or without the owners, there would be no racing, business, sport, etc. -- and we can have that arguement right after we settle another fallacious arguement -- which is -- my dad can beat up your dad.

Will they suspend horses? Sure, to an extent harness racing does that already by making horses race out of a quarantine barn (for excess black box tests; horses and trainers/stables).

There needs to be massive reform, but we also need to understand who must drive that reform. There is no national regulatory or governing body. The Jockey Club is not only acting as a catalyst, but is taking the lead in bringing about change.

I've been beat a heck of a lot more than I've won against some of these trainers who people complain about nonstop, day after day, etc. Are some of the complaints valid? Sure. Do some of them come from sore losers? Sure. Do some of them come from people who can't compete? Sure. And so on and so on.

This is not a one dimensional simple solution. In my opinion, and I have to race against him, Rick Dutrow does not deserve a lifetime suspension -- period. Until he gets caught and gets convicted of a crime that calls for that type of suspension. Specifically what that crime is, I don't know. Not for bute though. And not for some drug that has legitimate use on the racetrack, but they gave it 2 days out instead of 3. For each positive, sure, increase the suspension. DOn't let people push it off into the future. Increase the days and increase the fines.

But don't give a guy a lifetime jail sentence for jaywalking just because -- and here are the words that I think are the biggest cop-out -- just because YOU KNOW he's doing something else, other stuff, etc.

Eric

[linrom1]

I used to have a horse or 2 in NY (not with Dutrow) and would go to watch them train in the early AM when they were ready to run. I've been exposed to some unbeleivable nonsense over there and I agree that I probably shouldn't get into anymore of this discussion here. My apologies.

John

The less we know, the better off we'll be in the future? Ignorance is bliss, let's just look the other way.

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't want to single out John here, but what he says is a major problem with our sport today. If what is going on out there is SO obvious to the people on the backstretch every day, how are these trainers allowed to continue on?

Why do tracks look the other way if it is SO obvious what is happening? You'd think if it were SO obvious, Spitzer and the attack group that went after NYRA would have brough this to the limelight and used it as another nail in the NYRA coffin....

So many obvious questions at this point, one is just left shaking one's head, yet again....

[Valuist]

I don't want to single out John here, but what he says is a major problem with our sport today. If what is going on out there is SO obvious to the people on the backstretch every day, how are these trainers allowed to continue on?

Why do tracks look the other way if it is SO obvious what is happening? You'd think if it were SO obvious, Spitzer and the attack group that went after NYRA would have brough this to the limelight and used it as another nail in the NYRA coffin....

So many obvious questions at this point, one is just left shaking one's head, yet again....

Because its easier to look the other way and ignore it, at least in their minds.

What they are going to have to do is suspend the horses, as well as the trainers. This sticks it to the owners; many of whom may not know exactly what is going on. The grooms and backstretch workers would be hurt by this as well. It would be unfortunate that many innocent would be hurt but racing has a real image problem and step number one is cleaning up the drugs that are hurting the sport.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Do the big trainers listed on multiple circuits only get drug violations on the circuit that they personally train, or where their assistants train also? What happens to the asisstant if a horse they are directly training gets a violation? Do they get fired or congratulated and continue on when the listed trainer gets suspended??

[aaron]

It is not easy to catch people are using drugs in racing .This has been going on for years.For a interesting look at drugs in racing, I recommend reading the excerpt from the Steve Davidowitz book,"The Best and Worst of Throughbred Ra

[alysheba88]

It is obvious whats going on and has been for years. But as long as even horse players will be apologists for the cheaters nothing concrete will change

[JPinMaryland]

would it be possible to penalize owner in this way: Any trainer caught doing soemthing illegal, any horse that won under him in the past month has to give back the prize money?

[aaron]

Since when do horseplayers have a say ?
Andy Beyer has been wailing about the super trainers for years and nothing has ever been done. Race Tracks can deny stall space,but the way things are today we'd end up with 4 horse fields.
This is a problem that should have been taken care of years ago.Race tracks always act after the problem has escalated,when its too late.They never stop the problem in the beginning.

[alysheba88]

Most people with common sense knew Barry Bonds was cheating. You dont think Giant management suspected? You dont think they would have acted differently if they would have had to forfeit games if caught?

Drugs in racing is an epidemic. Worse than the steroid problem was in baseball. Most are still in deep denial

[JWBurnie]

IMO, the track is responsible for what occurs. The only thing they care about is having enough horses to fill races. Whether the horse is sound or not, doesn't really mater. As long as they make their profit, they couldn't care less about the horses.

Does anyone know who pockets the money from these fines? Wouldn't be surprised if it's a win / win for the track.

[karlskorner]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37530

Appears everybody is more worried about the problem than Mr. Dutrow

[JWBurnie]

http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=37530

Appears everybody is more worried about the problem than Mr. Dutrow


The NYSR should tell him to extend his "Carnivale" for another 6 months.

[skate]

ELA;


thanks for that post

[44PACE]

Everyone knows what happened with the Breeders cup p6 a few years ago. What is there to stop this from happening in everday Trifecta and Superfecta pools?. I don't bet these but I do look at the payoffs and a lot of these are paying way less than expected. When you can't see the probable payoffs like you do in win or exactas it would be easy to skim.

[john del riccio]

I hope our esteemed host doesn't take umbridge with my comments here, he has a valid concerns about making contreversial statments.

As part of making figures, you get "feel" for what level each and every classification of horses typically perform at. When something "bizarre" hasppens, natural human curiousity lends itself to seeing who trains AND
owns the horse in question. Over time, it becomes obvious that something
unusual is going on. By making note of these occurances over an extended period of time, an opinion starts to form that all is not as it appears.

When Henry was alive, and I was only a subscriber to his ratings, we would often have talks regarding performance enhancing medications that he had
felt strongly were being administered. He stated that these horses were typically ones that went to the lead and simply just didn't "get tired".
Since Henry passed away in 1998, I beleive that the medication he was
referring to at that time, unbeknownst to him, was clenbuterol. Once this
drug was "uncovered" it was deemed to not be allowed as a race-day medication but could be administered for thereputic purposes to improved
lung function ie., if you can breath better you can run faster and longer).
Different juristictions have different medication policies as to how many days before a race you can administer clenbuterol now, but that is a separate issue.

One of Henry's other pet peeves was the home of the Blue Bloods; that is kentucky. He would hardly ever wager on KY races and went out of hi sway on many many occasions to inform me that when faced with a KY shipper, I should draw a line through any races in the PP's that were run in KY if todays race was being contested ANYWHERE else but KY. I cannot tell you how many days I cashed a nice bet by doing that. When SAR came around and all the KY shippers showed up and got hammered at the windows, I simply rated them on races they rasn outside KY and if they were competitive, they were
live, if they were KY wonders, i just tossed them. KY allows the highest level of lasix to be administered of any juristication which allows for OTHER medications to be masked quite easily; such as bicarbonates (CO2 levels) AKA
milkshakes.... This has calmed down to some degree recently but not sufficiently.

EPO (Epogen) had been administered to increase blood cell count (i can't remeber whether it was red or white) and is typically given to cancer patients. It got SO BAD that delware park put on their claim slips that if a horse tested positive after a race in which you claimed it out of, the claim would be voided (oh yeah, it would cost you an extra 50.00 to have this special test performed).

Anyone that thinks this isn't going on at varying levels ain different juristictions is only fooling themselves.

The claiming game was put into place to allow horsement to appraise their stock and run them where they thought they'd be competitive. The key word is competitive. If a particluar consistently puts his horses in too cheap, they'll get claimed away, too high, the owners go broke. It was a checks and balances approach which makes sense. When 10,000 claimers, for example, are showing running times that make the race look like a money allowance contest over a surface that doesn't appear to be changing speed relative to
surrounding races, an experience figure maker makes note. When this scenario plays out repeatedly, and the same "cast of characters" show up in the trainer and or owner lines, its obvious.

The exclaimation point on this whole process culminates after a horse leaves
a super-trainers care. Can it perform at "close" to the level it was performing previously. Yes, there are cases where a soundness issue takes precidence,
but over a larger sample, it becomes clear that 90% of the horses leaving a particluar trainers care don't suddenly develop soundness issues. There are many trainers that are just good horsemen (I mention Bruce Levine being
one of them) and its hard to move up a horse claimed from him. But I am not even talking about moving up a horse taken from a super trainer that completely falls apart. Just look at how horses perform after they are claimed from certain barns. You will see things from a different perspective.

John

[JWBurnie]

Well stated John.

What's your take on vet's? Specifically, state vet's and allowing these horses to run. They know better then anyone.

[john del riccio]

Well stated John.

What's your take on vet's? Specifically, state vet's and allowing these horses to run. They know better then anyone.


I will say this. I had a horse at FG several years ago that was with a trainer
that we gave the horse to that just got beat 5 lengths in a nw3x race in NY.
The "old trainer" was Ann Merryman, she is a great horsewoman, cares deeply for the horses in general, and is not an abuser of vets. Our new trainer, won 2 races and a third at the FG and we didn't receive a vet bill until 4 months after we gave him the horse. In fact we received all 4 months of vet bills at once at an average cost of over 1000.00. When I looked through the bills and disected them, I enlisted the help of a much more experienced owner. When they reviewed the bills they told me my horse must be a real cripple. I consulted with Ann on this and was informed that he was just as sound as he was when he left as when he arrived; in fact he was always a very sound horse.

This incident prompted me to call the trainer to question the medications on the vet bill and I was infomed that my horse had "issues". Needless to say, after many go-arounds between him and th evet, I agreed to pay ONLY 1/2 the vet bills and we moved the horse to another trainer who was no stranger to horseflesh and had a pretty simpressive resume. Our horse never ran
as well for this new trainer was he did for the previous trainer and had NO soundness issues at all. When you see things like this first hand, its sort of hard not to piece togther the puzzle.

John

[PaceAdvantage]

I hope our esteemed host doesn't take umbridge with my comments here, he has a valid concerns about making contreversial statments.

Umbridge? You have to be kidding! Those last two posts were excellent. Thank you for sharing!

[PaceAdvantage]

IMO, the track is responsible for what occurs. The only thing they care about is having enough horses to fill races. Whether the horse is sound or not, doesn't really mater.

I'm afraid you have cut to the heart of the matter. That's why Suff's idea of closing racetracks is one that may go a long way to making a real positive impact on the game.

[john del riccio]

Umbridge? You have to be kidding! Those last two posts were excellent. Thank you for sharing!

Its a respect thing, you have a great forum here & I just want to keep
within the rules...

John

[ELA]

Personally, I think this is a great thread. It's conversations like this, and byproducts that can come from it, like ad hoc committees, think-tanks, etc. and related discussions, that lead to change and reform. Human nature is human nature and always will be. Progress is often not enough, fast enough, etc. for eveyrone.

With that in mind, I think we need to look at this more globally. Are there things going everyday that turn heads? Well, apparently so as people have said it. I am not going to dispute that. I am out at the track several times a week from morning until the races. I am a more than a passive owner, and to some active and hands on may be a relative term. However, I certainly do participate as an active manager of my interests. It's a sport that I love and a business that I love. We have all heard stories about things that have gone on. Some are true I am sure, and I am just as sure that some are just that -- stories. It's similar to the game of telephone that many of us might have played as children. There also tends to be somewhat of an aura or mystery that surrounds the "backstretch" and everything that goes on. It is difficult to be on the outside and look from a distance at the inside.

Regardless, massive reform is needed. In part, so that the cheaters cannot exist steps ahead of the rules and regulations, and regulatory bodies, that are supposed to govern them. However, there is always another element to the "cheaters" conversation. Now, this is going to be a generic portrayal, but the experience spans dozens of horses. I have a 25% plus trainer who has done extremely well for me. His daily rate is $85. His vet bills average about $200-$300 per month, at that is on a major racing circuit. I also have another 25% trainer, same circuit, and he has done extremely well also. His daily rate is $65 per day. However, the vet bills are substantially higher. I knew this going in. We discussed it. The horses, for discussion purposes, are not less sound or have more issues. There is a different mindset and methodology that goes on. It may involve ongoing treatments or programs -- yes, like clenbuterol or other types of supplements. There might be vitamin programs, electrolyte supplements, etc. I have seen vet bills for $2000 for a month -- fortunately they are not a regular occurrence. But I do know owners who see those types of bills every month. Certain trainers are quicker to tap joints, treat problems, or potential problems. They may be more proactive than reactive. There is a great deal that goes on in and around this discussion.

Now, what does all this mean? Ready for this? It means nothing. This is a very myopic view and something that is examined in a vacuum. Big vet bills do not automatically mean guilt nor are they reflective of secret and hidden issues. There is a legitimate aspect to this discussion. I compare vet bills with other friends and owners, we discuss these things, etc.

Is this game clean? Of course not. If you are putting your horse on the track with hay and water then you are at a competitive disadvantage. That is a reality and not always a bad thing. The real question -- which might be impossible to address and resolve here -- is where does the line of abuse, cheating, etc. get crossed.

Anyone who believes that the so called "super trainers" are producing the results they are because of misuse and pushing the envelope on legal, legitimate, etc. medications and drugs are fooling themselves. Yet, we as an industry cannot convict those who we think are guilty of felonies when they are only caught with misdemeanor violations. That does not solve the problem. It's the wrong solution for the wrong problem. Spend the money needed to solve the real problems. Create the possibility. The harness racing game has made more progress than we as an industry have. Have they solved all the problems? No, of course not. But they've made more progress.

The problems must be solved from both from within and from the outside. However, it is not going to be solved by discriminatory and selective prosecution and conviction.

Now I'll let the lynch mob continue, LOL.

Thank you for the forum.


Eric

[Kelso]

The real question -- which might be impossible to address and resolve here -- is where does the line of abuse, cheating, etc. get crossed.

<snip>

Spend the money needed to solve the real problems. Create the possibility.

<snip>

The problems must be solved from both from within and from the outside.




Eric,

Greatly enjoy reading of your experiences and opinions from your "inside" perspective. Thank you for posting them.

Not sure, however, what you mean when you wonder "where does the line ... get crossed?" Are you suggesting that some abuse and/or cheating is acceptable? (I don't think this is what you meant but, from your phrasing, I'm not certain of it.) Or, perhaps, are you saying that the current rules are not sufficiently clear; or something else entirely?

Also, would you kindly be more specific as to what, in your view, "the real problems" are; and, would you please elaborate on how the industry might best "spend the money needed" to solve them?

Looking forward to your responses and, again, thank you.

[ELA]

Eric,
Greatly enjoy reading of your experiences and opinions from your "inside" perspective. Thank you for posting them.

Not sure, however, what you mean when you wonder "where does the line ... get crossed?" Are you suggesting that some abuse and/or cheating is acceptable? (I don't think this is what you meant but, from your phrasing, I'm not certain of it.) Or, perhaps, are you saying that the current rules are not sufficiently clear; or something else entirely?

Also, would you kindly be more specific as to what, in your view, "the real problems" are; and, would you please elaborate on how the industry might best "spend the money needed" to solve them?

Looking forward to your responses and, again, thank you.

Your welcome, and thank you. I apologize for the wording -- it could have been stated more clearly. No, no cheating is acceptable, none whatsoever. However, then, we really need to have clarity around what cheating really is. Tonight, on ATRAB, Gary Contessa was one of the phone-in guests and he spoke about how scary it is that a trainer may be looking at massive liabilities from a positive test of an everyday, legitimate use, legal medication. Anyway, I don't want to attempt to quote or paraphrase him, however, he brought up some very good points.

Should a trainer get a lifetime suspension for a clenbuterol positive? What about a second one? A third? What about if that trainer starts 2000 horses per year, as opposed to another trainer who starts 100? I don't think there can be a black and white. Now, I think it's very simple on these designer, exotic, etc. drugs -- that's pretty simple -- severe penalties, severe fines, three strikes you are out. But the rules need to be very clear -- extremely clear!

Massive reform doesn't mean quick and simple reform. It's a complex problem and requires comples solutions. "Spending the money" as far as I am concerned means DOING something about the problem and DOING something to implement solutions. Spend millions of dollars on new tests, new technology -- not a grant that establishes a committee that will talk and discuss how to solve these problems, and then ultimately issue a study or report which by the time it comes out will be outdated.

As I've said, the Meadowlands in NJ has made much more progress than most. They are owned and operated by the State of NJ. Work with them, piggy-back on their efforts, collaborate, create synnergystic relationships and programs for testing. Why can't multiple tracks in geographically close proximity unite to bring about better and more modern testing? Money? Brains? Although most people doubt it, there is more than enough of that in our business.

Anyway, interesting story -- I am out at the track, and I head down to the race office where I bump into another owner I know. He is about to watch one of his horses race with his trainer. Their horse finishes 6th and the trainer starts on some diatribe about cheating, cheaters, these guys are ruining the game, why is "this guy" even in the game, etc. This trainer is racing a horse -- he claimed for $25k -- for $25k, 7 months ago, who hasn't gotten within 10 lengths of the winner since he claimed him. I don't know the trainer well, but I know he is a 5% trainer who won about 10 races last year. Now, the winning trainer who he was badmouthing is a 25% trainer and won over 100 races last year. He won that day with a horse he claimed 3 starts back for $50k. This trainer has never had a positive test in 25 years and is known for classifying his horses aggressively and is not afraid to drop. I know many owners in this trainer's barn. I've seen the vet bills, training bills, etc.

After the verbal assault, the losing trainer goes back to the paddock. The losing owner says to me "well, you just can't beat these guys, the cheating is really killing this game"

My question is -- where's the cheating here?

Is this the norm? No, of course not. But there is also a great deal of saving face, scapegoating, and so on. On the other hand, is the "cheating" the norm?

Eric

[PaceAdvantage]

Eric,

Great last two posts, IMO. It's difficult to have a discussion like this without it devolving into a "You're either with us, or against us" mentality when it comes to suspected cheats (even guys who have been suspended....are they cheats, or did someone in the organization simply make an 'innocent' mistake)?

I know I often try and play devil's advocate on here, because that's just my nature....and I've taken my share of heat for it. I think the points about Contessa and the face saving/scapegoating issues are ones that need to be considered without the usual "You're a cheater-sympathizer" and/or "You're just hiding your head in the sand!" retorts.

When I look for reasonable alternative explanations in certain cases, this does not mean that I believe the game is clean, or that there aren't a lot of trainers who cheat.

But I've rambled long enough....what I'm trying to say is, thank you for elevating the discussion...let's keep it going!

[Kelso]

Now, the winning trainer who he was badmouthing is a 25% trainer and won over 100 races last year. He won that day with a horse he claimed 3 starts back for $50k. This trainer has never had a positive test in 25 years and is known for classifying his horses aggressively and is not afraid to drop. I know many owners in this trainer's barn. I've seen the vet bills, training bills, etc.

After the verbal assault, the losing trainer goes back to the paddock. The losing owner says to me "well, you just can't beat these guys, the cheating is really killing this game"

My question is -- where's the cheating here?

Is this the norm? No, of course not. But there is also a great deal of saving face, scapegoating, and so on. On the other hand, is the "cheating" the norm?

Eric


Thank you for another illuminating, and fascinating, inside view. I'm basically a black or white type ... so this anecdote-in-gray is instructive for me.

Curious ... does the winning trainer -- currently successful and clean for 25 years -- charge appreciably more for his services that the losing trainer? I'm assuming the losing owner knew of that trainer's record, and wondering why he wouldn't take his trainer's losses and scapegoating as indications that it might be time for a change.

Thanks again, very much.

[Indulto]

... Big vet bills do not automatically mean guilt nor are they reflective of secret and hidden issues. There is a legitimate aspect to this discussion. I compare vet bills with other friends and owners, we discuss these things, etc.

Is this game clean? Of course not. If you are putting your horse on the track with hay and water then you are at a competitive disadvantage. That is a reality and not always a bad thing. The real question -- which might be impossible to address and resolve here -- is where does the line of abuse, cheating, etc. get crossed.

Anyone who believes that the so called "super trainers" are producing the results they are because of misuse and pushing the envelope on legal, legitimate, etc. medications and drugs are fooling themselves. Yet, we as an industry cannot convict those who we think are guilty of felonies when they are only caught with misdemeanor violations. That does not solve the problem. It's the wrong solution for the wrong problem.ELA,
It’s refreshing to get an actual insider observation in contrast to more usual outsider speculation and opinion.

As you obviously listen to ATTRB, you probably caught their recent all-star” show. Is it safe to assume you agree with Steven Crist that “the medication issue is not the biggest problem in racing” and that “there is no evidence that the top two or three guys at the top of the trainer standings are cheating.”

On the same show, speed figure makers, Andrew Beyer and Jerry Brown, disagreed with Crist, taking the position that medication abuse has reached critical levels. If in fact you agree with Crist, why are there not more active voices countering the voluminous aspersions cast on the role of medication in thoroughbred racing? If not, does your position differ from those of Beyer and Brown and in what way?

Thanks,
Indulto

[alysheba88]

If horses need drugs to run they shouldnt run.

I know thats blasphemy.

And spare me the 4 horse fields that would result. Thats short sighted. We are where we are because you have drug addicted horses passing down their infirmities to their offspring. With the emphasis always on speed. And all the while people complain and clammer for a super horse that stays healthy.

Its not even about competitive advantage. Its about perceived competitive advantage. Used to be the horse bleeds then yeah you give em something. Now you just give em something anyway. People alot smarter then me have discussed how legal drugs like lasix can mask illegal drugs.

Until racing goes to some Olympic style testing nothing will get resolved. People think its wrong to call some of these trainers chemists but thats many are.

The problem has been ignored too long.

What goes on in California is a complete disgrace.

Every point I have read about "innocent until proven guilty" was virtually the same word for word as I saw about baseball in the steriod era. There are people today who will still argue Barry Bonds took nothing. I cant nor want to make those people see.

Does this mean every single allegation is true? That every single trainer a cheat? No

[john del riccio]

In KY it is legal to run on banamine, thats a pian killer stroger than BUTE. Bute is typically given after a race to ease the discomfort from muscle soreness. If
you were a talented basketball athlete in your youth but have an arthretic knee now you know you can still play but not at the same level. If you were to get that knee injected with a pain killer and then took a trip back to your old neighborhood to play with your old friends, while feeling no pain, you'd feel like a kid again and would likely perform almost as well. The next day when the pain-killer wore off. You wouldn't be abnle to walk due to the damge of stressing that joint the day before. Welcome to the world of trying to claim a horse that has run on banamine in KY. Bute is legal to run on in CA, MA, and a few other juristictions, but not in NY, NJ, & MD. Why is that ?
Its rediculous. Baffert got in trouble a whil eback because he administered clebuterol too close to raceday when he shipped out of town (texas I beleive...). Its a game of three card monte at times. Beleive me, I am as enthusiastic as anyone when it comes to this game but sooner or later the objective part of everyones thinking is forced to take over and it resuslts in seeing things for what they are; a mess.

John

[boomman]

Originally Posted by JimG
Maybe horse racing needs a commissioner with absolute authority, a la baseball. Strict policies need to be laid down for known cheaters. Time to clean up this "sport" before it is too late to do any good.



Ralph wrote:this was a big topic on the "at the races" show that was posted here

I would love to hear more calls for this type of setup.

Jim and Ralph: I agree with this concept 100% and commit to doing anything on my end I can to support it. Don't hesitate to let me know what I can do to help. Is it time to set up a horseplayer/officials in the industry alliance? Boom

[boomman]

Indulto wrote:As you obviously listen to ATTRB, you probably caught their recent all-star” show. Is it safe to assume you agree with Steven Crist that “the medication issue is not the biggest problem in racing” and that “there is no evidence that the top two or three guys at the top of the trainer standings are cheating.”

On the same show, speed figure makers, Andrew Beyer and Jerry Brown, disagreed with Crist, taking the position that medication abuse has reached critical levels. If in fact you agree with Crist, why are there not more active voices countering the voluminous aspersions cast on the role of medication in thoroughbred racing? If not, does your position differ from those of Beyer and Brown and in what way?

Thanks,
Indulto

Sorry guys for 2 postings in a row, but just catching up as I've been out of the country on vacation: Beyer and Brown are spot on here! If there is no medication abuse in racing then answer me this: How can that argument be made when 4 of the top "super trainers" were serving suspensions at the same time? Although I think Steven Crist has been a great advocate for horse racing in the past, it's ridiculous to me for him to say (and keep in mind I didn't hear the show and I'm getting this info 2nd hand from this thread) that medication abuse is not the number one problem in racing. I agree that it's barely ahead of pool integrity which I believe needs a lot of attention as well from a commissioner with ABSOLUTE authority! We have many problems in horse racing which are too numerous to list here, but medication abuse is absolutely the number one problem IMHO. I also agree with an earlier poster that this is a great thread and it is time that we rise up together as horseplayers and with those of us in the industry and do something similar to what the poker players are doing in the poker player alliance. Boom

[ELA]

Eric,

Great last two posts, IMO. It's difficult to have a discussion like this without it devolving into a "You're either with us, or against us" mentality when it comes to suspected cheats (even guys who have been suspended....are they cheats, or did someone in the organization simply make an 'innocent' mistake)?

I know I often try and play devil's advocate on here, because that's just my nature....and I've taken my share of heat for it. I think the points about Contessa and the face saving/scapegoating issues are ones that need to be considered without the usual "You're a cheater-sympathizer" and/or "You're just hiding your head in the sand!" retorts.

When I look for reasonable alternative explanations in certain cases, this does not mean that I believe the game is clean, or that there aren't a lot of trainers who cheat.

But I've rambled long enough....what I'm trying to say is, thank you for elevating the discussion...let's keep it going!

Thank you for the comments. I am so certain this would be an even better discussion if in fact 10 or 12 of us were in a room together. Not that we would be able to bring about change, but there would be so much more for all of us in the way of understanding and the like.

There is no one overwhelming factor here. It's cumulative and often compounding.

By the way, I want to make something else very clear. My opinions, experiences, etc. are not that coming from an "insider" or an "insiders perspective" -- it's more just my personal, everyday, real world experience. I don't want this to become an "us" and "them" nor is it a condesending type thing. Not in any way, shape or form.

Eric

[ELA]

ELA,
It’s refreshing to get an actual insider observation in contrast to more usual outsider speculation and opinion.

As you obviously listen to ATTRB, you probably caught their recent all-star” show. Is it safe to assume you agree with Steven Crist that “the medication issue is not the biggest problem in racing” and that “there is no evidence that the top two or three guys at the top of the trainer standings are cheating.”

On the same show, speed figure makers, Andrew Beyer and Jerry Brown, disagreed with Crist, taking the position that medication abuse has reached critical levels. If in fact you agree with Crist, why are there not more active voices countering the voluminous aspersions cast on the role of medication in thoroughbred racing? If not, does your position differ from those of Beyer and Brown and in what way?

Thanks,
Indulto

I did not listen to the entire show. I -- and I very hesitantly say this -- think that agreeing and disagreeing is not really the issue. I think where Crist and his opinion is coming from is more important. I like Steve and very much respect his opinion on many things. However, the "evidence" issue is a very interesting one.

Now, I don't want to sound like an idiot, but again, aren't we back to the same discussion here? Can anyone prove that "trainer X" or "trainer y" is doing ______________ (fill in the blank at your pleasure, LOL). I know the stats, and I've seen the studies. Is there "something" going on? I am sure there is -- but you have to tackle, wrestle and take down the problem in an efficient and effective way.

My personal opinion, as I've said before, is that massive reform is needed. Uniform medication rules are needed. Universal standards of treatment and penalities are needed. I think The Jockey Club should take the lead and look to fund the initiative that gets the ball rolling.

Someone once told me that no matter how much money you spend on labs, testing, research, etc. -- no matter what you do, the cheaters will always be at least a couple of steps ahead of you.

So, depending on how you look at it, it's either "we are screwed" -- or it's "only a couple of steps? well, that's not too bad, we've made up some ground and closed on them, and at least we are in the race"

Eric

[Valuist]

In KY it is legal to run on banamine, thats a pian killer stroger than BUTE. Bute is typically given after a race to ease the discomfort from muscle soreness. If
you were a talented basketball athlete in your youth but have an arthretic knee now you know you can still play but not at the same level. If you were to get that knee injected with a pain killer and then took a trip back to your old neighborhood to play with your old friends, while feeling no pain, you'd feel like a kid again and would likely perform almost as well. The next day when the pain-killer wore off. You wouldn't be abnle to walk due to the damge of stressing that joint the day before. Welcome to the world of trying to claim a horse that has run on banamine in KY. Bute is legal to run on in CA, MA, and a few other juristictions, but not in NY, NJ, & MD. Why is that ?
Its rediculous. Baffert got in trouble a whil eback because he administered clebuterol too close to raceday when he shipped out of town (texas I beleive...). Its a game of three card monte at times. Beleive me, I am as enthusiastic as anyone when it comes to this game but sooner or later the objective part of everyones thinking is forced to take over and it resuslts in seeing things for what they are; a mess.

John

In 1995 I was part of a partnership that claimed a horse that was running in Kentucky. Big, big mistake. When the horse got back to Hawthorne, he was going thru withdrawal because he had been drugged so badly before. It would be four months before we could get him back to the track.

[cj]

Someone once told me that no matter how much money you spend on labs, testing, research, etc. -- no matter what you do, the cheaters will always be at least a couple of steps ahead of you.

Eric

You freeze samples as recommended by Jerry Brown. They would still be ahead, but their day would come.

[Greyfox]

I've mentioned this in another thread, but I feel that it needs repeating here. ABC news ran an article on their website on Feb. 8. Willem Marx is reporting that deaths of races horses per start are as follows:
Hong Kong .58 deaths per 1,000 starts
U.S.A. 1.50 deaths per 1,000 starts

Misuse of medications and illegal supplements (drugs) are suspected.
There may of course be other reasons, but the gap between what is going on in this continent vs. Hong Kong is definitely significant.
The Marx article is available on line at:
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=2857650&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[JustRalph]

Don't they run mostly on Grass over there? I would think that would make a difference

[john del riccio]

In 1995 I was part of a partnership that claimed a horse that was running in Kentucky. Big, big mistake. When the horse got back to Hawthorne, he was going thru withdrawal because he had been drugged so badly before. It would be four months before we could get him back to the track.

Part my service is to identify potential claims for owners/trainers. I will not recommend a horse that
shows great form in KY. Even if they plan on keeping the horse in KY. Its a joke that the bluegrass state is
the place where there are the loosest rules. It actually used to be "ok" to milkshake a horse there.

John

[andicap]

John,
I think PA's concerns are making allegations or personal attacks without FACTS to back them up. Baseless statements are a no-no. That's one of the best things about PA and this board -- he keeps things as unsensational as possible. A class act.

[ELA]

You freeze samples as recommended by Jerry Brown. They would still be ahead, but their day would come.

I haven't heard Jerry Brown's opinions or recommendations directly, thus I can't comment on them, however, I think this is a great idea. Now, I do not know the specifics, costs, and everything that would be required here, however, I very much think the concept is great.

DNA is convicting people, and proving their innocense, sometimes decades after the crime. Something like this in our industry may close the gap from many steps and make it a much closer race so to speak.

However, let's not make money the obstacle and the reason why we can't do this. I think the industry needs to find ideas and solutions such as this, quickly and swiftly agree that it is prudent, sound, quality, etc. -- and THEN MAKE IT HAPPEN. Don't shoot down ideas because of money or some other obstacle-type reasons or excuses. If it's quality and a good idea -- go out and find the money, fund it, look for grants, raise the funds, anything to be proactive in GETTING IT DONE; rather than talking about why we can't.

Now, very important -- I also want to learn, hear about, see, investigate the potential downsides here as well. I don't know anything about that, if it exists. Is contamination a problem. Does time diminish accuracy, etc. -- I don't know anything about this so I am just making up some questions. Is there a downside to frozen samples? What is the potential risk, if any? This is the discuss that needs to take place in and around any potential solutions.

Eric

[DanG]

Excellent thread!

Accusations and speculation are common place in our industry now. Each of us ultimately bares our own truth within ourselves. PA’s perspective is not exactly that of Eric’s which in turn is not exactly that of mine.

My perspective:





35+ years following racing and 20+ of them very seriously. The move ups certain barns have achieved over the years are virtually miraculous.
Unlike a professional football player who has a say in ingesting performance enhancers, our athletes (the animal) have none.
If the illegal drugging of an animal occurs and a wager is cashed, it should be as punishable as any insider trading violation on Wall Street.
If an animal is being medicated with veterinarian supervision, full disclosure to the public must be made available. Conversely, if this ongoing medication is suspended for a given race the same principles apply.
2nd hand information: A friend was a breeding manager in Kentucky. The condition certain broodmares came to him in from a very high profile trainer is deplorable. Livers 3X the normal size etc. This conditioner was widely nicknamed “the butcher” within Kentucky breeding circles. (See point two concerning the animals “rights”.)
This is NOT disparaging trainers as a whole. I truly believe the high end “designer drugs” are not as wide spread as people think. A tremendous amount of hard work and talent go into the training of thoroughbreds.

For an extreme example:

Given equal stock; you could guard the barns of Dick Dutrow and John Candlin with a shotgun and I guarantee Dutrow’s win% would dominate Candlin’s. There are dozens of reasons people excel at every profession with the medication being just a part of the equation.

Thanks for a great read. :ThmbUp:

[john del riccio]

Excellent thread!

Accusations and speculation are common place in our industry now. Each of us ultimately bares our own truth within ourselves. PA’s perspective is not exactly that of Eric’s which in turn is not exactly that of mine.

My perspective:




35+ years following racing and 20+ of them very seriously. The move ups certain barns have achieved over the years are virtually miraculous.
Unlike a professional football player who has a say in ingesting performance enhancers, our athletes (the animal) have none.
If the illegal drugging of an animal occurs and a wager is cashed, it should be as punishable as any insider trading violation on Wall Street.
If an animal is being medicated with veterinarian supervision, full disclosure to the public must be made available. Conversely, if this ongoing medication is suspended for a given race the same principles apply.
2nd hand information: A friend was a breeding manager in Kentucky. The condition certain broodmares came to him in from a very high profile trainer is deplorable. Livers 3X the normal size etc. This conditioner was widely nicknamed “the butcher” within Kentucky breeding circles. (See point two concerning the animals “rights”.)
This is NOT disparaging trainers as a whole. I truly believe the high end “designer drugs” are not as wide spread as people think. A tremendous amount of hard work and talent go into the training of thoroughbreds.

For an extreme example:

Given equal stock; you could guard the barns of Dick Dutrow and John Candlin with a shotgun and I guarantee Dutrow’s win% would dominate Candlin’s. There are dozens of reasons people excel at every profession with the medication being just a part of the equation.

Thanks for a great read. :ThmbUp:

This is NOT speculation. This is account is first hand. Three years ago, I claimed a filly at DEL off a particlar trainer that always spotted his horses very aggresively. By that I mean, if they were worth 20 he'd run them for 16. He was winning tons of races and had alot of turnover in his barn. Soundness issues aside, this trainer simply didn't care if he lost horses via the claim box. The purses are so good at DEL, that he could claim one for 20, run it for 16, 3 weeks later and still be profitable...not too mention if a sizeable wager was made with a hefty rebate. Afterall, lots of handicappers view that move (claim & drop) as a negative, and it is, just not from ALL barns.

She won the day we claimed her within herself and
when we got her back to the barn we scoped her (clean), didn't give her any bute to see if she'd turn up sore the next morning and she didn't. GREAT CLAIM right ? My ratings said she was worth 30 on her best day, we got her for 16 and she was sound and coming off a pretty easy win. I am so smart !

Well, as they saying goes, not exacty. After about a week my trainer calls me and says she's acting strange and her coat has turned a little ratty. The vet was called over to take a peak and potentially draw
blood. When he was informed of who we claimed this horse from, he said "just lose her". Needless to say,
my ego wasn't the only thing that was bruised. We ran her back for the same price three weeks later (legal at DEL) against a field she should have toyed with. She ran 2nd, beaten 3 lengths and never was in danger of winning. The winner was moving up off a win for 10 that wasn't better than my filly at all but was trained by another super-trainer. My filly was claimed out of the race by this same trainer who just beat me. He wheeled her back in 10 days for 25 and she wins. That lesson taught me three things.

1.) DO NOT claim horses at DEL
2.) DO NOT claim off a trainer that is using something
your trainer isn't or shouldn't.
3.) The claiming game is truly liars poker and even if
you have the best hand, you can still lose.

John

[ELA]

Excellent thread!

Accusations and speculation are common place in our industry now. Each of us ultimately bares our own truth within ourselves. PA’s perspective is not exactly that of Eric’s which in turn is not exactly that of mine.

My perspective:




35+ years following racing and 20+ of them very seriously. The move ups certain barns have achieved over the years are virtually miraculous.
Unlike a professional football player who has a say in ingesting performance enhancers, our athletes (the animal) have none.
If the illegal drugging of an animal occurs and a wager is cashed, it should be as punishable as any insider trading violation on Wall Street.
If an animal is being medicated with veterinarian supervision, full disclosure to the public must be made available. Conversely, if this ongoing medication is suspended for a given race the same principles apply.
2nd hand information: A friend was a breeding manager in Kentucky. The condition certain broodmares came to him in from a very high profile trainer is deplorable. Livers 3X the normal size etc. This conditioner was widely nicknamed “the butcher” within Kentucky breeding circles. (See point two concerning the animals “rights”.)
This is NOT disparaging trainers as a whole. I truly believe the high end “designer drugs” are not as wide spread as people think. A tremendous amount of hard work and talent go into the training of thoroughbreds.

For an extreme example:

Given equal stock; you could guard the barns of Dick Dutrow and John Candlin with a shotgun and I guarantee Dutrow’s win% would dominate Candlin’s. There are dozens of reasons people excel at every profession with the medication being just a part of the equation.

Thanks for a great read. :ThmbUp:

DanG -- great post, and thank you for the commentary. A few interesting points, and I am thinking we agree a lot more than you may think, however that really isn't important.

First, the "move ups" -- yes, you are right, some of them are miraculious. They are very hard to believe, and common sense, experience, knowledge, mostly everything would lead most to believe there is something "unatural" at play. However, my question is -- what do you do about it? Do you take a guy and quarantine his entire barn? Video cameras? I am not really sure. A friend of mine told me recently that the OJC (Ontario Jockey Club) forced a trainer -- who has never had a positive test their entire career -- to race out of a quarantine barn. I am not questioning the legal rights to doing so, however, what is the outcome? I think if we think along these lines, we may not find solutions as easily as we may think or at all. However, if it does in fact help, I am all for it.

Second, I agree with many of your other points -- the wagering aspect for example. If wagering, deceiving the public, tampering with the outcome of a sports event, etc. -- and I don't know the actual charges, but if these things are involved, now we are talking about an entirely different dimension to the crime.

Your extreme example, I agree 1000%. I've addressed this before, however, there are in fact plenty of 5% trainers out there who exclusively point to the medication ingredient. That conversation has been around for a very long time. As you stated, it is part of the equation.

Anyway, thanks again.

Eric

[Show Me the Wire]

john del riccio:

Did your vet draw blood for analysis before he gave you his advice?
What type of substance causes a ratty coat and strange behavior as withdrawal symptoms?

[john del riccio]

john del riccio:

Did your vet draw blood for analysis before he gave you his advice?
What type of substance causes a ratty coat and strange behavior as withdrawal symptoms?

The vet said lose her and my trainer respected him so thats what we did. EPO is what I suspect it was. My trainer had saeen a horse simply start losing its coat, as in it was falling out. This scared the heck out of me. I kno wwhat you are getting at regarding vets.
They can be just as unscrupulous at times as some trainers. I had a horse that wrenched his ankle badly at one time that vet said "He will never run again".
I kept him around anyway because he was a special horse to me, gave him some time off, brought him back cheap and he won 3 times for me before getting claimed and won 4 more times after that; albeit at CT
but 7 wins is alot different from "will never run again".

John

[ELA]

This is NOT speculation. This is account is first hand. Three years ago, I claimed a filly at DEL off a particlar trainer that always spotted his horses very aggresively. By that I mean, if they were worth 20 he'd run them for 16. He was winning tons of races and had alot of turnover in his barn. Soundness issues aside, this trainer simply didn't care if he lost horses via the claim box. The purses are so good at DEL, that he could claim one for 20, run it for 16, 3 weeks later and still be profitable...not too mention if a sizeable wager was made with a hefty rebate. Afterall, lots of handicappers view that move (claim & drop) as a negative, and it is, just not from ALL barns.

She won the day we claimed her within herself and
when we got her back to the barn we scoped her (clean), didn't give her any bute to see if she'd turn up sore the next morning and she didn't. GREAT CLAIM right ? My ratings said she was worth 30 on her best day, we got her for 16 and she was sound and coming off a pretty easy win. I am so smart !

Well, as they saying goes, not exacty. After about a week my trainer calls me and says she's acting strange and her coat has turned a little ratty. The vet was called over to take a peak and potentially draw
blood. When he was informed of who we claimed this horse from, he said "just lose her". Needless to say,
my ego wasn't the only thing that was bruised. We ran her back for the same price three weeks later (legal at DEL) against a field she should have toyed with. She ran 2nd, beaten 3 lengths and never was in danger of winning. The winner was moving up off a win for 10 that wasn't better than my filly at all but was trained by another super-trainer. My filly was claimed out of the race by this same trainer who just beat me. He wheeled her back in 10 days for 25 and she wins. That lesson taught me three things.

1.) DO NOT claim horses at DEL
2.) DO NOT claim off a trainer that is using something
your trainer isn't or shouldn't.
3.) The claiming game is truly liars poker and even if
you have the best hand, you can still lose.

John

John, I think you brought up many excellent points, and your real world experience has taught you many lessons, as has mine. I am in the claiming game -- I don't buy yearlings, two year olds in training, etc. -- and of course I wouldn't go out of my way to claim horses from some of these so called "super trainers", yes, for all of the obvious reasons. In addition, there are enough low % trainers where there is much perceived "value" or perceived "edge" so to speak. So aside from looking for an edge in the condition book, manueverability, and the management side, sure, I would always look to claim from trainers that I feel my trainers can "improve" on.

However, "knowing what we know", as much as I hate to say it, I don't think that "knowing" is the solution. It's certainly not the same as being caught. As much as I "know" or you "know" or anyone "knows" for that matter -- I don't feel that we can convict people on something or anything that has not been proven. As ironic as this may sound, I think there must be integrity in the process and in the system -- and I say there is an irony there because I think many of us "know" that integrity is really the problem.

Again, great thread.

BTW, has everyone seen this --

http://www.drf.com/news/article/82594.html

California has adopted random drug testing -- out of competition random drug testing! Interesting?

I think one of the inherent problems here is certain trainers, perhaps in some cases rightfully so, being targeted. Perhaps the old adage of "if they want you, they will get you" might be a fear. I think there is a security factor here as well.

Anyway, while a level playing field or whatever you want to call it may be the ultimate goal, I think everyone has to be sensitive as to the cost of getting there. Yes, without question we need to get there but the cost must be addressed.

Eric

[Greyfox]

An article posted in a Standard Bred link is reporting that Harness Horseman
Pat Hudon has been fined $ 100,000 and given a 10 year suspension
in Ontario.

Can the thoroughbred industry in the U.S.A. learn from this type of disciplinary action. He was apparently using the drug Aranesp. The decision in it's entirety is also posted in a link at this site:
http://www.standardbredcanada.ca/news/iss0207/hudonappeal0209.html

[alysheba88]

John,
I think PA's concerns are making allegations or personal attacks without FACTS to back them up. Baseless statements are a no-no. That's one of the best things about PA and this board -- he keeps things as unsensational as possible. A class act.

There are enough facts about Dutrow to fill this forum

[Greyfox]

There are enough facts about Dutrow to fill this forum

Alysheba88. The problem is, there are not any "facts" about Dutrow to fill this forum.
You and I are probably in agreement as to our own personal speculations.
And , yes I've lost at the track underestimating his steeds before. And yes, I've lost overestimating his steeds in California.
But the forum isn't really about Dutrow.
It's about the game itself.

[PaceAdvantage]

John,
I think PA's concerns are making allegations or personal attacks without FACTS to back them up. Baseless statements are a no-no. That's one of the best things about PA and this board -- he keeps things as unsensational as possible. A class act.

Except when it comes to Ghostzapper.....:lol:

In any event, thanks for the kind words!

[alysheba88]

Alysheba88. The problem is, there are not any "facts" about Dutrow to fill this forum.
You and I are probably in agreement as to our own personal speculations.
And , yes I've lost at the track underestimating his steeds before. And yes, I've lost overestimating his steeds in California.
But the forum isn't really about Dutrow.
It's about the game itself.

Greyfox, you are mistaken. I am referring to proven positives and suspensions. Not speculation.

[formula_2002]

Every time I read the subject of this thread I can't help recalling

"I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! "
[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]

From the movie Casablanca

(and I saw the movie when it 1st came onto the screen!!)

[NY BRED]

While I may be dating myself, Nyra eliminated several wizards years ago such as Oscar Barrera,Peter Ferriola who were famous/infamous for their claims, many of which were plodders then running lights out
.

If Nyra pursued a more dilligent effort to eradicate illegal medication
by imposing stiffer fines and suspensions on trainers and owners
The Big A winter meet would either have even smaller fields
with horses running at proper levels and perhaps fairer odds,
or be forced to close.

In either even the safety and lives of both thoroughbred and jockeys would be better served which is what this game is supposed to be about.

[Buckeye]

Cheaters never win?

Two ways to deal with cheaters are break their face(s) or call the cops.

Only problem is, horseracing is by current definition a corrupt institution.

Why are you offering up a leader of the sport?

Says alot.

[john del riccio]

While I may be dating myself, Nyra eliminated several wizards years ago such as Oscar Barrera,Peter Ferriola who were famous/infamous for their claims, many of which were plodders then running lights out
.

If Nyra pursued a more dilligent effort to eradicate illegal medication
by imposing stiffer fines and suspensions on trainers and owners
The Big A winter meet would either have even smaller fields
with horses running at proper levels and perhaps fairer odds,
or be forced to close.

In either even the safety and lives of both thoroughbred and jockeys would be better served which is what this game is supposed to be about.

You may want to throw Juan Surey into that mix.
The NYRA didn't ban him but he was a true magician.

I remeber the day that Red Light Rambler won the
nightcap at AQU in 109.2 by 7 lengths and earned a speed figure on Henry's ratings that is what was
typically seen in minor stakes races. He was a 7yo
J-Bred that had always had talent but if he could run
like that, why was he in for 16....its an eye opening experience when you ask these types of questions.

John

[NY BRED]

trust me, I was going to enter his name

He has tried to resurface in NJ and NY and anyone interested in why
he was out of recing should google him.


I understand he is now down to about 4 horses, although he clicked at about a 75.00 mutual several weeks ago in a NY Bred Md sp.wt race

[Robert Fischer]

I am not a training "insider", so correct me if I am wrong.

Not sure if there is even a race-day test for steroids.

If you cycle a claimer on steroids, you may see short term improvement. If that horse is then claimed, the new owner my find that he can not race even to previous levels without the medications.

The "super trainer" operations can afford to administer quality steroids if they so choose to.

Masking illegal drugs , and or "designer" drugs go above and beyond, but it is hard to make a case for cracking down on performance enhancers while steroids are legal.

[Valuist]

The vet said lose her and my trainer respected him so thats what we did. EPO is what I suspect it was. My trainer had saeen a horse simply start losing its coat, as in it was falling out. This scared the heck out of me. I kno wwhat you are getting at regarding vets.
They can be just as unscrupulous at times as some trainers. I had a horse that wrenched his ankle badly at one time that vet said "He will never run again".
I kept him around anyway because he was a special horse to me, gave him some time off, brought him back cheap and he won 3 times for me before getting claimed and won 4 more times after that; albeit at CT
but 7 wins is alot different from "will never run again".

John

Great stuff in there. Once you've seen it first hand, you never underestimate the power of drugs in racing. I hear people say they like so and so because his last race 17 days ago was great, meanwhile the horse is going from a doping barn to a clean barn.

I started keeping a spreadsheet on how horses perform in their first race AWAY from particular trainers. There's one trainer in particular where the sample size is now over 50......and NOT A SINGLE HORSE won their next race after the claim. THe EPO reference definitely comes to mind....milkshaking is small stuff compared to some of the designer drugs out there.