Gulfstream timer

[cj]

Glad to see that a supposed world class meeting like Gulfstream once again has electronic timer issues. Three times in the last week mile races have been run, and only badly hand timed final times are given with no fractions.

It is only a RACE, who really cares how fast they ran?

I won't even get into the sometimes ludicrous turf times they post.

[Hosshead]

They need more time to get their **** together.
They've only had this problem since ... Secretariat ran there.

[john del riccio]

GP isn't the only track with timer problems, OP's 5th on saturday was hand-timed and the value posted doesn't appear kosher either.

John


Glad to see that a supposed world class meeting like Gulfstream once again has electronic timer issues. Three times in the last week mile races have been run, and only badly hand timed final times are given with no fractions.

It is only a RACE, who really cares how fast they ran?

I won't even get into the sometimes ludicrous turf times they post.

[Tom]

Come on guys, what do you want - GP has a grandstand on wheels!
You don't see that at any NYRA tracks. :D

[DanG]

CJ, I couldn’t agree more.

It’s just disgraceful and yet another example of track managements borderline contempt for their cliental. I’ve sent more mail to Stronach run tracks than almost all the others combined. Coincidence or trend it’s hard to say.

Please e-mail Gulfstream (Magna) with your dissatisfaction and /or praise if you wish. If we don’t speak up, who will?

BTW: Tom, once again you always have a great way of summing things up. :lol:

[cj]

I have emailed them. They never answer. I am always polite as well. Maybe Karl can get an answer.

[DanG]

I have emailed them. They never answer. I am always polite as well. Maybe Karl can get an answer.
True, they NEVER answer. (As far as I know)

A talked to Joe Henderson of the Tampa Tribune last year. He said readers have no idea the power they have with e-mail. Editors are driven by the response their articles generate.

I’m certainly not equating the two industries, but I always hold out hope (naive as it might be) that someone of consequence is reading their customers opinions. :bang:

[Alan Wight]

I e-mailed the president of Gulfstream last year and said that I would not be betting on GP until the timer issue was taken care of. I've kept my word.

NYRA doesn't seem to have the problems with timers that some other tracks do, but in my opinion running races in the fog, which they have done quite a bit this winter, is just as bad as a malfunctioning timer.

[DanG]

I e-mailed the president of Gulfstream last year and said that I would not be betting on GP until the timer issue was taken care of. I've kept my word.

NYRA doesn't seem to have the problems with timers that some other tracks do, but in my opinion running races in the fog, which they have done quite a bit this winter, is just as bad as a malfunctioning timer.
Good point Alan. :ThmbUp:

[kenwoodallpromos]

Please somebady tell me again where they found a stopwatch that will only time 1 horse? LOL!

[cj]

Please somebady tell me again where they found a stopwatch that will only time 1 horse? LOL!

Can anyone give me an English translation please?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Can anyone give me an English translation please?
Sorry! I was moving my right foot clockwise while trying to type in circles!

[Pace Cap'n]

Please somebady tell me again where they found a stopwatch that will only time 1 horse? LOL!

In a one-horse town.

[highnote]

In a one-horse town.


:D

[wes]

Can't find an ambidextrous chart writer!

wes

[karlskorner]

The north esculator to the 2nd floor has been "on again,off again" for the past 6/7 days. Add that to your complaints. The reason for hand timing three 1 mile turf races the past week or so is on a " need to know " basis.

[cj]

The north esculator to the 2nd floor has been "on again,off again" for the past 6/7 days. Add that to your complaints. The reason for hand timing three 1 mile turf races the past week or so is on a " need to know " basis.

I already know. It is called ineptitude. What is the point of the first part of your post, other than to act like a jackass?

Though I'm surprised I have to fill you in, the hand timed races were all on dirt this week. The malfunctioning timer flared up on turf earlier in the meet a few times.

[bigmack]

So I call em up. Getting ahold of anyone there telephonically is a herculean task in and of itself. I first get the racing office and start my inquiry. Guys first question is 'how do you know we've been hand timing?" Have a little snappy repartee with this cat and he transfers me over to the timing office.
Start gabbing with the guy in the timing office and acts like I'm calling with the CIA and hands the phone over to another guy who also works for Equibase. Nice guy, says that the sensors there are very sensitive and oddly enough they don't start them until just before the race. In a few cases it's been a matter of either an outrider or a groom standing in front or walking in front of one of the sensors :lol:

They obviously hand time everything and with the movement of the gate of late it's been cumbersome with the run-up though today they had the gate back and it was a bit easier. The timer who works for Equibase says he loves to hear from us guys out here.

Agent Mack, Out.

[Tom]

Need to know basis?????

Is this a racetrack of the CIA?

The only think I need to know, and I have known it since Beyer broke the timer story YEARS ago - GP is a hick, minor league track - always has been, always will be. A track that can't get the simplest thing like timing races is not one I will be playing. It is a joke. You can put lipstick on a pig, but is still a pig.

I think the long term results of Frankee Stronach are in - loser. I stay away from all of his tracks. And do not miss any of them.

[karlskorner]

The nice guy your probably spoke to was Toby Collet, the surly one was probably Richie "the beard", both hand time for Equibase. The explanation given you was for a layman, think about it, the timers are in front of the gate. I doubt if there were grooms on the track, the out riders and gate people are off to the side of the gate or behind it, there is no one standing around during the running of the race in front of the timers. The reason I threw in the esculator complaint was for the likes of the above listor who for unknown reasons to me hates Frank Stronach. "Shorty" (TLG) complained because during his 3 day visit last year one of the resturants wasn't opened, the so called "grandstand" received a couple of jibes from people who have not been here, but have reasons of their own like to complain. I cannot accept the reasoning given to you, but I will find out.

[bigmack]

I doubt if there were grooms on the track, the out riders and gate people are off to the side of the gate or behind it, there is no one standing around during the running of the race in front of the timers. The reason I threw in the esculator complaint was for the likes of the above listor who for unknown reasons to me hates Frank Stronach.
I hear what you're talking about with the Stronach deal but that's not my concern. From what I gathered from what Toby (if that's who I spoke with) mentioned is that there are many sensors and if anyone is in front of any of them it will throw a wrench in the whole timing process. So, if the outriders are in front of a sensor at a part of the track that the horses aren't even running within, it will render the teletimer kafoofoo. I could be wrong but that's my understanding of his explanation.

[cj]

I hear what you're talking about with the Stronach deal but that's not my concern. From what I gathered from what Toby (if that's who I spoke with) mentioned is that there are many sensors and if anyone is in front of any of them it will throw a wrench in the whole timing process. So, if the outriders are in front of a sensor at a part of the track that the horses aren't even running within, it will render the teletimer kafoofoo. I could be wrong but that's my understanding of his explanation.

I don't buy it. It never seems to happen at any of the big tracks, like those in New York, Kentucky, and Southern California.

[Indulto]

I don't buy it. It never seems to happen at any of the big tracks, like those in New York, Kentucky, and Southern California.CJ,
Supposedly, Ragozin has on-track oberservers who time races independently at all tracks they furnish sheets for.

Is that also true of Thorograph, or do they now use the Equibase feed for times and videos for ground loss?

Is it really possible to reconstruct accurate time from videos?

What do YOU do to adjust for suspicious times?

[cj]

CJ,
Supposedly, Ragozin has on-track oberservers who time races independently at all tracks they furnish sheets for.

Is that also true of Thorograph, or do they now use the Equibase feed for times and videos for ground loss?

Is it really possible to reconstruct accurate time from videos?

What do YOU do to adjust for suspicious times?

I have timed from video and found it to be pretty accurate. I'm sure it is just as accurate as hand timing at the track, if not more so. The problem is, I'm a pace guy, and when they hand time we don't get any fractions.

In 2007, this should not happen.

[BIG49010]

I have another bitch about the turf, where the hell in that tape of red is the actual finish line? It seems they make a judgement call here also, and by the way according to my bankroll they have been putting up the wrong horse!

[speedking]

CJ,
Supposedly, Ragozin has on-track oberservers who time races independently at all tracks they furnish sheets for.

Is that also true of Thorograph, or do they now use the Equibase feed for times and videos for ground loss?

Is it really possible to reconstruct accurate time from videos?

What do YOU do to adjust for suspicious times?

The last few years that Garden State Park racetrack was open there was an invitation only high rollers room pretty much set aside only for Rags sheet players. GS catered to them and supplied Rags people with video of numerous tracks for timing and trip purposes. I'm sure the sheetmeisters will deny this would ever happen, (part of the mystique of the sheets), but I was right there numerous times as they picked up video.

I don't know what the Thorograph group does now but they used to have a bunch of misfits trying to time and record trips at some of the east coast tracks. All in exchange for free sheets on a daily basis.(1 track only) That goes back some time (over 10 years), so anything is possible now.

speedking

[Valuist]

Re: their turf timing (or lack of it), I think this is an area that can be exploited by the better players. Those who keep notebooks, or spreadsheets w/data from each day can keep their own observations; how strung out was the field? Was the entire field bunched within 6 lenghts on the backside? Was the field unusually strong or weak for the given class level? A bit more work than normal, but potentially more profitable.

[cj]

Missed another one on the 14th, maybe Cupid got in the way. This one was at 6 furlongs.

To be fair, Oaklawn missed one recently also.

[Perlnalysis]

Gulfstream has had this problem for years and years. I remember back 6-8 years ago when YAGLI won an 11 furlong race and got his last furlong in 10 seconds flat. He was a good horse, but 10 seconds??? C'mon.

[bigmack]

I cannot accept the reasoning given to you, but I will find out.
How goes the quest?

[the little guy]

How goes the quest?


You think it's easy for Karl to dig up someone who will speak to him?

[bigmack]

The nice guy your probably spoke to was Toby Collet, the surly one was probably Richie "the beard", both hand time for Equibase. The explanation given you was for a layman, think about it, the timers are in front of the gate. I doubt if there were grooms on the track, the out riders and gate people are off to the side of the gate or behind it, there is no one standing around during the running of the race in front of the timers. The reason I threw in the esculator complaint was for the likes of the above listor who for unknown reasons to me hates Frank Stronach. "Shorty" (TLG) complained because during his 3 day visit last year one of the resturants wasn't opened, the so called "grandstand" received a couple of jibes from people who have not been here, but have reasons of their own like to complain. I cannot accept the reasoning given to you, but I will find out.
From the sounds of this post I figured he had an inside track. Don't tell me that his statement of a "need to know basis" meant he doesn't know and no one needs to know that he doesn't know. :rolleyes:

[Indulto]

From the sounds of this post I figured he had an inside track. Don't tell me that his statement of a "need to know basis" meant he doesn't know and no one needs to know that he doesn't know. :rolleyes:Sounds like a case of no-show business unlike a no-need-to-know business. :D

[cj]

It is only fair to mention Churchill seems to be inflicted with a case of GP disease when it comes to the timer lately. In the past week, there have been six races with some or all fractions missing.

[DanG]

It is only fair to mention Churchill seems to be inflicted with a case of GP disease when it comes to the timer lately. In the past week, there have been six races with some or all fractions missing.
Before the conspiracy theorists ignite their typewriters it’s a sheer coincidence considering their recent Magna alliance….right? :)

Curious CJ…

Related topic…I “project” fractional times in these circumstances when the BL are available (unlike the notorious ‘fog races), do you leave them null or take a leap of faith and apply an asterisk? I glanced at the charts and each CD recent timer error does have all the appropriate chart calls.

[highnote]

Dan,
Sorry to go off-topic, but I like your signature line.

Whenever I start punching in too many exotic combinations, I know I don't understand the race.

Wide diversification is not necessarily a prudent strategy in the exotic pools. :D

[cj]

Before the conspiracy theorists ignite their typewriters it’s a sheer coincidence considering their recent Magna alliance….right? :)

Curious CJ…

Related topic…I “project” fractional times in these circumstances when the BL are available (unlike the notorious ‘fog races), do you leave them null or take a leap of faith and apply an asterisk? I glanced at the charts and each CD recent timer error does have all the appropriate chart calls.

I don't try to project fractions.

[DanG]

Dan,
Sorry to go off-topic, but I like your signature line.

Whenever I start punching in too many exotic combinations, I know I don't understand the race.

Wide diversification is not necessarily a prudent strategy in the exotic pools. :D
S /John…

It’s funny you should say that because I started going over my pic-3 &4’s records last night and I’ve found the same thing. My ‘shotgun tickets and “insurance” tickets are under-performing my ‘Keys significantly.

In the last 6 months I’m + 29% [pre-rebate] when my mutli-race (3’s and 4’s) involves at least one single. I’m running the numbers now on the other ticket construction and early indications are it’s not as productive.

OK…back on topic!

[highnote]

That said, my three horse exacta boxes have always been my most profitable bets.

So I'm able to get the best three contenders, but it's hard to know the precise order of finish. If I add a fourth horse or do a part-wheel, that's where the trouble begins.

OK. Back on topic.

[cj]

Well, it didn't take long since the start of the meet to bring this back up.

The timer for the turf races still sucks. It is so poor on the fractions it almost defies belief.

[DanG]

Well, it didn't take long since the start of the meet to bring this back up.

The timer for the turf races still sucks. It is so poor on the fractions it almost defies belief.
Maybe they think were too wired on Franks energy drinks to notice! :bang:

http://www.franksenergy.com/images/girls.jpg

[Hajck Hillstrom]

True, they NEVER answer. (As far as I know):bang:Daniel, my brother, it is good to see you posting.

The only tracks that I've had any success with responses are Churchill and Keeneland. It seems to me that if track management acknowledges any suggestion, that they feel they will be held accountable down the road.

I've had situations locally that would shame the industry.

[Gibbon]

This is prime example why some choose to pay considerable sums monthly for “sheet” data. There is NO compromise for having an ‘on the ground’ trackmen to quickly notice discrepancies.

Every single handicapping program available on the internet uses the same originating data source – Equibase!

Custom data acquisition, inspection and real quality controls ensure sheets will continue to be a superior handicapping tool.






__________________________________
The goal is to transform data into information, and information into insight. ~ Carly Fiorina

[cj]

This is prime example why some choose to pay considerable sums monthly for “sheet” data. There is NO compromise for having an ‘on the ground’ trackmen to quickly notice discrepancies.

Every single handicapping program available on the internet uses the same originating data source – Equibase!

Custom data acquisition, inspection and real quality controls ensure sheets will continue to be a superior handicapping tool.


I think you are greatly overrating the "sheet" data. Any clown with a stopwatch can time the races on the replays and get the final time. You can also see where the gate is positioned and get the run up. The tough part is the fractions. Since neither of the sheet style products use fractions, it isn't an issue when comparing with other data.

I also don't think they have on track people at all tracks. The major ones, sure, but medium and below, I doubt it.

[Gibbon]

...overrating the "sheet" data. Any clown with a stopwatch... The trackmen I personally witnessed working at NYRA, Finger Lakes, Churchill and Keeneland are eminently competent. Knowing the internal management structure of all three sheet producers I feel confident this applies across the board.

...replays and get the final time... What about track surface maintenance/manipulation?

...tough part is the fractions... One out of three sheet providers do in fact juggle pace figs for what they are worth; if anything outside of need to lead types.

...major ones, sure, but medium and below, I doubt it. Yes, that’s a good thing since not much capital should be introduced into small pools.

[DanG]

Daniel, my brother, it is good to see you posting.

The only tracks that I've had any success with responses are Churchill and Keeneland. It seems to me that if track management acknowledges any suggestion, that they feel they will be held accountable down the road.

I've had situations locally that would shame the industry.
Happy New Year Hajck to you and yours! :ThmbUp:

Don’t leave out my beloved Tampa Bay Downs. Margo Flynn returns e-mails faster than Oscar Barrera used to run back claims. :jump:

[jotb]

Hello all:

I can't wait until the day we will be able to get accurate times just by adding some type of stop watch to the horse. They already have heart rate monitors attached to a horse so why not have a stop watch. Something like that can also help with beaten lengths instead of relying on the chart caller. I probably won't be around to see this happen but I believe in the future it will happen.

Joe

[point given]

Maybe they think were too wired on Franks energy drinks to notice! :bang:

http://www.franksenergy.com/images/girls.jpg

My buddy , ontrack, says frankie has been in town all week. He has been checking out his new slots in the south clubhouse daily. They are new and he keeps mumbling, " vhy 'er dey not yusing my new vones ? " Belinda, commen zie here, belinda VHY ? Don't worry frankie, your new Energy drink beach vil nock der socks uff ! Ay Caramba ! Frankie, der shtock ist in de shitter ! Now, Steven Crist in his DRF blog warns of more little gulfs on the horizon at a track near you. Frankies a genius, just ask him :lol:

[Gibbon]

...until the day we will be able to get accurate times... NOT in this lifetime! Horse players put up with every contemptuous treatment imaginable and still play. SA handle is healthy notwithstanding nearly impossible race conditions. We should boycott racing nationwide but nooooo – WE are all suckers.









________________________________
Never give a sucker an even break. ~ W. C. Fields

[cj]

Bump...Fountain of Youth.

So far this meet, they have not recorded fractional and/or final times for only three races this year. That is pretty good for Gulfstream. Now, however, you have to wonder how accurate they are when they can't get them right for one of the biggest races of the meet.

[russowen77]

You know it is wierd. I am a retired metrologist (real world test and measurements) and timing and event has to be one of the easiest tests imaginable and needs no human input, except it would be smart to have some hand held in case of catastrophic failure. Unless they are moving the runout beam all over the place someone has sure not bought the right equipment. It is not like extremely accurate timing signals are not broadcast all over the US and most of the world.

[Tom]

What a joke!
Between SA and GP, they can't get the two most basic things about racing correct - a track and a timer!

They should come to Finger Lakes and see how the CLASS tracks do it right. :lol::lol::lol:


Must be the PM money for the timers went to Franky's Kickapoo Joy Juice.

[classhandicapper]

S /John…

It’s funny you should say that because I started going over my pic-3 &4’s records last night and I’ve found the same thing. My ‘shotgun tickets and “insurance” tickets are under-performing my ‘Keys significantly.

In the last 6 months I’m + 29% [pre-rebate] when my mutli-race (3’s and 4’s) involves at least one single. I’m running the numbers now on the other ticket construction and early indications are it’s not as productive.

OK…back on topic!

Dan,

I rarely play multi-race exotics, but what you are saying is no shock to me. I've said this kind of thing over and over again when the issue has come up.

Most horses players play multi-race exotics TRYING TO HIT THE TICKET and NOT JUST BETTING THE GOOD VALUE COMBINATIONS. That's a mathematical mistake.

The idea that because the PICK "X" is greater than the parlay it represents value is the greatest mathematical fallacy in horse racing. I've explained and detailed that repeatedly, but most people can't grasp it.

When you hook up contenders "that are underlays" to each other across races all you are doing is bucking a greater take.

If we had the ability to calculate these things perfectly, we would find that even most of the best horseplayers out there bet a bunch of tickets with a negative expectation even if the sum of all their tickets has a positive expectation.

People bet multiple horses in each race they would never even consider betting to win because they are underlays and think that somehow hooking them together across races is going to represent value even though the take is higher. It's preposterous.

Bankroll control is an issue, but ideally you should only be betting tickets that contain combinations of horses that are overlays so that you can compound the value of them.

[DanG]

Dan,

I rarely play multi-race exotics, but what you are saying is no shock to me. I've said this kind of thing over and over again when the issue has come up.

The idea that because the PICK "X" is greater than the parlay it represents value is the greatest mathematical fallacy in horse racing. I've explained and detailed that repeatedly, but most people can't grasp it.

When you hook up contenders "that are underlays" to each other across races all you are doing is bucking a greater take.

If we had the ability to calculate these things perfectly, we would find that even most of the best horseplayers out there bet a bunch of tickets with a negative expectation even if the sum of all their tickets has a positive expectation.

People bet multiple horses in each race they would never even consider betting to win because they are underlays and think that somehow hooking them together across races is going to represent value even though the take is higher. It's preposterous.

Bankroll control is an issue, but ideally you should only be betting tickets that contain combinations of horses that are overlays so that you can compound the value of them.
I agree in theory Class, but not really in actual practice imo. In that quote I was trying to refer to “saving” wagers that don’t really reflect your original opinion.

Because a player includes animals that are “poor expectation” in isolation, doesn’t necessarily mean their poor wagers in sequence.

The 1st time starter in the mega-jackpot being a recent example. The eventual winner would not have bet this animal in one event (I assume), but the ripple effect of chaos that one “random” animal produces in multi-race bets is not easily calculated.

Also…An underrated aspect of the pick-x wagers is simply scores…

Scores are instant adrenaline boosts that help motivate gamblers to do the necessary tedious work. When a hardcore player wakes up with the “possibility” of 4+ figures it can help them out work their opponents and that also can’t be quantified on paper.

[Jeff P]

Maybe it's just the conspiracy theorist inside my head...

But given this problem (primarily isolated at Gulfstream) has been going on for years... and given that timing race fractions isn't rocket science...

Has anybody considered the possibility that somebody doesn't want accurate fractional times at Gulfstream made available?



-jp

.

[highnote]

If we had the ability to calculate these things perfectly, we would find that even most of the best horseplayers bet a bunch of tickets with a negative expectation even [though] the sum of all their tickets has a positive expectation.


I agree that many horseplayers bet too many combinations. However if the sum of the bets has a positive expectation then it is a good bet.

In the long run, you won't lose if all your bets have a positive expectation.

[highnote]

Has anybody considered the possibility that somebody doesn't want accurate fractional times at Gulfstream made available?


Ragozin wrote in his book that the times at Saratoga can not always be trusted. He said it is a "casual" meet.

Maybe the same holds true at GP and even Del Mar?

[classhandicapper]

I agree in theory Class, but not really in actual practice imo. In that quote I was trying to refer to “saving” wagers that don’t really reflect your original opinion.

Because a player includes animals that are “poor expectation” in isolation, doesn’t necessarily mean their poor wagers in sequence.

The 1st time starter in the mega-jackpot being a recent example. The eventual winner would not have bet this animal in one event (I assume), but the ripple effect of chaos that one “random” animal produces in multi-race bets is not easily calculated.

Also…An underrated aspect of the pick-x wagers is simply scores…

Scores are instant adrenaline boosts that help motivate gamblers to do the necessary tedious work. When a hardcore player wakes up with the “possibility” of 4+ figures it can help them out work their opponents and that also can’t be quantified on paper.

There are exceptions. I would include horses that represent poor betting value in combination with horses in other races that represent good value. However, I would never toss a horse like that in with a couple of other underlays in other races just because the ticket has a reasonable probability of coming in (unless for some reason I knew the multi-race pool was not bet similarly).

IMHO, in most cases you need at least 2 horses in each sequence to be good value for the whole ticket to be of good enough value to make bucking a higher take and withholding tax worthwhile.

I don't believe in going for scores just for the sake of making a score. Honestly though, there's no incentive that could get me to handicap dozens of races all over the country every day. I love racing and I love handicapping a race like yesterday's Fountain of Youth, but I don't love gambling, betting large sums, dealing with volatility, or handicapping non interesting races. It's hard WORK - which of course is why I rarely play multi-race bets to begin with.
;)

[john del riccio]

Maybe it's just the conspiracy theorist inside my head...

But given this problem (primarily isolated at Gulfstream) has been going on for years... and given that timing race fractions isn't rocket science...

Has anybody considered the possibility that somebody doesn't want accurate fractional times at Gulfstream made available?



-jp

.

jeff,

even after they "fixed" the running time, i still question the mile & final time in relation to the 3/4 time.

john

[alysheba88]

Maybe it's just the conspiracy theorist inside my head...

But given this problem (primarily isolated at Gulfstream) has been going on for years... and given that timing race fractions isn't rocket science...

Has anybody considered the possibility that somebody doesn't want accurate fractional times at Gulfstream made available?



-jp

.


Agree. This is the easiest solution imagineable. Computer chip in the horses. Would use for workouts and for actual races. But clearly powers that be do not want

[BillW]

Agree. This is the easiest solution imagineable. Computer chip in the horses. Would use for workouts and for actual races. But clearly powers that be do not want

Trakus type timing is no where near as precise (or accurate) as the old beam as far as the race goes. An improvement can be made on timing alsorans, but it would be incompatable with tracks that didn't use it.

[classhandicapper]

Occasional malfunctions and issues with the timing of turf races properly because of moving the rails in and out are understandable. But how can you screw up day to day races and especially high profile races so frequently. It's a bad joke.

And of course, we notice these things in high profile races like the FOY or when they are are extreme, but how many times are the races off by a couple of 1/5s here or there that we don't notice.

[alysheba88]

Trakus type timing is no where near as precise (or accurate) as the old beam as far as the race goes. An improvement can be made on timing alsorans, but it would be incompatable with tracks that didn't use it.

What I am saying is there is technology available that would solve this problem.

[alysheba88]

the tracks cant even agree on where a race officially starts!; ie the run up issue

[BillW]

What I am saying is there is technology available that would solve this problem.

What I'm trying to say is that the issue is dis-repair of the timing equipment, not incapability.

[karlskorner]

I still don't understand the problem. Today at GP "hand timed" the animals ran 3 - 7 ticks (avg.) higher than the published times, NORMAL, been that way since day one for me when taking in consideration the "run up". With the "dogs" out 72 feet the two 5f turf races turned into 6f, possibly 6 1/2f races considering the run up and outside posts.

Maybe it's the "internals" that bother people, guarantee me that the horse's "next out" internals will be the same as his last out or 2nd back and I can understand the problem.

[BillW]

What I'm trying to say is that the issue is dis-repair of the timing equipment, not incapability.

It's been reported that an outrider tripped the timer. Timers were working but incompetence none the less.

[DanG]

I still don't understand the problem.

Maybe it's the "internals" that bother people, guarantee me that the horse's "next out" internals will be the same as his last out or 2nd back and I can understand the problem.
Karl,

You must send your resume to Magna for the czar of damage control. You don’t see a problem with the internal times being whacked, just because… you don’t use them? :confused:

No one could ever say you’re not loyal to a fault.

[karlskorner]

I guess playing one track, learning everything I can about that track makes me loyal to CRC/GP. As to the "internals" being wacked out thats yours and others opinion, however, one thing for sure, I know that a horse's momentum starting 90 feet rather than 20 feet from the light is a lot faster to reach the 1/4 pole and possibly the 1/2 mile pole. I incorporate the published "internals" in my handicapping, but with the understanding as to where they started the race. As I have said many times over the past 9 years, it's a horse race, the next race you looking at has never been run before or will it ever be run again.

[JPinMaryland]

I liked it better when you played the veteran card...

[cj]

With the "dogs" out 72 feet the two 5f turf races turned into 6f, possibly 6 1/2f races considering the run up and outside posts.


That is probably the silliest thing you have ever posted. Even with the runup, they ran the race in under one minute.

Well, I take that back, I guess it is possible that both races contained the fastest horses of all time.

[robert99]

Trakus type timing is no where near as precise (or accurate) as the old beam as far as the race goes. An improvement can be made on timing alsorans, but it would be incompatable with tracks that didn't use it.

Bill,

Yes, in theory the beam is more accurate but only for the horse that breaks the beam. What handicappers are most interested in is sufficient accuracy, reliable and consistency in reporting accuracy and that data for all horses in the race. The beam provides none of that at best.

Trakus and Turftrax in UK, triangulate each horse to a positional accuracy of within 20mm (5/8 inch) - for 30 times each second. Latency of signal is near zero but the speed of the horse means that its position when racing can be about 0.8 feet out in geographical positional terms but only +/- 10 mm in relative terms to last measurement. What allowance is made for the half horse length where its nose hits the line before the transponder does is not known but is possibly set as a standard 4 feet. Each horse will have its distance actually run and individual sectionals far in advance of any eye guessed values.

Surely for progress to be made the other tracks come up to the standard of the best, not stagnate with the worst.

[john del riccio]

Bill,

Yes, in theory the beam is more accurate but only for the horse that breaks the beam. What handicappers are most interested in is sufficient accuracy, reliable and consistency in reporting accuracy and that data for all horses in the race. The beam provides none of that at best.

Trakus and Turftrax in UK, triangulate each horse to a positional accuracy of within 20mm (5/8 inch) - for 30 times each second. Latency of signal is near zero but the speed of the horse means that its position when racing can be about 0.8 feet out in geographical positional terms but only +/- 10 mm in relative terms to last measurement. What allowance is made for the half horse length where its nose hits the line before the transponder does is not known but is possibly set as a standard 4 feet. Each horse will have its distance actually run and individual sectionals far in advance of any eye guessed values.

Surely for progress to be made the other tracks come up to the standard of the best, not stagnate with the worst.

This makes too much sense, therefore it can never be adopted.

John

[russowen77]

As small and rugged as transponders are today you could easily mount two in each of the bridles. There is nothing new underthe sun here. And it is a great envirenment. Not much going on signal wise around a racetrack to possible interfer. I am clueless why they don't have some base standards.

[Tom]

Unitl someone shows how this will improve ROI, it will never take hold.
Racing people speak one language - money.

[classhandicapper]

Unitl someone shows how this will improve ROI, it will never take hold.
Racing people speak one language - money.

I think you are making a very important point (perhaps without realizing it).

Because so many handicappers are exclusively "time oriented", they see having faulty time information as a major problem. That's not the case if you use other methods. Then the errors and problems are actually an advantage because all the "time oriented" handicappers make the same mistakes.

When I watched the FOY and saw the first quarter, I didn't immediately assume the first quarter was off because of the timing. I could see that the horses were bing used to get position and I knew they weren't slow horses. So I knew the pace wasn't slow. That's it.

Had we never found out about the timing issue, I would not have considered that a slow pace. I would have simpy assumed there was a wind, the run up was shorter that usual, the timer malfunctioned, that section of the track was slower than the rest of it because of maintenance etc....

My thinking about the horses would have reflected reality despite the flaws in the timing. The same is true in all the other possible situations I identified (and I believe these sorts of things happen quite often).

In addition, even if the time information was perfect, if everyone had it, I doubt there would be much value in it.

[DanG]

When I watched the FOY and saw the first quarter, I didn't immediately assume the first quarter was off because of the timing. I could see that the horses were bing used to get position and I knew they weren't slow horses. So I knew the pace wasn't slow. That's it.

Very true and what I found interesting was how Larry Collmus never picked up on it. Even mentioning the “slow pace” around the far turn. With the thousands of races he has witnessed and failing to notice horses being rushed early was…curious.

I’ve heard Durkin & Vic S for example make note of bizarre times and we all know Trevor never acknowledges the clock.
In addition, even if the time information was perfect, if everyone had it, I doubt there would be much value in it.
I can’t agree with you here Class. This assumes everyone applies the data the same way and as this board proves everyday…that’s not the case.

[robert99]

Its the time that tells your eyes what they have just seen.

[classhandicapper]

I can’t agree with you here Class. This assumes everyone applies the data the same way and as this board proves everyday…that’s not the case.

I understand the point you are making, but quite often an edge comes from having either better information or some other insights in applying it better. If you simultaneously upgrade everyone's information I don't see where it helps anyone. The people that had an edge with the faulty information because they had some other insights will still be in the same relative position.

[classhandicapper]

Its the time that tells your eyes what they have just seen.

IMO, it actually works both ways.

Because of all the complexities of calculating accurate pace and speed figures (FOY is just one example) I think we have to admit that much of the time our figures are "estimates" of time. If you look at various high quality sources of figures all the differences prove the point.

That's why I always say that numeric tools and visual/comparative tools compliment each other.

Human beings can't see time and performance perfectly, but we can't measure time perfectly either. However, we can sometimes visually and subjectively determine that the numbers don't make sense when we know the horses well and have watched the race. We can also look at the clock and numbers for verification of what we saw when we aren't sure about the horse's records and abilities.

Looking at horses from two directions is extra work, but if you are really tying to understand performance I think each technique fills the gaps in the other and puts you in the best possible position of coming to the correct conclusion.

[Cratos]

Its the time that tells your eyes what they have just seen.

I agree with you because the time of a horse race is the reference point where the handicapper begins the analysis, but if the time is faulty the handicapper conclusions will probably be faulty because you can’t draw a true conclusion from a false premise.

[robert99]

I agree with you because the time of a horse race is the reference point where the handicapper begins the analysis, but if the time is faulty the handicapper conclusions will probably be faulty because you can’t draw a true conclusion from a false premise.

Not often at any rate. ;) If the time is faulty, then your eyes will tell you that something does not quite add up - the Colombo moment. The time and the race action that time would indicate are at odds and both have to tie up together. If either does not, no corroboration - so then there is something needing to be further bottomed out.

So you time the video and find it's the track timer that's out.
It happens all the "time" in Ireland and France.

[classhandicapper]

Randy Moss writes on an NTRA blog (http://www.ntra.com/blog.aspx?blogid=2&year=2008&month=2&day=26):

Gulfstream's newest clockings appear to have been made from finish pole-to-finish pole, as one might expect for a 1 1/8-mile race on a track 1 1/8 miles in circumference. The problem is that Gulfstream's oval isn't exactly 1 1/8 miles, as advertised. When the retooled oval was laid out in 2005 at the time of Gulfstream's massive renovation project, a measuring error was made resulting in the dirt track being slightly longer than 1 1/8 miles in circumference. Thus when 1 1/8-mile races are hand-timed at Gulfstream from finish pole-to- finish pole, the resulting clockings are about .50 seconds too slow. This discrepancy was confirmed Tuesday by Teleview Racing Patrol, which laid out the Gulfstream timing system. Because of the error in circumference, Teleview says timing for 1 1/8 races actually begins at a special timing beam placed 17 feet after the finish pole. (Videotaped replays of the Fountain of Youth show the outrider who triggered the beam positioned next to the outer rail at about that point.) Other distances are timed in a normal fashion, since the position of pole markers around the track compensates for the extra 17 feet. Hettel and his crew undoubtedly hand-timed the Fountain of Youth the way one would expect it to be timed, and I have no doubt that what appeared on their stopwatches was acceptably close to the actual time from finish post-to-finish post. But if you want to compare the Fountain of Youth with the earlier 1 1/8-mile race that day, or any other 1 1/8-mile race during the Gulfstream meeting, or if you want fractional and final clockings that don't represent an additional .50 seconds traveled, you'll need another set of timings that begin at the actual timing beam. So here you go. That's right – yet another set of times.

[Cratos]

Not often at any rate. ;) So you time the video and find it's the track timer that's out.It happens all the "time" in Ireland and France.

You have made the best suggestion of any in this thread. We live in a high-tech electronic world and there isn't any reason like you have suggested that the video of the FOY race couldn't be timed for a race time verification.

[Tom]

Isn't that what everyone has been doing?

[classhandicapper]

Isn't that what everyone has been doing?

Did you read the note from Randy Moss?

GP is not even 1 1/8. :lol:

[thespaah]

GP isn't the only track with timer problems, OP's 5th on saturday was hand-timed and the value posted doesn't appear kosher either.

JohnLike when the timer at OP wasnt quite working right when Althea won the AR Derby..They timed her last furlong in 11 1/5th

[cnollfan]

Like when the timer at OP wasnt quite working right when Althea won the AR Derby..They timed her last furlong in 11 1/5th

Any horse that finishes a 1 1/8 mile race that swiftly deserves to be the favorite in the Kentucky Derby, don't you think ? :>)

[Tom]

No. Takes far more than that. If he run the same early in the Derby, he will be about a mile back as they turn for home.

[BIG49010]

Anybody have a time for the last at GP on the 12th, it was 5/8ths on grass.

[cj]

It never ends. No wonder the place is such a joke in the racing business now.

[DanG]

Anybody have a time for the last at GP on the 12th, it was 5/8ths on grass.
Off the tape it’s…

23.68, 46.24, 57.76 :rolleyes: (36 foot rails)

23.68 is downright ridiculous… (even mentioned by the announcer), so I assume they scraped the entire lot of them and will wait for 95 e-mails to publish a time.

Must be another outrider all hopped up on ‘Energy drinks tripping the timers again. :faint:

[john del riccio]

Off the tape it’s…

23.68, 46.24, 57.76 :rolleyes: (36 foot rails)

23.68 is downright ridiculous… (even mentioned by the announcer), so I assume they scraped the entire lot of them and will wait for 95 e-mails to publish a time.

Must be another outrider all hopped up on ‘Energy drinks tripping the timers again. :faint:

yet another race I completely ignored the time and made the figs bases soley on the horses.

john

[cj]

yet another race I completely ignored the time and made the figs bases soley on the horses.

john

That is pretty much all you can do at GP. The clock, especially on turf, can't be trusted, ever.

[john del riccio]

That is pretty much all you can do at GP. The clock, especially on turf, can't be trusted, ever.

cj,

that mdn75k at GP on grass yesterday certyainly raised an eyebrow....

john

[cj]

Gulfstream continues to set new low standards for timing races.

On the 10th, there was a 6f dirt race run where only a final time is reported. On the 13th, a 6.5f dirt race and a 7.5f turf race have no fractions. They managed to screw up both surfaces within 25 minutes of each other.

Some things never change. Nice job GP!

[levinmpa]

I can only hope that Hialeah Park will somehow be able wrestle away the January - end of March prime dates in 2011 or 2012. After what Magna has done to ruin Gulfstream in so many ways, I would like to see their meeting moved to the less significant April/May dates once Hialeah has fully recovered. I used to look forward to the Gulfstream meeting, but the reconfiguration of the track to 1 1/8 miles is a disaster as far as I'm concerned. I can't play Gulfstream at the moment due to the Mid-Atlantic/Tracknet dispute, but it certainly isn't near the top of my list of favorite tracks to play. I much prefer Tampa Bay Downs in the Winter months.

[46zilzal]

The timer is based upon electronic beams at each point of call. They often screw up but there should be a back up hand timer available. Once you practice a bit, the hand timing is usually within a couple of hundreths of the electronic timing.

If that is unavailable we have gone to the tape and timed it directly based upon frames per second which is a better approximation than nothing.

The beams get screwed up with condensation, dirt, snow but none of that would be a problem in the balmy Floridian weather now would it?

[cj]

The timer is based upon electronic beams at each point of call. They often screw up but there should be a back up hand timer available. Once you practice a bit, the hand timing is usually within a couple of hundreths of the electronic timing.

If that is unavailable we have gone to the tape and timed it directly based upon frames per second which is a better approximation than nothing.

The beams get screwed up with condensation, dirt, snow but none of that would be a problem in the balmy Floridian weather now would it?

It certainly seems to happen there a lot, probably more than everywhere else combined.

[46zilzal]

It certainly seems to happen there a lot, probably more than everywhere else combined.
Incompetence then, as the protocols are universal

[Robert Fischer]

maybe somebody should start a service selling accurate GP fractions :p

[46zilzal]

maybe somebody should start a service selling accurate GP fractions :p
you could actually do that from the tape....Like I said it is not 100% accurate but far better than NOTHING. or a guess.

[Robert Fischer]

you could actually do that from the tape....Like I said it is not 100% accurate but far better than NOTHING. or a guess.

yea, and I do as needed. I use a split-lap online stopwatch from http://www.online-stopwatch.com/split-timer/

then I just open and resize two browser windows side by side (one replay, one stopwatch)

at first you're just clicking the "Split" button for every pole you see(or think you see), but you get the hang of which poles are which and when they will come up.

It's not a bad thing to do once or twice anyway if it's something that is totally unfamiliar.

[ezpace]

You'll keep that warm an fuzzy feeling gamibling at GP

as long as you don't bet over a deuce TOTAL per race.

Try to get some info on what testing facilities GP uses.

I did . It's was like pulling teeth.

[ezpace]

race TODAY ?? IF SO , what fractions did you get please.

5th Race

Next Post 3:43 Off: 3:13 | 1 1/16 Miles (Turf) | 3 Year Olds | Maiden Special Weight | Purse: $35,000

# Horse Jockey Weight Win Place Show
2 Ultimate Class Rose J 122 17.20 9.20 6.80
6 Pearly Blue Castro E 122 5.20 4.00
5 Little Red Rider Garcia Alan 122 10.80


Times in 5ths: :233 :481 1:123 1:354 1:42

Times in 100ths: :23.78 :48.24 1:12.60 1:35.99 1:42.08

Scratched: Hot Cappucino and Kate's Holiday

Also ran: Vee, I Dreamt I Was, Precious Penny, Quiet by Seven, Glorious Memory, Bahama Bound, Blazing Honor, Lady Amira and Karen Sue's Kitten

Winning Trainer: Weaver George - Owner: Smart Choice Stable

$2 Exacta (2-6) Paid $87.60

$1 Trifecta (2-6-5) Paid $886.00

$1 Superfecta (2-6-5-1) Paid $3,623.70

$2 Daily Double (2-2) Paid $249.60 Daily Double Pool $28,573

$1 Pick 3 (6-2-2) 3 Correct Paid $349.40 Pick 3 Pool $30,561

[Tom]

Much easier to just play a track that understands horse racing.
So many tracks, why waste your time on one like Gulfstream?

[proximity]

while we are on this sad topic again, was there ever any closure to tejas kidd's complaint to the texas racing commission about the timing of races at texas tracks???

i know i saw a race at hou the other night with like a 29 and change first quarter......and that will probably result in one of the lowest moss figures of the year. :rolleyes:

[cj]

while we are on this sad topic again, was there ever any closure to tejas kidd's complaint to the texas racing commission about the timing of races at texas tracks???

i know i saw a race at hou the other night with like a 29 and change first quarter......and that will probably result in one of the lowest moss figures of the year. :rolleyes:

That will never make it into the charts. It will be flagged by Equibase as ridiculous (my word, not theirs) and they will request a corrected time. HOU will either make one up or there will not be one posted.

[proximity]

That will never make it into the charts. It will be flagged by Equibase as ridiculous (my word, not theirs) and they will request a corrected time. HOU will either make one up or there will not be one posted.

you're correct cj. it was thursday and they didn't list fractions in the charts for races 7 and 8..... although this is probably a better alternative than hou just making some times up!!

[ezpace]

Much easier to just play a track that understands horse racing.
So many tracks, why waste your time on one like Gulfstream?
***********************8
GEESH ,, SO , it's TAM,FG, AQU(sparingly) and occasional Turf Route punts

at SORRY ASS GP an SA When they have a 8+horses alw/stk race.