Is Polytrack the Equitrack of the 21st Century?

[Valuist]

Last year we heard all the propaganda. The Cincinnati area also was blessed w/a mild winter. The weather isn't cooperating this year and reality is setting in. Poly may work well in the U.K. where it doesn't get nearly as cold, but its appearing not be "all-weather" judging from the track Friday night. The breakdowns are back up, the track was strongly speed biased, and the kickback was as strong as it ever was last year. TP still has had weather related cancellations, although I suspect some of them were surface related. At this point, are they really better off than the old surface?

[DanG]

It’s very early in the transformation to pass judgment.

I’m on the record as saying years from now we will wonder why we didn’t move to these surfaces long ago.

For the record…did you also state your case during Arlington, Del Mar, etc…etc…with their rash of breakdowns?

There seems to be a disproportioned response when artificial surfaces have issues as compared to say the fatal issues Arlington or Del Mar had. (During “normal” temperatures.)

Aren’t we really talking about should thoroughbred racing be conducted in anarchic temperatures? Can you name a track and field event where the athletes are led to the start minutes before post and asked to perform full blast in sub freezing conditions?

I was switching channels while watching Gulfstream today and watched a race from Beulah Park. I thought I was watching a stock car race from the 50’s. Too cold to apply water so the “kick back” was a rooster tail of Ohio earth that had to be seen to be believed.

These horses, jockeys, owners and we gamblers deserve the ongoing research and development the racing surface is currently going through.

I’m not lashing out at you Valuist, we will both find out years from now the ultimate impact. It just strikes me as odd when on a whole the artificial surfaces have drastically cut down injury and yet when issues do occur, people take issue.

[Kelso]

Aren’t we really talking about should thoroughbred racing be conducted in anarchic temperatures?



All elements of the industry should be talking very seriously about it. My personal, completely unscientific, view is that it's not right to bet races one wouldn't want to view in person from an outdoor seat. I don't think horses should be made to run, and sweat, in temperatures below 60 degrees, or thereabouts; and I don't really care that they do it of their own volition on the plains.

I'd like to see the industry get together nation-wide to arrange more winter racing dates in the south (that doesn't mean Kentucky) and in California ... and racing (with more dates) in only the more northern states from late spring through early autumn. (Nothing wrong with some overlap at the beginnings/conclusions of meets in both regions.)

This is the kind of issue that gives PETA-type whackos disproportionate leverage with the morons and wusses in Congress.

[PaceAdvantage]

I was switching channels while watching Gulfstream today and watched a race from Beulah Park. I thought I was watching a stock car race from the 50’s. Too cold to apply water so the “kick back” was a rooster tail of Ohio earth that had to be seen to be believed.

Yeah, isn't it crazy the amount of dirt being kicked up at Beulah....no water is right! If I were an owner, there's no way I'd let my horse run in conditions like that.

[cj]

It is too early to say polytrack is bad yet. However, it was way, way, way to early to be saying how great it was last year. It was being stuffed down our throats like this perfect surface, which it obviously is not.

One thing it is not is dirt. It isn't even close.

[JPinMaryland]

It gets plenty cold in England. Just dont know if they run horses when it's that cold.

[46zilzal]

The majority of T-bred flat racing is NOT in the cooler months.
Usually the major meets are from April to late September.

[Valuist]

All elements of the industry should be talking very seriously about it. My personal, completely unscientific, view is that it's not right to bet races one wouldn't want to view in person from an outdoor seat. I don't think horses should be made to run, and sweat, in temperatures below 60 degrees, or thereabouts; and I don't really care that they do it of their own volition on the plains.

I'd like to see the industry get together nation-wide to arrange more winter racing dates in the south (that doesn't mean Kentucky) and in California ... and racing (with more dates) in only the more northern states from late spring through early autumn. (Nothing wrong with some overlap at the beginnings/conclusions of meets in both regions.)

This is the kind of issue that gives PETA-type whackos disproportionate leverage with the morons and wusses in Congress.

Re: temperatures and horses, whenever I hear trainers talk about ideal temps for horses to race in, they say cool to chilly weather (maybe 40s to 50s) is best. They absolutely hate hot conditions. If one if solely concerned about the horses welfare, then it would make more sense to cancel in temperatures of 90 of higher.

[DanG]

Re: temperatures and horses, whenever I hear trainers talk about ideal temps for horses to race in, they say cool to chilly weather (maybe 40s to 50s) is best. They absolutely hate hot conditions. If one if solely concerned about the horses welfare, then it would make more sense to cancel in temperatures of 90 of higher.
Agree 110%...

Both are extreme conditions with negative potential. Horses absolutely prefer cooler weather. Calder in August and Turfway etc in February are both not in the horse or the rider’s best interest.

[Premier Turf Club]

One of my partners had the opportunity to speak with Jerry Bailey at the Racing Symposium in Phoenix this past December. Having worked horses over all the artificial surfaces, Bailey offered the opinion that Tapeta was the best of them all.

FWIW.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Let me know if anybady hears about any studies analyzing kickback at the height of horse or jockey' noses.

[rastajenk]

Turfway has canceled only twice that I can tell; a weekend when it was sub-zero with 25 mph winds. I doubt if the surface itself was as much a factor as the weather in general. One thing they haven't experienced, which they used to frequently when I worked there, was running a race or two, having the jocks pelted with frozen clods, sitting through a 30-minute delay while hard-up little-used riders are rounded up, and then canceling the rest of the card anyway, and going through all the rain-check and program returns and everything else that pisses off the on-track patrons. Not to mention pissing off all the off-track or internet bettors that have bought materials and studied up for nothing.

February at Turfway is just as likely to be 40 degrees as it is 0 degrees. This is the best chance for many owners to stay afloat. If you cut out winter racing, you're eliminating many people from the pool of owners. There are many types of related workers that need year-round employment. It is overly simplistic to say we should cut back on winter racing.

[Kelso]

This is the best chance for many owners to stay afloat. If you cut out winter racing, you're eliminating many people from the pool of owners. There are many types of related workers that need year-round employment.

It is overly simplistic to say we should cut back on winter racing.



And it is shamefully callous to assert that such rationalizations in any way justify abusing the animals. Every connection has options, starting with the occupation he chooses to pursue. The horses do not.

[sjk]

I guess you have spent time in the barns at Turfway in the winter and observed the care the horses received and judged that they are abused.

When and whose barn?

[Kelso]

I guess you have spent time in the barns at Turfway in the winter and observed the care the horses received and judged that they are abused.

When and whose barn?

Ya guessed wrong. I wrote of abuse on the track .... running full-out and working up a sweat in winter temperatures .... not in anyone's barn. Suggest you make future guesses in context.

[sjk]

Bad guesses all around.

[rastajenk]

I doubt if there's any evidence that horses running in winter temperatures, which is a vague concept to begin with, is abusive. How 'bout those Clydesdales pulling a beerwagon through the snow in Budweiser ads? Abusive? Horses running through the mountain snow in Busch ads? Carriage horses working every day, not just once every two or three weeks? PETA material? I doubt it. Seriously.

[Kelso]

I doubt if there's any evidence that horses running in winter temperatures, which is a vague concept to begin with, is abusive. How 'bout those Clydesdales pulling a beerwagon through the snow in Budweiser ads? Abusive? Horses running through the mountain snow in Busch ads? Carriage horses working every day, not just once every two or three weeks? PETA material? I doubt it. Seriously.




You might be correct, but I'd like to see some expert equne vet conclusions on the question. In the meantime, I don't think sweating in cold weather is healthy for any animals. Could be wrong, but I gotta see it.

As to the clydesdales and carriage horses, I don't think they're worked anywher near as hard (concentrated) as a racehorse is. I doubt they break a sweat, and if they do I think that would be the sort of thing of which PETA would make (or has already made?) an issue.

[robert99]

St Moritz horses have coped since 1901.

"But the events that really set St. Moritz apart from other resorts happen in February on the frozen lake. On the first three Sundays of February, the event known as White Turf is the center of attention. For three days, 25,000 visitors flock to St. Moritz to watch animals and jockeys take horse racing to the extreme by battling it out on the frozen lake. Numerous competitions highlight the event, which offers the highest purse in horse racing in the entire world. Exclusive to St. Moritz is the "skijoring"--a riderless horse tows a skier around the track. This is truly a unique spectacle that has to be seen to be believed"

[Kelso]

[QUOTE=robert99]

St Moritz horses have coped since 1901.
<snip>
watch animals and jockeys take horse racing to the extreme

[QUOTE]

I think these two statements are contradictory.

Are the horses raised for the effort and conditions to which they are exposed? Are they thoroughbreds?

Any expert equine vet conclusions as to how WELL they have "coped?" (I wonder at how casually you toss off that word. If someone was beating your ass to sweat and slip ... and very possibly bust your legs thereby ... accross a sheet of ice, would you consider yourself to be "coping?")

[robert99]

K,

These are thorougbreds.
They wear special shoes for grip.
Vets are in attendance.
If horses were suffering at all, it certainly would not be allowed to remain an annual event.
The horses cope and have coped for over a century - full stop.
Horses have been used to pull sleds and carriages through snow and ice for millennia.