How To Improve Horse Racing

[Cangamble]

Short term, more transparency when it comes to medications. I also think medication rules should be the same everywhere in North America. I think Bute should be allowed...wherever Bute isn't used, I think it leads to assortments of drugs being used and more games are being played.
Also from a horse owners standpoint, vets have a cash cow where bute is illegal.
Does anyone know of a study of horse deaths on tracks that allow bute versus those that do not?

Anyway, long term racing is under big pressure. Here is the problem and my solution:
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2007/02/thoughts-on-track-takeoutsuper-bowl.html

[kenwoodallpromos]

Requiring full medical records follow the horse and be available to the track and state takes care of transparency.
When 4-8% is the takeout, who pays for the tellers, assistant starters, stewards, track office workers, janitors, and others in a labor-heavy sport? If you want raing wth live audiences and high-strung animals you have to have live employees.

[Cangamble]

My theory is simple. If you lower the take outs like this, the actual money made by the track will be actually higher because it will attract other gamblers.

People have X amount of dollars disposable to lose during any specific period of time on gambling.

The way it is now, with being able to paly 100 races plus a day, the gambler gets tapped out quicker, and disillusioned overall.

Does it matter to a track if they get the gamblers $200 bucks over 10 races or over 40 races if it is bet on the same day?

[SMOO]

My theory is simple. If you lower the take outs like this, the actual money made by the track will be actually higher because it will attract other gamblers.

People have X amount of dollars disposable to lose during any specific period of time on gambling.

The way it is now, with being able to paly 100 races plus a day, the gambler gets tapped out quicker, and disillusioned overall.

Does it matter to a track if they get the gamblers $200 bucks over 10 races or over 40 races if it is bet on the same day?

But won't that make the already surly tellers even more surly? :rolleyes:

[Cangamble]

Many big gamblers gamble at home, and this whole idea is to get the poker bettors to become race horse gamblers. And if my way is eventually adopted, there will be no reason for a bettor to go to a rebate shop.
The worst thing for the track is that they will need more automated tellers. Automated tellers don't get surly.

[jotb]

Short term, more transparency when it comes to medications. I also think medication rules should be the same everywhere in North America. I think Bute should be allowed...wherever Bute isn't used, I think it leads to assortments of drugs being used and more games are being played.
Also from a horse owners standpoint, vets have a cash cow where bute is illegal.
Does anyone know of a study of horse deaths on tracks that allow bute versus those that do not?

Anyway, long term racing is under big pressure. Here is the problem and my solution:
http://cangamble.blogspot.com/2007/02/thoughts-on-track-takeoutsuper-bowl.html

Hello Cangamble:

I believe Bute is used everywhere. Each racetrack may have different rules. I know at Charles Town bute my be administered after the horse is entered to race, but in no event less than 24 hours before post time of the race in which the horse is entered.

Joe

[Cangamble]

Hello Cangamble:

I believe Bute is used everywhere. Each racetrack may have different rules. I know at Charles Town bute my be administered after the horse is entered to race, but in no event less than 24 hours before post time of the race in which the horse is entered.

Joe
I know horses train on bute, but each track has different doses they allow and different cut off times. In Canada you never see a B on a racing for for Bute, but you see it for Thistledown and Churchill for example.

I used to own horses, and vet bills are reduced dramatically at tracks where Bute rules are lax.

[robert99]

Knowledge that any drugs are accepted in a sport as a matter of course puts many potential gamblers off. The complexity of horseracing compared to table game gambling, sports and slots puts the remaining potential horseracing gambers off completely. UK horserace betting has dropped from 90% to 40% over the last decade and that is with horseracing officially drug free.

[Cangamble]

With bookmakers and Betfair in the UK, how do they get their numbers in the UK?
Also, has the gross amount been affected, and by how much? In other words 90% of 1 billion is less than 40% of 2.5 billion.

[alydar]

A 4% takeout is just not realistic. A card game is a lot different than running a race track. The costs require a much bigger takeout. It will never happen.
Not because the tracks are stubborn or greedy, but for the same reason that no one sells a product for a loss. It would be nice to buy below cost, but it isn't going to happen.

[robert99]

With bookmakers and Betfair in the UK, how do they get their numbers in the UK?
Also, has the gross amount been affected, and by how much? In other words 90% of 1 billion is less than 40% of 2.5 billion.

In UK, figures come from various sources - company tax returns, Government publications on the Gambling Bill, University reports such as from Nottingham Trent and the international IFHA figures.

Bookmakers take around 97% of betting in UK. Betfair is a minnow.
Total betting is increasing at about £6B a year from a level of £42B pa which is projected to grow to £60B pa. So the total pot is not growing fast enough to cover the drop in racing betting interest - estimated at -35% loss in real terms.

Figures for modern internet betting are even worse for horseracing (sports £9B, poker £5B, lottery £5B and horses £2B pa). The presumed younger customer base using internet only, bet less than 10% on horses.

The racing authorities in UK only argue endlessly about dividing up the shrinking pot. They have no concept that the sport has to be actively marketed and carfll explained to potential new blood, and refuse to have any dealings with handicappers / punters or give them any representation.
Businesses that do not listen to their customers are doomed to extinction.

[Suff]

Eliminate and/or severely restrict private trainers.

People will scream to high heavens it can't be done? I say the game is dead until its done.


The game cannot operate without a subsidy. Without slots it is an unprofitable business model. The model needs to be changed. Forget new bets, and all the cosmetic bullshit. This game needs a profit center....and it needs to find a place within its structure to have margin. Cut out that layer....

Not only will it infuse cash that can be used for many things, among them, a lower take out... But it will get control of cheating completely and once and for all.


People will argue with me... But those Ladies and Gentlemen training horses have bled the game long enough. Not all....but a significant chunk.

NO MORE PRIVATE TRAINERS.

[beertapper]

i'm going to sound like a total newbie here, but how does a private trainer differ from "regular" trainers and how do they hurt the game?

[Suff]

i'm going to sound like a total newbie here, but how does a private trainer differ from "regular" trainers and how do they hurt the game?

When you go to the Hospital they have a slate of Doctors you can pick from. They all work for the Hospital....for a salary. The good ones make more than the average ones....

At the track...same thing. Eliminate Trainers from getting 10% of the purse, and from charging day rates. Further; all the services such as Vet and medication can be negoiatied at bulk rates. All that money can be infused back into the game.

Owners can still select a trainer, just like I can select a Doctor ( if he is accepting patients).

There are more direct benefits but it does'nt make any sense for me to itemize them , for two reasons.

People don't want to change the game

NY is putting in slots so that after bleeding the game into oblivion by abusing Horse players, they will now bleed the game into oblivion using slot players.


I did'nt make a bet yesterday. That's the first Sunday in a looong time I did'nt at least put in a double. I think I'm done betting horses. I've had enough.

[rastajenk]

So, like, if you have a promising 3yo, and you foresee a path to the Derby that goes from Gulfstream to Turfway to Keeneland, then to Churchill, you'd be using four different house trainers in a span of 3-4 months? Or, to make it more general than a specific Derby trail, you have to pick a trainer every time you ship?

[Suff]

So, like, if you have a promising 3yo, and you foresee a path to the Derby that goes from Gulfstream to Turfway to Keeneland, then to Churchill, you'd be using four different house trainers in a span of 3-4 months? Or, to make it more general than a specific Derby trail, you have to pick a trainer every time you ship?

I was trembling when I posted that Idea ( and I have 10 others just as radical)...

Because posters can "cross examine" it.....and because I don't have all the answers I can be had......

Huge fundemental changes need more than one great mind!:D

But to address your question.....many times people go for surgery at a hospital where their Doctor is not on Staff. Its common. Your Doctor attends to you at that Hospital under the policies and procedures they have.

--------------------------------------------------------

While your situation is realistic.....its not the norm. 9 out of 10 race horses are not Derbry or stakes contenders
-------------------------------------------------------------------

I'd like a laugh. Someone tell me they believe the following conversation took place:


In an office tower in midtown Manhattan , one stock broker turns to another and says:

#1 "I'm going to get a Hot Dog and Coffee for lunch and bet a race at Belmont at the OTB on the corner"

#2 "Really! Thats different....why?

#3 "They have a detention barn now"

__________________________________________________ __________

DO NOT BELIEVE FOR A MINUTE that the detention barn was about the bettor...

[rastajenk]

I agree in principle that there is plenty of room for big changes in our game. And I agree, obviously, that most horses don't ship like Derby contenders, that was merely an extreme example. But many do ship, within a circuit or a region.

Your suggestion, not surprisingly, smacks of...dare I say, socialism???? :D Or maybe dog racing. :cool:

[Suff]

.

Your suggestion, not surprisingly, smacks of...dare I say, socialism???? :D Or maybe dog racing. :cool:

I really hope, for your sake, that the laughing emoticon indicates you were kidding....


Do you know what socialism is? The vast majority of conservatives on this board frequently confirm one stereotype of themselves. .

My suggestion is pure unadulterated Capitalism. There is a layer of the model that needs to be eliminated. That's not my fault. As a businessman I look at business unemotionally. Forget whether is fair...or even ideal. Its required.

Socialism is subisidizing purses with Slot machines....

Its very important to look at things in business terms.

How can a trainer that is 3 for 82 be in business? When you do that....you must ask yourself the next question....,, should he be in business? Is the business model structured properly that a 3 for 82 trainer can operate?

So you look at that and see where all that lost money is....

Since you have been eager to see the error of my suggestion, and somehow see socialism in it..., perhaps you would be willing to answer a question?. Why are the New York Horseman getting a guarantied 7.25% of the slot take? Huh? Riddle me that.


Anyway... Really doesn't matter to me as I decided that I am done. I won't be betting any longer.....and as I wean myself off betting, I'll be weaning myself off pace advantage as well.

So it really doesn't matter......I'm done with Horse Racing.

[shanta]

So it really doesnt matter......I'm done with Horse Racing.

WHAT???

I really hope that this was said kidding Suff. Reagrdless stay cool man :ThmbUp:

Richie

[Suff]

WHAT???

I really hope that this was said kidding Suff. Reagrdless stay cool man :ThmbUp:

Richie

Richie

The thread is about how to improve horse racing. I'd like to keep it that.

I'm not angry (angrier?). I'm OK. I"ve actually had three good months at the windows....., meaning I was dead even December, slightly down January and I'm down $200 for february. I bet $30-$100 a race...and I bet everyday...and I bet almost every race at NY. So I'm not burned up at the windows and hating the game....


I am upset at the game as an institution.......and its just gotten to me....

sooo many things...and one quick one of my other suggestions..

Got to bust equibase... Gotta do it. They are F'n Criminals like no others....

What that organization has done to this game is so bad.....you can't find words to describe it...

The number one reason is...again... To improve the game....

First all of....we should be charting electronically...and its Bullshit that we are not... But also...we need to let competition in to that part of the game...

Let me ask you a question? Can any reasonably intelligent person walk into a race track and buy a DRF and have any clue what it is? No.....Its a joke..

Again... THE HORSEMAN getting races written just for them.... No one has any idea what a racing condition means anymore... its a Joke....bordering on A CRIME what the horsemen have done to conditions....

Equibase....:faint: I mean....same old tired bullshit for years.... and a monopoly//// Look what those M'frs did to the NYRA WEB SITE!! Jesus that broke my heart.... but hey... the monopoly first... the game second.


Here's my point... If we let company's write PP's... anyone who wants...( COMPETITION) They will write them in such a way that Mary Slot player can understand.. Or Joe Poker player....or Sally Bingo player.... Write them in many different ways..

Like instead of AOC30000N2l-n (:lol: )

Its blue ( color would indicate class)

You see what I mean?


A blue race is an ok race.. a Purple race is a very high class race//


So my point again...and my 2nd suggestion ...of the ten I will offer on my way out....

is CUT THE SHIT ON THE DATA>... let companies play with it so there can be different levels of required knowledge and still have a fighting chance of THINKING YOURSELF INTO A WINNER...

Forget the specific example if you don't like it... Think OVERALL>>>\

Equibases monopoly has destroyed the game!!!

[rastajenk]

Yes, I was.

[PaceAdvantage]

Suff,

Equibase's monopoly? On what? The rather limited racing data game?

How many companies that you know of are eagerly banging down the door of the justice department, wanting in on this HUGE <sarcasm> market? I can't think of one....

When a person buys a Wall Street Journal for the first time, do they know what all the symbols and all the prices mean? Does the Wall Street Journal have a glossary or dictionary in every paper explaining every myriad financial term and calculation they may run across? No....

This is America. If some company really had a burning desire to get into the racing data game, they'd be here, doing it, today. If they were prevented from going to the tracks and charting their own data, they'd sue the Jockey Club and Equibase for access and they'd probably win. So why don't they?

That's the question you have to ask yourself. (Hint...small market)

PS. Suff, what did you do, get yourself a girlfriend? Whatcha mean you're giving up racing?

[Jeff P]

"Businesses that do not listen to their customers are doomed to extinction." -Robert99



Back in the day if you wanted a day at the races you went to the track. It was the only game in town and people turned out in droves. The world has changed a lot since then. Unfortunately the people in charge of racing continue to act as if things haven't changed at all. As a result our sport is made to suffer.

I believe some big changes are in order. My ideas are intended to bring racing out of the 19th century and into the 21st century:

Establish a single governing body that exists on a North American Continental Level. The purpose of this governing body is to bring our sport back into the limelight through marketing and establishment of uniform standards adopted by all North American Thoroughbred Race Tracks. Once all (or enough) tracks join, racing fans everywhere will know what to expect no matter what track they choose to attend - whether that attendance is done electronically or in person.

Here is a short list of uniform standards to be adopted by the governing body:

1. Uniform drug rules with severe penalties. Include a list of allowable drugs with amounts that can be administered along with a set of harsh penalties for trainers and owners (yes I said OWNERS), who violate these rules. The goal here is to have horses be given feed and water only... plus whatever drugs (bute, lasix, etc) are allowed by the rules. A violation means testing positive for ANY SUBSTANCE not defined within the set of rules. I'm talking about enforcement where a drug positive means there's a price to be paid. For example, a first time drug positive costs the owner $15k along with a suspension where no horse owned by the offending owner of record can run for 6 months (no matter who they are subsequently sold to) and no horse trained by the offending trainer of record can run for 6 months (no matter who takes over the barn.) A second time offense brings a 25k fine and a 1 year suspension. A third time offense brings a 100k fine and a lifetime ban. Show some balls and drug abuse by trainers will come to an abrupt end.

2. All wagers are fed into a tote system provided by/contracted out by the governing body. The tote system uses technology that allows for real time odds just like Nasdaq or the NYSE.

3. Uniform takeout and bet structure at all member tracks. Exacta/Quinella in every race. Rolling Double and Pick Three Everywhere. Tri and Super whenever field size is large enough. Pick four on the first four and last four races on every card. Pick 6 on the last six races of every card. Place Pick 8 on the last 8 races of every card. Uniform rules for multiple race consolation payoffs for scratches and races off the turf.

4. Account betting service (both Internet and telephone) administered by the governing body. Any racing fan over the age of 18 can get an account no matter which state they live in. Hate to say it but we've been silent and apathetic for too long. The entire purpose here is to create awareness (and clout) for our sport. State legislatures are there to do the will of the populace - not the other way around. States like NJ need to wake the F up and realize this. If enough of us get behind something like this - there are millions of potential racing fans everywhere - they will have no choice but to bow to what the voters want. All wagers are fed into the governing body's tote system. Uniform rules for cancellations when mistakes are made. Rebates (reduced takeout) become available to anyone who bets above a certain level. This is a volume discount... 1k per month 2%... 2k per month 4%... 10k per month 6%... 15k per month 7%... 20k per month 8%. 50k per month 10%. Wagers from companies such as YouBet, BrisBet, XpressBet, Premier Turf Club, TVG, WinTicket etc can be licensed to feed into the governing body's tote system.

5. Minor point but I'd like to see a control center where somebody with a brain decides when to load horses into the gate. The idea is to stagger the races and not have two races running at the same time. Nothing bothers me more than to be playing two tracks on a Tuesday afternoon where races at each track are 30 minutes apart and yet both tracks are running their races on top of each other. Also, people who play slots and cards (our competition) do so because they get constant action. They avoid racing because of the way track management continues to market the product. They prefer slots to racing because they think races are half an hour apart. I think a great way to market our sport might be a TV commercial showing somebody jumping up and down over hitting an exacta in NY and then having his girlfriend or buddy telling him to calm the F down and handicap the next race in CA because it goes off in three minutes.

6. Uniform set of rules for stewards. Right now a riding infraction at one track results in a DQ while the same infraction somewhere else results in a no call. Eliminate local stewards. Let the governing body's own stewards make the call. Hold the stewards accountable for their calls.

7. Track Video and Race Replays - The governing body's website will make track video for all member tracks available free of charge. No more exclusive deals. Track video (the product) is meant to be seen. The more widely available it becomes the more exposure the product gets. Good for the game.

8. Full Card Simulcasting - The FULL CARDS of all member tracks will be available for simulcasting every day at every member track. The entire purpose is to do everything possible to increase handle. Again, in states like CA it may take some time to get this done... but the idiots (I know... by calling them idiots I really am giving them the benefit of the doubt) in charge of racing here will eventually realize that increase in handle is a good thing.

9. National Marketing Campaign - I won't profess to know how specific ads will be received. But it seems to me that the governing body could use some small percentage of the takeout to pay for an ongoing national ad campaign designed to bring back public awareness of the sport and portray it in an upbeat cool way. This works for companies like Phillips Morris and Anheuser Busch. I would love to watch the Super Bowl one day and see a TV commercial that makes everyone in the room crack up.

10. Free Admission and Free Parking - Reasonable food and drink prices too.

These are just some of my ideas. Thoughts, comments, differing opinions welcome.


-jp

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[Jeff P]

One edit... my edit time ran out before I could finish my previous post.

Food & Drink Prices...
Market racing for what it is: gambling. Bring the sport into the limelight and do it right... believe me there will be so much new money available through increased handle that tracks won't ever have to rape their patrons again with outrageuos prices for poor quality food and drink like they do now.

-jp

.

[aaron]

Jeff P
Great list.The truest statement was "People in charge of racing continue to act as if things haven't changed."Racing has changed a great deal in the last 35-40 years, but race track operations hasn't. It seems to still be run by a "good old boy" network.

[JimG]

Brief thoughts on improving racing:

1)Fewer tracks

2)More horses per race (ie fewer races)

3)Lower takeout

4)Provide Rebates

5)Staggered post times amongst active tracks

6)A governing body that gave a damn about the horseplayer.

7)Track management that gave a damn about the horseplayer.

8)A written publication that gave a damn about the horseplayer. I get tired of reading about Trainers. They aren't the stars..we are.

I can think of more but I did say I would be brief. ;)

Jim

[jma]

I love that list. The only problem I can see is that the tracks and/or groups of tracks see themsles as competing with each other. And, well, they are---but we're asking them to make changes for the good of the whole INDUSTRY. That mindset will be hard to ever change, though of course your suggestions are on the money. How would you recommend we get from where we are to a place where what you said comes true? A lot to ask, but I'm curious if you have any ideas---I regard you as one of the sharpest guys here.

[Suff]

Suff,

[QUOTE]
Equibase's monopoly? On what? The rather limited racing data game?

How many companies that you know of are eagerly banging down the door of the justice department, wanting in on this HUGE <sarcasm> market? I can't think of one....

When a person buys a Wall Street Journal for the first time, do they know what all the symbols and all the prices mean? Does the Wall Street Journal have a glossary or dictionary in every paper explaining every myriad financial term and calculation they may run across? No....

This is America. If some company really had a burning desire to get into the racing data game, they'd be here, doing it, today. If they were prevented from going to the tracks and charting their own data, they'd sue the Jockey Club and Equibase for access and they'd probably win. So why don't they?


Unfortunately your answers are part and parcel of why I did not make a bet yesterday, nor today.

Comparing a game..or hobby, to the Stock market tables?

But rather than detail your response into the ground... I will just say...

While your saying that type of stuff... people are walking out in droves...and now I am one of them.

Seriously.... on the equibase thing....and on everything you typed. Its very disappointing. Extremely disappointing.

Anyone can get a team of Lawyers and sue The Jockey Club. That's old NY money....the richest people in the USA. :lol: Your solution....get a lawyer...

But please don't disect my idea's with platitudes....its very unattractive.

[JimG]

How would you recommend we get from where we are to a place where what you said comes true? A lot to ask, but I'm curious if you have any ideas

It will have to get a lot worse before track management changes. As long as they make profit, they think they are doing a good job. Silly guys. Money drives this sport, and we provide the money, yet are barely treated civil by track mangement and rarely acknowledged when reading anything about the game except the worn out sh-- that pertains to the glory days of Damon Runyon. It is 2007, not 1947, yet the tracks do not see the real problem.

If racetracks are brought to the knees by regular horseplayers moving onto other gambling activities where an edge could exist (poker, sports gambling, etc.) they may consider a real ruling authority...think commissioner...someone with real power, not a puppet of track mangement. If somebody objective and smart that has the interest of horse racing has authority, then some of the changes we are clamoring for could occur. Horse racing really needs to put the horseplayer first. The money will follow in a big way.

Unfortunately, as long as tracks can eek out a profit (slots will prolong the thought that they are doing a great job), they will continue to think of us as degenerate gamblers wearing ugly clothes and sleeping in beat up cars...despite the fact that many of us that are serious about this game and bet a lot of money are educated, articulate, and work very hard for an edge.

It is fun to dream about being treated with repect by management. I am still relatively young (mid-40's) and hope to one day see it as a reality.

[Suff]

I think people don't acknowledge or agree? or understand the depths to which this game is broken. Broken at its very core. Its unsustainable as a viable business operation.


While I agree with some of the things people have typed....its does not address the issue at the root.

Food & Drink Prices, Rebates, Access to video, Drug Rules, etc etc...

These are cosmetic, or designed to improve the current fans experience.


Eliminating tracks would be quite beneficial...but almost impossible to achieve.


The Sports needs FUNDEMENTAL CHANGES. Changes that rock its world, that make you triple takes, that have collateral damage....

Later tonight I will outline my suggestion for how to Change the way horses race, the type of viewer experience it should be, and the way these should draw fans....both as bettors and fans..... Merchandising is a huge profit center for all sports....from bowling to baseball....and horse racing needs that revenue to do a 10X

[Jeff P]

It's going to take some time. I think one way to start it is as a grass roots type of thing... maybe initially it's an organization committed to the idea of improving our sport that racing fans (players) can join until there's a large enough member base... once you have 20,000 members or so then I think it would be in track management's best interest to actually pay attention when you present ideas to them. If you are ignored at first don't give up. Keep growing.

Say you have 200,000 members nationwide and you want to get track management's attention about high concession prices. Do it right and get the info to the press... announce well ahead of time a day where you will do a complete boycott of one track... say a Saturday in June (not Belmont Day) at Belmont Park. If your members stick together then track management is going to discover that they only had $375.00 in handle that day with virtually no paid attendance. You have to show them that the bettors are what drives this game. If you pull it off the press is going to have a field day with it. Repeat on a different day at a different track. If you can do this then believe me word will spread.

Unfortunately, it's going to take something drastic like this to get their attention. It's obvious they're not listening now. Once you actually get track management's attention they WILL listen. Then get two or three tracks committed to the goals of improving the sport and go from there.



-jp

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[Tom]

How to improce racing:

1. Offer packages of PP data for every track,every day, at affordable prices, so that whn we don't like on track, we can play any other running.

2. Offer internet wagering so we can but multiple tracks

3. Offer not one, but two horse racing TV channels.

4. Set up a horse racing forum where players can come together and talk about horses.

Oh, wait a minute....we already have all that.

I guess the game is OK after all. :jump::jump::jump:

[jma]

I hear ya---I hope it happens Jeff.

[Suff]

Are there people going to Foxwoods every night to play poker who will walk in the race book for any of the reasons I'm reading?

Will a guy betting three college football games on a Saturday suddenly bet a horse because takeout went from 25% to 22%?

Is there a Fantasy Football league that will suddenly begin a fantasy Thoroughbred league because of uniform medication procedures?



Where are the new people... huh? Does any one have a suggestion about how to get new fans? Forgive me. I LOVE THE Idea's... But that's not the problem.

Will Staggered post times and full simulcast bring in new money?

It is my humble opinion that people don't get it. The want to improve their horse racing experience.... and that is not going to happen. sorry.

They will put slots in at NY.... They will subsidize horse racing from slot take ....and it will be just like Gulf Stream. An afterthought... Suff don't do after thought.

Good Luck Fellas.

[Rook]

If the people who ran horse racing had any brains they would develop a product that would have huge appeal to a global TV audience. How could they do that? Simple: by playing on people’s sense of patriotism. The very top level of horse racing should be reserved for international competition. Being a Canadian, I know first hand how hard I and the rest of the Woodbine crowd cheers on a Canadian horse that goes up against the Americans. If there is no Canuck in the race, I look up their pedigrees so that I can root for the one with the most Northern Dancer blood.



The general public shouldn’t have to go to such trouble. When they tune into a horse race on TV, they should see nations’ flags on the jockeys’ silks to know right away which horse represents them. As it stands right now, they generally only care if they have money on the race or a horse has a chance at a Triple Crown.



The Horse Racing League (HRL) would consist of 14 teams: 10 international and 4 from the USA. America needs to be split into 4 groups in order to give smaller countries a decent chance and encourage regional rivalries.



The HRL would help organize and award points in each country’s most prestigious races and at the end of the year (the Breeder’s Cup), a gold, silver and bronze medal would be presented to the leading jockey, trainer and owner from the respective teams.



An example of how it would work is this: In April, the 3 year old division would have their regional races to decide who would go to the Kentucky Derby. The winner and place horse in the Wood Memorial would represent the USA (North), the Blue Grass would decide Kentucky’s horses, the California reps would come from the Santa Anita Derby and the Florida Derby would decide which horses would wear the Stars and Bars of the Confederate States of America. Is this politically correct? Certainly not. Would it stir up interest in the league? You better believe it.



The other 10 horses could come from countries like:



Canada

England

Ireland

France

Japan

China

Brazil

Argentina

Arabia

Australia



Each team would have one weekend a year where they would host the HRL races. The home country would get an additional 4 horses in their races, while each American team would get an extra horse during the 4 USA based weekends.



By holding on to the status quo, thoroughbred racing becomes more marginalized with each passing year. Starting a league like this offers horse racing the best chance to capture the attention of the sports world.

[Jeff P]

The game didn't stop attracting new fans overnight. Getting it back to where it naturally does again isn't going to happen overnight either.

I remember how I became attracted to the game myself. One October afternoon soon after I graduated high school a bunch of us went to Turf Paradise. I wasn't even thinking about the betting part back then. I didn't know what to expect that day. I was just going to the track to party with my buddies. To my amazement there was cheap beer... girls everywhere... a party atmosphere... fun in a beautiful setting. I came away KNOWING I'd had a great time and that I'd be back again.

Somehow I made an internal connection associating the idea of spending a day at the track as a cool fun thing to do.

IMHO, that's what's missing these days. Somewhere in the last three decades things have changed. A day at the races isn't what it was when I first got into it. Young people show up once and don't see crowds of other young people. Instead they see the same old degenerate gamblers every time they go. So they don't make the same internal connection with the game that I did.

It's not that the game itself can't attract young fans again. It can. But not the way the game's been (mis)managed for the past 50+ years. It's going to take a concerted effort on a national level to change the game's image. If racing will do that (along with the other things I've so selfishly pointed out that would enhance my own racing experience) then young people will flock to this game again.

It's still a great game. Isn't it? Saddest thing in the world is that nobody knows it but us.


-jp


.

[Indulto]

… Establish a single governing body that exists on a North American Continental Level. The purpose of this governing body is to bring our sport back into the limelight through marketing and establishment of uniform standards adopted by all North American Thoroughbred Race Tracks. Once all (or enough) tracks join, racing fans everywhere will know what to expect no matter what track they choose to attend - whether that attendance is done electronically or in person.JP,
I agree with all your points, especially that a single governing body is essential to achieve all the other important changes, but don’t expect tracks that would not likely survive the competition for the on-line wagered dollar in such a horseplayer-optimized environment to willingly support that body’s creation.I think it has to start as a grass roots type of thing... maybe initially it's an organization committed to the idea of improving our sport that racing fans (players) can join until there's a large enough member base...Unlike an employees’ union whose mission is primarily defensive and which benefits its membership equally, a horseplayers advocacy group requires offensive strategies and cannot serve the interests of component groups in direct competition with each other.

Professional/high volume horseplayers feed off the casual/small volume players. The former’s primary concerns are getting rebates and eliminating IRS signers. The latter are concerned with actually hitting a signer and not being further raped by rebate. The latter also want lower wager minimums; the former oppose them.

I sure hope Suff doesn’t give up on the game because he is just as entertaining in the racing forums as he is in off-topic. But his reaction is the correct one until enough like-minded, dissatisfied players come to the same conclusion -- that the game as structured and operated is not worth playing. If the guys that already know how to fish don’t make it comfortable for the fish to keep swimming in their pools, they’ll have to find a new game to exploit before too long.

If a bettor can’t stop betting long enough to obtain better treatment and greater satisfaction from the game, then the label, “degenerate,” may indeed apply. We need to become “regenerates!”

[Robert Fischer]

The industry needs to get on television.

[PaceAdvantage]

Unfortunately your answers are part and parcel of why I did not make a bet yesterday, nor today.

Comparing a game..or hobby, to the Stock market tables?

But rather than detail your response into the ground... I will just say...

While your saying that type of stuff... people are walking out in droves...and now I am one of them.

Seriously.... on the equibase thing....and on everything you typed. Its very disappointing. Extremely disappointing.

Anyone can get a team of Lawyers and sue The Jockey Club. That's old NY money....the richest people in the USA. :lol: Your solution....get a lawyer...

But please don't disect my idea's with platitudes....its very unattractive.

I offered a serious response to your Equibase moan, and this is what I get? All of a sudden, my answers are no good to you?

Your post is saying that the reason we don't have alternatives to Equibase is because they have a monopoly, and this is one of the reasons this game is broken, and one of the reasons you're leaving the game.

The last semi-serious competition to DRF/Equibase came in the form of Jack Cohen's Sports Eye company, and all he was looking for in the end was a settlement payoff, which he got.

It's my contention that the reason Equibase has a monopoly on the data business is because nobody else really wants to challenge them....it has to be WORTH the effort to start the huge endeavor of chart calling, database creation, data storage, etc. etc. Everything Equibase now does rather well.

What YOU are proposing (easier to understand/read PPs, etc.) can be done TODAY with EQUIBASE. You don't even need to compete with Equibase directly. All you need to do is license their data, and create your own new beginner's product.

Perhaps I'm way off the mark, and that might be because you didn't go into much detail with your Equibase comments. You just stated they have a monopoly and that's part of the reason this sport is broken.

I fail to see how Equibase is a major reason why the sport is broken, if in fact it is in dire shape. In fact, your view of the state of the game would be better supported by seriously declining handle figures, but reality doesn't seem to back your view. I lack 2006 stats.....but....

Total pari-mutuel handle on Thoroughbred racing in the United States during 2005 declined 3.6%, marking the second consecutive year of decline after seven years of moderate growth. Contributing to the decline in 2005 was the loss of 147 racing days, a number of which occurred at racetracks located in or near communities befallen by natural disasters.

2004 was down a smidge .5% from 2003, and 2005 is being blamed on a loss of 147 racing days. Shouldn't handle be declining at a much faster pace over the last 10 years if what you say is true? If racing is absolutely broken and hardly any new fans are being brought to the game, shouldn't there be a noticeable drop off in handle over the last decade?

You're not going to bring many new fans to this game with free data or a challenger to Equibase. You're going to bring new fans to the game by getting them out to the track or getting them online and winning some races. That's the hook. You can go about this any number of ways...a challenger to Equibase doesn't seem like one of them....but I'd like to hear why you think this is a major part of the "decline."

[Kelso]

It's still a great game. Isn't it? Saddest thing in the world is that nobody knows it but us.




Jeff,
Great series of posts: recommendations (from fundamental to esthetic), reasoning, objectives, projections, tactics. I agree that a large organization of horse players is the best way to effect any/all of the improvements you suggest; also surprised that such hasn't yet arose.

How do you think the whales, in general, would respond to an organization with such goals and methods as you profer? In particular, do you think many would find it to their advantage to participate?

[Tote Master]

I come across a thread like this and I just scratch my head. I know "Misery loves company", but I just wanted to pass along some of my own thoughts which are basically contrary to much of what’s been promoted here. Take it for whatever its worth.

As many have also witnessed, I’ve seen both good and bad changes (over the last 36 years) to a GAME I thoroughly enjoy. Yes folks it’s only a GAME in which the connections and the facilities let you participate, by simply betting on your preferred selections. Once you thoroughly understand what the GAME is all about, then and only then will you begin worry about just your own participation and how you as an outsider fits into this great GAME. No one is forcing anyone to play this GAME. And I say, if you don’t like it, go roll the dice somewhere else.

Those of you who chronically complain about all this trivial nonsense on forums like this only show others your true colors. And there you go again! Looking to the government for more controls and regulations? Sounds like a Liberal who will try to convince the bettors that with their game plan everyone will become a Winner! Sound familiar? Something like a government controlled health care system perhaps! But it’s highly unlikely with a Pari-mutual GAME. Or maybe that should be changed too?! Yes? But somebody will have to come along with the money to pay all those Winners.

Why are so many worried about losing players to other gambling venues. The reason that they’re leaving is because they ARE Losing Players! Do you think for a moment that they’ll do better at something else? “Winners never Quit, and Quitters never Win”.

So stop the Whining and try Winning for a Change. That change alone to YOUR GAME will work wonders and it certainly makes it lot more fun! And hopefully more tolerable.

[Jeff P]

How do you think the whales, in general, would respond to an organization with such goals and methods as you profer? In particular, do you think many would find it to their advantage to participate? -Kelso


On the whole I don't think a true whale will to bother to get involved or do anything at all to participate in a grass roots movement. But I honestly believe a true whale would benefit greatly from the type of changes I am suggesting. If I'm right, the game gets the right kind of exposure and eventually becomes mainstream popular. Kind of like Nascar. This translates to explosive growth in terms of new fans and eventually handle. Show me any whale (or serious player) who wouldn't welcome that.

One of the more frustrating things I run into as a serious player (I'm not a whale) is a race or series of races where I have a strong opinion and there's no double or pick three available. I'm also suggesting more wagering opportunities (rolling doubles and pick threes, etc.) I have to think true whales would welcome that as well.


-jp

.

[alysheba88]

The one obstacle that is just so hard to overcome is todays instant gratification mentality. Which is why the slots and lottery are so popular. There are people, many who play the horses regularly who actually complain about 20 minutes between races. You can feel their shakes from the keyboard. Also, there is a strong anti-intellectualism movement as well. Saying you are attracted to an intellectual challenge nowadays is looked at with suspicion- like you said you were attracted to young children. Quick fix mentality for everything. Eat too much, there is a quick fix staple your stomache. While most of us can never understand the slot players mentality it basically comes down to thinking. They do not want to think. They want to escape.

[rastajenk]

I think more doubles and pick 3's, etc, is a tiny, insignificant suggestion. One, it's counterintuitive to the above suggestion that people want immediate gratification, which I believe is close to the mark. And two, there already exists a large assortment of multiple race wagers and most people completely ignore them. I'm a mutuel clerk, and if I punch 1000 tickets in a shift, ten or less are pick 3's and pick 4's. A couple dozen might be doubles. Exactas, tris and supers are where the action is, regardless of what the other options may be on any given race.

[K9Pup]

So stop the Whining and try Winning for a Change. That change alone to YOUR GAME will work wonders and it certainly makes it lot more fun! And hopefully more tolerable.

The problem is when the only players left are "winners" it will get tougher and tougher to win. Check out some of the greyhound track pools. You can be a "great" handicapper but when the win pools are $500 total it is hard to make much money. We NEED losers to keep the game going.

[Show Me the Wire]

liberal and uniform drug rules.

[Show Me the Wire]

Every time a horse engages in tail popping like Balance, this Sunday, the stewards should search the jockey and the outrider, if there is contact with one after the finish, prior to the unsaddling of the horse and the outrider leaving the track.

[Niko]

Some great ideas by folks here!

I agree with Pace and would put Equibase at the very bottom for the reasons he stated. But nothing will change in horseracing unless the handle and profits go down, otherwise we're just a minority opinion that's not impacting the game.

Horseracing should look at Nascar and other succesful sports for a business model. I don't watch Nascar but have friends that watch it that never did before. So what little I know about it.

1) Uniform rules. Nascar has it for engines-baseball now has an approved medication list and 3 strike rule (aka; uniform drug rules for everyone)
2) Single governing body over looking the best interests of the game.
3) Point totals. You could do this for stakes races possibly or types of races run. This seems like a big deal for Nascar fans as they follow their favorite drivers. I'm have no idea and I'm not taking the time to figure out if it could be applied to horseracing.
4) Severe fines or consequences for not "playing" by the rules. Not something to appease the fans by stating there's a suspension and the stable continues to rake in money and win at high percentage. Like someone said, if a trainer blames it on the feed, their should be other stables testing positive.

And from SEC, sports betting etc...

1) NO INSIDE BETTING!!!!!!!!!!! IT RUINS THE INTEGRITY OF THE GAME. Can you imagine if athletes or their immediate family could legally bet on their own games, if insiders could manipulate their stock WITHOUT serious consequences etc....If casinos put in rigged dealers. None of these games would survive but yet horseracing does. It won't change because the trainers run the show.

It's funny because I'm in the same boat as Suff. Betting about 20% of what I did last year, I was fed up but Pinnacle was the last straw for me. And there's only one way to vote...stop betting!! Otherwise it won't matter.

Now if I was winning at the same rate as a couple years ago and didn't have such strong job and family commitments it may might be another story. I was the last hold-out among my friends and now it's the stock market and an occasional dip into the game for the big races.

[Show Me the Wire]

" No inside betting" :bang: That is the foundation of the game. Owners own horses to bet on them.

[ELA]

Great thread. So, where do we start? See, that's an interesting question -- where to start -- because it presents some of the first layer of problems that exist for our SPORT and our BUSINESS! It's kind of like the onion -- layer after layer after layer. Anyway, the problem is multi-dimensional and multi-faceted -- perhaps no beginning and no end. Sure, it's circular -- from the "product" per se, to the horse and the breeding industry, to drugs and a lack of uniform medication rules, to TV and simulcasting, of course VLT's, to concession stand prices and quality, and the overall facility aspect, to the entertainment and so on.

Ladies and gentlemen -- the fish stinks from the head down. There is no national governing and regulatory body that can lead this industry and sport. Should The Jockey Club play that role? I don't know, perhaps. Do we need a racing czar as some have said? Maybe.

There needs to be a paradigm shift in how this entire industry operates. Perhaps that's why I've often heard that the people running racetracks do not understand the racing business.

Many of the things that are being condemed and critisized are actually part of the solutions. Lead, follow or get out of the way.

Eric

[Niko]

No inside betting" That is the foundation of the game. Owners own horses to bet on them.

Should have clarified better because you're absolutely right! Owners and fans (not trainers-although needed) are the lifeblood of the game and of course should be allowed to bet.

But trainers, vets, jockeys ? Why should they be allowed to bet on the outcome of a race they can directly influence???

[Indulto]

" No inside betting" :bang: That is the foundation of the game. Owners own horses to bet on them.I agree. The reality is that the game depends upon the seldom-for-profit model of horse-ownership. Without the continued willingness of owners to participate at a loss for whatever reasons, there can be no racing.

Penalizing owners for drug infractions in ways other than recovering purse money or -- when applicable, prosecution for criminal conspiracy, etc. -- is simply not realistic.

Horseplayers cannot change any aspect of racing unless they change themselves and demonstrate their unwillingness to participate under unacceptable conditions just as the owners and jockeys sometimes do. At some point the "Network" mindset has to prevail -- "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it ..." ;)

[Indulto]

No inside betting" That is the foundation of the game. Owners own horses to bet on them.

Should have clarified better because you're absolutely right! Owners and fans (not trainers-although needed) are the lifeblood of the game and of course should be allowed to bet.

But trainers, vets, jockeys ? Why should they be allowed to bet on the outcome of a race they can directly influence???I disagree. Jockeys are already betting their lives on the event, why can't they bet on their own mount? There's nothing nefarious about an owner providing added incentive by purchasing a ticket for the jockey.

What do you propose to do about owners who are trainers?

[Cangamble]

I'm trying to figure out how there would be more money to distribute if trainers worked for the track. And I don't really see the problem with trainers working as individuals poses a problem.

Better trainers usually get more day pay, while worse trainers come cheaper.
If you don't pay 10% of the purses to the trainers in your example, the trainers would have to get more day pay to compensate. Trainers at smaller tracks barely get by as is and their 10% represents their take home pay.

As far as vets are concerned, I also don't see the rates going down either. You are essentially asking for trainers and vets to take forced pay cuts.

Your solution doesn't really solve anything in my view.

[Cangamble]

Why are so many worried about losing players to other gambling venues. The reason that they’re leaving is because they ARE Losing Players! Do you think for a moment that they’ll do better at something else? “Winners never Quit, and Quitters never Win”.
***********************************
The problem is that the take out is too high for anyone to win anymore. Outside of setting up with a rebate shop. Slots have taken the stupid money out of the game, and now you have sharks against sharks and ridiculously high take outs.

Again, because we can bet on 50 races a day, and many do, horse race gambling is a sure loss situation in the long run. It wasn't like that in the past, you could only bet 8 or 9 races a day, there was little competition, so you were betting against a lot of dummy bettors.

Like I said before, I think a lot of players are on the sidelines because they figured this out and/or they get tapped out way too early in the day and get totally disillusioned.

The only chance for anyone to win in the long run today is rebate shops. I hate saying it, but it is the truth.

To the person who stated they bet 1-200 a race and is up a couple of hundred bucks in February...you are doing awesome, and you really should set up with a rebate shop....you'd be up thousands instead.

By the way, I'm on the sideline right now. I realize how futile horse race gambling is now, and only do it when I have mad money. At my peak I bet $400,000 a year. I usually throw out the chalk, and my biggest hit was a pool shot win four that paid over $27k Canadian on a $48 bet.

[Cangamble]

I'll give another example. Slots average takeout is around 7-9% I believe.
They can also rig the machines to give more back during weekends and less during week days for example.

If they were to double the house advantage to 18%, what would happen?

In the short run, the house may make more to begin with because the likelihood that anyone comes out of the slots with any money whatsoever greatly increases.

However, because of this, they will lose big time in the long run. If a slot player finds out they have a next to nothing chance of walking out of the casino with money, and oh yeah, forget about winning, they will stop going altogether in a hurry.

The reality in horse racing is that if you bet over the course of a few month, $100,000, the track is only returning $80,000 of it. If you are lucky enough to beat the public, and return $95,000, you still lose 5k. If the take was halved, you would win 5k, and probably bet a lot more, more than likely double or triple the 100k. If friends see you winning, they might start playing too.

Those who bring $200 to the track will collectively last to churn more in the windows and possibly last an entire day as opposed to half a day. The track will get the same from the not so great bettors in the end.

[Rook]

I have to agree with Suff that Equibase is a company that does far more harm than good for the sport. Their directive should be to promote the sport of racing but instead they put up a firewall preventing new players from entering the game and discouraging existing players to continue to play it.

Due to them, data providers are prevented from selling old past performances. So, when a handicapper enters or re-enters this sport, he essentially has two choices: start betting right away and lose money to the better informed or wait several months until he has a decent enough sized information bank to compete.

When I came back to this sport, I researched every day for 5 months before betting a single penny. I had the patience due to some success in the past, but is a typical newcomer going to put up with this?

A person that wanted betting action right away would be better off taking up a sport like baseball. MLB knows that it is not good for their sport to view their data as top secret information, so they are happy to let dozens of sites give away stats for free. A lifetime database of every hitter and pitcher is freely available and anyone can go to ESPN or CBS and read a box score or recap from 5 years ago, but with Equibase, a single lifetime PP is $8.00 and you can’t even look up a chart that is older than a week for less than $1.50. Does anyone think that these are reasonable prices?


Some days I handicap several dozens of races on paper. Does Equibase make checking the daily charts a pleasant and painless experience? Hardly. Entering a security code once a day should more than enough protection, but Equibase feels it is perfectly reasonable to give a horseplayer an Error Exceeded Requests message a half dozen times and require a new security code each time to proceed.

Anybody who defends Equibase, should take a look at how Hong Kong racing operates:

http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/Results.asp (http://www.hkjc.com/english/racing/Results.asp) :On this site, for free, you can view all the races from the last two years on broadband and see high quality photos of the entire field at various splits.

http://www.horseracing.com.hk/data.htm (http://www.horseracing.com.hk/data.htm) :If you wanted a data subscription, you can get an annual one for $510 and if you wanted to do some comprehensive research, you can get up to 10 years of data for $50 a season.

It’s pretty clear that by comparison, Equibase is a curse on us North American horseplayers.

[SMOO]

I'll give another example. Slots average takeout is around 7-9% I believe.
They can also rig the machines to give more back during weekends and less during week days for example.

If they were to double the house advantage to 18%, what would happen?

In the short run, the house may make more to begin with because the likelihood that anyone comes out of the slots with any money whatsoever greatly increases.

However, because of this, they will lose big time in the long run. If a slot player finds out they have a next to nothing chance of walking out of the casino with money, and oh yeah, forget about winning, they will stop going altogether in a hurry.

The reality in horse racing is that if you bet over the course of a few month, $100,000, the track is only returning $80,000 of it. If you are lucky enough to beat the public, and return $95,000, you still lose 5k. If the take was halved, you would win 5k, and probably bet a lot more, more than likely double or triple the 100k. If friends see you winning, they might start playing too.

Those who bring $200 to the track will collectively last to churn more in the windows and possibly last an entire day as opposed to half a day. The track will get the same from the not so great bettors in the end.
Excellent post. :ThmbUp:

Most of the gamblers I know bet sports, where the take is around 5 to 10% and the info is free on the internet. They look at me like I'm crazy to even consider betting on "those crooked horses".

[John]

This is a fantastic link guys.Never has there been more people expressing
there emotions in an honest and sincere way.

Good job Suff, PA, Jeff P. and all the rest
:) :) :)

[PaceAdvantage]

Their [Equibase] directive should be to promote the sport of racing but instead they put up a firewall preventing new players from entering the game and discouraging existing players to continue to play it.Really? I thought it was the NTRA's directive to promote the sport of racing. Remember them?


Anybody who defends Equibase, should take a look at how Hong Kong racing operates:I hope you don't think my post was a defense of Equibase. I'm not defending them, just explaining reality.

I welcome competition. Unfortunately, in the case of Equibase, it seems that nobody is interested all that much.

[Rook]

Really? I thought it was the NTRA's directive to promote the sport of racing. Remember them?


I barely remembered them. In fact I went to their website for the first time in my life right now. You are right in bringing them up. They are another useless organization that deserves to be ripped. But just because Equibase is ‘only’ a data provider doesn’t let them off the hook. They are the face of racing to so many of us and they look like Rosie:( while baseball fans get a Natalie Portman and Hong Kong race fans get a Penelope Cruz.:kiss:

[Kelso]

[QUOTE=Tote Master]
Yes folks it’s only a GAME in which the connections and the facilities let you participate, by simply betting on your preferred selections.
QUOTE]

Racing began as a game may hundreds of years ago. Today it is a game to only some (but not all) owners, and to (probably) the majority of bettors. To the tracks, trainers and many bettors ... it is a BUSINESS. And it is a BUSINESS in which the preponderance of REVENUE comes from bettors. Take them out of the picture and your game returns to the lower 40 ... without the international infrastructure that provides access to whatever pleasure (and/or profit) you derive from it.

The point to so many comments in this thread has been that, as a BUSINESS, the tracks (excessive takeout, poor facilities, exhorbitant prices, ineffective promotion) and the trainers (drugs) are engaging in exceedingly poor BUSINESS practices. They will learn that the hard way, eventually, when their primary source of REVENUE finally goes elsewhere en masse .... as we have read, more than once within this thread, that some of it already has.



[QUOTE=Tote Master]
And there you go again! Looking to the government for more controls and regulations?
QUOTE]

I don't recall reading, within this thread, any suggestions for a heavier government presence in horse racing. I have, rather, read several penetrating calls for more sensible SELF GOVERNANCE within the industry.

[Indulto]

Racing began as a game may hundreds of years ago. Today it is a game to only some (but not all) owners, and to (probably) the majority of bettors. To the tracks, trainers and many bettors ... it is a BUSINESS. And it is a BUSINESS in which the preponderance of REVENUE comes from bettors. Take them out of the picture and your game returns to the lower 40 ... without the international infrastructure that provides access to whatever pleasure (and/or profit) you derive from it.

The point to so many comments in this thread has been that, as a BUSINESS, the tracks (excessive takeout, poor facilities, exhorbitant prices, ineffective promotion) and the trainers (drugs) are engaging in exceedingly poor BUSINESS practices. They will learn that the hard way, eventually, when their primary source of REVENUE finally goes elsewhere en masse .... as we have read, more than once within this thread, that some of it already has.5X,
I think you're saying that racing is a game to only a minority of owners and of bettors and, therefore, an unprofitable business venture for a majority of each. While I have no doubt that all groups of human racing participants are overwhelmingly entrepreneurial and self-directed, I wonder what percentage of bettors file returns reflecting income from wagering.I don't recall reading, within this thread, any suggestions for a heavier government presence in horse racing. I have, rather, read several penetrating calls for more sensible SELF GOVERNANCE within the industry.Herding these cool cats is something ONLY the government could possibly accomplish. ;)

[Kelso]

I think you're saying that racing is a game to only a minority of owners and of bettors and, therefore

Actually, I meant just the opposite. Apologies for not being more clear. I believe the assertions I've often read that ownership is a losing proposition ... and therefor mainly an expensive hobby ... for most owners.

As to bettors, I also accept the estimates that 95% (and up) are money-losers ... and therefor mainly recreational bettors ... on an extended basis.

I think it is the tracks and the trainers who, generally, are in racing for the express purpose of conducting a profitable business.


Herding these cool cats is something ONLY the government could possibly accomplish. ;)

Well, I agree that it is a formidable task. But I have to wonder if the MLB, NFL, PGA, NBA, etc. folks are all that much smarter than the professional racing types. I don't believe they are, yet they've all managed to self-regulate to increasing degrees of effectiveness ... and profitability ... for many years now.

I think the key here is educating all elements of the industry (including bettors) that clear, common and effective rules and practices are in everyone's over-all best interests.

[thaskalos]

I was standing in line to cash a winning ticket in a Las Vegas sportsbook a few years ago, when I noticed the guy in front of me cashing a winning football bet. The guy collected over $40,000, took half in cash, half in casino chips, and left without suffering the indignity of filling out a tax form. Compare that to us poor horseplayers who catch the occasional superfecta for $602 ( which probably cost us a $48-$81 ticket ) and are forced to fill out tax forms because we received a 300-1(?) payoff. And if we are fortunate enough to collect more than $5000, 30% is immediately taken away from us before we even see it. Of course, if we are willing to keep detailed records of every single bet we make ( and have a saint for a spouse ) we may be able to prove that we lost it all back and get our refund ( along with our divorce papers.)
How can this game be taken seriously as a gambling game?

[BillW]

The guy collected over $40,000, took half in cash, half in casino chips, and left without suffering the indignity of filling out a tax form.

What kind of bet in football can you get 300-1?

[Tote Master]

CanGamble
Short term, more transparency when it comes to medications. I also think medication rules should be the same everywhere in North America. I think Bute should be allowed...wherever Bute isn't used, I think it leads to assortments of drugs being used and more games are being played.
JimG
6)A governing body that gave a damn about the horseplayer.
Jeff P
Establish a single governing body that exists on a North American Continental Level. The purpose of this governing body is to bring our sport back into the limelight through marketing and establishment of uniform standards adopted by all North American Thoroughbred Race Tracks.
Here is a short list of uniform standards to be adopted by the governing body:
1. Uniform drug rules with severe penalties…..
2. All wagers are fed into a tote system provided by/contracted out by the governing body….
3. Uniform takeout and bet structure at all member tracks…..
4. Account betting service (both Internet and telephone) administered by the governing body….
5. 5. Minor point but I'd like to see a control center……
6. Uniform set of rules for stewards……. Eliminate local stewards. Let the governing body's own stewards make the call…..
7. Track Video and Race Replays - The governing body's website will make track video for all member tracks available free of charge.
8. Full Card Simulcasting - The FULL CARDS of all member tracks……
9. National Marketing Campaign - ……. But it seems to me that the governing body could use some small percentage of the takeout to pay for an ongoing national ad campaign designed to bring back public awareness
10. Free Admission and Free Parking - Reasonable food and drink prices too…….
JimG
If racetracks are brought to the knees by regular horseplayers moving onto other gambling activities where an edge could exist (poker, sports gambling, etc.) they may consider a real ruling authority...think commissioner...someone with real power,
Suff
Later tonight I will outline my suggestion for how to Change the way horses race, the type of viewer experience it should be,…..
Niko
2) Single governing body over looking the best interests of the game.
4) Severe fines or consequences for not "playing" by the rules.
ELA
Ladies and gentlemen -- the fish stinks from the head down. There is no national governing and regulatory body that can lead this industry and sport.
-----------------------------------------------------------
Kelso
I don't recall reading, within this thread, any suggestions for a heavier government presence in horse racing. I have, rather, read several penetrating calls for more sensible SELF GOVERNANCE within the industry.Maybe I’m interpreting all this control nonsense incorrectly, but it sure sounds like “Big Brother” to me!

Suff
Comparing a game. or a hobby, to the Stock market tables?
I think people don't acknowledge or agree? or understand the depths to which this game is broken. Broken at its very core. Its unsustainable as a viable business operation. Is it a GAME or a Business?
It might depend on who you’re talking to, and their involvement. Players that treat it as a Business are more often then not - more successful. The connections who treat it as a Game are more often then not - unsuccessful.

JeffP
Where are the new people... huh? Does any one have a suggestion about how to get new fans? Forgive me. I LOVE THE Idea's... But that's not the problem. I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but there are more people betting on horseracing today then ever before. Why? Very simple. The world’s population has increased dramatically over the last 50 years. Horseracing will ALWAYS get its fair share of gambling revenue.
K9Pup
The problem is when the only players left are "winners" it will get tougher and tougher to win. Check out some of the greyhound track pools. You can be a "great" handicapper but when the win pools are $500 total it is hard to make much money. We NEED losers to keep the game going. Please don’t kid yourself! Even the most successful players don’t win everyday. The idea is to be profitable after a period of time or series of bets. Anyone who believes that a winning player hits all the time is not in touch with the realities of this game.

Someone mentioned “instant gratification”. Well that’s pretty much what it is to some in a nutshell. The amateur players think they’re going to win a bundle. Then reality sets in! As in most methods of making money (be it business or gaming) there’s a learning curve involved (which can be costly). Even the government doesn’t expect new enterprises to produce profits right away. So they give it 3 to 5 years before they expect a company to produce taxable profits. The point is, no matter what you’re goals might be, you’re going to have pay the dues initially. There are very few get rich quick schemes that actually produce.

At some point you’ll have to ask yourself why you’re playing to begin with. Is it for entertainment or for long-term profit? If you’re worried about rebates and free parking, or how you’re being treated by track management then perhaps you’ve set your goals a bit too high and your expectations will never be realized. However, if you gain a solid foundation and understanding of how the game works, how to play it properly and effectively, how to discipline yourself, and most importantly how to manage your money, it can not only be profitable, but lots of fun as well.

So I say, if anything “Change your Game” if you're serious about it, and don't look to change “The Game” just because you can't get a handle on it. Lets agree that no matter how it changes, on any given day, at any given track there will be winners and losers. Your attitude toward handling each side of that scenario will determine your success or failure, if you're resolute about staying ahead. I think many players blame the Game for their own mistakes!

[K9Pup]

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but there are more people betting on horseracing today then ever before. Why? Very simple. The world’s population has increased dramatically over the last 50 years. Horseracing will ALWAYS get its fair share of gambling revenue.

So why are pools DECREASING instead of increasing?


Please don’t kid yourself! Even the most successful players don’t win everyday. The idea is to be profitable after a period of time or series of bets. Anyone who believes that a winning player hits all the time is not in touch with the realities of this game.



Of course nobody wins everyday. But if the only players left are the "successful" ones then the ability of ALL of them to make decent money will be impacted.


Someone mentioned “instant gratification”. Well that’s pretty much what it is to some in a nutshell. The amateur players think they’re going to win a bundle. Then reality sets in! As in most methods of making money (be it business or gaming) there’s a learning curve involved (which can be costly). Even the government doesn’t expect new enterprises to produce profits right away. So they give it 3 to 5 years before they expect a company to produce taxable profits. The point is, no matter what you’re goals might be, you’re going to have pay the dues initially. There are very few get rich quick schemes that actually produce.

And the fact that you have to "pay the dues" is exactly why the industry ISN'T attracting new players. The instant gratification of slots and lotto is drawing the young gamblers. You obivously don't agree, but the horse and dog tracks MUST attract new customers to keep this business going.



At some point you’ll have to ask yourself why you’re playing to begin with. Is it for entertainment or for long-term profit? If you’re worried about rebates and free parking, or how you’re being treated by track management then perhaps you’ve set your goals a bit too high and your expectations will never be realized. However, if you gain a solid foundation and understanding of how the game works, how to play it properly and effectively, how to discipline yourself, and most importantly how to manage your money, it can not only be profitable, but lots of fun as well.

Is there anything wrong with being in it for the entertainment? As such the other "perks" keep it interesting and affordable.


So I say, if anything “Change your Game” if you're serious about it, and don't look to change “The Game” just because you can't get a handle on it. Lets agree that no matter how it changes, on any given day, at any given track there will be winners and losers. Your attitude toward handling each side of that scenario will determine your success or failure, if you're resolute about staying ahead. I think many players blame the Game for their own mistakes!
Again I ask, does EVERYONE have to be "serious" about it?

[Cangamble]

Tote Master, as I've explained, the only real winners can be those playing at Betfair or those who take advantage of rebate shops.

The game has changed because of slots (taking away many casual bettors), home betting and more betting possibilities causing a quick kill for casual and even serious bettors. You seem to want to ignore the fact that it is sharks against sharks now, and you have failed to acknowledge almost all of my points.

There is no way to justify the 20% take outs anymore. People have woke up and alternatives have come along for those interested in gambling for entertainment that give a player's dollar a longer ride.

25 years ago, there were winners at the track, and not that many, but it was possible (only one track, and plenty of casual bettors). It isn't possible anymore in the long run. That is the way it is, and you can call this whining, but it is fact.

[Jeff P]

Tote Master, you wrote:
JeffP
Where are the new people... huh? Does any one have a suggestion about how to get new fans? Forgive me. I LOVE THE Idea's... But that's not the problem.Umm... I never posted that. Somebody else did. I merely responded to it.


You also wrote:
Maybe I’m interpreting all this control nonsense incorrectly, but it sure sounds like “Big Brother” to me!The single governing body idea I suggested isn't a big brother type of thing at all. If you want to find Big Brother in racing look no further than Equibase.

What I suggested in fact was a grass roots movement by horseplayers to band together in such a way as to bitch slap (get the attention of) the racing industry to wake them the F up that they are slowly killing our game.

I strongly believe that we as horseplayers do have the ability to effect change. But not overnight. If we band together and do it right we can start a chain reaction where the end result is a concerted effort on a national level that changes the game for the better.

Along the way the industry wakes up and forms a single governing body whose mission statement is to fix what's broken in the game and market the game in the right way. When that happens Thoroughbred Racing will find itself in the public limelight. If that happens the result will be mainstream media awareness, an explosion of new fans, and ultimately unheard of increases in handle growth.



-jp

.

[alysheba88]

Racing needs Judge Landis the way baseball needed him in 1920

[Greyfox]

I’m not sure where you’re getting your information, but there are more people betting on horseracing today then ever before. Why? Very simple. The world’s population has increased dramatically over the last 50 years. Horseracing will ALWAYS get its fair share of gambling revenue.


It seems to me that the thread started with a Canadian "blogger" giving his article on how to improve the game. He blamed simulcasts, take outs too high etc. Now Tote Master, you offer the wisdom "Change Your Game."
But if you're not attracting new fans to the game, how can they change what they haven't even started?
I think that I've got a pretty good game and won't be going anywhere.
But we still have to attract new handicappers to the sport.
I think a lot of the suggestions in this forum have been excellent, I might add.

You claim above that "more people betting on horseracing today then ever before." The population is increasing and you assume that horse racing will always get it's fair share of gambling revenue.
I don't see it that way, but if you have a source of statistics that supports your claim that more are betting, could you provide it to us?
In the meanwhile, there are a lot of major activities that are losing customers.
Even golf is reporting lower numbers. Skiing is "down hill." and so on.
Maybe part of the problem is right before your very eyes now. People are spending a lot of time on computers in forums. No?

At any rate please show us the source for claiming more people are betting on horse racing.

[Greyfox]

Several people in this and other threads have called for improvements in drug testing. In an article posted this morning on the ABC website, Willem Marx
is reporting the following statistics.
U.S.A. 1.5 deaths of horses for every 1,000 starts.
Hong Kong .58 deaths of horses for every 1,000 starts.
So why the difference in deaths ratio?
Marx is reporting: "The widespread use of medicinal drugs in American racing may be to blame, according to some experts."
Interesting 3 page read at:
http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/story?id=2857650&page=1&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[Tote Master]

K9Pup
So why are pools DECREASING instead of increasing? You must be joking! Right?! Here’s an example for one of the smaller tracks in the country in the dead of winter no less!
For obvious reasons, I’ve also provided a link (below) for my selections begining with Race #2 – for those who might be interested or in disbelief of my comments. (My Username is different but the Signature is identical)

Delta Downs Thurs 2/15/07 – Mutual Pools Only!
Race 1:::::::::Totals……….…37338…….12723……...7781
Race 2:::::::::Totals………….43118…….16493…..….7172
Race 3:::::::::Totals………...45107…….17108……...7876
Race 4:::::::::Totals………...44127…….17060……...6916
Race 5:::::::::Totals………...43114…….13736…….…7207
Race 6:::::::::Totals………...40682…….16934…….…7797
Race 7:::::::::Totals………….35092…….13612…….…7542
Race 8:::::::::Totals………...33268…….12318…….…5818
Race 9:::::::Totals………….…32982….…12127…….…7159
Race 10::::::Totals…………...31524…….10240……...5132
http://www.horseswild.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9216
K9PupOf course nobody wins everyday. But if the only players left are the "successful" ones then the ability of ALL of them to make decent money will be impacted. Don’t kid yourself! There might be only 5% of the players out there who are really successful.
K9Pup
And the fact that you have to "pay the dues" is exactly why the industry ISN'T attracting new players. The instant gratification of slots and lotto is drawing the young gamblers. You obivously don't agree, but the horse and dog tracks MUST attract new customers to keep this business going.I doubt it. Anyone that is involved in any form of playing games for profit (serious or otherwise) will pay their dues. The new players will always come into our Game, especially when there’s media hype about another potential Triple Crown winner.
K9Pup
Is there anything wrong with being in it for the entertainment? As such the other "perks" keep it interesting and affordable. Absolutely NOT! The problem is that many players don’t know how to realistically set goals. If all you want to get out of this Game is fun and some entertainment, its there for you. If you need perks to stay interested I feel sorry for you! What kind of perks do you get attending a baseball, football or NASCAR event? None! You’ll pay through the nose from everything to admission to a hot dog. And where’s the betting environment? Certainly not at the event!
K9Pup
Again I ask, does EVERYONE have to be "serious" about it?No, absolutely NOT! As long as you’re conscious of your limitations and limit your expectations, you can have a lot of fun with this Game. I take this Game a bit more seriously then the next guy, and as I mentioned I thoroughly enjoy it.
CanGambleTote Master, as I've explained, the only real winners can be those playing at Betfair or those who take advantage of rebate shops.Well your explanation might be adequate for some, but I say that any “serious” player that has to rely on rebates is only kidding themselves!
CanGamble
The game has changed because of slotsMaybe for you is has, but it hasn’t changed a bit for me. I’ll always be an exotics player, never looking for Winners per se, but rather always looking for Winning Plays. I could really care less about take-outs, rebates, or paying Uncle Sam. Its all part of the game.
CanGamble
25 years ago, there were winners at the track, and not that many, but it was possible (only one track, and plenty of casual bettors). It isn't possible anymore in the long run. That is the way it is, and you can call this whining, but it is fact.I beg to differ!
Greyfox
Now Tote Master, you offer the wisdom "Change Your Game."
But if you're not attracting new fans to the game, how can they change what they haven't even started? I think that I've got a pretty good game and won't be going anywhere.
But we still have to attract new handicappers to the sport.
I think a lot of the suggestions in this forum have been excellent, I might add. Maybe I’m a bit old school, but I’m perfectly happy with the way things are in this Game. I believe that the majority of players really don’t understand what the Game is really all about. Many like yourself apparently want to change the Game because of their own short comings. And believe it or not it’s not their own fault! So many have been brainwashed by the handicapping gurus into believing that looking into the Past will help them predict the Future that they feel frustrated with their own results and the Game as a whole.

My suggestion: Look at the Game from a different perspective.

Lots of luck!

[K9Pup]

You must be joking! Right?! Here’s an example for one of the smaller tracks in the country in the dead of winter no less!
For obvious reasons, I’ve also provided a link (below) for my selections begining with Race #2 – for those who might be interested or in disbelief of my comments. (My Username is different but the Signature is identical)

Delta Downs Thurs 2/15/07 – Mutual Pools Only!
Race 1:::::::::Totals……….…37338…….12723……...7781
Race 2:::::::::Totals………….43118…….16493…..….7172
Race 3:::::::::Totals………...45107…….17108……...7876
Race 4:::::::::Totals………...44127…….17060……...6916
Race 5:::::::::Totals………...43114…….13736…….…7207
Race 6:::::::::Totals………...40682…….16934…….…7797
Race 7:::::::::Totals………….35092…….13612…….…7542
Race 8:::::::::Totals………...33268…….12318…….…5818
Race 9:::::::Totals………….…32982….…12127…….…7159
Race 10::::::Totals…………...31524…….10240……...5132
http://www.horseswild.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9216


I see the numbers, but nothing that shows me these numbers are INCREASING instead of decreasing. I come from the greyhound world. And I can tell you that greyhounds wagering is probably the future of the horses. Consistently decreasing pools are the norm.


Don’t kid yourself! There might be only 5% of the players out there who are really successful.

I don't doubt the 5% at all. But unless new "losers" come in at the same rate as winners that percentage will increase over the years. And the AMOUNT each wins will decrease.


I doubt it. Anyone that is involved in any form of playing games for profit (serious or otherwise) will pay their dues. The new players will always come into our Game, especially when there’s media hype about another potential Triple Crown winner.

New young gamblers don't seem interested in "paying their dues". The see the quick money side of slots, cards, etc as their answer.


Maybe I’m a bit old school, but I’m perfectly happy with the way things are in this Game. I believe that the majority of players really don’t understand what the Game is really all about. Many like yourself apparently want to change the Game because of their own short comings. And believe it or not it’s not their own fault! So many have been brainwashed by the handicapping gurus into believing that looking into the Past will help them predict the Future that they feel frustrated with their own results and the Game as a whole.

Again I can talk about things from the greyhound perspective. But I see that just the for-shadowing of horses. Pools are so small that you can't wager $20 to win because you will greatly impact the odds. Horses may not be at that point yet, but it is headed that way. Both sports need to attract new players.


My suggestion: Look at the Game from a different perspective.



I am.

[Kelso]

My suggestion: Look at the Game from a different perspective.




I'm sufficiently new to betting on horses that I don't yet have an old perspective. What, specifically please, is the perspective you suggest?

Thank you.

[Greyfox]

own fault! So many have been brainwashed by the handicapping gurus into believing that looking into the Past will help them predict the Future that they feel frustrated with their own results and the Game as a whole.

My suggestion: Look at the Game from a different perspective.

Lots of luck!

Tote Master, I admit that I am "brainwashed" as you say to looking at the Past to Predict the future. For me, in a horse race, the dictum : "Past performance is the best predictor to future performance!" is a given.
There are of course other predictors that I take into account.

Are you saying throw away past performance lines, they're of no value? That means rolling the dice or watching car license plates or buying quick picks to me.
At any rate, I'm not frustrated with the game at all. I love it. But N.A. track handles are down. Horse racing interest is not growing in relation to population growth. I think that it needs a better selling job. I think the ideas that people are bring up here reflect interest in improving the sport, not frustration. Every industry has to keep reviewing it's product, it's target market and it's goals.
I have no problems with you holding your views. But there is an element of pedanticism in your comments that seems to reflect that you believe that you've found the Holy Grail and the rest of us are frustrated peons who need to keep looking.
Good luck with that belief. Some of us are doing quite okay at the track.
But the sport could be improved. No?

[thaskalos]

We are playing a game where 99% of the players are long term losers, the game's most successful trainers have been suspended for cheating ( which makes you wonder what the small guys trying to earn a modest living are doing )twelve jockeys have been suspended with no reason whatsoever given, and TOTE MASTER"S advice to us is to "stop whining and try winning for a change." Very profound. I suppose when you are into tote board watching none of this matters because all you have to do is follow the money. Any chance that he might reduce his asking price ( $25 a day per race card is a little steep for me) I think we all would like to find out if he is really on to something.

[Overlay]

I'm sufficiently new to betting on horses that I don't yet have an old perspective. What, specifically please, is the perspective you suggest?

Thank you.

I don't mean to speak for Tote Master. (He's posted his general handicapping philosophy on the board many times.) But, since you're unfamiliar with his approach, he believes that most stables depend for their financial success/liquidity not just on the purses their horses receive for their efforts, but also on the proceeds from bets that the horse's "connections" make based on their personal knowledge of their horses' condition (as well as, possibly, the condition of other horses against which their own horses are competing). Under those circumstances, it would be in the interest of the stable to both "darken" the form of its own horses (which is why Tote Master downplays the analysis of published form, since that reflects only what the stable wants you to believe about the horse's condition), and to conceal to the greatest extent possible the fact that it is betting on a particular horse, since it would drive the odds down to an unacceptably low level if the public knew that the stable was planning such a "betting coup". However, Tote Master would contend that it is possible to detect these "live" horses through such measures as the analysis of betting/odds patterns on the horses in a race in both the straight and exotic pools, and the relative amount of backing that horses or combinations are receiving in those pools.

[thaskalos]

Hi overlay:

The problem with Tote Master is not his methodology but his confrontational style. Take a look at some of his posts. Is it "brainwashing" to think that analyzing the past might help in predicting the future? Should we all abandon the racing form and concentrate on the tote board instead? And if so, will our success be assured? I didn't know that the tote watchers were making all the money!!

[Overlay]

Point taken (and agreed with from a personal handicapping perspective). I was just trying to maintain as objective a position as I could in summarizing Tote Master's main handicapping views (as I understand them, and regardless of whether or not I accept them) in response to Kelso's post, while also attempting to keep the handicapping aspect separate from issues of Tote Master's style or tone in conveying his message.

[Greyfox]

Enough for Tote Master. He can think that the rest of us don't watch for discrepancies in the pools if he wants. That's just another weapon, in addition to past performance lines.

At any rate, we're talking about how to improve the game. There is an interesting read on equidaily today talking about posting Stewards decisions and the reasoning behind them.
It can be read at : http://www.equidaily.com/bestbet/extras/topic/2007/70215.html

[Tape Reader]

Increase handle and all will benefit.

It is Eco 101. Let another bettor take the other side of the bet. It is called "short selling" in the stock market. I know all about the downside. Let's work on the positives.

Every horse player/track will benefit if the handle increases.

Example: Horse is even money and betting slows down because of odds being too low. Enter the short seller: I, the "short seller" believes that the even money favorite will not win and will take the other side of the bet (short selling). I, sell short (book the bet) on the favorite. The odds not only stop going lower on the favorite, they may even begin to go higher if there are enough short sellers "allowed" to bet.

The "argument" increaces handle, reducing take out, and we all benefit.

This is only the beginning. Race tracks do not need slot machines, they need inovatavie thinkers from the free market: Wall Street.

[Kelso]

Under those circumstances, it would be in the interest of the stable to both "darken" the form of its own horses (which is why Tote Master downplays the analysis of published form, since that reflects only what the stable wants you to believe about the horse's condition)




Thanks very much, Overlay. Very clear.

Am I correct to understand that "form" relates as much - or more - to workouts (easily concealed?) than it does to recent race performances? I've thought the term refers to only actual races.

Thank you, again.

[Buckeye]

Obviously, the mere fact that we are discussing the viability of horseracing supports Suff's position that there is something VERY wrong here, and I support his decision to quit betting on this "game" until further evidence is produced to the contrary.

It's not a question of when changes will happen, only if. To be more precise, if they won't change the rules to favor the player (REMEMBER US!), F them.

I'm already "out" so Suff you are right.

[Overlay]

Thanks very much, Overlay. Very clear.

Am I correct to understand that "form" relates as much - or more - to workouts (easily concealed?) than it does to recent race performances? I've thought the term refers to only actual races.

Thank you, again.

Kelso,

To keep the thread on topic, I sent you a PM. Check your PA mailbox.

[Greyfox]

Horseracing will ALWAYS get its fair share of gambling revenue.




We still haven't seen Tote Master's source that supports the above claim.
DRF is reporting Golden Gate's handle is down.

http://www.drf.com/news/article/82634.html

I hope some of the good ideas in this thread are being passed along to various track managers.

[Tote Master]

Greyfox
Enough for Tote Master. He can think that the rest of us don't watch for discrepancies in the pools if he wants. That's just another weapon, in addition to past performance lines. If you think that’s all there is to it, that’s okay by me. I’m not on this thread to discuss my selection process versus the 99 % that use antiquated and inefficient handicapping techniques. Overlays comments about my techniques are only the tip of the iceberg based on some of the comments I’ve posted on PA previously.
Greyfox
Tote Master, I admit that I am "brainwashed" as you say to looking at the Past to Predict the future. For me, in a horse race, the dictum : "Past performance is the best predictor to future performance!" is a given.
There are of course other predictors that I take into accountAre you saying throw away past performance lines, they're of no value? That means rolling the dice or watching car license plates or buying quick picks to me..I was once in your position, and it was very difficult for me to give up on the PP’s. I asked myself why did I get into this game to begin with? To be honest, it was to build enough capital to hire an attorney to submit a patent application. 7 years ago when I asked that question I decided to do something very unorthodox. I’m still doing it today, and I’ll never return to traditional handicapping. Mainly because I know what’s missing!
Kelso
I'm sufficiently new to betting on horses that I don't yet have an old perspective. What, specifically please, is the perspective you suggest? I’m not going to repeat the comments on my current philosophies on this game, but since Mike (PA Administrator) would not let me remove them (or remove them himself) they’re still available if you care to look.
Thaskalos
We are playing a game where 99% of the players are long term losers, the game's most successful trainers have been suspended for cheating (which makes you wonder what the small guys trying to earn a modest living are doing ) twelve jockeys have been suspended with no reason whatsoever given, and TOTE MASTER"S advice to us is to "stop whining and try winning for a change." Very profound. I suppose when you are into tote board watching none of this matters because all you have to do is follow the money. Any chance that he might reduce his asking price ( $25 a day per race card is a little steep for me) I think we all would like to find out if he is really on to something. I’m glad there are some who know how to read and comprehend things! Unfortunately, its a bit too late. Access to my domain is by referral only. I opened the door here at PA sometime ago and was naturally met with lots of skepticism and disbelief. If you’re seriously considering something worthwhile in this life you might want to remember 2 basic phases, “You Get what you Pay For” and "Opportunity only knocks Once".
Thaskalos
The problem with Tote Master is not his methodology but his confrontational style. Take a look at some of his posts. Is it "brainwashing" to think that analyzing the past might help in predicting the future? Should we all abandon the racing form and concentrate on the tote board instead? And if so, will our success be assured? I didn't know that the tote watchers were making all the money!! I’ll never tell!

But getting back to the topic at hand, it seems to me that so many here seem to be concerned with falling numbers (of people and pools). I’ve heard the same scenario for years and guess what?! The game is still here and still very healthy. If you’re really concerned about increasing those numbers: Force the powers-to-be to open up the entire game to all states! Eliminate all this BS with only being able to wager on specific tracks through specific organizations! And if you want to really open it up: Forget about “Take-out” and demand that ALL revenues derived from betting the horses be TAX FREE!

Just these few suggestions would drive the numbers off the wall!
I GUARANTEE IT!

[robert99]

T,

In UK, we can bet on any horse race in the world and all revenues from betting are tax free. Betting on horseracing is still in free fall both in absolute and relative terms. Data is given in previous post. Times have actually changed.

[PaceAdvantage]

T,

In UK, we can bet on any horse race in the world and all revenues from betting are tax free. Betting on horseracing is still in free fall both in absolute and relative terms. Data is given in previous post. Times have actually changed.Does this mean that ToteMaster's guarantee is now null and void?

[robert99]

Does this mean that ToteMaster's guarantee is now null and void?


Well I am sure ToteMaster would honour all such guarantees for USA racing.
Not sure exactly what he would pay out though, without watching the Tote board.

[Cangamble]

Quote:
CanGambleTote Master, as I've explained, the only real winners can be those playing at Betfair or those who take advantage of rebate shops.
Well your explanation might be adequate for some, but I say that any “serious” player that has to rely on rebates is only kidding themselves!
**********************************************
Lets see, if you bet 500,000 in a year, and you return 490,000 betting at the track, you beat the take out but lost 10G's. If you get 10% rebated, you make 40G's. Kidding themselves?
Quote:
CanGamble
The game has changed because of slots
Maybe for you is has, but it hasn’t changed a bit for me. I’ll always be an exotics player, never looking for Winners per se, but rather always looking for Winning Plays. I could really care less about take-outs, rebates, or paying Uncle Sam. Its all part of the game.
*****************************
We don't pay tax in Canada and it is still next to impossible to be a winner at the track because of the outrageous take-outs. The game has changed because the stupid bettor isn't feeding the pools anymore, they are playing slots. You have to be blind not to understand this. Also, your rhetoric sounds like it comes from a racetrack exec. It aint working here. The track depends on idiots not to worry about how much they rip off the bettors.
Quote:
CanGamble
25 years ago, there were winners at the track, and not that many, but it was possible (only one track, and plenty of casual bettors). It isn't possible anymore in the long run. That is the way it is, and you can call this whining, but it is fact.
I beg to differ!
*********************
You can beg to differ, but you have nothing to back you up.

[Tote Master]

Some interesting recent responses, particularly from PA!
Not surprising though.

For our friends from the UK:
I don’t follow Euoopean horse racing pre se and in particular the goings on in the UK. However if the following is even close to being the truth, one might ask, “Why would anyone with any business savvy and real investment capital bother backing a dead horse?”
Perhaps they know just a bit more about this game than the purveyors of gloom and doom who invest their big 5 pounds/day.
UK Horse Racing to Attract Investments of Over £300 Million
Blog it!By Grant Nelson | Tuesday, October 31, 2006 - 15:01
Categories: Sports | Business & Finance

According to a report commissioned by the Racecourse Holdings Trust, British horse-racing will attract £300 million in investments over the next five years. This will make it the country's second most popular sports investment sector following football.
The new statistics will be published this week, just before the opening of the new racing season, exposes the growth of the horse-racing business in the UK.
The findings show that jump racing is the fastest-growing part of the industry, with attendance up 43 per cent between 2001 and 2005. Between November and April, the peak winter season, jump racing, where horses jump over fixed fences, accounts for most of the race betting turnover.
88,000 people from across the UK are employed by the horse racing industry. £420 million has been spent on renovating course facilities while tax revenues from horse racing and related gambling contributed £280 million to the UK treasury.
(Source link: http://news.777.com/2006-10/uk-horse-racing-attract-300-million)
And by the way, that Guarantee still stands!
Particularly if ALL 3 of my suggestions ever came to fruition..
Notice, not a single one suggests any type of Control mechanism, but rather just the opposite.

[robert99]

Some interesting recent responses, particularly from PA!
Not surprising though.

For our friends from the UK:
I don’t follow Euoopean horse racing pre se and in particular the goings on in the UK. However if the following is even close to being the truth, one might ask, “Why would anyone with any business savvy and real investment capital bother backing a dead horse?”
Perhaps they know just a bit more about this game than the purveyors of gloom and doom who invest their big 5 pounds/day.

And by the way, that Guarantee still stands!
Particularly if ALL 3 of my suggestions ever came to fruition..
Notice, not a single one suggests any type of Control mechanism, but rather just the opposite.

Totemaster,

You are confusing the issue of racecourse attendance and that of betting on horseracing. The former is a great day out, a coach full of booze, and attracts the leisure punter who may bet the £5, or nothing at all on course. The latter, which funds racing, is more what this thread is about as the off-track punter bets by far the majority of the cash on horseracing (99%).

You have flagged the issue of reliance of blogs, which are quotes from quotes, on resembling the truth. Racecourse attendance has risen since 1999 by up to 45% but is now falling back. Percentages are often intentionally used to give a false impression to casual readers, and the average actual attendance on race days in Scotland, which is the only place still growing, is only 3,300 per race day. Attendance for winter jump racing is far worse and all weather flat tracks have had to be built to maintain the racing income from betting in that miserable outdoor season.

RHT run 14 of the UK's 59 course but an investment of £300M over 5 years is only £4.3M per course per year. Key courses such as Epsom (Derby) and Newmarket (HQ) have ongoing major refurbishments of £27M and £10M. Total UK prizemoney remains at an annual £100M for all 59 courses which is out of kilter with the wishful £300M RHT investment sum. So how do they expect to recoup that investment except through subsidy (from the horseracing bettor)?
These are not business investors.

"£420 million has been spent (over the years) on renovating course facilities while tax revenues from horse racing and related gambling contributed £280 (pa) million to the UK treasury."

Again this misleads as the courses are some 100 years old and many are falling apart - they cannot get planning permission to build houses over them but can get subsidy to renew, so they do. The "related gambling" again confuses the lay reader as that gambling does not mean horse racing, which as the Government agrees, has recently fallen from 90% to 40%. The Government will pull the subsidy if it it is not getting its take from horseracing bets. Pull the subsidy and the courses and support industry fall like a pack of cards. Which is back to the the point of this thread.