Harness tarnish

[BIG RED]

Front page of todays New York Post is all about harness race fixing.

"A grand jury is probing allegations that trotters at posh Saratoga were shot up with painkilling snake venom in a harness-race fixing scheme."

The regular media seems to always spread the bad news about racing, but quiet all other times. I would check for links to post, but have to leave now, just seen this going out the door.

[cj]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02052007/news/columnists/race_fix_scandal_columnists_murray_weiss.htm

[the little guy]

I'm shocked!

[melman]

Did you guys read that article?? It was so badly written as to be laughable. Check this out from the article, "the investigation began last September, shortly after the popular summer racing season, which attracks the well-heeled, affluent horse set, sources said". What a joke the "well heeled, affluent set" at Saratoga HARNESS?? Geez Of course we all know there are NO t-bred trainers using various drugs. :jump:

[speedking]

Did you guys read that article?? It was so badly written as to be laughable. Check this out from the article, "the investigation began last September, shortly after the popular summer racing season, which attracks the well-heeled, affluent horse set, sources said". What a joke the "well heeled, affluent set" at Saratoga HARNESS?? Geez Of course we all know there are NO t-bred trainers using various drugs. :jump:

That was the only shocking line in the story, Melman :D And didn't Ledford get busted for Epogen in NJ? It's not uncommon in the business. Illegal, but not uncommon.

speedking

[melman]

Speedking, I see you got my main point right away. :) Yes Ledford was also caught with drugs. Does anyone really believe however that t-bred trainers are using drugs also? My thinking is catch them and get rid of them in both of the sports.

[speedking]

Hope I didn't imply that the TB's are any cleaner :lol: On the major circuits I believe they are much worse and place most of the blame on the vets.

I often wonder what would show up if they randomly pulled blood on entries within a few hours of the draw.

speedking

[44PACE]

How can anyone bet harness racing. I will argue with people who say a jockey threw a race by holding back a horse in a Thouroughbreed or a Quarter horse race becouse I have seen how difficult it is for gate crew people who weigh 2x as much as a jockey to load a stubborn horse, but I do believe that it is extremely easy to throw a harness race.First they travel more slowly and second they can position themselves behind someones wheels.

Watching harness racing is like watching Pro wrestling you know its fake.

[Tom]

Did you guys read that article?? It was so badly written as to be laughable. Check this out from the article, "the investigation began last September, shortly after the popular summer racing season, which attracks the well-heeled, affluent horse set, sources said". What a joke the "well heeled, affluent set" at Saratoga HARNESS?? Geez Of course we all know there are NO t-bred trainers using various drugs. :jump:

I think they were talking about Zaf and andicap! ;)

[Tom]

How can anyone bet harness racing.

Watching harness racing is like watching Pro wrestling you know its fake.

Many here would disagree with you. Me, for one. Harness is agreat game, once you take time to learn about it, which most do not. You don't go to the harness track and handciap like you do at the flats. Not and win, anyway.
I've put in the work and am now enjoying the benefits - formful, entertaining racing - infact, much better than at a lot of t-bred tracks. And there are guys on this board who are very, very good at the game.

[trying2win]

Many here would disagree with you. Me, for one. Harness is agreat game, once you take time to learn about it, which most do not. You don't go to the harness track and handciap like you do at the flats. Not and win, anyway.
I've put in the work and am now enjoying the benefits - formful, entertaining racing - infact, much better than at a lot of t-bred tracks. And there are guys on this board who are very, very good at the game.

I disagree with 44PACE's views on harness racing too. In my opinion, Tom is right on with his comments about harness racing here.

T2W

[melman]

I understand the word "affluent" but maybe Tom or Zaf or Andicap could explain the meaning of "well-heeled". :) Does it mean they where costly Nike's? :jump:

[speedking]

I understand the word "affluent" but maybe Tom or Zaf or Andicap could explain the meaning of "well-heeled". :) Does it mean they where costly Nike's? :jump:

Air Niatross' ???

speedking

[Tom]

They wore 6 inch pumps the nite they went to Saratoga Harness. :lol:

[melman]

Tom, did you see any containers that might have had snake venom in them> :jump:

[wilderness]

These types of discussions in this forum have proven a breeding ground for dissention which doesn't promote the fine efforts of the forum itself and the participants.

"blocking" has been going on for ever!
In the 60's, 70's and even early 80's, a common injury to many horses was bowed tendons. They required long rest and a slow return of heavy doctoring, however one the tendons bowed they almost always resurfaced worse than their intiail appearance.

In 60's, 70's and even early 80's, it was quite common to see a notation in racelines known as "de-nerved".
Althuogh a dangerous practice because the horse loses the ability to feel pain in some portions of their legs. This lose of pain results in the horses inability to react to more sever pain and could not only cause injury to that particular horse and driver, however every participant in the race.

Thus de-nerving was ONLY suggested to be used by horsemen who had the experience and capability to be aware of their horses pain (almost an oxymoron.)

Blocking is basically the same thing as de-nerving, however rather than being permanent, the result is temporary and goes away after the drug wears off.
It's still suggested to be utilized by horsemen who have the experience and capability to determine the horses threshhold for pain.

[Zaf]

I think they were talking about Zaf and andicap! ;)

well-heeled, affluent horse set :lol:

Z

[BIG RED]

These types of discussions in this forum have proven a breeding ground for dissention which doesn't promote the fine efforts of the forum itself and the participants.

"blocking" has been going on for ever!
In the 60's, 70's and even early 80's, a common injury to many horses was bowed tendons. They required long rest and a slow return of heavy doctoring, however one the tendons bowed they almost always resurfaced worse than their intiail appearance.

In 60's, 70's and even early 80's, it was quite common to see a notation in racelines known as "de-nerved".
Althuogh a dangerous practice because the horse loses the ability to feel pain in some portions of their legs. This lose of pain results in the horses inability to react to more sever pain and could not only cause injury to that particular horse and driver, however every participant in the race.

Thus de-nerving was ONLY suggested to be used by horsemen who had the experience and capability to be aware of their horses pain (almost an oxymoron.)

Blocking is basically the same thing as de-nerving, however rather than being permanent, the result is temporary and goes away after the drug wears off.
It's still suggested to be utilized by horsemen who have the experience and capability to determine the horses threshhold for pain.

I don't see where you say it is legal, that's the point of the article. Maybe they are starting to crack down on all non legal procedures. I mean, milkshakes never hurt a horse, then the vodka bit, seems that just maybe once and for all they are trying to get rid of all the sneaky moves. Then us horseplayers may just have a total list of who's on what, and can apply it appropriately ?

[wilderness]

I don't see where you say it is legal, that's the point of the article.

There is a policy where when a horse is "denerved" that is supposed to be published in the program. The requirenment of the program listing from years ago, is the only reason I'm aware of the effects and causes. I also seem to recall some reference to denerving in the OLD USTA Care and Training (1969).

As far as blocking, I'd suggest consulting your local racing commission for a statement on policy.

Maybe they are starting to crack down on all non legal procedures. I mean, milkshakes never hurt a horse, then the vodka bit, seems that just maybe once and for all they are trying to get rid of all the sneaky moves.

No matter how many methods of detection are implemented, there is ALWAYS going to be a gray area where something is known to be enhanced or accomplished, however there does not exist substantial evidence to either enforce the policies of a racing jurisdiction or of criminal law.

It's always been this way and always will be.

In addition, drenching which is frequently confused with "tubing or milkshakes" is perfectly legal, as long as it's not done on a raceday and before the race takes place.

Then us horseplayers may just have a total list of who's on what, and can apply it appropriately ?

There are not enough horsepalyers left to support the industry of horsemen and horses that breeders keep producing.
More information is available today to horseplayers than in years and decades past, and yet they (horseplayers) strive for full disclosure of everything.
Full disclosure hasn't happened in the past and it will not happen in the future.
If a horseplayer desires full disclosure?
The only way that is possible is if he/she, owns, grooms, trains and drives their own horses. And even then, with detention barns, the possibility exists for exteniating circumstances.

In summary, the outlook for the current horse racing community has NOT a thing to do with the desires and wishes of the genearl public and/or horsepalyers.
The industry (horse racing) is no longer dependent of the funds of pari-mutual racing, rather the indudstry (s) are subsidized by another form of gambling, which will bring a lesser market share to their already dismal market share.

How's this for market share?

Are my numbers correct? (169 / 298,909,937

http://freekeywords.wordtracker.com/?seed=%22harness+racing%22&suggest=Hit+Me&adult_filter=remove_dubious

"Standardbred" resluts are just under half that.
"Standardbreds" resluts are just under one-quarter that.

[Rollinsmolin]

How can anyone bet harness racing. I will argue with people who say a jockey threw a race by holding back a horse in a Thouroughbreed or a Quarter horse race becouse I have seen how difficult it is for gate crew people who weigh 2x as much as a jockey to load a stubborn horse, but I do believe that it is extremely easy to throw a harness race.First they travel more slowly and second they can position themselves behind someones wheels.

Watching harness racing is like watching Pro wrestling you know its fake.

whats up with this? im a harness driver in chicago and theres more fixed races in T~breds then anywhere else... hint Tampa bay how many boat races?... and other tracks also ... i watch T~breds and harness also own,train,drive harness racing horses.. you may think its easier to "stiff" in harness racing well its not as simple and easy as you think you have alot of people watching you especially in that car that goes by ... they see you grabbing up to much or purposly letting another guy out when hes locked in and all sorts of different angles and yadda yadda im just saying its not as fixed as you think.. sometimes guys do make real bad decisions.. like me on the fav a couple weeks ago i wanted to duck the horse and come with cover later on .. well the trainer told me send em ... so i get parked the whole mile but with cover and the guy im following was absolutely done had no go .. i tip 3deep and try to get by knowing i dont clear b4 the turn im done ... well i didnt clear and it looked like i stiffed the horse.. nope i didnt but it just sucks lol

Bobby smolin

[BIG RED]

Wilderness, thanks for the feedback. Very informative for me.

I'm a T~Bred player that plays harness on a mon. or teus. just to pass some time, if I have time. I know we can never get full discloser, but maybe they are just stepping security up a little more. I'm a wishful thinker :rolleyes:

[wilderness]

BigRed,
I haven't held a captivating interest in T-Breds for quite some time.
My internet activity of the past ten years has never focused (with only a few annual exceptions) on T-Breds.

There's a T-Bred list that has been active quite a long time (possibly 15-years or more).
I'm never able to recall the name of the thing and unable to locate the link.

I'm sure that discussions regarding what's going on in T-Bred racing (as far as the insights that might be provided from a trainer or caretaker) in the backstretch would be commonly shared in that group.

Unfortuantely, these types of T-Bred issues never seemed to be dramatized in the press as comparable to what exists in harness racing.
For newspapers and other publications, and generally speaking, bad press is good press and generates sales. Regardless of whether it's true or even accurate.
With the declining representation of "qualified reporters" in the press (regardless of breed), the bad press is going to get far worse because most of the reporters don't have any real background or genuine insights into horses and racing.

[WarHorse]

wilderness:

>>There's a T-Bred list that has been active quite a long time (possibly 15-years or more).
I'm never able to recall the name of the thing and unable to locate the link.

Pedigree Query?

[speedking]

whats up with this? im a harness driver in chicago and theres more fixed races in T~breds then anywhere else... hint Tampa bay how many boat races?... and other tracks also ... i watch T~breds and harness also own,train,drive harness racing horses.. you may think its easier to "stiff" in harness racing well its not as simple and easy as you think you have alot of people watching you especially in that car that goes by ... they see you grabbing up to much or purposly letting another guy out when hes locked in and all sorts of different angles and yadda yadda im just saying its not as fixed as you think.. sometimes guys do make real bad decisions.. like me on the fav a couple weeks ago i wanted to duck the horse and come with cover later on .. well the trainer told me send em ... so i get parked the whole mile but with cover and the guy im following was absolutely done had no go .. i tip 3deep and try to get by knowing i dont clear b4 the turn im done ... well i didnt clear and it looked like i stiffed the horse.. nope i didnt but it just sucks lol

Bobby smolin

One of the biggest problems is that the majority of the people don't understand what the driver is faced with and what he is doing in the bike. I don't think there was ever a day at the simulcast centers when I did not hear at least a couple people screaming that the driver was holding a horse back. They don't have a clue that the driver is leaning back trying to keep the horse together while getting all out of him that he can. Tough to overcome this perception.

speedking

[wilderness]

wilderness:

>>There's a T-Bred list that has been active quite a long time (possibly 15-years or more).
I'm never able to recall the name of the thing and unable to locate the link.

Pedigree Query?

The Derby List

http://www.horse-races.net/derby/