AQU Cancelled after Race 5

[rrbauer]

Don't know why....Went over to watch R6 and they were announcing the cancellation

[Steve 'StatMan']

Horrific spill in Race 5 took out much of the field. This leaving the clubhouse turn.

Also had a 3 horse spill in an earlier race entering the home stretch.

Since they just had an awful spill I think Friday that injured 2 riders, all this looms rather ominously.

I'm not sure of anything else, and others likely know a lot more than I.

[SAL]

They just announced on TVG that all the jocks are protesting the hospital that the injured jocks are being taken to. It doesn't seem to be a safety issue with the track surface itself.

[blind squirrel]

They just announced on TVG that all the jocks are protesting the hospital that the injured jocks are being taken to. It doesn't seem to be a safety issue with the track surface itself.


just when ya think you've seen it all......jockeys refuse to ride
because they don't like JAMAICA HOSPITAL?.....isn't this a issue
that should be resolved without cancellation of the card?

MATT and KEN on TVG said fans will be understanding.DO YOU
SEE WHY THIS GAME IS LOSING ALL IT'S FANS!!!...do you think
they'll be stopping a NFL game because the players don't like
a certain ER?...

[Steve 'StatMan']

Horrific spill in Race 5 took out much of the field. This leaving the clubhouse turn.

Also had a 3 horse spill in an earlier race entering the home stretch.

Since they just had an awful spill I think Friday that injured 2 riders, all this looms rather ominously.

I'm not sure of anything else, and others likely know a lot more than I.

Sorry - Errors in my post. Only 1 spill today - affected 5 of the 6 runners in the 5th race, 2 DNFs. There was no other spill on Saturday - I had reviewed the spill on Thursday's 8th race (not Friday) and got confused.

Review - 1 spill Saturday, 1 spill Thursday.

I'm sorry about the mistakes and any confusion.

[turfeyejoe]

Here's the story as I heard it.
Apparently, Jose Santos did not like the way he was treated following his spill earlier in the week. When another spill occurred today, Norberto Arroyo insisted he be taken some place other than Jamaica Hospital. The law requires that injured personnel be taken to the nearest facility, which is Jamaica, so that's where Arroyo went. When he reported back to his fellow jocks, they got together and said "We're not riding" until this issue is resolved.
Pretty strange, huh?

[fouroneone]

this whole day was odd at AQU - strange camera angles, problems with graphics, late race starts, audio feed cut-outs..........

[rrbauer]

this whole day was odd at AQU - strange camera angles, problems with graphics, late race starts, audio feed cut-outs..........


Is AQU a NYRA-track? :)

[Steve 'StatMan']

Another thread is open that relates to the horse and trainer involved in this spill. There were some serious red flags regarding the horse that went down and triggered the chain-reaction.

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34211

[Tom]

If they refused to ride for that reason, then NYRA should ban them all off the track and fine their asses off.

Too friggin bad they don't like what the law says. The solution - don't ride in NY.

[jotb]

Hello all:

From what I understand one of the riders yesterday (Friday) was brought to Jamaica Hospital and had to wait around 5 hours before he was seen. There seems to be a problem with Jamaica Hospital and the jocks. I believe the condition of the surface is quite poor and that is why we are seeing the breakdowns. Don't be surprised if the track is shut down tomorrow.

Joe

[classhandicapper]

Just for the record, I live in Queens, NY. I can tell you that Jamaica Hospital would not be my first choice if I was injured. I've never actually been there, but I don't believe it has a terrific reputation. It's not shocking to me that the jocks would not be satisfied with their treatment or want to go somewhere else.

[Tom]

But it is not their call. It is a law, and not NYRA's decision.
Refusing to ride is chicken shit and I would throw the bums off the track.
Then thier problems would be solved.
What's next, no rinding because they have to pay taxes?

[Steve 'StatMan']

Sounds like a bad law. Might serve as a good default, unless a rider can make a choice / leave prior instructions.

Normally, really bad laws are the ones that get broken by everyone and get repealled.

But if this case, it's a state agency (NYRA) having to care for the injured riders, and state agencies of course don't get a choice about following laws. (Yes, civil servants break laws all the time. But at an agency level, esp. with one battling with the state to retain their franchise, I can see why NYRA doesn't want to break the law. And I can see why the riders want the option to choose a different hospital.

[OTM Al]

Classhandicapper is not wrong here. There are certain hospitals in the NY city area that are really really bad. A few weeks ago I started having very bad breathing problems. We did not call the ambulance because they would have taken me to Coney Island Hospital, which is one of the worst. Took a car service up to Beth Israel instead. Fortunately I am ok and they got everything figured out. Probably would still be waiting to see someone at Coney Island.....Injury is a part of this job and that's a fact, but I have no problem with them if they want to get new arrangements for medical care. One has to figure too though that there may be something a little hinky with the track, though if you look at what Cadillac Cruiser was running in before and the way his PP's stacked up against the field, I'm wondering if he was not sound as well. May be a problem with the track vets too for all we know.

[garyoz]

In the '80's, I was living in Queens and injured my eye. I was directed to Jamaica Hospital. I was new to NYC and didn't know better. It was a Saturday night, waited 8 hours, never saw a nurse or physician. I think they were trying to get me frustrated so that they had less work and fewer insurance forms to deal with. I left in frustration. The junkies and others in the waiting room also had something to do with it. Waited until morning and went NYU, where I was taken care of in 30 minutes.

Patients have a right to go where they want to go. I don't doubt that they get better care elsewhere. If the EMS tech calls it life threatening, that it another issue. It could also be an insurance company thing, limiting liability by taking the injured party to the nearest ER. But, from what I know I fully support the jocks.

At Belmont I think they go to Long Island Jewish Hospital, much better than Jamaica.

[Tom]

I think ambulances area not taxis. You go to the nearest and they get back to work. They serve no one drivng around the city. You can always transfer to another hospital - at your own expense if you arenot pleased with the service.
But to take it out on thousands of people is just plain juvenile. I say BAN them from the track. Let them go find one in a better neighborhood.
Pinheads.

[BIG RED]

So the discussion is about emergency health care?

[JustRalph]

The Ghost of Laffite Pincay haunts them...........and can you blame them?

[Pace Cap'n]

The Ghost of Laffite Pincay haunts them...........and can you blame them?

Or Ralph Neves... (http://www.newsoftheodd.com/article1023.html)

[The Hawk]

I think ambulances area not taxis. You go to the nearest and they get back to work. They serve no one drivng around the city. You can always transfer to another hospital - at your own expense if you arenot pleased with the service.
But to take it out on thousands of people is just plain juvenile. I say BAN them from the track. Let them go find one in a better neighborhood.
Pinheads.

Easy for you to say, sitting in your drawers and playing horses from your living room. "Take it out on" thousands of people? How exactly are these thousands of people aggrieved? They can't play any NY bred races tomorrow? You and I well know they'll find something else to bet instead.

This is one of the few positives about being "independent contractors": if you don't feel safe in doing your job, you don't work. The downside of being an independent contractor is if you get thrown from a horse and paralyzed you may or may not be insured.

You're honestly saying that if you were at work and were seriously hurt, and management was taking you to a substandard clinic instead of a hospital 10 minutes further away, you'd have no problem with that?

[IRISHLADSTABLE]

I believe the card being cxl had more to do with the track condition then the jocks concern over which hospital they would be sent to shu they get hurt.
That is a major concern thought.
I live a few blocks away from Coney Island hospital , I wouldn't send my dog there. My daughter and I have Asthma real bad, Jimmy Jr has Juvenile Diabetes. In the past 6 years we have lived here I've had to call 911 several times. I always instructed the EMS driver to take me to another hospital.

The law states that if its a " Life and Death " situation you MUST be taken to the nearest hospital.

Ifs it not a life and death situation you can request another hospital
( within a reasonable distance)

Jimmy

[PaceAdvantage]

Track condition? I'm curious why you might think this.

The break downs over the last couple of days took place on two completely different areas of the track....unless you're not referring to the break downs in your reasoning that it is track condition and not jockey protest.


Jockeys refuse to ride over hospital concerns
By DAVID GRENING
OZONE PARK, N.Y. - After the second gruesome spill in three days at Aqueduct, the jockeys refused to ride the final four races of Saturday's card. Further, management decided to cancel Sunday's card. Neither decision, however, was based on the condition of the racetrack.

Read the rest here: http://www.drf.com/news/article/82346.html

[Tom]

You're honestly saying that if you were at work and were seriously hurt, and management was taking you to a substandard clinic instead of a hospital 10 minutes further away, you'd have no problem with that?

Learn to READ, dude. You are seeing sentences not there. Halucinogens?

It is THE LAW that says ambulances have to go to the nearest hospital, NOT THE TRACK. I was hurt at work once. The ambulance picked me up off the parking lot and took where they take people with broken ankles. Managment did not tell them where to take me.

Read that slowly, move your lips if you have to. Thisis the internet, no one will know.:rolleyes:

Now, who says the place they take them is sub-standard? As long as the place is certified, is open, and functional, the JOCKS opinion of it is irrelevant.

Thousands of people who were already at the track, spend their money on parking, a form, a program, maybe a seat, a meal.,....YES! THEY COUNT MORE THAN A COUPLE OF PINHEADS.

I say again, ban the pinheads and be done with them.


There.
I feel better now.
How about YOU? :lol:

[ranchwest]

Learn to READ, dude. You are seeing sentences not there. Halucinogens?

It is THE LAW that says ambulances have to go to the nearest hospital, NOT THE TRACK. I was hurt at work once. The ambulance picked me up off the parking lot and took where they take people with broken ankles. Managment did not tell them where to take me.

Read that slowly, move your lips if you have to. Thisis the internet, no one will know.:rolleyes:

Now, who says the place they take them is sub-standard? As long as the place is certified, is open, and functional, the JOCKS opinion of it is irrelevant.

Thousands of people who were already at the track, spend their money on parking, a form, a program, maybe a seat, a meal.,....YES! THEY COUNT MORE THAN A COUPLE OF PINHEADS.

I say again, ban the pinheads and be done with them.


There.
I feel better now.
How about YOU? :lol:

How did New Yorkers get a reputation for a lack of compassion?

[cj]

As ALWAYS in this game, the bettor takes it in the shorts.

[speedking]

Thousands of people who were already at the track, spend their money on parking, a form, a program, maybe a seat, a meal.,....YES! THEY COUNT MORE THAN A COUPLE OF PINHEADS.

I say again, ban the pinheads and be done with them.


There.
I feel better now.
How about YOU? :lol:

I am in total agreement! Besides, they don't need interpreters at Jamaica Hospital...they're right at home!

And yes, though not living in Manhattan any longer, I still consider myself a New Yorker :)

speedking

[Tom]

How did New Yorkers get a reputation for a lack of compassion?

What lack of compassion?
The law says to do this, the amblulance does it, not the track, not the fans.
si it makes perect sense to blame them and cost everyne money.
Screw the riders, ban their sorry asses - and fine them significantly.

There is no safety issue here, no lack of medical care, everything done by the book, but the pinheads had a "bug" up their butts.
guess what - this game is not about jockeys.

[ghostyapper]

Protesting the remaining card because of bad track conditions is one thing, but doing it because you don't like the care you're getting at the local hospital is completely unprofessional. Every rider that took part in this should, at the minimum, get a 30 day suspension and fined the amount the track lost yesterday and every other day it cancels because of this chilidish act.

[Tom]

Good point - if they said it was due to percieved unafe track conditin, I would support them 100%, as I have always done when saftey is the issue.

[The Hawk]

Learn to READ, dude. You are seeing sentences not there. Halucinogens?

It is THE LAW that says ambulances have to go to the nearest hospital, NOT THE TRACK. I was hurt at work once. The ambulance picked me up off the parking lot and took where they take people with broken ankles. Managment did not tell them where to take me.

You're not too swift, Tom, so we'll go slow. My apologies.

First off, I don't believe this happened to you. I think you made it up to strengthen your point. But let's say it happened, and let's stretch this further. Let's say, in this hypothetical situation, that you decided to wear your high heels to work and fell off them. Then, let's say you were taken to a place where, instead of x-raying your ankle, they treated you for a colonoscopy.

You may or may not have complained.

Let's go out on a long limb and say you didn't care for this procedure, and you told your superiors at work that treatment at that facility was sub-par. Management said "We have no choice, it's the closest". You told all your friends at work, and they say "Yes, Tom is a complete jackass, but he's right! We won't work until we're satisfied with this situation, which is critical!" You'd be within your rights not to work until you were happy with your prospective emergency medical care, no? It's bad enough you may or may not be insured.

Read that slowly, move your lips if you have to. Thisis the internet, no one will know.:rolleyes:

Is this how you troll the chat boards? Sounds like it might work.

"Move your lips, this is the internet, no one will know...."

Didn't I see you on Dateline? :lol:

Maybe you should stop, er, multitasking, and type with both hands. Less typos.


Now, who says the place they take them is sub-standard? As long as the place is certified, is open, and functional, the JOCKS opinion of it is irrelevant.

Seems to me you answered your own question here. Go back and read what you wrote, slowly, move your lips...

THE JOCKEYS say it's sub-standard! They're the ones that have to be treated there. I don't know where you live, but there are LOTS of places in NYC, not just hospitals, that are certified, open and functional, but you wouldn't step foot in them. Obviously, the opinions of the jocks ARE relevant...there is no racing today. Yes, right, they cancelled because of the weather :)

Thousands of people who were already at the track, spend their money on parking, a form, a program, maybe a seat, a meal.,....YES! THEY COUNT MORE THAN A COUPLE OF PINHEADS.

First of all, "thousands" is a stretch in February at Aqueduct. Secondly, they likely received vouchers for programs, though I don't know this for sure. But the DRF has lots of other tracks in it. They parked their cars and sat in their seats for 5 only races, but this not 1975, there are lots of other wagering options. How many people do you think left the track when they cancelled the live racing after 5 races?

And were they forced to regurgitate their meals? This I don't know for sure either. Unlikely, though.


I say again, ban the pinheads and be done with them.


Yes, that replacement jocks thing worked out really well 20 years ago during the strike.

There.
I feel better now.
How about YOU? :lol:

Much. :bang:

[The Hawk]

Protesting the remaining card because of bad track conditions is one thing, but doing it because you don't like the care you're getting at the local hospital is completely unprofessional. Every rider that took part in this should, at the minimum, get a 30 day suspension and fined the amount the track lost yesterday and every other day it cancels because of this chilidish act.

I support this 30-day ban, if it means 30 less days of racing at Aqueduct.

[cj]

Yes, that replacement jocks thing worked out really well 20 years ago during the strike.

Much. :bang:

Forgetting all the other foolishness you posted, this one actually worked out great. The bettors didn't seem to care, and the jocks came back to work PDQ. As far as who is needed in this game, jocks are pretty far down the food chain in my opinion.

[Tom]

:lol: Good reply. I appreciate a good comeback. :ThmbUp:

I didn't make it up - I fell on the cie at night coming back from diner.
But back to facts - it is not the tracks call where the ambulance takes people. It is a law - here as well - go to the nearest hospital. Ambulances area considered emergency vehicles, hence, fast response. I don't care what the jockeys say about it, the State, not the rides rate facilities. Health care has noting to do with it. Ambulances are required to pick you up regardless of your insured status. Why is it so hard to understand - this is not a free-transport service, it is emergency medaical care that falls under regulations not set by the track?
Frankly, if I were in charge of the "sub-par" facility, I would sue for the comments they jock made.

And as for "thousands," you suggest there were not that many people in attendence yesterday?

Nice reply - high on style, but substance needs work, but heck, good try.;)

[ELA]

The track, NYRA, management, etc. -- are NOT the jockey's employer; so that analogy is not a valid one. Nobody can force the jockeys to do anything they don't want to do, as long as they stand united. And, NYRA will not ask for a suspension, nor will the stewards and/or the NYSR&WB suspend jockeys in mass for refusing to ride. Won't happen.

Eric

[Tom]

Then NYRA has no balls.
Clearly, the jocks are in the wrong here.
It is the law, not NYRA who decides ambulance rules.
If NYRA is willing to lose racing days to wipe the noses of pinheads, then so be it - there are a lot of other tracks to play. NYRA is not on my A or B list anyway.

But what is to settle?
NYRA doesn't make laws.

[OTM Al]

I still can't blame them though. They sent Santos away with a diagnosis of bruised ribs. He had a broken breastbone and cracked vertebrae. That is a screwup that could have cost a life.

[The Hawk]

Forgetting all the other foolishness you posted, this one actually worked out great. The bettors didn't seem to care, and the jocks came back to work PDQ.
Maybe unless you were betting dueces and fives, or you were a chronic, you cut back your betting severely during the strike after watching a few races. Unless of course, you didn't know what the hell you were looking at anyway, which may be the case in your situation. After all, if you're just making pace figures, maybe you don't even need to watch the races intently.
As far as who is needed in this game, jocks are pretty far down the food chain in my opinion.
Pretty ignorant post. Are the jockeys who would replace the existing jockeys not then also considered jockeys? So how do we not need jockeys? I guess at the top of the food chain is the bettors, right? Since you make a living off the bettors, there's no surprise there.

Stick to the pace figure talk, makes you sound like you know something.

[The Hawk]

I still can't blame them though. They sent Santos away with a diagnosis of bruised ribs. He had a broken breastbone and cracked vertebrae. That is a screwup that could have cost a life.

EXACTLY, Al. But around here, who cares if he dies? They'll find a replacement rider for next time, someone "lower on the food chain" than Santos.

Clowns.

[the little guy]

It is important to add that the riders took a vote yesterday ( at around noon ) as to whether or not they would ride knowing full well that an injured rider would be transported to Jamaica. They voted and agreed to ride and then reneged on that decision AFTER Arroyo was injured.

[ranchwest]

Then NYRA has no balls.
Clearly, the jocks are in the wrong here.
It is the law, not NYRA who decides ambulance rules.
If NYRA is willing to lose racing days to wipe the noses of pinheads, then so be it - there are a lot of other tracks to play. NYRA is not on my A or B list anyway.

But what is to settle?
NYRA doesn't make laws.

If it were me riding (and certainly its not), I really would have only one concern, my health care. The source of causing poor health care would be irrelevant. The law, NYRA, New York, Aqueduct, the hospital, doesn't really matter. They apparently feel the hospital sucks. Myself, given a choice, I don't go to hospitals that suck and I don't suggest that others do, either.

[Tom]

If it were me riding (and certainly its not), I really would have only one concern, my health care. The source of causing poor health care would be irrelevant. The law, NYRA, New York, Aqueduct, the hospital, doesn't really matter. They apparently feel the hospital sucks. Myself, given a choice, I don't go to hospitals that suck and I don't suggest that others do, either.

Good for you.

How is that NYRA's problem or the bettors?
NTRA did not contract with the facility to handle accidents.
And why refuse to ride after this accident?
Why not refuse to ride before the card was run?

And where are the FACTS to support thier contention that the facility is offering substandard care?


The law doens't matter?
Since when?

When the pinheads pay thier own rides, they can determine the destinations.

[ranchwest]

Good for you.

How is that NYRA's problem or the bettors?
NTRA did not contract with the facility to handle accidents.
And why refuse to ride after this accident?
Why not refuse to ride before the card was run?

And where are the FACTS to support thier contention that the facility is offering substandard care?


The law doens't matter?
Since when?

When the pinheads pay thier own rides, they can determine the destinations.

You deserve an award for this post. Not one that anyone would cherish, but an award none the less.

[cj]

And where are the FACTS to support thier contention that the facility is offering substandard care?
From DRF:
Bill Nader, NYRA's senior vice president, accompanied Arroyo to Jamaica Hospital and said he was satisfied with the job hospital personnel did in attending to Arroyo.

"I told Luzzi if there was a spill I would go with the jockey and see it first-hand rather than listen to reports," Nader said. "I'm not disputing what Rita said, but what I've seen today has been highly professional and outstanding care, and hopefully this will be the beginning of a repaired relationship between Jamaica Hospital and the Aqueduct jockey colony."

[Tom]

You deserve an award for this post. Not one that anyone would cherish, but an award none the less.

Please, enlighten me - which facts have I presented that are not true?

[The Hawk]

From DRF:

Funny that CJ didn't post THIS part of the article. MUST have been an oversight:

"We made an agreement with management back in 1992-93 that unless you're in a severe state of trauma and fear for your life, you'll be taken to North Shore," said retured Hall of Fame rider Jerry Bailey. "The jockeys always felt Jamaica Hospital was a disaster. They have a team of doctors set up at North Shore to treat them."

[PaceAdvantage]

Isn't that completely silly though? Unless you're in a severe state of trauma and fear for your life???!!!!

"OK, I only have a bruised ankle....take me to the best care facility around, North Shore Hospital!!!"

The following day:

"My head is halfway caved in from being stepped on by a horse....take me to the worst facility around, Jamaica, PRONTO!!!"

Does this logic make sense to you?

[ranchwest]

Please, enlighten me - which facts have I presented that are not true?

I didn't say your facts were wrong. You just seem to be regarding the jockeys as if they're made by Mattel.

[the little guy]

It is important to add that the riders took a vote yesterday ( at around noon ) as to whether or not they would ride knowing full well that an injured rider would be transported to Jamaica. They voted and agreed to ride and then reneged on that decision AFTER Arroyo was injured.

I thought I would reprint my earlier post as it seems to be being ignored.

Do the people defending the jockeys feel that agreeing to ride under the circumstances that existed and then reneging on that decision, all in a matter of hours, is acceptable behavoir?

[cj]

I thought I would reprint my earlier post as it seems to be being ignored.

Do the people defending the jockeys feel that agreeing to ride under the circumstances that existed and then reneging on that decision, all in a matter of hours, is acceptable behavoir?

I missed this one. Pretty weak on the jocks part, and I'd love to see them banned. What kind of care you think they are going to get after a spill at Penn or CT?

[ryesteve]

Isn't that completely silly though? Unless you're in a severe state of trauma and fear for your life???!!!!

"OK, I only have a bruised ankle....take me to the best care facility around, North Shore Hospital!!!"

The following day:

"My head is halfway caved in from being stepped on by a horse....take me to the worst facility around, Jamaica, PRONTO!!!"

Does this logic make sense to you?
I understand what you're saying, but I just think they're trying to find a softer way of saying, "If the guy might be dead by the time we get to North Shore, we'll have to go to Jamaica"

[cj]

Funny that CJ didn't post THIS part of the article. MUST have been an oversight:

"We made an agreement with management back in 1992-93 that unless you're in a severe state of trauma and fear for your life, you'll be taken to North Shore," said retured Hall of Fame rider Jerry Bailey. "The jockeys always felt Jamaica Hospital was a disaster. They have a team of doctors set up at North Shore to treat them."

Funny? How about the fact is wasn't in the article I read, and still isn't. MUST be a mistake on your part, assuming we read the same article.

What does Jerry Bailey have to do with this? He is "retured", no?

[the little guy]

I have no problem with them wanting the best medical care they can get but the situation appears to be a legal one and they have to sign some sort of waiver in order to use North Shore instead of Jamaica while riding at Aqueduct. The problem, it seems to me, is the riders have demonstrated in the past that they do not see themselves as part of the game, where there are many interests to be attended to aside from their own. They make agreements and then do not stand by them. To me this is inexcusable. What about the trainers who prepared their horses for the day and transfered them to the detention barn hours earlier? These are the people doing the preparatory work so that these same riders can even have a chance to earn a living. What do they feel is their obligation to them?

Why is it that riders brave the cold at other venues while the riders in NY seem prepared to cancel at the drop of a hat? Did they not know that winter racing in NY meant riding in the cold? There is no doubt in my mind that ten years and more previously the riders rode under much more adverse conditions than they do today. They signed on for a difficult job, they were not forced to do so, yet have continuously acted in a selfish manner at any and every opportunity.

The line in the sand has been drawn by them and nobody else.

[PaceAdvantage]

I understand what you're saying, but I just think they're trying to find a softer way of saying, "If the guy might be dead by the time we get to North Shore, we'll have to go to Jamaica"

Yeah, and it is absolutely correct to get the quickest care available when the situation appears dire. However, it just doesn't make much sense if we are to believe that Jamaica Hospital is the pits.

[Tom]

Good post, TLG, a lot of people got hurt in the pocket yesterday.
When it comes to safe or unsafe tracks, I say no one buyt the jocks get to decide- it is their butts out there.
But this is nonsense.
How many people, on a daily basis go to Jamaica for health care?
Has 60 Minutes done an expose on the poor care they dish out?
CJ makes a good point, to - how does Jamaica compare to Grantsville, Penn?

Why is this just becoming an issue?
I suspect there is some mroe to this story that we are not hearing.
Did they start using Jamaica last week?

[Hammerhead]

After talking to a few folks I know who have like I have all my life here. 65 Years Much more then most of you youngsters Jamaica hospital is not the place to be. Unless you know for sure I wouldn't comment on what happened. Read the article in the New York Post published today. If you disagree send your kids and relatives to ride at Aquaduct, then pray they don't get hurt.
It's not the track. :ThmbDown:

[Tom]

I read the Post Article.......
"But the EMS supervisor at Aqueduct, 23-year veteran Tony Durante, said it is the policy of the Regional Emergency Services Council of New York to take anyone with possibly serious injuries to the nearest trauma center, which is Jamaica.

"[Arroyo] has an obvious head injury, and we don't know if it's internal," Durante said. "A jockey that thinks he's OK might not be. The bottom line is, it's better to err on the side of caution."

So I don't see anything here to change my mind.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02042007/sports/jocks_protest_cancels_cards_sports_ed_fountaine.ht m

[blind squirrel]

I read the Post Article.......
"But the EMS supervisor at Aqueduct, 23-year veteran Tony Durante, said it is the policy of the Regional Emergency Services Council of New York to take anyone with possibly serious injuries to the nearest trauma center, which is Jamaica.

"[Arroyo] has an obvious head injury, and we don't know if it's internal," Durante said. "A jockey that thinks he's OK might not be. The bottom line is, it's better to err on the side of caution."

So I don't see anything here to change my mind.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/02042007/sports/jocks_protest_cancels_cards_sports_ed_fountaine.ht m


yeah,now who do you think would be on the receiving end of a lawsuit
where a jock had a head injury and they took him to north shore--and
he didn't make it to the hospital?

[Suff]

Jockeys shouldn't be voting. They or the guild should appoint a steward who handles these things. Votes are bad.


Rider doesnt like his mounts anyway... I vote cancel.
Riders Hung over...........I vote cancel
Riders immature.........I vote cancel.

Problem may be that 1/2 the room is guild, and the other 1/2 is not?

Go to any construction site on a cold winter day and take a vote!

Votes are bad in these environment.

At the same time, there a 1000 5'5" 100lb guys on the backstretch. You want to keep putting Mike Luzzi on horses....this is what you get.

[The Hawk]

Isn't that completely silly though? Unless you're in a severe state of trauma and fear for your life???!!!!

"OK, I only have a bruised ankle....take me to the best care facility around, North Shore Hospital!!!"

The following day:

"My head is halfway caved in from being stepped on by a horse....take me to the worst facility around, Jamaica, PRONTO!!!"

Does this logic make sense to you?

Obviously, the latter scenario implies that you're in bad shape and may not make it to a hospital if it's too far away. But given a choice, in a non-life threatening situation, you'd want the best care possible, wouldn't you?

[Tom]

"But the EMS supervisor at Aqueduct, 23-year veteran Tony Durante, said it is the policy of the Regional Emergency Services Council of New York to take anyone with possibly serious injuries to the nearest trauma center, which is Jamaica."

So the jocks should get prefered treatment - anyone else goes to the nearest hospital, but jockeys get to decide where they watnt to go?

This aint a taxi service.

[ranchwest]

I missed this one. Pretty weak on the jocks part, and I'd love to see them banned. What kind of care you think they are going to get after a spill at Penn or CT?

Are you really comparing Aqueduct with Penn and CT? :lol:

The jockeys at Aqueduct (or at least most of them) have presumably worked their way up to that level from their Penn and CT days. Shouldn't they expect health care that at least matches if not greatly exceeds what they would receive at the smaller tracks?

[The Hawk]

Funny? How about the fact is wasn't in the article I read, and still isn't. MUST be a mistake on your part, assuming we read the same article.

What does Jerry Bailey have to do with this? He is "retured", no?

I'm sorry, I assumed you had access to the same article as the rest of us. I copied this out of the link that was provided below, from the NY Post. Maybe without my typo CJ will now understand it.

"We made an agreement with management back in 1992-93 that unless you're in a severe state of trauma and fear for your life, you'll be taken to North Shore," said retired Hall of Fame rider Jerry Bailey, who called from Florida after hearing of Santos' ordeal. "The jockeys always felt Jamaica Hospital was a disaster. They have a team of doctors set up at North Shore to treat them."

Bailey likely was involved in these negotiations back in the 90's, which is why he's relevant to the story.

[PaceAdvantage]

Obviously, the latter scenario implies that you're in bad shape and may not make it to a hospital if it's too far away. But given a choice, in a non-life threatening situation, you'd want the best care possible, wouldn't you?

Yes, and in a life threatening situation, I'd want the best care possible EVEN MORE! That's all I'm saying. Unfortunately, it appears that best care isn't also the closest care....

[PaceAdvantage]

"We made an agreement with management back in 1992-93 that unless you're in a severe state of trauma and fear for your life, you'll be taken to North Shore," said retired Hall of Fame rider Jerry Bailey, who called from Florida after hearing of Santos' ordeal. "The jockeys always felt Jamaica Hospital was a disaster. They have a team of doctors set up at North Shore to treat them."

How does an agreement made with management 15 years ago have any bearing on today's environment, considering the management in place 15 years ago is LONG GONE? What kind of agreement is it? Does it include provisions for a work stoppage should various terms of the agreement not be met by management?

And, as we've seen, management today has nothing to do with where a jockey gets taken by ambulance. This isn't an issue between jockeys and management, it's an issue between jockeys and EMS:

But the EMS supervisor at Aqueduct, 23-year veteran Tony Durante, said it is the policy of the Regional Emergency Services Council of New York to take anyone with possibly serious injuries to the nearest trauma center, which is Jamaica.

So I really don't understand what this "agreement" Bailey and the jockeys of 15 years ago made with the management of 15 years ago has to do with anything going on today....

This story gets more odd by the minute.

[cj]

I'm sorry, I assumed you had access to the same article as the rest of us. I copied this out of the link that was provided below, from the NY Post. Maybe without my typo CJ will now understand it.

I clearly stated my quote was from DRF, you even quoted that part.

I only pointed out the typo because you had it in a quote. I thought you had pasted it from your source, so I was wondering where it came from.

I don't think NYRA has any power over ambulance drivers, so I doubt the agreement you quote has any weight.

I'd ban them all. They could have finished the card and worked this out over the next three days.

[The Hawk]

I saw it in the Post itself, which I picked up Sunday, and re-typed it.

PA: The agreement may have been made 15 years ago, but if no other agreement was made since then it still stands, doesn't it? True, it's a new regime, so maybe since it's not something that's in writing they were unaware of it? I have no idea what types of contracts are in place, and what kind of provisions are in place. If we knew that it would help settle a lot of issues.

And, as we've seen, management today has nothing to do with where a jockey gets taken by ambulance. This isn't an issue between jockeys and management, it's an issue between jockeys and EMS:

You're probably right. But no matter WHO they have a beef with, they also have a right not to ride if they're not happy with potential emergency medical care. Perhaps it's not necessarily NYRA, but it's the SITUATION they're unhappy with.

CJ: Obviously, the agreement has some weight to some degree -- in the eyes of the riders -- or else we wouldn't have seen a "walkout". Since NYRA doesn't have control over the ambulance drivers maybe they can work WITH the EMTs and try to work something out on the jocks' behalf. Obviously, it's something that concerns the riders. You can say they should be banned all you want. What happens when the "scabs" ask for the same care? Ban them too!

[GMB@BP]

Look, the riders are indpendent contractors, if the track management and trainers are upset go get other jockeys. If the riders cant cut it at aqu then find some that can.

[ghostyapper]

Are you really comparing Aqueduct with Penn and CT? :lol:

The jockeys at Aqueduct (or at least most of them) have presumably worked their way up to that level from their Penn and CT days. Shouldn't they expect health care that at least matches if not greatly exceeds what they would receive at the smaller tracks?

Why should they get or expect better health care than jockeys at smaller tracks? Because they are better at their profession than jockey's at smaller tracks, this means their lives are worth more?

[GMB@BP]

Why should they get or expect better health care than jockeys at smaller tracks? Because they are better at their profession than jockey's at smaller tracks, this means their lives are worth more?

are you serious, or is this your way of thinking like a socialist society?

[ryesteve]

are you serious, or is this your way of thinking like a socialist society?
Why does it make someone a "socialist" if they believe that a segment of the population doesn't deserve to be treated as fodder? What does an economic system have to do with humanism? Are you going to tell us that Thomas Jefferson was a raving socialist when he wrote that "all men are created equal"?

[GMB@BP]

Why does it make someone a "socialist" if they believe that a segment of the population doesn't deserve to be treated as fodder? What does an economic system have to do with humanism? Are you going to tell us that Thomas Jefferson was a raving socialist when he wrote that "all men are created equal"?

i just dont agree with "why should they receive better treatement", ummm likely because they pay a higher premium for insurance, and who is to say these riders at smaller tracks get less service, do you know this as a fact as stated? No one has a right to health insurance, find that in the declaration, that is a service, that was my point.

[ryesteve]

who is to say these riders at smaller tracks get less service, do you know this as a fact as stated?
I wasn't arguing that they do or they don't. I was arguing your comment that someone who thinks they don't deserve less service is a "socialist"

[garyoz]

Why should they get or expect better health care than jockeys at smaller tracks? Because they are better at their profession than jockey's at smaller tracks, this means their lives are worth more?

Obviously you have never been in urban hospitals. Jockeys at the smaller tracks do get better medical care than patients at many urban hospitals. This deterioration of healthcare is something we all get to look forward do once it is nationalized.

As a second point, there have been many scandals about the notoriously corrupt EMS crews in NYC as the received kickbacks for steering patients to some hospitals. They cruise the city looking for opportunities and competition exists between crews and services. Selecting hospitals is nothing new. NYC is a big place--you need to understand the complexity of the situation.

Life is more complicated than you think. I see nothing wrong with a jockey telling an EMS crew that he/she wants to go to a specific hospital if it is within reason. If post time gets delayed waiting for the ambulance to return because of the extra 10 minute drive, then I understand there will be whining from the degenerate gamblers. But, I am almost certain there will be another amubulance waiting to take its place and postime will be hit.

[GMB@BP]

I wasn't arguing that they do or they don't. I was arguing your comment that someone who thinks they don't deserve less service is a "socialist"

fair enough, you were not the initial poster of the less service comment. I hate an entitlement society and any thinking on that level is absurd. Like I stated somewhere else, isnt this thing something that should have been set in place with the riders and nyra well in advance of this weekend. They dont have their shit together and we get the shaft, sooo irritating.

[bigmack]

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/story/494682p-416718c.html

According to attending EMTs, Arroyo wanted to be taken to North Shore University Hospital instead of Jamaica because of what he regarded as the poor care received at Jamaica by jockey Jose Santos, who was injured in a three-horse spill at Aqueduct on Thursday. According to Tony Durante, the EMS supervisor at Aqueduct, protocol established by the Regional Emergency Medical Services Council of New York City requires that patients be taken to the closest trauma unit, which in Aqueduct's case is Jamaica Hospital...


..."Jose broke his breastbone," Rita Santos said. "They didn't know that. That's why he was having so much trouble breathing."According to attending EMTs, Arroyo wanted to be taken to North Shore University Hospital instead of Jamaica because of what he regarded as the poor care received at Jamaica by jockey Jose Santos, who was injured in a three-horse spill at Aqueduct on Thursday. According to Tony Durante, the EMS supervisor at Aqueduct, protocol established by the Regional Emergency Medical Services Council of New York City requires that patients be taken to the closest trauma unit, which in Aqueduct's case is Jamaica Hospital...

...Rita Santos, wife of Jose, said her husband also broke the T-7 and T-8 vertebrae in his back and that pieces of the vertebrae were pressing on his spinal cord. "He is being fitted for a brace and there is no way to tell how long he will be in it," she said.

Rita Santos described a "lack of medical assistance" at Jamaica. Other jockeys have recounted similar experiences there and want the policy changed so that they will be taken to North Shore...

[ghostyapper]

fair enough, you were not the initial poster of the less service comment. I hate an entitlement society and any thinking on that level is absurd. Like I stated somewhere else, isnt this thing something that should have been set in place with the riders and nyra well in advance of this weekend. They dont have their shit together and we get the shaft, sooo irritating.

I'm not following here. On the one hand you appear to side with the jockey's at aqueduct who feel they are "entitled" to better health care because they make more money and ride at a major track, and then you say you "hate an entitlement society"

I'm not saying the jockey's don't have a legitimate beef(neither you nore I know this) but protesting it by not finishing the card, leaving the bettors, owners, trainers, and horses out to dry, was classless and they should be punished for it.

[Tom]

Why does it make someone a "socialist" if they believe that a segment of the population doesn't deserve to be treated as fodder? What does an economic system have to do with humanism? Are you going to tell us that Thomas Jefferson was a raving socialist when he wrote that "all men are created equal"?

Are you saying the jocks at Aqu are treated like fodder??????
Maybe I mis-read this, but they have an ambulance follow them around the track and if they are hurt, they go to a close by medincal facility, fully licensed and certifed by the medical profession, one that is open to the public 24-7 and somehow this qualifies as being treated like fodder?

Dang, what do those medical boards know, Santo doens't like it there.:lol:

[ryesteve]

Are you saying the jocks at Aqu are treated like fodder??????
Maybe I mis-read this
Yes, you did. Not only wasn't I saying that at all, treatment of jockeys was merely peripheral to the point.

[ryesteve]

I hate an entitlement society and any thinking on that level is absurd.
I'm still not clear how saying that the value of someone's life shouldn't be assessed on a sliding scale is the equivalent of "an entitlement society".

[bigmack]

Racing in the cold works in St Moritz. The Swiss are a heartier breed in sub 20 degree weather than jockeys with z's at the end of their names.

http://www.swiss-image.ch/slideshow/?event=whiteturf2007

[ranchwest]

Why should they get or expect better health care than jockeys at smaller tracks? Because they are better at their profession than jockey's at smaller tracks, this means their lives are worth more?

It isn't that they should necessarily get better health care. It's that they certainly shouldn't get less.

[Tom]

So everyone else who goes to Jamaica, day day, day out, is getting less health care?

[ranchwest]

So everyone else who goes to Jamaica, day day, day out, is getting less health care?

That seems to be the majority opinion.

[Tom]

Majority of who?
Santos?

How many other riders have been there in ambulances?
Arroya went there WITH NO PROBLELMS Saturday.

Majority?
Oh, ok - then we just tell EVERYONE that from now on, they get to decide. What happens when they decide they like a spa in Conn. even more?

After all, Santos is a medical authority. Now he is the majority.
If most of the jocks have not been there in an ambulance, how valid is thier
opinion?

[ranchwest]

Best wishes, Tom. With luck, you won't end up at Jamaica.

[The Hawk]

This from the DRF (Wednesday editions):

According to current and former riders, the jockeys have had an unwritten agreement with NYRA to be taken to North Shore following a spill except in cases where injuries could be life-threatening. Retired Hall of Fame jockey Jerry Bailey said he helped negotiate that deal in the early 1990's.

"It wasn't written," Bailey said Monday from south Florida. "We trusted the people we dealt with. What we wanted was the best care, the most efficient care - it was a no-brainer. We work in an industry where an ambulance follows us around. This is the most basic - basic - of requests. This is like asking a mother to feed her baby."

Bailey notes that at Belmont Park jockeys are taken to North Shore, though Long Island Jewish Hospital is a few miles closer. Following spills at Saratoga, jockeys are taken to Albany Medical Center as opposed to Saratoga Hospital, which is not a Level 1 trauma center. [snip]

[Ron]

So the hospital has always been North Shore until last week? What changed?

[classhandicapper]

I think ambulances area not taxis. You go to the nearest and they get back to work. They serve no one drivng around the city. You can always transfer to another hospital - at your own expense if you arenot pleased with the service.
But to take it out on thousands of people is just plain juvenile. I say BAN them from the track. Let them go find one in a better neighborhood.
Pinheads.

I don't know anything about the existing law or standard procedures in NY. All I can tell you is that if I was a jockey in NY and they told me that if I fell they were going to take my to Jamaica Hospital, I would have to think long and hard about moving to another circuit.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a week of cancelled races if it guaranteed better care for the jocks. Sometimes laws and procedures are flawed and need to be changed.

[the little guy]

I don't know anything about the existing law or standard procedures in NY. All I can tell you is that if I was a jockey in NY and they told me that if I fell they were going to take my to Jamaica Hospital, I would have to think long and hard about moving to another circuit.

Personally, I wouldn't mind a week of cancelled races if it guaranteed better care for the jocks. Sometimes laws and procedures are flawed and need to be changed.


I encourage them to move.

What are you thinking....Charles Town or Mountaineer? West Virginia Bred showcase day has been growing by leaps and bounds every year.

I have a feeling there are plenty of guys at Beulah that woluld love to come to NY and they can all ride at least as well as ( Un )Abel Castellano.

[cj]

At some point we can only assume the jocks will request a takeout increase to offset the longer ambulance drives. It is of course obvious that they should not have to any extra costs.

[classhandicapper]

I thought I would reprint my earlier post as it seems to be being ignored.

Do the people defending the jockeys feel that agreeing to ride under the circumstances that existed and then reneging on that decision, all in a matter of hours, is acceptable behavoir?

I don't.

I think they should have finished out the day and honored any other agreements they had to ride. Then if they really hate Jamaica hospital they should have refused to ride unless they were satisfied that the procedure would be changed. If there is a law involved, they should have insisted that NYRA do whatever it can to have it modified.

If NYRA won't/can't make the changes and others riders are willing to fill the gap, so be it. They are out of a job or must move to another circuit.

Personally, I don't get this debate at ALL.

Peoples lives are involved and you guys are more worried about getting bets down.

[cj]

Peoples lives are involved and you guys are more worried about getting bets down.

I think you are going a bit far here. I don't recall hearing about anyone dying because they had to go to Jamaica.

Jocks are independent contractors. If Jose Santos didn't like where he was taken, why not call a cab and head to North Shore? If his injury was truly serious, he should have of course been taken to the nearest place, which he was. If it wasn't that serious, does it really matter where he was taken? He can go anywhere he chooses once the ambo drops him off.

[classhandicapper]

I encourage them to move.

What are you thinking....Charles Town or Mountaineer? West Virginia Bred showcase day has been growing by leaps and bounds every year.

I have a feeling there are plenty of guys at Beulah that woluld love to come to NY and they can all ride at least as well as ( Un )Abel Castellano.

That's fine. It's a free market. If the NY jocks feel their lives are in greater danger by going to Jamaica they have a right to express that and refuse to ride in NY unless the procedures are changed. It might cost them their jobs, but so be it. The only mistake they made was in not honoring their commitments to ride on Saturday and Sunday.

On the flip side, I think anyone that is even slightly rational will agree that if Jamaica is demonstrably poor relative to the alternatives, there is a problem here that needs to be addressed.

[classhandicapper]

I think you are going a bit far here. I don't recall hearing about anyone dying because they had to go to Jamaica.

The idea is to avoid a death or paralysis etc... by changing the policy BEFORE inferior care causes an event like that.

I am not saying it was right for the jocks to stop riding Saturday when they already had commitments, but I know that when I think about healthcare, where I am going to have procedures done, which doctor I am going to go to etc.... I ALWAYS and without exception try to go to the best doctor possible. I certainly avoid poor hospitals and incompetent doctors. As a resident of Queens, I can tell you that Jamaica does not have a good reputation (even though I have no personal experience there).

Why do people have a problem with the jockeys feeling similarly when they are convinced they are getting poor care at Jamaica and their job poses greater risks than for the average person?

The only debate should be whether there should be some kind of penalty for refusing to ride after already having commitments. I can certainly understand someone thinking yes, but personally, I think they had to do something big because I don't see any other way to get this hospital issue addressed.

[the little guy]

That's fine. It's a free market. If the NY jocks feel their lives are in greater danger by going to Jamaica they have a right to express that and refuse to ride in NY unless the procedures are changed. It might cost them their jobs, but so be it. The only mistake they made was in not honoring their commitments to ride on Saturday and Sunday.

On the flip side, I think anyone that is even slightly rational will agree that if Jamaica is demonstrably poor relative to the alternatives, there is a problem here that needs to be addressed.


Jamaica Hospital is the hospital used by the area's Fire Department ( not sure about the police ).

Of course, those people are not NEAR the heroes that jockeys are.

[classhandicapper]

Jamaica Hospital is the hospital used by the area's Fire Department ( not sure about the police ).

Of course, those people are not NEAR the heroes that jockeys are.

Does that mean Jamaica hospital is good or that some of NY's best and finest are getting crap care also?

[the little guy]

Does that mean Jamaica hospital is good or that some of NY's best and finest are getting crap care also?

I don't know.....what would be your guess?

[classhandicapper]

I don't know.....what would be your guess?

I live in Queens. Personally, I wouldn't go to Jamaica hospital for a splinter, let alone spine or head problems. I think people should at least understand and sympathize with the jock's position even if you think their actions on Saturday were wrong.

[the little guy]

I live in Queens. Personally, I wouldn't go to Jamaica hospital for a splinter, let alone spine or head problems. I think people should at least understand and sympathize with the jock's position even if you think their actions on Saturday were wrong.


I believe people do. However, their actions Saturday were so unbelievably inexcusable that mustering up sympathy for their " position " is not easy.

I believe the riders need to get some perspective and realize they are part of something and NOT the whole show.

[classhandicapper]

I believe people do. However, their actions Saturday were so unbelievably inexcusable that mustering up sympathy for their " position " is not easy.

I believe the riders need to get some perspective and realize they are part of something and NOT the whole show.

Understood. Our views are closer than I thought (and probably you thought).

[aaron]

According to an article in the DRF, Jerry Bailey stated that the jockeys had an agreement that they were supposed to be taken to North Shore Hospital and not Jamaica.He said this was a verbal agreement.The article is on the DRF's website.

[The Hawk]

I think you are going a bit far here. I don't recall hearing about anyone dying because they had to go to Jamaica.

Jocks are independent contractors. If Jose Santos didn't like where he was taken, why not call a cab and head to North Shore? If his injury was truly serious, he should have of course been taken to the nearest place, which he was. If it wasn't that serious, does it really matter where he was taken? He can go anywhere he chooses once the ambo drops him off.

Yes, with severe spinal cord damage and a broken sternum, he should have gone out and hailed a cab. Brilliant. Maybe he should have walked there.

[cj]

Yes, with severe spinal cord damage and a broken sternum, he should have gone out and hailed a cab. Brilliant. Maybe he should have walked there.

This is far from what I said. Severe spinal cord damage is serious I would think.

[JPinMaryland]

Yes, but I think what the guy is saying is that if you are real banged up you may not be in position to make a choice about where to go. For instance if you are unconscious there is no way you can decide you want to go to North Shore.

I guess that is the entire reason the jockeys had determined beforehand where they would go, in many cases, they simply can't wait for an injury and then decide where to go.

[Tom]

Jamaica Hospital is the hospital used by the area's Fire Department ( not sure about the police ).

Of course, those people are not NEAR the heroes that jockeys are.

I love it when you get into discussions! :jump:

[Zaf]

Are they running on Wednesday ?

Z

[Pace Cap'n]

Yes. (http://www.drf.com/news/article/82363.html)

[Zaf]

Thanks :)

Z

[JustRalph]

Jamaica Hospital is the hospital used by the area's Fire Department ( not sure about the police ).

Of course, those people are not NEAR the heroes that jockeys are.

in what way do you mean? They take citizens there, or do they themselves prefer treatment there? just wondering..........

[NY BRED]

reading these postings on jockeys closing the track down last
saturday because of current requirments going to Jamaica hospital
rather than the Jockey's choice is bizarre.

in an effort summarize the real issues facing NY winter racing,it
becomes apparent that:

jockeys can shut down racing and will when they feel their rights to
obtain proper care is violated.

Horses,runnning on various drugs which enhance their performance beyond their
actual capabilities can't strike or stop the racing card unless they collapse
on the track and injure themselves and or their jockeys, or God help
us, one or more of the participants dies.

let the show go on, fire the jockeys, get new "gladiators" in so we can continue to watch five or six horse fields paying 11.00 exactas is not
what makes this game interesting to bet or observe to regular
or new fans.

Trainers, sometimes vocal about illegal tactics by their competitors
are forced to play the game or face losing their dwindling supply of owners
flocking to the winning winter trainers who somehow never make it
to the classics (excepting Mr. Dutrow).


The top riders on NY racing, riding for the stables owning the cream
of the crop ride out of town, and competent riders throughout the country
don't swoop into NY to compete with this void of talent.

An inept management,filing for bankruptcy, and politicians more concerned
about issues other than racing have stalled the installation of vlts which
might help to increase purses and allow for higher class horses to stay in NY
rahter than spend the winter in Fla.

Maybe I am the minority, but it seems winter racing at NY will
end in the next few years unless positive moves are taken to correct these
conditions

[aaron]

It seems to me all this could have been avoided if management had kept its word. If prior to the incidents of last week jockeys were taken to North Shore Hospital, then why was there a change in procedure ?

[PaceAdvantage]

It seems to me all this could have been avoided if management had kept its word. If prior to the incidents of last week jockeys were taken to North Shore Hospital, then why was there a change in procedure ?

Where did you read that management has the ability to control where the EMS driver takes the jockey? In the recent articles posted, it contained a quote that clearly stated that the DRIVER of the ambulance (an EMS worker) CAN determine where the jockey gets taken based on the perceived danger of the injury (ie. head injuries go to Jamaica, as was the case with Arroyo).

Currently, the EMS worker has the last say as to where the jockey goes....based on law, not some unwritten agreement made between jockeys and management of 15 years ago.

[aaron]

PA-
Your response is there really was no agreement and Jerry Bailey is lying about the unwritten agrement.

[the little guy]

Jerry Bailey has an agenda and it is sort of ridiculous he is even being discussed here without " full disclosure "...so to speak.

Jerry Bailey has a significant personal interest in Excelsior Racing getting the franchise to run racing in New York State. He is not speaking as a former jockey simply helping out his bretheren, he is speaking as someone who has a vested interest in discrediting NYRA, and his comments should be viewed as such.

Personally I find it amusing that he has this sudden interest in helping others. Yeah right.

[aaron]

I don't know Jerry Bailey and I certainly wouldn't disagree that he has an agenda. The question I would like answered "Was a verbal agreement in place ?"
If that question is answered,then we will have a basis to continue.I'm sure other jockeys were aware of any agreement.Why not ask them ?

[PaceAdvantage]

PA-
Your response is there really was no agreement and Jerry Bailey is lying about the unwritten agrement.

Huh? There was an unwritten agreement made with management 15 years ago. The management in place 15 years ago no longer exists at NYRA, and an unwritten agreement isn't all that iron-clad, especially one made with management that no longer exists.

I never said there was no agreement, and I never said or implied Bailey is lying.

Can you show me something which says NYRA MANAGEMENT can dictate where a jockey with a head injury is taken by ambulance? You can't, because as it now stands, EMS decides where to take jockeys with injuries they perceive to be potential life threatening emergencies.

I'm trying to figure out how this 15-year-old agreement has any "teeth" when it comes to telling EMS where to go!?!? NYRA does not run EMS and I'm sure EMS is not going to listen to NYRA management...why should they? EMS has to follow their rules and the rule is if the EMS tech thinks the injured party needs immediate medical attention, he or she is supposed to take the person to the nearest trauma center. Otherwise, if the person dies, who do you think is going to get sued for not going to the nearest hospital?

[aaron]

PA
I understand your point,but there must have been some type of understanding or else this situation would have happened sooner.I am not blaming NYRA,but someone must have been aware of the agreement.I realize that for whatever reasons certain people give NYRA a pass no matter what.In this case I don't know who is right,but after the 1st accident last week this should have been settled.I bet NYRA races almost every day and I just don't think its that big a deal that they had to cancel a few races or even a few days in the interest of safety for the jockey's.

[ezrabrooks]

Jamaica, North Shore, Kokomo... I don't know the difference. But, aren't the EMS services provided during races contracted, and paid for, by the Track? If so, it doesn't seem much of a stretch for the contractor, on behalf of the jocks, to dictate where a injured person is taken. This subject has now been officially beat to death, so no worry about where it is taken.

Ez

[PaceAdvantage]

Perhaps if Mr. Bailey would tell us the terms of this mystical agreement, we'd be more clued into just what was expected of NYRA management.

NYRA has their own ambulances, but who do the EMS people work for? Are they employed by NYRA? Considering the situation, I would have to think not, or else NYRA CAN dictate where the seriously injured jockey is taken....

Some basic facts are needed to clear up some confusion.

[The Hawk]

From the Friday DRF...

Two sides resolve hospital dispute
By DAVID GRENING
OZONE PARK, N.Y. - Though there is no official change in policy, there at least appears to be a meeting of the minds between New York Racing Association management and the jockeys regarding hospital care following ontrack spills.

Following the cancellation of most of last weekend's racing at Aqueduct due to this issue, officials from NYRA met with several jockeys on Tuesday. The result was a reinforcement of a policy that apparently was set in 1992: Riders would be taken to North Shore University Hospital in Manhasset - about 25 minutes from Aqueduct - unless the injury was deemed to be life-threatening. In that case, riders would be taken to nearby Jamaica Hospital. The on-site emergency medical technicians would be responsible for determining what would be considered a life-threatening injury.

That 1992 agreement wasn't in writing. Luzzi said he expects NYRA management to put something in writing soon.
[snip]

Seems to me little has changed: EMS still determines the severity of the injury, and thus where the jock is ultimately taken. The only difference is they're going to make it official that North Shore is the place they want to go unless it's absolutely necessary to go to Jamaica.

[PaceAdvantage]

Seems to me little has changed: EMS still determines the severity of the injury, and thus where the jock is ultimately taken.

Yup. Don't see where anything has changed. A bizarre little sideshow continues.

[NY BRED]

n.s. : services one of the most affluent communities of long island
and/or the U.S.


JAMIACA :services a predominately lower middle class/lower class community.


Jose Santos: moved to North Shore based upon improper medical
treatment which, if it were not for his pain and request to be moved
might have been left in an even more serious medical condition.


so, the remaining jockeys, fearing the same potential if injured simply
want that choice in the event of a serious or non life threatening
event, which anyone on this board(I presume) would also demand.


What's so difficult to understand, and was the aqueduct card on Saturday,
or any other winter day filled with great winter racing ?


Unless of course you feel that about 2,000 fans visiting the track that day are p/o and will never return

[aaron]

If EMS determines the severity of the injury,then according to everything written on this board in their defense,EMS in both cases was incorrect in their determination causing this whole fiasco.
In Saturday's incident especially its hard to believe that the injuries were life threatening,if that was not the case,why was Arroyo taken to Jamaica hospital,and why did NYRA not intervene on the jockey's behalf ?

[PaceAdvantage]

In Saturday's incident especially its hard to believe that the injuries were life threatening,if that was not the case,why was Arroyo taken to Jamaica hospital,and why did NYRA not intervene on the jockey's behalf ?

Arroyo had a head injury, which outwardly did not seem severe. However, EMS considers that ANY head injury can go from benign looking to life-threatening in a moments notice, so they took no chances.

[aaron]

PA-
Very good answer.I can't argue with professionals making the call.
Is there a doctor on call at the track ? It seems to me,that there should always be a physcian on call.Just my opinion.

[classhandicapper]

To me, several things are so obvious they shouldn't even be part of the discussion.

1. Every person I have ever met in my entire life would prefer to go to the best hospital/doctor possible for their healthcare.

2. Every person I have ever met with a functioning brain that lives in the Queens/L.I. NY area would prefer to go to North Shore or L.I.J. Hospital instead of Jamaica.

3. The jockeys are very unhappy being taken to Jamaica Hospital in some circumstances (and for good reason)

4. Something had to change or be agreed upon that satisfied the jockeys regarding how these decisions are made. That's the way it works in the real world. You don't like your salary or benefits you tell your company you are going to walk if things don't change and the company decides whether they can afford to lose you. If a deal wasn't possible, the unhappy jockeys should have just packed their bags and rode somewhere else where they felt safer. NYRA would then take whatever heat came from that.

5. The health of the jockeys is dramatically more important than whether a bunch of degenerate gamblers get some bets down.

Really, the only debate is whether walking out was the correct approach to take in order to get a serious discussion of this problem under way.

[garyoz]

Arroyo had a head injury, which outwardly did not seem severe. However, EMS considers that ANY head injury can go from benign looking to life-threatening in a moments notice, so they took no chances.


All the more reason not to go to Jamaica. You need the correct diagnosis. Just ask Jose Santos.