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loopeepop
01-17-2007, 10:32 PM
I am looking for someone to develop a simple program to track trainers and traner patterns. I would like to be able to update it by downloading the data. Is this possible?

bigmack
01-17-2007, 10:36 PM
If you'd like it written on MS products using the browser Vista - Check with a member here by the name of: Tom

He can help you out.

Dick Schmidt
01-17-2007, 10:44 PM
bigmack, you should be ashamed of yourself. Funny but very cruel. Most of the really good jokes are.

Loop,

You can save yourself a lot of trouble if you download your data from HDW. They already include extensive trainer and jockey data. Since many trainers have stables at multiple tracks, it is easy to miss some stuff. Let someone with the largest racing database around do it for you.

Dick

P.S. don't contact Tom about anything to do with Microsoft products!

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

loopeepop
01-18-2007, 12:15 AM
I am looking for someone who can build a program that I can expand without the high cost. I use turfday, it is excellent. But I want to traks long shot trainers over a period of time. I don't want to continue paying for these high pric servicess each month, I could use this money to bet. I am serious. I am willing to pay a good software developer to develop a program on trainers.

Billythekid
01-18-2007, 12:30 AM
try this
beatthepublic.com

I know Joe Zambuto use to do exactly what you are looking for.

wes
01-18-2007, 06:29 AM
Try Equisim 5.0 it may already track what you are wanting from the software.
It will use Bris or TSN 50 cents files.

wes

traynor
01-19-2007, 01:22 AM
I am looking for someone who can build a program that I can expand without the high cost. I use turfday, it is excellent. But I want to traks long shot trainers over a period of time. I don't want to continue paying for these high pric servicess each month, I could use this money to bet. I am serious. I am willing to pay a good software developer to develop a program on trainers.

If you know what you want, write it down, and take it to the computer science or computer information systems department of your local college or university. There are any number of undergraduate and graduate students who are skilled designers and programmers, and would jump at the opportunity to make a few dollars on the side.

Most colleges and universities are enthusiastic about finding contract work for their CSc or CIS majors, and will do everything they can to help you. Prices are cheap, by programmer standards. If you know what you want, the programmer doesn't need to be a handicapper, or even know which end of the horse is supposed to cross the finish line first. You have a data manipulation project, not a handicapping project.

You might even consider having it programmed in Excel or Access, if you are only tracking trainers.
Good Luck

Suff
01-19-2007, 01:56 AM
Folks please remember that the DRF board recently closed and the misfits need a new playground.


I play horses on the East Coast. Upper east coast. From a mile away.

K9Pup
01-19-2007, 08:15 AM
I am looking for someone to develop a simple program to track trainers and traner patterns. I would like to be able to update it by downloading the data. Is this possible?

Of course it is POSSIBLE. But the problem you will have is finding someone to do it for the amount of money you are willing to pay. Getting a "custom" application written for ONE user can be expensive. Even "simple" programs take a lot of time. And then you will want it to be "easily modified" so you can make future changes yourself.

BIG49010
01-19-2007, 09:16 AM
I would check your local shoppers guide, or newspaper for someone who works with whatever software you choose. I had a guy setup my first program in Paradox 20 years ago, and then I learned from his programing and now I have everything but the kitchen sink programed. The only problem I have, "Paradox for dos" is over 20 years old, but it continues to work in well in Windows. Plan to spend a great deal of time to get started.

traynor
01-19-2007, 04:23 PM
Of course it is POSSIBLE. But the problem you will have is finding someone to do it for the amount of money you are willing to pay. Getting a "custom" application written for ONE user can be expensive. Even "simple" programs take a lot of time. And then you will want it to be "easily modified" so you can make future changes yourself.

I disagree. Most Visual Basic developers could crank out the basic functionality in a day. If not, they shouldn't call themselves developers. Most business or CIS students are required to learn VB or C++ for their majors, and anyone who thinks such an application is "complex" or "difficult" is probably writing in BASIC or Java.

If you are not overly enthralled with an attractive "Windows-like" interface, put a request on any of the Python or PHP developer forums. ("rentacoder" is one such). The type of application you describe, including database connectivity and parsing data files, is considered trivial in most modern languages. Meaning "really cheap and easy to code."
Good Luck

K9Pup
01-19-2007, 05:49 PM
I disagree. Most Visual Basic developers could crank out the basic functionality in a day. If not, they shouldn't call themselves developers.
Good Luck

No way.

I am assuming that import routines would have to be written to get the data from some foreign source. That alone usually takes some time.

But let's say it COULD be done in one day. What is a good programmer's time worth? $75? $100/hour??? Even if a $100/hr programmer could do it in 4 hours that would still be $400. Do you think that he is willing to spend that amount on it?

Hell would YOU do it for $400?????

BIG49010
01-19-2007, 10:02 PM
I agree, it takes in real time hundreds of hour if he want trainer stats, in 60 or 70 catagories. That would get you to a point where the results, are in a file by trainer. The next challege is to get them out of that file, and into todays race card where they apply, add a couple of hundred more hours.

I was quoted $5,000 twenty years ago to do what I wanted done, I did it myself, but it took 4-5 years to get it perfect. I still make changes and improvements all the time, so if you have someone do the programing make sure you have the code.

The great thing about it is, once it's done, you can handicap a race in 4-5 minutes.

traynor
01-20-2007, 02:57 AM
No way.

I am assuming that import routines would have to be written to get the data from some foreign source. That alone usually takes some time.

But let's say it COULD be done in one day. What is a good programmer's time worth? $75? $100/hour??? Even if a $100/hr programmer could do it in 4 hours that would still be $400. Do you think that he is willing to spend that amount on it?

Hell would YOU do it for $400?????

Data files are in a long line. You get specs that define what each segment of that line contains. You set up a file stream (like connecting a hose). As the data is read, it is parsed; items 97, 234, and 468 are components of whatever. If you have the format used by the vendor, writing the code to parse and store the data in secondary files is trivial. So is coding access and manipulation of the data.

The days of programmers getting paid $100 an hour were before Bangalore. You can hire skilled programmers through Kelly Services, Manpower, and similar contractors for salaries ranging from $20 to $35 (plus padding), depending on the complexity of the project.

CIS or CSc students do buckets of work for $15 an hour, $20 if they are graduate students.

Poke around on some of the forums and bulletin boards for programmers. Again, the whole issue revolves around whether or not you know what you want. If you do, it is as easy to find competent programmers who can handle the coding fairly easily.

What you need are RAD programmers (for Rapid Application Development). Python and PHP programmers are usually the fastest (and cheapest), but there are a LOT of VB programmers looking for pick-up jobs.
Good Luck

PaceAdvantage
01-20-2007, 05:04 AM
Folks please remember that the DRF board recently closed and the misfits need a new playground.


I play horses on the East Coast. Upper east coast. From a mile away.


Nahhh...not this one....different animal altogether, but similar motive.

K9Pup
01-20-2007, 08:28 AM
Data files are in a long line. You get specs that define what each segment of that line contains. You set up a file stream (like connecting a hose). As the data is read, it is parsed; items 97, 234, and 468 are components of whatever. If you have the format used by the vendor, writing the code to parse and store the data in secondary files is trivial. So is coding access and manipulation of the data.



Well heck if it is so easy why don't you take a couple of hours and write it for him!!

Dave Schwartz
01-20-2007, 10:30 AM
Well heck if it is so easy why don't you take a couple of hours and write it for him!!

Seriously...

traynor
01-20-2007, 01:48 PM
Well heck if it is so easy why don't you take a couple of hours and write it for him!!

Because I am not a CIS student or unemployed VB, Python, or PHP programmer.
Try RentaCoder or similar sites. If you can give explicit instructions about what you want, the coding part is cheap.

Programming has changed radically in the last four or five years. The slow, ponderous Java and C++ coders are finding it increasingly difficult to find work, and the quickie, one-off RAD prototypers using more efficient development languages are doing very well.

That makes it fairly easy to have simple applications coded.
Good Luck

K9Pup
01-20-2007, 01:57 PM
Because I am not a CIS student or unemployed VB, Python, or PHP programmer.

O I C


Try RentaCoder or similar sites. If you can give explicit instructions about what you want, the coding part is cheap.


EXPLICIT instructions is the key word here. Usually that doesn't happen. I'm sorry but you are much like all the other programmer analysts for the last 30 years. Project estimates are usually 50-100% too small. Sure the new languages speed up the process, but that just causes the estimators to decrease their estimates.


Programming has changed radically in the last four or five years. The slow, ponderous Java and C++ coders are finding it increasingly difficult to find work, and the quickie, one-off RAD prototypers using more efficient development languages are doing very well.

That makes it fairly easy to have simple applications coded.
Good Luck

I think if you take a rentacoder that has NO knowledge of handicapping then you will spend more "than a few hours" just explaining what you want.

Just my opinion.

Handiman
01-20-2007, 06:42 PM
As a hobbyist programmer, it's not just sit down and knock out some code and whoopee...it's done. Depending on the form the program takes and it's complexities, many hours can be put into the coding. Then there is the time to debug. That can be immense if you coded while being tired. Computer languages don't care if you're close or off just a little bit. Type in some exhaustive code and then refer to it later in the program, and if one section is small case and you happened to type previously one letter in upper case, then it takes time to find what the problem is and where it's located.

Then coding the display and the print display takes some time also. So to say it's just a wham bam thank you mam proposal...it just ain't so!

Handi :bang:

traynor
01-20-2007, 07:59 PM
O I C

EXPLICIT instructions is the key word here. Usually that doesn't happen. I'm sorry but you are much like all the other programmer analysts for the last 30 years. Project estimates are usually 50-100% too small. Sure the new languages speed up the process, but that just causes the estimators to decrease their estimates.

I think if you take a rentacoder that has NO knowledge of handicapping then you will spend more "than a few hours" just explaining what you want.

Just my opinion.

"Explicit instructions" is the key phrase. If a user has no real idea what he or she wants, or what kind of ouput is needed, it is impossible for the programmer to be a mind reader. Hence there could be a great deal of "project creep."

If, however, the user knows exactly what he or she wants, the actual coding is relatively trivial in RAD languages. Handicapping knowledge is irrelevant; all that matters is that the instructions about what is desired can be explicitly stated. If not, the issue is one of indecisiveness on the part of the user, not of programming skill (or cost).
Good Luck

traynor
01-20-2007, 08:17 PM
As a hobbyist programmer, it's not just sit down and knock out some code and whoopee...it's done. Depending on the form the program takes and it's complexities, many hours can be put into the coding. Then there is the time to debug. That can be immense if you coded while being tired. Computer languages don't care if you're close or off just a little bit. Type in some exhaustive code and then refer to it later in the program, and if one section is small case and you happened to type previously one letter in upper case, then it takes time to find what the problem is and where it's located.

Then coding the display and the print display takes some time also. So to say it's just a wham bam thank you mam proposal...it just ain't so!

Handi :bang:

The problem with hobby handicappers is that they tend to start coding first, then decide later what the app should do. Bells and whistles are added like accessories duct-taped to a vehicle.

Most modern programmers have abandoned the old-time "waterfall" model, and code in bite-size chunks, usually after designing a test case for the chunk. "Exhaustive code" should never be used; the code should be broken apart into minimalist functions and subroutines, with scope strictly limited, in modules with built-in test cases.

That is not as complex as it may seem. Modern languages have fairly competent syntax monitors, and errors show up immediately--rather than after hours or days of spaghetti code. Example; create a function to do a specific task. Step one in the newly created function is an exception handler; the local languages equivalent of "Try ... Catch ... Finally ..."

All executable code goes in the Try block, exception handlers go in the Catch block, and "housekeeping" (closing files, etc.) goes in the Finally block. Programmers don't write "exhaustive code" anymore, unless they are using way outdated techniques and procedures. That makes debugging a relatively minor chore (contrary to what programmers in your employ might want you to believe). If the app is properly designed (from those explicit instructions provided before the first line of code is written), errors are easy to isolate, quick to fix, and life goes on.

Admittedly, a level of skill is required in the initial "design" stage. That can be half an hour spent creating outlines for subs and functions on 3 x 5 index cards. For the type of application described, both the planning and coding should be relatively simple. Modern programming languages rely heavily on imported modules with "bullet-proof code" that has been designed, fine-tuned, and debugged by some of the best developers in the world. All part of modern languages, all part of modern programming techniques.
Good Luck

Dave Schwartz
01-20-2007, 10:15 PM
Modern programming languages rely heavily on imported modules with "bullet-proof code" that has been designed, fine-tuned, and debugged by some of the best developers in the world. All part of modern languages, all part of modern programming techniques.

Traynor,

IMHO, as a far-from-amateur/hobbyist programmer myself, I find your advice to find a rank amateur (such as a college student) and have him write a multi-hundred hour project just a terrible idea.

And the thought that such a project is just 20 hours or so is nuts. Heck... you try creating a data dictionary of one of those BRIS imports.. you might spend 5 or 6 hours just creating a data dictionary with the 900 or so fields in it!

Permit me to tell you what will happen if he does try to hire a "college guy:"

First, he will get a great deal... the guy will say, "I can do that for just $500" or "I can do that in about 20 hours at $25 per hour." Then, once the project has hit about triple the amount budgeted, the guy will have finals to worry about or his new girlfriend will begin taking up his time. For whatever reason suddenly the contractee will get no response to the repeated messages he leaves for the contractor.

Ultimately, he will have to start all over with a new guy. And his money will be gone.


Cheap programming rarely works out. It's like getting your haircut at the barber college. Your hair will grow back, but your money won't.

How do you suppose I know this?



So, what is the solution? You find someone who has been doing it awhile with an existing piece of software that can integrate what you want to do into what they have already done.

We do that for many of our professional-level clients but I am not talking about me. My plate is pretty full right now. But isn't there a guy... Matt somebody... that does this?

I have no idea if the guy is any good but he has sure been around awhile.

That would be my advice.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

traynor
01-20-2007, 11:40 PM
Traynor,
Permit me to tell you what will happen if he does try to hire a "college guy:"

First, he will get a great deal... the guy will say, "I can do that for just $500" or "I can do that in about 20 hours at $25 per hour." Then, once the project has hit about triple the amount budgeted, the guy will have finals to worry about or his new girlfriend will begin taking up his time. For whatever reason suddenly the contractee will get no response to the repeated messages he leaves for the contractor.
Dave Schwartz

I think you must have had some bad experiences with programmers (not a rarity).

I do a lot of project management, both organizing and managing teams (many virtual, scattered from St Pete (not the Florida one) to Bangalore). In blunt terms, a contract is a contract; if I have a set of specs (that "explicit instruction" thing), and I put it out for bids, I don't intend to adopt the contractor. The contractor delivers, on time, on budget, according to specs, or no money ever changes hands.

A lot of programmers, especially Java and C++ programmers, don't like the idea that they will not be coddled, cuddled, and fed pizza for months on end, then allowed to walk away with large sums of cash, leaving behind masses of indecipherable spaghetti code as their output. Too bleeping bad. That is why the lion's share of US coding goes to Bangalore.

I apologize if my expectations seem too high, or atypical. Having hired numerous undergrads and grads over the years, I have had a lot of really good experiences with that arrangement.

However, I am a contractor. That means that if I give someone a project that I think should take a week of coding, and they bring it back complete next morning, I suffer not one twinge when I write his or her check. I pay for the work, not the time involved. If it meets the specs, I don't care if the whole CSc department worked on it to get it done so fast. My only interest, as a contractor, is the end result, not how that result is accomplished.

That carries a responsibilty; absolutely, positively no project creep. If I can't define precisely what I want up front, I am a long way from the hiring stage. That is exactly the same, whether it is a college student, or a senior programmer. I don't expect mind readers, and I don't expect creative coding.

About that, I should probably apologize, because I may not have made it clear. The project definition stage is critical; explicit instructions must be available about what goes in, what comes out, and what kind of interface is desired. If not, there are likely to be problems.

My point is that CSc and CIS majors want work and they want experience. A few minutes spent with an instructor or Student Services is likely to result in some very high quality programming work for a modest amount of money.
Good Luck

Bala
01-21-2007, 12:48 AM
......Matt somebody.... Matt Thomas
http://www.webdynamicscorp.com/smert/programming.htm

I have used him in the past. High quality work.








________________________________________________
“Work is the refuge of people who have nothing better to do” ~ Oscar Wilde

“Work spares us from three evils: boredom, vice, and need” ~ Voltaire

“One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important.” ~ Bertrand Russell

singunner
01-21-2007, 01:40 AM
Traynor,

The guy didn't even spell "Software" correctly for the thread title. I don't know that he's gonna be able to properly get across what his program is supposed to do to his programmer. He just may need a pro.

Handiman
01-21-2007, 04:59 AM
First of all, Do not interpret "Hobbyist Programmer" to mean, I just found a computer and decided to see if I could make the screen change colors. I have been coding for over 10 years now. I do not program for a living. Which makes me a hobbyist. I am also self taught. But that doesn't mean I just fell off a turnip truck, on my way into the big city.

There are several people around the country that are using programs I have written for them. And everyone of them has been very satisfied with my work product. I didn't speak to the basics of program design and flow charts and modularity, as I didn't think this audience was interested in that level of discussion.

But to think that board members here or anywhere else can or are inclined to pop on the phone and call the local programmers club or whatever, is a bit polyannish. Most people that I have encountered, don't have a set design they want done, nor can they provide an explicit set of instructions. Most often, they have a vague idea of what they want. An Idea or notion of a system they would lke to try, and unfortunately, they aren't equipped to write the programs on their own.

Plus, even spending a couple of hundred dollars on a program on an untried system or hunch of what might work, is usually beyond the customers desires. On the other hand, I don't even come close to turning out programs on par with Dave S. But that's not what most people want anyway. If they did, they would just by Dave's program. They most often want a product that originated in their head. Or from some conversation they had with friends, or even, going as far as wanting to turn a paper and pencil method they bought into a computer program.

Regardless, there are people out there that can accomplish the task needed. But It will take a little effort to find them. It mainly depends on the expectations and desires of the person wanting the program done.

Respectfully,
Handi

hcap
01-21-2007, 07:53 AM
LoopeepopTrainer Software
I am looking for someone who can build a program that I can expand without the high cost. I use turfday, it is excellent. But I want to traks long shot trainers over a period of time. I don't want to continue paying for these high pric servicess each month, I could use this money to bet. I am serious. I am willing to pay a good software developer to develop a program on trainers.I did email you. I am willing to do this.


Originally Posted by Handi
Most people that I have encountered, don't have a set design they want done, nor can they provide an explicit set of instructions. Most often, they have a vague idea of what they want. An Idea or notion of a system they would lke to try, and unfortunately, they aren't equipped to write the programs on their own.I pretty much agree with Handi. I also have people using my Excel programs. Most of the time I've found the wish list of what people want is poorly defined. I spend time questioning them from a handicapping point of view. I doubt most non-handicapping programmers would have the same perspective. If someone wants to test a spot play for instance, often the rules are not clear and although a non-handicapping programmer might press and finally get a defined set of "rules", he may miss the larger picture of what the handicapper really wants to really do.

Also, I consider what else the handicapper has in mind and allow modifications to be made easily. I usually provide expansion room. Would a programmer who hasn't been in the "trenches" of trying to pick winners even think that his client may want to test future variations on his new holy grail spot play? Or maybe a whole new spot play?
Originally Posted byTraynor
"Explicit instructions" is the key phrase. If a user has no real idea what he or she wants, or what kind of ouput is needed, it is impossible for the programmer to be a mind reader. Hence there could be a great deal of "project creep.

If, however, the user knows exactly what he or she wants, the actual coding is relatively trivial in RAD languages. Handicapping knowledge is irrelevant; all that matters is that the instructions about what is desired can be explicitly stated. If not, the issue is one of indecisiveness on the part of the user, not of programming skill (or cost).
Good Luck"Traynor, you are dealing with programmers from a perspective of a programmer. Not only that, but you are a handicapper. That gives you 2 decisive advantages in dealing with other programmers.

K9Pup
01-21-2007, 08:07 AM
Traynor,

IMHO, as a far-from-amateur/hobbyist programmer myself, I find your advice to find a rank amateur (such as a college student) and have him write a multi-hundred hour project just a terrible idea.

And the thought that such a project is just 20 hours or so is nuts. Heck... you try creating a data dictionary of one of those BRIS imports.. you might spend 5 or 6 hours just creating a data dictionary with the 900 or so fields in it!


No sh!t!!!



Permit me to tell you what will happen if he does try to hire a "college guy:"

First, he will get a great deal... the guy will say, "I can do that for just $500" or "I can do that in about 20 hours at $25 per hour." Then, once the project has hit about triple the amount budgeted, the guy will have finals to worry about or his new girlfriend will begin taking up his time. For whatever reason suddenly the contractee will get no response to the repeated messages he leaves for the contractor.

Ultimately, he will have to start all over with a new guy. And his money will be gone.


Cheap programming rarely works out. It's like getting your haircut at the barber college. Your hair will grow back, but your money won't.



Exactly!! Programming is one of those things where you get what you pay for. People pay $100? $125 an hour for a plumber. But balk at paying $50/hr for a programmer???????

K9Pup
01-21-2007, 08:12 AM
"Explicit instructions" is the key phrase. If a user has no real idea what he or she wants, or what kind of ouput is needed, it is impossible for the programmer to be a mind reader. Hence there could be a great deal of "project creep."

If, however, the user knows exactly what he or she wants, the actual coding is relatively trivial in RAD languages. Handicapping knowledge is irrelevant; all that matters is that the instructions about what is desired can be explicitly stated. If not, the issue is one of indecisiveness on the part of the user, not of programming skill (or cost).
Good Luck

I think it is unrealistic to expect explicit instructions from most people. Even with those instructions there is a need to translate "handicapping instructions" to computer instructions.

From the discussion so far, it seems you may be in the minority on this one. Heck the guy that started the thread hasn't even responded. Maybe his hordware is broken. :)

Dave Schwartz
01-21-2007, 09:49 AM
Traynor, you are dealing with programmers from a perspective of a programmer.

Traynor,

Now I understand! And I understand you better!

You are a projects manager! That is why these things seem so easy to accomplish.

And perhaps they are - for you! I can tell you that they aren't for me. Managing a programmer is - well, it is almost as difficult as writing the code myself. Maybe harder.

We used to have this contract programmer that lived in Siberia. No joke! Siberia! I send him work - some small module that was a bitt horizontal from my own vertical niche - and it would come back doing something completely different than what I asked for. Sure, he'd make it right but eventually I would have almost two hours in the two-hour job that he did for $20 per hour. So, I saved the extra two hours it would have taken me to figure it out but at my amortized hourly rate it would still cost me a sizeable sum.

I think, Pup has it right.

In order to make the progrmmer management work, you've got to write up a decent set of specifications of what you want. Most people don't know how to do that. You and I do but specs are tough.

Back in the late '70s I actually used to do computer consulting for small companies that hired me just to write the specs and interface between them and the programmer.

To tell you the truth, I'd like an opportunity to pick your brain sometime for some tips on how to manage programmers. I would love to outsource the programming and just do the design work.



Dave

nitecapper
01-21-2007, 03:10 PM
I would strongly recommend using an existing program (ie. Excel) for its simplicity, speed, inherent calculations and powerful VBA component. This immediately saves a ton of money on programming cost.

'hcap' has a fabulous ‘File Importer’ program that he was giving away for free which brilliantly imports all 1400 fields into Excel in a snap (both race cards and results). That alone is a great head start and saves you money right off the bat. He has other program modules that take the imported data and manipulate it accordingly. These would save you a lot of time and money from having to unnecessarily recreate from scratch what already exists.

Originally Posted by Traynor
"Explicit instructions" is the key phrase. If a user has no real idea what he or she wants, or what kind of ouput is needed, it is impossible for the programmer to be a mind reader. Hence there could be a great deal of "project creep."
I requested hcap build me a custom 'Graphing' module that I was interested in experimenting with, which he was able to do without much explaining. It graphed 2nd call times versus final times of all races in a runners history, and showed a graph of each runner on one page. I pretty much knew what I wanted, but being himself a handicapper, he was able to offer great suggestions that made the whole thing even better. Thus, it's much more advantageous and expedient to work with someone that also knows the many diverse aspects of handicapping rather than just any programmer.

Consider the major sections of a typical program:
1. files parsing & importing
2. calculations & formulations
3. results output formatting

Each of these sections requires considerable time and a good chunk of money to implement, so again, why not use the components that already exist and focus on (and invest in) areas that really matter - ie. your custom calculations and formulas.

If you’re simply looking to do CUSTOM data manipulation and calculations, hcap's Excel program(s) would definitely, by far be the cheapest and most efficient way to go. I say start with what’s already available, then pay for customization according to your particular needs and desires.

traynor
01-21-2007, 07:55 PM
Traynor,

Now I understand! And I understand you better!

You are a projects manager! That is why these things seem so easy to accomplish.

And perhaps they are - for you! I can tell you that they aren't for me. Managing a programmer is - well, it is almost as difficult as writing the code myself. Maybe harder.

We used to have this contract programmer that lived in Siberia. No joke! Siberia! I send him work - some small module that was a bitt horizontal from my own vertical niche - and it would come back doing something completely different than what I asked for. Sure, he'd make it right but eventually I would have almost two hours in the two-hour job that he did for $20 per hour. So, I saved the extra two hours it would have taken me to figure it out but at my amortized hourly rate it would still cost me a sizeable sum.

I think, Pup has it right.

In order to make the progrmmer management work, you've got to write up a decent set of specifications of what you want. Most people don't know how to do that. You and I do but specs are tough.

Back in the late '70s I actually used to do computer consulting for small companies that hired me just to write the specs and interface between them and the programmer.

To tell you the truth, I'd like an opportunity to pick your brain sometime for some tips on how to manage programmers. I would love to outsource the programming and just do the design work.



Dave

I am doing my Master's thesis on managing technical virtual teams. When I get it into a rough draft stage, I'll email you a copy. Briefly, the most common error people make is applying communication principles and techniques that work well in face-to-face or synchronous (real time) to asynchronous (out of synch) communication. It doesn't work too well.

I agree completely that the specs are the key; the least bit of ambiguity can lead to disastrous (and very expensive, both in time and money) errors.
Good Luck

traynor
01-21-2007, 08:01 PM
nitecapper,
Totalmente de acuerdo. The same situation exists with "libraries" of functions in RAD languages. It is extremely rare to find a programmer who would try to start from scratch and build an application. Most import libraries of functions, and tweak them to do the specific job.

For example, from VB, it takes only a few lines of code to open an Excel worksheet, load it with data, make calculations or whatever using the functionality of Excel, and return the results to the VB application (or accumulate them in an "ongoing" spreadsheet).
Good Luck

raybo
01-21-2007, 09:37 PM
nitecapper,
Totalmente de acuerdo. The same situation exists with "libraries" of functions in RAD languages. It is extremely rare to find a programmer who would try to start from scratch and build an application. Most import libraries of functions, and tweak them to do the specific job.

For example, from VB, it takes only a few lines of code to open an Excel worksheet, load it with data, make calculations or whatever using the functionality of Excel, and return the results to the VB application (or accumulate them in an "ongoing" spreadsheet).
Good Luck

Heck, write an Excel spreadsheet to get the data and then do what you want with it, use access or whatever to store it. Can't be that big of a deal.

K9Pup
01-22-2007, 07:44 AM
Heck, write an Excel spreadsheet to get the data and then do what you want with it, use access or whatever to store it. Can't be that big of a deal.

I don't think anybody is saying it is a big deal, just that it is more than a 3-4 hour job. But honestly I don't see how any of us can estimate the time required when the "detailed specs" are .....

I am looking for someone to develop a simple program to track trainers and traner patterns. I would like to be able to update it by downloading the data. Is this possible?

raybo
01-22-2007, 10:12 PM
I don't think anybody is saying it is a big deal, just that it is more than a 3-4 hour job. But honestly I don't see how any of us can estimate the time required when the "detailed specs" are .....

I am looking for someone to develop a simple program to track trainers and traner patterns. I would like to be able to update it by downloading the data. Is this possible?

Well, I'd still say write your own and yes it's possible to update by downlosding the data.

0o0o0
02-14-2007, 08:55 PM
What do ya want?.. Im not a ahole who takes your betting techniques and STILL charges you for a program creation. I'll make the program and we both have a copy.. Honestly I dont understand why people charge for their programming or betting programs for that matter..

cause if their programs are THAT GREAT.. they should be financial set using them themselves..... then to half to charge you $50-$500.. for the program..

am I right?

Drop me an email.

raybo
02-14-2007, 10:08 PM
What do ya want?.. Im not a ahole who takes your betting techniques and STILL charges you for a program creation. I'll make the program and we both have a copy.. Honestly I dont understand why people charge for their programming or betting programs for that matter..

cause if their programs are THAT GREAT.. they should be financial set using them themselves..... then to half to charge you $50-$500.. for the program..

am I right?

Drop me an email.

LOL. If you can write me a program that can accurately assign current condition to each horse, get after it!

ryesteve
02-14-2007, 10:53 PM
Im not a ahole

am I right?

I'm gonna take a stab and say "no"

K9Pup
02-15-2007, 08:57 AM
I'm gonna take a stab and say "no"


:lol: :lol: :lol:

raybo
02-15-2007, 09:03 AM
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Guy's a real winner, huh?:bang:

dukeofperl
02-18-2007, 02:17 PM
This is my 1st post so I'll start by saying HI to everyone. ...

George

To advertise, talk to the board admin. No free advertising of commercial web sites allowed.

dukeofperl
02-18-2007, 06:14 PM
This is my 1st post so I'll start by saying HI to everyone. ...

George

To advertise, talk to the board admin. No free advertising of commercial web sites allowed.

I apologize to the admin(s) and the forum members. Apparently I made a bad assumption when I saw other references to web sites, developers and book sellers/buyers in this thread.

Thank you

Murph
02-18-2007, 06:29 PM
I apologize to the admin(s) and the forum members. Apparently I made a bad assumption when I saw other references to web sites, developers and book sellers/buyers in this thread.

Thank youMaybe it was the HTR posts that fooled you.

bigmack
02-18-2007, 06:52 PM
Maybe it was the HTR posts that fooled you.
Not even veiled - You're making progress

http://www.bestanimations.com/Humans/Mouths/Teeth-01-june.gif

dukeofperl
02-18-2007, 06:58 PM
Maybe it was the HTR posts that fooled you.

Yeah Murph -- HTR, HSH, abe's books, references to a couple of programmers -- but I should have known better, this isn't the first time I've been on a forum. Gonna try to get off to a better start.

BillW
02-18-2007, 07:20 PM
Yeah Murph -- HTR, HSH, abe's books, references to a couple of programmers -- but I should have known better, this isn't the first time I've been on a forum. Gonna try to get off to a better start.

Duke,

HSH is a paid advertiser here and the HTR principal doesn't post here as far as I know. Please read the TOS and all will be well.

Bill

dukeofperl
02-18-2007, 07:29 PM
Duke,

HSH is a paid advertiser here and the HTR principal doesn't post here as far as I know. Please read the TOS and all will be well.

Bill

Thanks BW.

Something I always do is read the TOS but this time I neglected it, for whatever reason. Shortcuts get ya every time.

BillW
02-18-2007, 07:32 PM
Thanks BW.

Something I always do is read the TOS but this time I neglected it, for whatever reason. Shortcuts get ya every time.

BTW Welcome to the board.

PaceAdvantage
02-18-2007, 09:10 PM
Perhaps more than one person needs to review the terms of this board.

NEVER has it been said that one could not post about a product, service, book, or anything like that. EVERY MEMBER IS FREE TO POST ABOUT ANY PRODUCT, SERVICE, OR BOOK that they wish, provided that said member is not CONNECTED TO THE PRODUCT in any way, other than that they have purchased and/or have tried the product.

Thank you.

Murph
02-19-2007, 06:34 AM
Not even veiled - You're making progressWhat are you talking about? You are the person who took this thread off topic from the second post!

Hey, Bill W and CJ,
Why don't you moderate this jerk for a change?

cj
02-19-2007, 08:07 AM
What are you talking about? You are the person who took this thread off topic from the second post!

Hey, Bill W and CJ,
Why don't you moderate this jerk for a change?

I would never edit a post PA has obviously seen already.