A lack of wisdom

[formula_2002]

For which we are all responsible.
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/scores-dead-in-bombings-at-baghdad/20070116065309990009

[PaceAdvantage]

For which we are all responsible.
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/scores-dead-in-bombings-at-baghdad/20070116065309990009

Not me.

[PlanB]

Just Astounding.

[PlanB]

Not me.

Denial? Humility? Blinkers On? I think formula has made a point.

[formula_2002]

Not me.
Oh yes..you are. No excuses.. For the war or against it (as I was) we are all to blame. No excuses..
We are one people, for the good or bad.

Joe M

[bigmack]

Oh yes..you are. No excuses.. For the war or against it (as I was) we are all to blame. No excuses..
We are one people, for the good or bad.

I'm responsible for any decision the feds made and/or make as a citizen of this country?

With all due respect - you're nuts.

[formula_2002]

I'm responsible for any decision the feds made and/or make as a citizen of this country?

With all due respect - you're nuts.

In a word, YES.

"One Nation.....with liberty and justice for all"
Dont duck it. Kids recite it everyday.. Own up to it..

[46zilzal]

In a word, YES.

"One Nation.....with liberty and justice for all"
Dont duck it. Kids recite it everyday.. Own up to it..
Strange where does that say others are responsible for what vegetable for brains does at the top? Might all be part of the result, but the rutabaga initiated the stupidity.

[singunner]

I don't vote, refused to say the pledge as soon as they tried to make us (because I understood what they were saying enough to know it didn't sound right and that I couldn't swear to something with "God" in it because I was brought up knowing "God" as something nobody could quite agree on). I moved out of the US the first chance I got and have been struggling to stay out since.

Regardless, my taxes go to support a war I do not agree with, and I consider myself a murderer for it. It's a dangerous thing to make a person who desperately wants to be moral into a murderer. That is to say, if I'm not legally allowed to not support what I consider the murder of innocents, don't be surprised when I do something that's not considered legal.

Also, don't make the mistake that everyone is in this nation to the same degree. The dissolution of titles such as "King" and "Duke" didn't get rid of the people. We have a president who is the son of another president. I'm sure that's just a 1 in 300 million coincidence. Might also want to note that his other son isn't exactly selling papers on the corner either. The dark ages got the light bulb and we said they were over, but we're still ruled over. We claim class mobility because the media highlights the few "miracle" cases. In reality, there is general balance and lack of change, as there has always been.

[PaceAdvantage]

Oh yes..you are. No excuses.. For the war or against it (as I was) we are all to blame. No excuses..
We are one people, for the good or bad.

Joe M

Oh no I'm not. We could go on and on. Anyone running around Iraq today blowing up innocents....not my doing. Sorry buddy. They only have themselves to blame for their criminal, murderous way.

Nobody is forcing ANYONE to blow up innocents. And certainly NOT me....

And don't make me laugh with the "we are one people, for the good or bad."

Seems to me, you and your ilk are only ONE people for the BAD.....

[Secretariat]

With the "surge" coming to Baghdad, it is only going to get worse before it gets better...whatever that is. I am a Christian and pray to God GW is not making a bigger mistake than he ever did going in initially.

[Tom]

Joe, you're nuts.
NOt me eitiher.
You hae the typical liberal attitude - guilt. LKibs like to blame the US for everything. no offense, but I think it is a carryover of your loser attitude about horses.

Is a mother responsible if her son commits murder later in life? After all, she gave him birth.

And given the UN story ( an institution known for lying and deceict), why should I take thier story over Iraq's? Rem,eber, the UN ran out of Iraq, tail between it's legs a long time ago.

Put the blame where it belongs - on those fighting to deny milliions thier freedom.

[Suff]

Oh no I'm not. We could go on and on. Anyone running around Iraq today blowing up innocents....not my doing. Sorry buddy. They only have themselves to blame for their criminal, murderous way.

Nobody is forcing ANYONE to blow up innocents. And certainly NOT me....

And don't make me laugh with the "we are one people, for the good or bad."

Seems to me, you and your ilk are only ONE people for the BAD.....

When Powell advised ,....... "You break it, you own it"

Who is the you?

[PaceAdvantage]

Who is the you?

The racist, bigoted terrorist murderers actually DOING the breaking. It all boils down to high school physics when you get right down to it....and I've never been to Iraq....

It's your line of thinking (and Formula's, and a whole bunch of other folks) that gives these terrorists all the justification they need to murder innocent American civilians, ala 9/11.

[JustRalph]

When Powell advised ,....... "You break it, you own it"

Who is the you?

I agree with PA. Good post Boss............

Suff, totally different animal than what formula is proposing. Powell was saying this specifically to those who governed at the time.

I don't get it. You guys (the left) never seem to understand that murder and mayhem are the result of individual actions by people who choose to commit crimes etc. You absolve them of their actions by quoting "conditions" and "environment" it is a damn joke. I suppose everyone in LA was responsible for the riots after Rodney King induced the LA cops to whip his ass? After all, the citizens of LA empowered the police department and funded them with their tax money. Those responsible were the individuals who were beating hell out of Reginald Denny and tearing the city apart because they saw an excuse to tear down the city. That's right. An excuse to act up.

Same arguement is applied by the anti-gun left. As the bumper sticker says, Guns don't kill people............you know the rest

I will leave you with a modified quote for purposes of this thread:

Blaming American citizens for the insurgency is like blaming pencils for bad grades.

Thanks to Larry the Cable Guy for the quote. Or at least part of it.

[singunner]

I wonder how long it will be until these subjects can be discussed rationally. It's going to take a long time, I think, given all the intense feelings thrown around here. Either one side is going to have to be thoroughly proven wrong, or the status quo will be maintained and interest and tempers will eventually fade.

How long after Vietnam ended was it before people started talking about it in normal speaking voices?

[JustRalph]

How long after Vietnam ended was it before people started talking about it in normal speaking voices?

You had a beer in a VFW in the last five years? the answer is Never!

[singunner]

You had a beer in a VFW in the last five years?
...no?

How long before it'll get out of the public light, I guess? I remember there were some really crappy nam movies that came out in the 80s, and that seemed to be the tail end of it for the general public. So do we figure about 10 to 15 years after the end of the conflict or what?

[dav4463]

Might as well blame it all on Bush. He gets blamed for everything anyway.

[Suff]

The racist, bigoted terrorist murderers actually DOING the breaking. It all boils down to high school physics when you get right down to it....and I've never been to Iraq....

It's your line of thinking (and Formula's, and a whole bunch of other folks) that gives these terrorists all the justification they need to murder innocent American civilians, ala 9/11.

I did'nt say anything about who is Responsible. I asked you a question.

"you break it, you own it" Colin Powell said that to George Bush.

You suggest that Colin Powell was talking to the Iraqi's?

[PaceAdvantage]

I did'nt say anything about who is Responsible. I asked you a question.

"you break it, you own it" Colin Powell said that to George Bush.

You suggest that Colin Powell was talking to the Iraqi's?

If he said it to George Bush, then why do you need to ask me who he was talking to?

Was he talking to me? That's what the point of this thread was to begin with...to lay the blame of innocent deaths partly at MY feet.

I don't accept that line of flawed logic.

[Suff]

..to lay the blame of innocent deaths partly at MY feet.

I don't accept that line of flawed logic.

Has not that very thing been laid at the feet of Americans who oppose the war?


Yes, he did say to the war planners "You break it you own it"...


Guess what? It's broke. We own it. Forget guilt, forget blame, those are your words. Forget responsible even. Accountable is the the better word.


We have to repair it. That's the point. No one is trying to lay a guilt trip, or hang deaths on your name. Not shame anyone. As Americans. We broke it, we own it.

[PaceAdvantage]

As Americans. We broke it, we own it.

Again, I disagree with this flawed logic.

America didn't break anything that wasn't way beyond BROKEN BEFORE we got there. All America did was lift the blanket that WAS Saddam Hussein, the blanket that was covering the seething mess of HATRED, BIGOTRY and RACISM!!

Do you think for a minute that the US created the hatred that the Sunnis and the Shiites have for each other?

[46zilzal]

and that BROKEN place still had nothing to do with 9/11

[PaceAdvantage]

and that BROKEN place still had nothing to do with 9/11

Who cares? It was a nation that lent support to terrorists and Bush declared a war on terror right after 9/11. Someone had to be second after Afghanistan.

[46zilzal]

I think the families of all the "newly legless" or the new additions to ground fertilizer would liked to have known they were fighting a battle against the real forces that attacked the U.S. and not some b.s idea from the annals of the New American Century theorists.

these stupid bastards;http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

[Show Me the Wire]

and that BROKEN place still had nothing to do with 9/11


Great, according to the intelligence at the time 9/11 ocurred, you are correct. This argument of yours has been conceeded in the past. Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11.

I know you want to live in a static world like sec, but that is not the way of nature, you an evolutionist especially should understand life is not static.

The Iraqi war is about fighting global terrorism. Now make your case with your inane one-liners that Saddam's Iraq was not involved in terrorism.

[46zilzal]

Strange....never heard of a single IRAQI agent ever being part of any plot carried out on the west.

[singunner]

They tell you that, with some stab wounds, it's better to leave the knife in. I think Hussein was a knife we shouldn't have pulled out without surgical precision.

Maybe he was evil, but that isn't neccessarily bad. If you have to kill a few hundred rebels in a brutal way to maintain authority, so be it. He was the reason Iraq didn't break into civil war, and by removing him, we've opened up the flood gates. Iraqis no longer have to worry about the army or government killing their whole families if they act up, because that goes against democracy. So if you don't mind dying for your cause (given that it won't have negative effects on your loved ones), you're going to do it. Hussein was a strong system of control BECAUSE he was ruthless. This is going to be a very long civil war.

[Show Me the Wire]

Strange....never heard of a single IRAQI agent ever being part of any plot carried out on the west.

Doesn't cut it. An attack on Israel, a U.S. ally, is akin to attacking the U.S. Just ask the two Senators from the State of New York.

Convince us that Iraq did not sponsor terrorism.

[Show Me the Wire]

They tell you that, with some stab wounds, it's better to leave the knife in. I think Hussein was a knife we shouldn't have pulled out without surgical precision.

Maybe he was evil, but that isn't neccessarily bad. If you have to kill a few hundred rebels in a brutal way to maintain authority, so be it. He was the reason Iraq didn't break into civil war, and by removing him, we've opened up the flood gates. Iraqis no longer have to worry about the army or government killing their whole families if they act up, because that goes against democracy. So if you don't mind dying for your cause (given that it won't have negative effects on your loved ones), you're going to do it. Hussein was a strong system of control BECAUSE he was ruthless. This is going to be a very long civil war.

Maybe not, if Iran or Syria moves in they will institute the same Saddam type civil rest.

[Suff]

Again, I disagree with this flawed logic.

America didn't break anything that wasn't way beyond BROKEN BEFORE we got there. All America did was lift the blanket that WAS Saddam Hussein, the blanket that was covering the seething mess of HATRED, BIGOTRY and RACISM!!

Do you think for a minute that the US created the hatred that the Sunnis and the Shiites have for each other?

I don't know ...You don't know. This is what I do know. The statement that it is/was flawed logic , was the logic we used.

What else I know....and you know it to. Did we do everything we could do to mimimize it or in some bizarre circumstance avoid it?

You saw the hiring practices they used. I know you did, because I posted them. They hired people based on thier views of Roe V Wade.

Iraq's not something you or I know enough about to say with any conviction what went wrong. I can only use information I have. That information says we did poor post-combat planning.

Even the planners concede that.

[Tom]

We broke it, of course we own it.
That is why Bush will not listen to the sad-sack left and abandon ship.
He is going to stay unitl it is fixed. Negotiating with Iran and Syria or any of the other Iraq Surrender Group suggestion make so sense. What we are getting ready to do - admittedly what we should have done in 2004 when we had Fallujah surrouned - is the only thing that makes any sense.
Unlike the faint-hearted dems, some will not abandon our responsibility to the vast majority of Iraqis.

[46zilzal]

won't change a thing

[PaceAdvantage]

You saw the hiring practices they used. I know you did, because I posted them. They hired people based on thier views of Roe V Wade.

I need to read this again, because I find this quite unbelievable. Where's that search button?

[JustRalph]

Maybe he was evil, but that isn't neccessarily bad. If you have to kill a few hundred rebels in a brutal way to maintain authority, so be it.

Amazing quote. A few hundred? This guy killed upwards of 300,000 people by some estimates? Some others say 600k because he forced people to fight in the war with Iran, who were fighting hand to hand with Iranians and if they refused, they were shot by their Commanders. 500k deaths in the war with Iran according to some sources. Put it all together and you think he killed a few hundred rebels?

Either way, it wasn't "a few hundred" I can't believe you even typed that?

"he wasn't neccessarily bad" give me a friggin break!

[singunner]

I meant a few hundred at a time.

[dav4463]

the man's heroes were Stalin and Hitler ! Hussein = BAD !

[singunner]

Bam. Godwin's law. 38 posts in.

[rastajenk]

That's nine more than it took for someone to gloss over Saddam's extracurricular activities. "Evil...isn't necessarily bad." Sounds like Marge Schott when she said, "Hitler was good in the beginning, but he went too far." Ooops; Godwin in Aisle 40. :)

[Suff]

I need to read this again, because I find this quite unbelievable. Where's that search button?




RAJIV CHANDRASEKARAN: The hiring process involved questions that would have landed a private sector employer in jail. They asked people what their views on Roe versus Wade were, whether they believed in capital punishment. People were asked who they voted for for president .



NARRATOR: At the Ministry of Interior, there was a new staff person handling planning for the prisons and police.

Col. THOMAS X. HAMMES (Ret.), Counterinsurgency Adviser, CPA: The plans counterpart, who I had to work with in the Ministry of Interior, was a 25-year old. It was his first job after college. So I asked him- I said, "That's pretty interesting. How big a plan cell do you have?" He said, "I have four guys." I said, "That's pretty small." He said, "Yes, but we're really tight because we're frat brothers." I never in my life thought I would encounter "frat brothers" and "strategic planners" in the same sentence



__________________________________________________ _________

This is the one you have put to stock in. They were told. They were warned. They were advised. And they said F'off! Choices & Decisions......

THOMAS E. RICKS: Garner had briefed Rumsfeld on de-Ba'athification. He had briefed Condi Rice on de-Ba'athification. And he had, I thought, a fairly cold-hearted but realistic assessment, which is the Ba'athists are an Iraqi problem, and more or less, let the Iraqis take care of it. They know who the really bad guys are and they will kill them. And he was pretty content to let that happen.

Lt. Gen. JAY GARNER: So we went in and we talked to Ambassador Bremer for a few minutes. And I said, "You know, this is too deep." I said, "Give Charlie and I about 45 minutes to an hour. Let us digest this thing, and then let us recommend some changes to you and come back here, and we'll get on the phone with Rumsfeld to see if we can't soften this a bit."

THOMAS E. RICKS: And Bremer kind of says, "Look, you don't understand. I'm not asking you, I'm telling you. This is what I'm going to do. I'm not asking for your advice." And they argue a bit more. And finally, Bremer says, "Look, I have my orders. This is what I'm doing."

Lt. Gen. JAY GARNER: And so I said, "Well, Charlie, what do you think?" And to the best of my memory, Charlie said, "Well, if you do this, you're going to drive 30,000 to 50,000 Ba'athists underground by nightfall. And the number's closer to 50,000 than it is 30,000."

[PaceAdvantage]

RAJIV CHANDRASEKARAN: The hiring process involved questions that would have landed a private sector employer in jail. They asked people what their views on Roe versus Wade were, whether they believed in capital punishment. People were asked who they voted for for president

When I used the word "unbelievable" I was referring mostly to the above quote. Now, excuse my ignorance, but who the hell is Rajiv Chandrasekaran? I see he's written a book about life in Iraq's Green Zone? Is that correct?

Why should I take what he has to say at face value?