Pletcher: I don't cheat

[PaceAdvantage]

An interesting news story popped up on the PA home page (http://www.paceadvantage.com/) today, courtesy of The Racing Dispatch (http://www.racingdispatch.com):

Pletcher: I don't cheat (http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=553660&category=SPORTS&newsdate=1/14/2007)
Currently serving a suspension for a medication positive, Todd Pletcher remains firm in the cleanliness of his operation. The Albany Times Union took the question about cheating right to Pletcher, something many journalists have never done. Said the nations leading trainer, "I don't cheat, and we run a clean organization. I would hope that hard work and horsemanship are the reasons we do well."

[Murph]

I believe him.

[betovernetcapper]

What I find interesting is Pletcher's layers comment that the amount in question was like a grain of rice thrown in Lake Saratoga. Was this just a trace amount?

[the little guy]

I wish someone could post the pps of the race in question, of the entire field and the horse that had those trace amounts of mepivocaine, and also the replay of the race.

I remember it all well.....and I remember being VERY confused by what took place. It was an Energizer Bunny type performance.

[betovernetcapper]

Has anyone heard the rumor that the horse's owners have applied to the Jockey Club to change his name from Traces of Glory to Traces of Mepivocaine?

[dccprez]

Has anyone heard the rumor that the horse's owners have applied to the Jockey Club to change his name from Traces of Glory to Traces of Mepivocaine?


That is TOO friggin' funny!
You ROCK betover!

[betovernetcapper]

Thanks-but it just had to be said :)

[kenwoodallpromos]

It is too easy to Google "pletcher violation" and find stuff.
One asect I find unbelievable is that Pletcher's suspension is honored everywhere.
_______
Florida:
"License Type Name Name Type License Number/
Rank Status/
Expires City
PMW Professional Individual Occupational
PLETCHER, TODD A Primary PIN1076285
Prof Individual
***Current 06/30/2007
PORT WASHINGTON"
If he were suspended in Fl the license would not say "current", it would say "suspended".
___________
California:
"License Number - 272025
Name TODD ARDIS PLETCHER
Division THOROUGHBRED
License Type TRAINER
Expiration Date 6/2009
***Standing Contact CHRB)

[JustRalph]

I found a trace amount of truth in his statement

" I would hope"

[kenwoodallpromos]

What I find interesting is Pletcher's layers comment that the amount in question was like a grain of rice thrown in Lake Saratoga. Was this just a trace amount?

http://www.thorograph.com/phorum/read.php?1,31560,31563,quote=1
_________--
Can be used in equine dental work. limit sgould be zero. If Pletcher's barn made a mistake they should admit it.
I'm sure it is difficult to keep all the meds and withdrwals time correct; should be on every condition book.
I get a kick out of all the excuses he made, and the fact that jockeys get banned from almost all tracks the second any hints of wrongdoing are raised; Pletcher gets 2 years delay, can afford to fight his suspension all the way to the NY Supreme Court!, then picks the time period he wants off so he can do his saddling of horses on national TV days!LOL!!

[bigmack]

I wish I could offer a snappy comment on the likes of Pletcher as the learned few can.

Pound for pound, it's 007. Out with the 'super trainers' and in with some level of legitimacy.

Enough of detention as the punishment is fit for blowing bubbles in class.

You're found in violation again Pletcher - Bye bye for all time - K?

End of story - You f-ing cheat.

[cj]

Pletcher should have just written the article himself. Did this guy ask any tough questions? Of course, the writer probably doesn't know enough about racing to ask real questions.

[BIG49010]

I believe Pletcher, Lake, etc... I don't think any of the "SUPER TRAINERS" cheat, they know the rules, what drugs they are testing for, the allowable levels, etc.. , etc... and they run their horses under those guidelines.

If you want a game with zero drugs, forget about 10 races a day, at 10 -15 different tracks, because it won't happen with the "modern racehorse" without drugs. America with the need for speed, has limited the ability of the horse to with stand the rigors of training without drugs.

[Murph]

Pletcher should have just written the article himself. Did this guy ask any tough questions? Of course, the writer probably doesn't know enough about racing to ask real questions.Indeed.
Who wrote the article?

Murph

[Murph]

End of story - You f-ing cheat.From the article in question:
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=553660&category=SPORTS&newsdate=1/14/2007&TextPage=1

Duanesburg's Don Lucarelli owns part of Octave and also is part owner of Keyed Entry, who finished last in the 2006 Kentucky Derby. That horse also is trained by Pletcher.

Lucarelli has seen Pletcher's operation close up and said he doesn't believe Pletcher would intentionally break the rules.

"I've been around the backstretch, and there is none of that going on," Lucarelli said. "This is an unfortunate situation he has to deal with. Todd is a workaholic. Believe me, I was a workaholic in my business, and he puts me to shame. Personally, I believe this is a witch hunt, and I don't care if you write that."

What "evil elixir" would account for Keyed Entry's performance in the '06 KY Derby, bigmack? Maybe he OD'ed?

Murph

[PriceAnProbability]

From the article in question:
http://timesunion.com/AspStories/story.asp?storyID=553660&category=SPORTS&newsdate=1/14/2007&TextPage=1

Duanesburg's Don Lucarelli owns part of Octave and also is part owner of Keyed Entry, who finished last in the 2006 Kentucky Derby. That horse also is trained by Pletcher.

Lucarelli has seen Pletcher's operation close up and said he doesn't believe Pletcher would intentionally break the rules.

"I've been around the backstretch, and there is none of that going on," Lucarelli said. "This is an unfortunate situation he has to deal with. Todd is a workaholic. Believe me, I was a workaholic in my business, and he puts me to shame. Personally, I believe this is a witch hunt, and I don't care if you write that."

What "evil elixir" would account for Keyed Entry's performance in the '06 KY Derby, bigmack? Maybe he OD'ed?

Murph

I suppose the horses in Philadelphia (not Pletcher's obviously) who take detours to the outside rail before rejoining the field (and winning!) do it on hay, oats and water as well, and are just sweaty and scared naturally while doing it.

[alysheba88]

Of course he cheats.

[Murph]

Of course he cheats.How do you handicap and wager on a race that has a Pletcher run horse?

I don't see how people who believe the large stable trainers are responsible for so many "doped" horses, can place even a $2 wager on any horse race.

Murph

[alysheba88]

How do you handicap and wager on a race that has a Pletcher run horse?

I don't see how people who believe the large stable trainers are responsible for so many "doped" horses, can place even a $2 wager on any horse race.

Murph

I actually look at it the opposite way. For the life of me cant understand how people refuse to see the obvious cheating that goes on every single day.

The juicing trainers have pretty set patterns and is not that difficult to take advantage of their misdeeds at the betting windows. Just part of the handicapping process.

Pletcher, Dutrow, Asmussen, etc have all been caught- We are way past the "allegation" stage.

[cj]

How do you handicap and wager on a race that has a Pletcher run horse?

I don't see how people who believe the large stable trainers are responsible for so many "doped" horses, can place even a $2 wager on any horse race.

Murph

It is easy...

1st time Pletcher, plus 10 points.
1st time Dutrow, plus 15 points.
1st time Lasix, plus 7 points.
2nd Pletcher, plus 5 points.
etc, etc.

After a few times in the new barn, cap them as usual, until they begin to show decline and layoff. Then, repeat.

[shanta]

Pletcher: I don't cheat

Clinton: I didn't inhale

:eek:

[cj]

Pletcher: I don't cheat

Clinton: I didn't inhale

:eek:

He also didn't have s ... nevermind.

As for Keyed Entry, there is only so much drugs can do, lets not get crazy.

[classhandicapper]

Pletcher really doesn't have all that great a record with horses that were just turned over to his barn. He has moved up a few, but he's nowhere near the class of Dutrow, Contessa, and others in terms of consistency. I never bet first time Pletcher horses for that reason alone.

I use 4 criteria to tell who is clearly cheating vs. who might be cheating but who might also be using "legal" performance enhancers, better horsemanship, and better care.

1. Do the horses he just got improve immediately or are they in his care for awhile before they start improving?

2. Does he do as well with horses that are handed over to him somewhat randomly as he does with those he claims. IMO, if he's only moving up the latter category it could very well be that he's got some skill at finding horses with correctable problems. Otherwise, he'd be moving up both categories equally.

3a. Does he move up horses he took from other top trainers?
3b. Do horses that other top trainers took from him fall apart quickly?

4. Does he have a lot of well bred lightly raced stock that is eligible to constantly improve.

[Murph]

It is easy...You are truly blessed, CJ.

Nothing about horse race handicapping and gambling has come easy for me. I just keep hitting that rock though. I'll crack it one day if I can work hard enough.

Murph

[cj]

I was just joking about the points, I don't really quantify it like that. :)

[Murph]

I actually look at it the opposite way. For the life of me cant understand how people refuse to see the obvious cheating that goes on every single day.

The juicing trainers have pretty set patterns and is not that difficult to take advantage of their misdeeds at the betting windows. Just part of the handicapping process.

Pletcher, Dutrow, Asmussen, etc have all been caught- We are way past the "allegation" stage.I don't deny that medications and treatments should be considered when handicapping. What you say has been true of trainer patterns for many years. I expect the top trainers to use the most modern techniques available to them as they also seek the edge on this game we admittedly love.

I view Pletchers violation (and many others) as an error in administration. Clear up the rules, make them the same nationwide and then we as handicappers may be able to more reliably identify those who would conspire to "fix" the races.

I also believe that the racing industry will eventually address this issue positively - before they realize their demise. Please don't assist the naysayers and sore losers who would try to kill our game.

Murph

[Murph]

I was just joking about the points, I don't really quantify it like that. :)NO WAY !!! :eek:

DUDE, I just bet the DD at AQU on those adjustments!

[classhandicapper]

I was just joking about the points, I don't really quantify it like that. :)

I figured. ;)

I'm probably the most naive person on earth, but even though I think I could list a few clear cut cheaters, I think there's less cheating going on than some people think.

Perhaps a few trainers are very skilled and have the resources to push the envelop of what is legal. A lot of drugs are legal to use but illegal to race with. Maybe some of them are just better at using them and timing their removal. Then there are things like steroids, growth harmones and other stuff along those lines that aren't illegal. I don't know, but it's probably very expensive to keep a horse on all that kind of stuff. So if everyone can't afford to do it, those that do will have a huge advantage without actually breaking any rules.

Then again, maybe I'm just naive to think that some of these guy are both skilled and are taking every possible legal and grey advantage.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Cocaine Cases Against Three Trainers Dropped
by Lenny Shulman
Date Posted: August 8, 2002
Last Updated: August 9, 2002

A three-year-old drug-positive case against trainers David Donk, Todd Pletcher, and Mark Hennig has been dropped by the Florida Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering. Horses conditioned by the trio were found to have trace amounts of cocaine in their systems after races at Gulfstream Park and Hialeah Park in 1999.
"This result was the right thing to do," said attorney John Behrendt, who represented all three trainers. "It was an obvious contamination. From our discovery, Florida will call a positive on cocaine no matter how small the level. The Federal Aviation Administration will let a commercial airline pilot fly with up to 150 nanograms. It's just there in society and people can pick it up handling money, in restaurants, wherever. But it doesn't have any effect and doesn't indicate any intentional activity."
__________________
So which restaurant was Pletcher's horse handling money in?LOL!!

[Robert Fischer]

:confused:

[classhandicapper]

Cocaine Cases Against Three Trainers Dropped
by Lenny Shulman
Date Posted: August 8, 2002
Last Updated: August 9, 2002

A three-year-old drug-positive case against trainers David Donk, Todd Pletcher, and Mark Hennig has been dropped by the Florida Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering. Horses conditioned by the trio were found to have trace amounts of cocaine in their systems after races at Gulfstream Park and Hialeah Park in 1999.
"This result was the right thing to do," said attorney John Behrendt, who represented all three trainers. "It was an obvious contamination. From our discovery, Florida will call a positive on cocaine no matter how small the level. The Federal Aviation Administration will let a commercial airline pilot fly with up to 150 nanograms. It's just there in society and people can pick it up handling money, in restaurants, wherever. But it doesn't have any effect and doesn't indicate any intentional activity."
__________________
So which restaurant was Pletcher's horse handling money in?LOL!!

That's a very interesting set of quotes.

Perhaps some of these barns have a huge drug problem, but not just with the horses. :rolleyes:

[betovernetcapper]

Cocaine Cases Against Three Trainers Dropped
by Lenny Shulman
Date Posted: August 8, 2002
Last Updated: August 9, 2002

"It was an obvious contamination. From our discovery, Florida will call a positive on cocaine no matter how small the level. The Federal Aviation Administration will let a commercial airline pilot fly with up to 150 nanograms. It's just there in society and people can pick it up handling money, in restaurants, wherever. But it doesn't have any effect and doesn't indicate any intentional activity."
__________________
So which restaurant was Pletcher's horse handling money in?LOL!!

This reminds me of the shower head episode of Seinfield in which Elaine is accused of opium use due to eating poppy seed bagels.

[Fastracehorse]

An interesting news story popped up on the PA home page (http://www.paceadvantage.com/) today, courtesy of The Racing Dispatch (http://www.racingdispatch.com):

Scotty Lake has 2 suspensions at 2 different tracks.

Asmussen just finished a 6 monther.

Norman Cole is in trouble.

Art Sherman's horses are in the detention barns at SA.

Contessa is winning the Aqu inner again and we all remember he had some positives a few years back when he was also on fire.

The commonality with the aforementioned is that they are all high % trainers.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

I don't deny that medications and treatments should be considered when handicapping. What you say has been true of trainer patterns for many years. I expect the top trainers to use the most modern techniques available to them as they also seek the edge on this game we admittedly love.

I view Pletchers violation (and many others) as an error in administration. Clear up the rules, make them the same nationwide and then we as handicappers may be able to more reliably identify those who would conspire to "fix" the races.

I also believe that the racing industry will eventually address this issue positively - before they realize their demise. Please don't assist the naysayers and sore losers who would try to kill our game.

Murph

Well the milkshake ( sodium bicarbonate cocktail ) isn't that modern but it worked well.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

Cocaine Cases Against Three Trainers Dropped
by Lenny Shulman
Date Posted: August 8, 2002
Last Updated: August 9, 2002

A three-year-old drug-positive case against trainers David Donk, Todd Pletcher, and Mark Hennig has been dropped by the Florida Division of Pari-Mutuel Wagering. Horses conditioned by the trio were found to have trace amounts of cocaine in their systems after races at Gulfstream Park and Hialeah Park in 1999.
"This result was the right thing to do," said attorney John Behrendt, who represented all three trainers. "It was an obvious contamination. From our discovery, Florida will call a positive on cocaine no matter how small the level. The Federal Aviation Administration will let a commercial airline pilot fly with up to 150 nanograms. It's just there in society and people can pick it up handling money, in restaurants, wherever. But it doesn't have any effect and doesn't indicate any intentional activity."
__________________
So which restaurant was Pletcher's horse handling money in?LOL!!

Trainer Vienna is a lawyer/trainer out of S. Cali. - he has represented trainers with positives out there and hit a p-6 for a 250 k few years back.

fffastt

[the little guy]

Scotty Lake has 2 suspensions at 2 different tracks.




Scotty?

[PlanB]

Pletcher, a cheat? I do NOT think so. okay, a positive test, for some arcane drug, with lots of unknowns; and so what he has the bucks to delay his sentencing. That only shows how cerebral he is. My father-in-law told me that once he was asked by bank auditors what his deceased predecessor meant by a kind of incriminating file concerning a big merger. He told me that after some very long meeting, with all kinds of authorities, he got annoyed & said, 'If you don't believe my take on this, DIG HIM UP.' --- hehe, he kept his cool and wouldn't be squashed.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Name: PLETCHER, TODD A
Number Class Incident Date Status Disposition Disposition Date Discipline Discipline Date
2001526817 03/12/2000 Closed No Action Taken 03/12/2000
2001526814 03/17/1999 Closed Suspend License 03/17/1999
2001526815 03/17/1999 Closed Suspend License 03/17/1999
2001526816 05/28/1999 Closed Reinstated 05/28/1999
2002012197 License (Individual and Business ) Viola 10/12/2002 Closed Judges/Stewards Ruling 11/03/2002 Reprimand 11/03/2002
2001506043 Drug Positives - Performance Enhancing ( Closed Consent Order 08/06/2002
2001506044 Drug Positives - Non-performance enhanci Closed Judges/Stewards Ruling 04/07/2000

[kenwoodallpromos]

Name: DUTROW, RICHARD EUGENE JR
Number Class Incident Date Status Disposition Disposition Date Discipline Discipline Date
2005002787 Waivers 01/14/2005 Closed Waiver Granted 01/17/2006
2006011803 Other 02/08/2006 Closed Judges/Stewards Ruling 02/09/2006 Fine 02/09/2006
2006011805 Other 02/11/2006 Closed Judges/Stewards Ruling 02/12/2006 Fine 02/12/2006
2005021163 Bute Overage 03/23/2005 Closed Judges/Stewards Ruling 05/09/2005 Fine
_____________________
No violations on record for Baffert, Lake, Contessa; only 1 non-performance for Lukas.

[the little guy]

Pletcher, a cheat? I do NOT think so. okay, a positive test, for some arcane drug.


Well, you are entitled to your opinion about Todd, but I hope it's more accurate than your opinion about Mepivocaine, as it is hardly an " arcane drug ".

[CryingForTheHorses]

Pletcher really doesn't have all that great a record with horses that were just turned over to his barn. He has moved up a few, but he's nowhere near the class of Dutrow, Contessa, and others in terms of consistency. I never bet first time Pletcher horses for that reason alone.

I use 4 criteria to tell who is clearly cheating vs. who might be cheating but who might also be using "legal" performance enhancers, better horsemanship, and better care.

1. Do the horses he just got improve immediately or are they in his care for awhile before they start improving?

2. Does he do as well with horses that are handed over to him somewhat randomly as he does with those he claims. IMO, if he's only moving up the latter category it could very well be that he's got some skill at finding horses with correctable problems. Otherwise, he'd be moving up both categories equally.

3a. Does he move up horses he took from other top trainers?
3b. Do horses that other top trainers took from him fall apart quickly?

4. Does he have a lot of well bred lightly raced stock that is eligible to constantly improve.


THIS IS A VERY GOOD POST WITH OUTSTANDING THOUGHTS. Horseman that seem to do well off the claim in my opinion are guys to stay away from as you get burned claiming theses guys horses as they have been on the hoist.Big stables have lots of help and lots of times you will see the grooms working for these guys giving meds in the morn.What goes around in my head is why would Todd risk everything for 1 race.I have also seen trainers give a horse a "ace" pill for the horse to gallop in the morn..Settles the horse if said horse is a handfull..My answer to that is get help that can handle the horse.This whole thing I feel is a internal problem in his barn with his help.Very easy for someone to make a mistake in these big barns.Someone knows what happened and I think Todd is taking the rap.IF he really is a cheat then "Dam" him

[BIG49010]

Tom you hit the nail on the head, why would anyone claim off these guys, but they do. They must not read the racing form, and see all the claiming races with horses that are running for 1/2 the price they ran for when trained by the Catalano, Lake or Dutrow.

I have been a big fan of Wayne Catalano over the years, and watch him claim horses and move them up the ladder, then drop them in classs for a win and someone steps in and claims the horse. Some never make it back to the races, and others find their next wins at 1/2 the claiming price.

Last year at Gulfsteam he took a horse off Dutrow in a 7 way shake, ran it back for 25k higher than he claimed it for and won, and somebody claimed the horse. The horse next ran again at Delware in the summer for what Catalano claimed it for and didn't win for 6 or 7 races

[kenwoodallpromos]

THIS IS A VERY GOOD POST WITH OUTSTANDING THOUGHTS. Horseman that seem to do well off the claim in my opinion are guys to stay away from as you get burned claiming theses guys horses as they have been on the hoist.Big stables have lots of help and lots of times you will see the grooms working for these guys giving meds in the morn.What goes around in my head is why would Todd risk everything for 1 race.I have also seen trainers give a horse a "ace" pill for the horse to gallop in the morn..Settles the horse if said horse is a handfull..My answer to that is get help that can handle the horse.This whole thing I feel is a internal problem in his barn with his help.Very easy for someone to make a mistake in these big barns.Someone knows what happened and I think Todd is taking the rap.IF he really is a cheat then "Dam" him
________________
I think Pletcher would have looked much better if he had just said accidents happen and settle up. But he is the one who chose to spend big money on a lawyer taking the case to the Supreme Court of NY and making up several excuses, and had owners who went to the press on his behalf. Pletcher made that big a deal out of it, and he set the record for $$ earned.
Lake was going for the record for wins in a year. Norman won 9 straight LA titles, and was on 1 year suspension in Ca while jacking up 2 horses n CO2 in one stakes race. I think they deserve all the publicity thrown their way. And what the people on this forum are in agreement with is that penalties for performance enhancing drugs should be stricter than for non.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Please read:
"http://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/ad3/Decisions/2006/500198.pdf"
This is the official ruling of the NY State Supreme Court. It says Pletcher was arguing that the definition of the word "administer" is wrong and that it has to be proven that a trainer intentionally did something to dope up a horse or no fine or suspenion. It also says Platcher gave several other explainations of how the drug got into the horse's system.
My readings says that drug is used when a horse's teeth are worked on. If the horse's teeth were worked on and there is no record Pletcher has lousy record keeping; if the teeth were not being worked on somebody drugged the horse. Or maybe we are to believe that track hay contains 800 different kinds of banned drugs?
Here are my suggestions:
1) Every condition book includes full drug rules and withdrawal times.
2) violation of enhancing drugs results in loss of 50% of stable space for 1 full meet in addition to fine equal to amount of winning purse.
3) Any vet or trainer must take a 2-hour open book drug written test at state racing office or track office prior to new or renewed license (or end of suspension, at which offending horse's owner also takes the test).
4) Full nationwide database of all personnel violating any rules accessible to the public.
5) Honoring of any rulings of 1 state in all other states.
Either that or find a lot more slots players.

[alysheba88]

I don't deny that medications and treatments should be considered when handicapping. What you say has been true of trainer patterns for many years. I expect the top trainers to use the most modern techniques available to them as they also seek the edge on this game we admittedly love.

I view Pletchers violation (and many others) as an error in administration. Clear up the rules, make them the same nationwide and then we as handicappers may be able to more reliably identify those who would conspire to "fix" the races.

I also believe that the racing industry will eventually address this issue positively - before they realize their demise. Please don't assist the naysayers and sore losers who would try to kill our game.

Murph

Assisting the naysayers? Its the people who have consistently tried to sweep the rampant cheating under the carpet who have nearly destroyed the game. Not the people who refuse to let them do it

[alysheba88]

Tom you hit the nail on the head, why would anyone claim off these guys, but they do. They must not read the racing form, and see all the claiming races with horses that are running for 1/2 the price they ran for when trained by the Catalano, Lake or Dutrow.

I have been a big fan of Wayne Catalano over the years, and watch him claim horses and move them up the ladder, then drop them in classs for a win and someone steps in and claims the horse. Some never make it back to the races, and others find their next wins at 1/2 the claiming price.

Last year at Gulfsteam he took a horse off Dutrow in a 7 way shake, ran it back for 25k higher than he claimed it for and won, and somebody claimed the horse. The horse next ran again at Delware in the summer for what Catalano claimed it for and didn't win for 6 or 7 races


Because the trainer who claims doesnt have the same magic juice. You are basically making the point that many of the top guys cheat- of which I agree with 1000%

[Murph]

Assisting the naysayers? Its the people who have consistently tried to sweep the rampant cheating under the carpet who have nearly destroyed the game. Not the people who refuse to let them do itMy apologies for misinterpreting your posts, it is perfectly clear to me now though. You are a naysayer.

Murph

[alysheba88]

My apologies for misinterpreting your posts, it is perfectly clear to me now though. You are a naysayer.

Murph

If being a naysayer means acknowledging a drug problem in racing, I please guilty.

If being an apologists for any and all wrong doing in the sport is being a "supporter"- I dont want to be one.

The cheating trainers have done what they have done for one simple reason. Because they could. If the states and tracks start getting serious about this that is a good thing- not a bad thing.

[Murph]

If being a naysayer means acknowledging a drug problem in racing, I please guilty.

If being an apologists for any and all wrong doing in the sport is being a "supporter"- I dont want to be one.

The cheating trainers have done what they have done for one simple reason. Because they could. If the states and tracks start getting serious about this that is a good thing- not a bad thing.I don't expect my opinion would change your position on this issue. You are making perfectly valid points yet you may be reaching the wrong conclusions. I'm enjoying this discussion of the matter with you, btw.

In all types of racing there is no secret made of the fact that racing teams with the largest budgets clearly have a greater chance to win most of the racing contests. It is also a long standing tradition of the losers to accuse the well funded teams of cheating. I have no problem (personally) with extending this logic to the horse track as well.

Cheating on the level you suggest would involve a huge conspiracy between jockeys, trainers, vets, stewards, track operators and regulatory agencies. I can't believe that and still attempt to gain an advantage as an outsider by wagering on the race outcomes.

Murph

[alysheba88]

I don't expect my opinion would change your position on this issue. You are making perfectly valid points yet you may be reaching the wrong conclusions. I'm enjoying this discussion of the matter with you, btw.

In all types of racing there is no secret made of the fact that racing teams with the largest budgets clearly have a greater chance to win most of the racing contests. It is also a long standing tradition of the losers to accuse the well funded teams of cheating. I have no problem (personally) with extending this logic to the horse track as well.

Cheating on the level you suggest would involve a huge conspiracy between jockeys, trainers, vets, stewards, track operators and regulatory agencies. I can't believe that and still attempt to gain an advantage as an outsider by wagering on the race outcomes.

Murph


I think you may be misunderstanding some of what I am saying ( I enjoy this too). This is not about allegations. I am talking about facts. Not opinions. Look at the recent suspensions of the "super trainers". People who make excuses for these guys and say none of them are really guilty are interjecting opinion.

Now I can speculate the problem is far bigger (and I do). But not even talking about speculation really- looking at what has actually transpired- proven positives

[CryingForTheHorses]

I think you may be misunderstanding some of what I am saying ( I enjoy this too). This is not about allegations. I am talking about facts. Not opinions. Look at the recent suspensions of the "super trainers". People who make excuses for these guys and say none of them are really guilty are interjecting opinion.

Now I can speculate the problem is far bigger (and I do). But not even talking about speculation really- looking at what has actually transpired- proven positives


Yes they have proven positives but that doesnt say that Todd did this on purpose.These "super" trainers have huge outfits relying on help.Ever notice all the guys with positives...BIG outfits where they train in numbers. A small trainer wouldnt lose track of whats going on.

[alysheba88]

Yes they have proven positives but that doesnt say that Todd did this on purpose.These "super" trainers have huge outfits relying on help.Ever notice all the guys with positives...BIG outfits where they train in numbers. A small trainer wouldnt lose track of whats going on.

Is your take all of these guys are as pure as snow and its all the "crooked help's" fault?

[CryingForTheHorses]

Is your take all of these guys are as pure as snow and its all the "crooked help's" fault?

Geeze your missing the point..WHY would he risk all for this one race..Cant say the help is crooked.When you have big outfits mistakes are made plane and simple.I hate to think these guys would do this on purpose when 1 race isnt going to make or break them.

[kenwoodallpromos]

Yes they have proven positives but that doesnt say that Todd did this on purpose.These "super" trainers have huge outfits relying on help.Ever notice all the guys with positives...BIG outfits where they train in numbers. A small trainer wouldnt lose track of whats going on.
________________
Google "pletcher violation administer court" etc. to find the court decision.
I think Tom and everyone else is missing an extremely large point here:

Pletcher took his case all the way to the NY Supreme Court in hopes of setting a precedent that ALL TRAINERS could use to eliminate any penalties for doping unless it can be proven that the trainer INTENTIONALLY doped up the horse.
That means that almost every case of doping would be thrown out and trainer would be virtually exempt from any penalties from doping as rules now apply.
THe CHRB has already stated publicly twice that they are afraid of lawyers and politicians causing less penalties.
If Pletcher had his way honest trainers like Tom Schell would never win another race with the likes of not only the Pletchers dominating due to size of the barn and assistants, but smaller current doping trainers would run the tracks. As it is most states do not publish violations by trainers or others.

As it is, non-winners have les than a 1 in 6 chance of being tested at all. and the bigger the purse the less the risk/reward ration. Ask Tom Schell what the average purse he races for vs. Pletcher or other big trainers. What is the last time Tom had 2 horse in the same $150k race like big shot cheater Norman? How many times did Tom saddle multiple horses in the BC races like Pletchr who got away with coking up a horse on a technicallity?
Does a small trainer like Tom have the funds to take a case to the Supreme Court of NY and argue that (by precendent) any future case of doping horses with something banned totally on raceday and given with no verified purpose should be ignored because "trainer intent" has to be proven by stewards, tracks, or states in several court with their attorney's fees?
If anybosy thinks that Pletcher taking his case to the NY Supreme COurt and spending all his attorney fees was not intended to try to win and allow Pletcher and other to run wild with needles they are mistaken.
Ask any lawyer or look it up- a decision in a state supreme court changing or ajudicating a law equals a precedent that can be used in any court in any state in the USA.
I am going to urge that Ivasor's trainer be named Trainer Of The Year!!

[alysheba88]

Geeze your missing the point..WHY would he risk all for this one race..Cant say the help is crooked.When you have big outfits mistakes are made plane and simple.I hate to think these guys would do this on purpose when 1 race isnt going to make or break them.

You really think its one race? One time in his life and he happened to get caught? Do you think the same of drunk drivers?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Google: precedent "new york state supreme court" for many articles on how the NY Supreme Court set precedents.

[kenwoodallpromos]

You really think its one race? One time in his life and he happened to get caught? Do you think the same of drunk drivers?
The one case of Cocaine use in a horse in 1999 Pletcher took to the District court of appeals to get thrown out- that may have set a precedent for following cases as to timeliness of decision making. That is what he has a history of.
i Itm is not about just one case- it is about a trainer's past history for performance-enhancing drugs and 2 Eclise awards in 2004 and 2005, along with locks oin training titles by manipulating the system.Just like the trainer in Ca that is currently being watched for constantly coming in just under the limit for CO2.

[njcurveball]

Pletcher would have to be the unluckiest guy on the backstretch to be caught the ONLY time his outfit tries something illegal.


His "choke" record with the Triple Crown and the Breeders Cup may just shed a better light on what happens to his stable when he doesn't take chances.

Jim

[jma]

You really think its one race? One time in his life and he happened to get caught? Do you think the same of drunk drivers?

I was going to bring that up if no one else did. When you're talking about such inconsistent testing (or maybe it's more the enforcement that's the problem, either way), there obviously are patterns of use. It's not just one time out of a million and they happen to catch the guy then---and even if that did happen once to someone, it wouldn't explain multiple positives. I'm not knocking the clean trainers, but anyone who is trying to be as clean as they can and still win should be the MOST concerned with helping to catch those who aren't, not defending them.

[alysheba88]

Pletcher would have to be the unluckiest guy on the backstretch to be caught the ONLY time his outfit tries something illegal.


His "choke" record with the Triple Crown and the Breeders Cup may just shed a better light on what happens to his stable when he doesn't take chances.

Jim

Or under more scrutiny

[alysheba88]

I was going to bring that up if no one else did. When you're talking about such inconsistent testing (or maybe it's more the enforcement that's the problem, either way), there obviously are patterns of use. It's not just one time out of a million and they happen to catch the guy then---and even if that did happen once to someone, it wouldn't explain multiple positives. I'm not knocking the clean trainers, but anyone who is trying to be as clean as they can and still win should be the MOST concerned with helping to catch those who aren't, not defending them.

That is what I dont understand. You would think the honest trainers and owners would band together. Their living is directly impacted by the cheats. Directly. But again considering they all protect their own in other sports its not surprising.

What does surprise me is when players defend the cheats. Players!

[kenwoodallpromos]

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[classhandicapper]

Pletcher would have to be the unluckiest guy on the backstretch to be caught the ONLY time his outfit tries something illegal.


His "choke" record with the Triple Crown and the Breeders Cup may just shed a better light on what happens to his stable when he doesn't take chances.

Jim

The same could be said of Bobby Frankel. ;)

[Fastracehorse]

Because the trainer who claims doesnt have the same magic juice. You are basically making the point that many of the top guys cheat- of which I agree with 1000%

It's not just the big guys that cheat.

There are hundreds of small outfits all throught Noth America that use illegals IMHO.

Whenever U see a surprise - of which there are many - and not all are drug induced ( I'll be the first to say ) - U can specualte that this horse was cranked. Quite often, it is a very low % barn - I'm talking .04.

If U have been watching Aqueduct this winter, there have been more than a handful of these types.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

I don't expect my opinion would change your position on this issue. You are making perfectly valid points yet you may be reaching the wrong conclusions. I'm enjoying this discussion of the matter with you, btw.

In all types of racing there is no secret made of the fact that racing teams with the largest budgets clearly have a greater chance to win most of the racing contests. It is also a long standing tradition of the losers to accuse the well funded teams of cheating. I have no problem (personally) with extending this logic to the horse track as well.

Cheating on the level you suggest would involve a huge conspiracy between jockeys, trainers, vets, stewards, track operators and regulatory agencies. I can't believe that and still attempt to gain an advantage as an outsider by wagering on the race outcomes.

Murph

I can believe it Murph. It's unbelieveable what people get away with. It is so obvious yet so difficult to prove legally - and what a stain on a sport that already has had enough problems. Do you see how embarrassed these owners seem when they get nailed?? Horse Racing doesn't want this.

And, it is also true that a big stable with the big horses would feel the big pressure to use the big juice. The money in this game is in the breeding. If U are a breeder you want a trainer to get U a G-1 winner.

fffastt

[PlanB]

Pause & Think. It happens in how many sports? Now that football-soccer is getting the Star infusion, will this sport get contaminated? Swimming/ Running;
different from Baseball/Football/WeightLifting. Muscle fatigue vs Strength, hence different meds. Fillies getting Male Hormones? Pain reducers? Coke? what are these meds trying to do?

[alysheba88]

It's not just the big guys that cheat.

There are hundreds of small outfits all throught Noth America that use illegals IMHO.

Whenever U see a surprise - of which there are many - and not all are drug induced ( I'll be the first to say ) - U can specualte that this horse was cranked. Quite often, it is a very low % barn - I'm talking .04.

If U have been watching Aqueduct this winter, there have been more than a handful of these types.

fffastt

I agree on all counts

[kenwoodallpromos]

I agree on all counts________________
We know about 1.4% of samples tested are positive for an overage of raceday legal substance, and about .5% are positive for something totally banned on raceday- but we really have no stats on the % of samples are actually tested, or where the positive horses finished. We also have no stats on how close to the threshold tested sample are that are not over.
SO if a trainer is constantly trying to get just under the limit and once in a while goes over, we do not know. But if we had the stats we would kn ow who is violating on primarily big races because the fines are small, and who gets caught in a variety of races.
In Ca the rules state winner and one other horse gets samples, up to a total of 9 others per racecard. Stakes the ITM horses get sample. But no telling how many sample actually get tested. NY says ALL horses get tested pre-race, and some after.
We as betting public and trainers as competition have absolutely no idea what is going on because testing may or may not be random at all. It is set up to be mysterious and as random as possible, just like buying a claiming horse or guessing the finish time of a loser.
So whether you are buying, betting, or training, you make an "educated" guess.
And if you are Todd Pletcher, you go to a higher court to try to get racing changed so your coke suspension in Fl will get thrown out or at least not honored in NY (it was dropped), or your recent supension thrown out in NY. Both appeals aimed at changing racing completely to ensure that cheating trainers never get caught unless their mind can be read and their "intention" can be proved and then only get punished in the 1 state the violation is in.
At least I can imagine what that would do to allow trainers to cheat unstoppably and totally ruin wagering.
That is why I say make Invasor's trainer the Eclipse winner and not Pletcher!

[Kelso]

Cheating on the level you suggest would involve a huge conspiracy between jockeys, trainers, vets, stewards, track operators and regulatory agencies.

Murph

Why would it require so wide a conspiracy? Couldn't it be just as effectively accomplished by a collection of trainers-with-needles, all acting independently, and unwittingly/irresponsibly abetted by the incompentence/disinterest of the authorities ... and, of course, tacitly encouraged by owners eager to have them "train" their animals? If so, that's not a conspiriacy. That's just apathy-enabled greed.

[Murph]

The trainers mentioned here are responsible for hundreds of horses run at tracks all over the country every year. That adds up to quite a bit of apathy on the part of many others who depend on wagering at a (basicly) level playing field for their livelihood. See Mr McSchell's comments.

Is that possible? Anything is possible but it seems unlikely so many would stand for it when it became apparent this is what's happening. For every "drug-co" giant stable there are about 100 small barns who would not stand for it. If you want to believe there is that much corruption and apathy I wont stop you. That take just does not work for me. It reduces the sport to a laundramat for organized crime proceeds.

I've seen plenty of horse races where the results don't match the PP's. I do not believe that cheating and collusion do not exist either, just not on the scale that many of the posters seem to think. I am certanly not trying to defend any race fixers, yet if I were to blindly accept all of the allegations posted you'll have me believe that nearly all races have a predetermined outcome, including several runnings of the ky derby and the entire card for the 2006 breeders cup.

Murph

[RXB]

Murph, I'm very curious to hear your explanation of the sudden onslaught of mega-win trainers in the last decade. Did guys like Steve Miyadi, Art Sherman, Jeff Mullins, etc., go up to the top of the mountain, have a Buddha-like enlightenment regarding the training regimen for horses, and come back down knowing all?

I guess I'll be branded as a naysayer, too. But if this isn't the work of the apothecaries, I'm right out to lunch.

Bless Adam Kitchingham's soul. At least, when he got caught, he didn't try to weasel his way through it with the usual denials. He said something to the effect of: "I made a mistake and I'm not going to lie about it."

Reminds me of the mid-late 90's in baseball, when slap-hitters suddenly started hitting 30+ home runs, and 20 home-run guys started whacking 40-50 in a season, and a lot of people derided those who suggested steroids were involved.

[Murph]

I've stated my opinion clearly in the earlier posts RXB, an that's all it is afterall, an opinion. If you want to believe there is that much corruption and apathy I wont stop you. That take just does not work for me.

Murph

[kenwoodallpromos]

Murph, I'm very curious to hear your explanation of the sudden onslaught of mega-win trainers in the last decade. Did guys like Steve Miyadi, Art Sherman, Jeff Mullins, etc., go up to the top of the mountain, have a Buddha-like enlightenment regarding the training regimen for horses, and come back down knowing all?

I guess I'll be branded as a naysayer, too. But if this isn't the work of the apothecaries, I'm right out to lunch.

Bless Adam Kitchingham's soul. At least, when he got caught, he didn't try to weasel his way through it with the usual denials. He said something to the effect of: "I made a mistake and I'm not going to lie about it."

Reminds me of the mid-late 90's in baseball, when slap-hitters suddenly started hitting 30+ home runs, and 20 home-run guys started whacking 40-50 in a season, and a lot of people derided those who suggested steroids were involved.
_____
Sherman just got popped, but I do know he and Myadi have been claiming some nice horses. Don't know if some of their run-of-the-mill types are all of a sudden stakes horses.

[Murph]

Now this from the PA home page link:
Vet accused of injecting vodka (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=2736333)

It's difficult to deny the situation is not getting worse by the day. There appears to be no end in sight either, no matter my take on the issue.

Murph

[Zman179]

If Pletcher doesn't cheat, then I don't download internet porn.

[Fastracehorse]

Now this from the PA home page link:
Vet accused of injecting vodka (http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=2736333)

It's difficult to deny the situation is not getting worse by the day. There appears to be no end in sight either, no matter my take on the issue.

Murph

"The University of Pennsylvania has developed a blood test that can detect alcohol in horses, and the University of California-Davis is studying the possible development of a post-race breathalyzer, Waterman said."

Very comical.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

If Pletcher doesn't cheat, then I don't download internet porn.

fffastt

[cj]

Here is a site for you:

Lots of nudity! (http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?_adv_prop=images&imgsz=&imgc=&vf=&va=horse+photos&fr=moz2&ei=UTF-8)

[CryingForTheHorses]

[QUOTE=Murph]I've stated my opinion clearly in the earlier posts RXB, an that's all it is afterall, an opinion. If you want to believe there is that much corruption and apathy I wont stop you. That take just does not work for me.

Murph[/QUOTE


Another thing that comes to mind. This guy is already making big money!!..Of the hundreds of horses this man runs..A very small percentage have had a positive..Doesnt sound like a cheat to me..Sounds to me a malfuntion of the trainer NOT keeping on top of his business.

[crownx]

some are just better than others. What pisses me off is now WHEN the DON't.. I expect them to have there horses juiced, so when they finish dead last I get upset. my $$ depends on them cheating to win.. some drugs cocktails are better than other// whenver they test either they know to layoff or have gotten a new drug that is not detectable..YET..

And dont forget WHAT we CALL CHEATING///

Needles Plectcher,Sherman,MULLINS, etc.. consider just good horsemanship. Just win baby.. that is all they care about. oh and $$$.

[Fastracehorse]

some are just better than others. What pisses me off is now WHEN the DON't.. I expect them to have there horses juiced, so when they finish dead last I get upset. my $$ depends on them cheating to win.. some drugs cocktails are better than other// whenver they test either they know to layoff or have gotten a new drug that is not detectable..YET..

And dont forget WHAT we CALL CHEATING///

Needles Plectcher,Sherman,MULLINS, etc.. consider just good horsemanship. Just win baby.. that is all they care about. oh and $$$.

I depend on looks to determine if they are cranked - but I hate it when a horse looks flat but still wins by half the stretch.

fffastt

[john del riccio]

I saw a Dutrow horse at MTH this summer that looked like he wanted to do anything but run. Bad coat, head down, ears back, sweating on a day that it wasn't real humid. He was 4-5 and won by a pole.

John

[kenwoodallpromos]

CHRB is right looking for public comment on many tougher penalties for drugs.
I like them all including considering stall denial! Please email them if you want tougher penalties in Ca!

[Fastracehorse]

I saw a Dutrow horse at MTH this summer that looked like he wanted to do anything but run. Bad coat, head down, ears back, sweating on a day that it wasn't real humid. He was 4-5 and won by a pole.

John

But I think that's why we luv this game - it's serious drama all the time.

fffastt