Need help :) TPR numbers ? I am in a temporary fog ..

[BeatTheChalk]

and need help ! I want to say Total Pace Rating .. but even if I am correct
I don't know where to find the ratings :bang: Appreciate your help & don't tell anyone that I couldn't remember..thanks !

[Greyfox]

Hi,

I'm not sure what you're looking for.
The following definition is available from a site that I don't want to advertise here.

TOTL PACE = AVERAGE TOTAL PACE RATING. Mid and late pace rating added together. If a horse has the highest total pace and the early pace rating is one of the best in the race it's usually a very good sign. Especially if the race shape is in that horse's favor.

You could either make your own, or try one of the Pace services on the net.

[Greyfox]

If you want to find sites that have total pace ratings, if that is what you are actually looking for:

1. Go to Google

2. Type in Total Pace Rating + Horse Racing

I hope that helps.

[Tom]

TPR = EP + F3

(second call pace rating + third fraction pace rating)

Our own Dick Schmidt sells the book - the original.

[cccorona]

Check out the free Brisnet race of the day for tomorrow at:

http://www.brisnet.com/Promo/Free_PPs/brd_comp.pdf

go to the race summary page and add the E2 + Late and that should give
you a "snapshot" of the TPR. This total should line up with the "spd" rating
in most cases.

CC

[raybo]

and need help ! I want to say Total Pace Rating .. but even if I am correct
I don't know where to find the ratings :bang: Appreciate your help & don't tell anyone that I couldn't remember..thanks !

Different people calculate it differently. If you're using Bris data: E2 includes E1 so no need to add them together. That favors early speed too much. LP is from E2 to finish, so if you add E2 and LP you get total pace, but it really depends on what the E2 was. If it was lower than what he will face today, then the TPR would probably not be too accurate. You really need to analyze what the horse can handle early and still finish strong. Total pace doesn't necessarily tell you that by itself.

[Dick Schmidt]

TPR does indeed stand for Total Pace Ratings. It is fully described in the book Tom Hambleton and I wrote about 10 years ago and remains a potent handicapping method to this day.

Raybo and others: no, different people don't calculate TPR differently. Some do it wrong but there is only one way to do it right. Use the charts provided in "Pace Makes the Race" or a computer program that incorporates those charts. I get so tired of people saying "add F2 and F3 and you get TPR." No, you don't. You miss the power of translating different distances for the third fraction, the carefully crafted distance adjustments and the entire procedure of adjusting the ratings for track conditions and track to track changes.

Guys, I'm not telling you to buy the book or anything (I no longer make anything from the sales) but if you are going to comment on TPR, do me the favor of at least commenting on the TPR numbers that Tom and I sweated over for 5 years, not some halfassed approximation that you are sure is "just like the real thing."

Dick

A lie can go around the world, while the truth is putting on it's shoes.
- Mark Twain

[Greyfox]

anything from the sales) but if you are going to comment on TPR, do me the favor of at least commenting on the TPR numbers that Tom and I sweated over for 5 years, not some halfassed approximation that you are sure is "just like the real thing."



So there Guys. Take that. Thank you surly member.

[raybo]

TPR does indeed stand for Total Pace Ratings. It is fully described in the book Tom Hambleton and I wrote about 10 years ago and remains a potent handicapping method to this day.

Raybo and others: no, different people don't calculate TPR differently. Some do it wrong but there is only one way to do it right. Use the charts provided in "Pace Makes the Race" or a computer program that incorporates those charts. I get so tired of people saying "add F2 and F3 and you get TPR." No, you don't. You miss the power of translating different distances for the third fraction, the carefully crafted distance adjustments and the entire procedure of adjusting the ratings for track conditions and track to track changes.

Guys, I'm not telling you to buy the book or anything (I no longer make anything from the sales) but if you are going to comment on TPR, do me the favor of at least commenting on the TPR numbers that Tom and I sweated over for 5 years, not some halfassed approximation that you are sure is "just like the real thing."

Dick

A lie can go around the world, while the truth is putting on it's shoes.
- Mark Twain

Whatever. If you think that you did it the only correct way, more power to you. I don't use total pace anyway. Just trying to explain Bris pace numbers in case he was using them. Many people who use Bris and try to get an idea of total pace just add E1, E2, and LP which puts E1 in the equation twice.

[46zilzal]

TPR = EP + F3

(second call pace rating + third fraction pace rating)


Simple as that

[Tom]

Dick,
Of course I was refering to doing YOUR way - using the offical charts. ;)

The first - hardcover- book had a lot of good, general handicapping stuff in it.
I particulary likes the chapters where each authnor addressed a topic.
The second was more focused on the method and both were/are well worth the money.

I was fortunate enough to attend a seminar in Philly that both Dick and Michael put on back in the day, including a trip to Philly Park.

[PlanB]

Simple as that

Is anything about Pace really simple? I still think the TRACK's hardness is one very important factor, provided it's not offset by some other force, like wild winds.

[banacek]

Simple as that

Don't get me wrong. Pace Makes the Race is one of my favourites. But the TPR always seemed very simplistic (not that that is bad)

EPR + FPR = TPR

but TPR is just a speed rating to me

Horse A goes out in 46.0
and his last quarter is 26.0 (TPR=170 total time of 112.0)

Horse B for goes out in 45.0 and finishes in 27.0 (TPR=170 total time of 112.0)

So just looking at the TPR's is equivalent to looking at the final times (at the same distance). I can write down the 1/2 mile time and the final 6f time without going through charts, can't I?

[44PACE]

Don't get me wrong. Pace Makes the Race is one of my favourites. But the TPR always seemed very simplistic (not that that is bad)

EPR + FPR = TPR

but TPR is just a speed rating to me

Horse A goes out in 46.0
and his last quarter is 26.0 (TPR=170 total time of 112.0)

Horse B for goes out in 45.0 and finishes in 27.0 (TPR=170 total time of 112.0)

So just looking at the TPR's is equivalent to looking at the final times (at the same distance). I can write down the 1/2 mile time and the final 6f time without going through charts, can't I?

TPR is most helpfull when you are comparing performances of horses racing at different distances.Comparing final fraction distances like 2F vrs 2 1/2 is easier using TPR than remembering 25.3 vrs 32.2.

[46zilzal]

I just meant the calculations....Interpretation is another ball game completely with the 2nd call MUCH more important than the final fraction.

[Tom]

Horse/Running style/Epr Ffr Tpr

A E 80 85 165
B E 87 78 165


Who ya gonna call?

[cj]

Horse/Running style/Epr Ffr Tpr

A E 80 85 165
B E 87 78 165


Who ya gonna call?

I don't know. I need odds, and the rest of the field. :cool:

[46zilzal]

Horse/Running style/Epr Ffr Tpr

A E 80 85 165
B E 87 78 165


Who ya gonna call?
If it's dirt, the latter probably but what you've shown there is a match race and of course the leader will win

[shanta]

Horse/Running style/Epr Ffr Tpr

A E 80 85 165
B E 87 78 165


Who ya gonna call?

I need
1) surface
2) model data

to answer

[Tom]

That was just an example of how TPR was more than just a speed rating.

Richie, 4 miles 70 yards, in the slop. :D

Actaully, there was one at 4m70 sly - FL in the 70's. I was there. My horse got lapped!

[shanta]

[QUOTE=Tom]
Richie, 4 miles 70 yards, in the slop. :D
QUOTE]

Can I punt Tom?? :lol:

[cj]

Actaully, there was one at 4m70 sly - FL in the 70's. I was there. My horse got lapped!

Maybe the jock thought it was foggy out, or that they would lose count.

[banacek]

That was just an example of how TPR was more than just a speed rating.

My point is if it is the same distance, no need for ratings. I'll write down the fractions and there you go. If it is a different distance I can adjust the fractions to fit today's race. I don't need the ratings.

[Tom]

What if one race is at Belmont and the other is at Calder?
All TPR does is make it easy and faster to compare performances at varying tracks and dstances.
If you don't like them, don't use them.

[banacek]

What if one race is at Belmont and the other is at Calder?
All TPR does is make it easy and faster to compare performances at varying tracks and distances.

True. And I can adjust the times (using Dave Schwartz's info) for each track. Whether you get a chart and make ratings or just adjust the times, the final result is a speed rating. Now if you look at the Early and Late (either by adjusted ratings or adjusted times ) you've got something going. Most of the examples in Pace Makes the Race lists the horse's in order of their TPR and all I am saying is they are listing the horse's by a speed rating. The difference to me in using the EPR and FPR (or the corresponding times) to picture the race in addition to the TPR, whether it is time or ratings
If you don't like them, don't use them.
I have no problem with them, but TPRs are speed ratings. On their own they are fine. It is using them with the splits that makes them powerful (as you are saying in your example).

A E 80 85 165
B E 87 78 165

OR

A E 48.0 25.0 113.0
B E 46.6 26.4 113.0

Who ya gonna call?

[Dick Schmidt]

Two quotes from banacek:

"Horse A goes out in 46.0
and his last quarter is 26.0 (TPR=170 total time of 112.0)

Horse B for goes out in 45.0 and finishes in 27.0 (TPR=170 total time of 112.0)

So just looking at the TPR's is equivalent to looking at the final times (at the same distance). I can write down the 1/2 mile time and the final 6f time without going through charts, can't I?"

and

"I have no problem with them, but TPRs are speed ratings. On their own they are fine. It is using them with the splits that makes them powerful (as you are saying in your example)."


The first is a perfect example of someone completely missing the point, the second a good example of why TPR works. And this from the same guy. I think those using TPR to make a living at the track are safe from having the numbers overused for the foreseeable future.

Dick

“In my experience, there's no such thing as 'luck.'"
--Obi-Wan Kenobi