Don't get mad

[BIG RED]

Derby (www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFMnpQpAFZs)

man they get everything over on u-tube. Don't shoot the messenger

[KirisClown]

I think there was an "investigation" into it after the race.. but nothing was found...

[BIG RED]

Looks like a simple 'low 5', but rumors are for buzzing

[PaceAdvantage]

Derby (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFMnpQpAFZs)

man they get everything over on u-tube. Don't shoot the messenger

Back in the old Prodigy days, I was way into this little "conspiracy"

It was so obvious that something passed between them, and that it wasn't simply a "shadow" as was the official explanation, as I recall.

It's good that someone put this video up....too bad it's such crappy quality.

[BIG RED]

Just like Santos and Funny Side :liar:

[PlanB]

I DOUBT IT. I want to see that Derby from gate to wire. Videos seem so 100% true but are they? Who were the trainers & jockeys involved? It takes a lot to convince me that the Derby turned bad.

[PaceAdvantage]

I DOUBT IT. I want to see that Derby from gate to wire. Videos seem so 100% true but are they? Who were the trainers & jockeys involved? It takes a lot to convince me that the Derby turned bad.

Weren't both those horses owned by Michael Tabor? Both were of course trained by Lukas....Or is my memory shot?

[PlanB]

I don't know the facts of trainers & owners, but I just CANNOT WILL NOT EVER stay playing races if I thought THE DERBY would be fixed by any entity.

[KirisClown]

Weren't both those horses owned by Michael Tabor? Both were of course trained by Lukas....Or is my memory shot?

Thunder Gulch was owned by Tabor...

Timber Country was owned by Overbrook, R+B Lewis and Gainesway Stable..

[Greyfox]

I haven't looked it up, but I think my memory recalls that immediately after the race Pat Day congratulated Gary Stevens. There was nothing more to it.

[ryesteve]

I remember it well. You can argue if it was a shadow or an object, but let me ask this: did the hand positions and body language look like a handshake/low five? And how many times have you ever seen jockeys shake hands while pulling up their horses?

[PaceAdvantage]

I haven't looked it up, but I think my memory recalls that immediately after the race Pat Day congratulated Gary Stevens. There was nothing more to it.

There was an investigation (and JURY TRIAL) in the OJ Simpson case as well....doesn't mean much as we all know....

After viewing the replays of that race over and over again many years ago, it's very clear that something passed between them. What it was, I haven't a clue. But the fact that they claim NOTHING passed between them just makes it so much more interesting.

I wish this topic wasn't dredged up again....I went NUTS over this when the story first broke.

BTW, wasn't there some really odd case where a couple of guys attempted to blackmail Gary Stevens over this incident?

Some of this stuff you just can't make up....

[Greyfox]

With oodles of cameras on every move at the Triple Crown Races, I personally find it hard to believe that Pat Day and Gary Stevens would rig anything up.
I'd be just as interested in knowing if Youtube posted any footage of
the Maryland vet inspecting Barbaro after he broke through the gate.

[PaceAdvantage]

With oodles of cameras on every move at the Triple Crown Races, I personally find it hard to believe that Pat Day and Gary Stevens would rig anything up.

That's really not the issue. History is rife with wealthy and/or powerful people doing stupid things....the aforementioned OJ is a prime example, as is every other celebrity who has ever been arrested or athlete who has ever been caught doping, etc. etc. And let's not forget Richard Nixon.

[Greyfox]

OJ and Richard Nixon didn't ride in Triple Crown Races.

[PaceAdvantage]

In one case though, TAPES played a very important role.....
Are we going anywhere with this?

It's mind blowing to me that anyone can watch the actual footage of that race and not come away 100% convinced an object was passed. (And no, I'm not talking the grainy YouTube footage, although I must admit, it looks MORE DAMNING in that clip than on a clean ABC copy which I have).

[Greyfox]

What people are able to post at Youtube is absolutely amazing.
What people are able to do with digital cameras superimposing on other videos is also absolutely amazing.
i.e. Don't believe everything that you see from Youtube.

[KirisClown]

What people are able to post at Youtube is absolutely amazing.
What people are able to do with digital cameras superimposing on other videos is also absolutely amazing.
i.e. Don't believe everything that you see from Youtube.


I have the original ABC feed from that day... the incident is even more clear than the one on youtube...

It looks like whoever posted it on youtube did so by recording their television screen.. that's always going to come with poor quality. It was by no means doctored...

One thing can be said for Thunder Gulch.. prior to that derby he never won by more then a neck... he LOVED a close finish...

[bigmack]

What people are able to post at Youtube is absolutely amazing.
What people are able to do with digital cameras superimposing on other videos is also absolutely amazing.
i.e. Don't believe everything that you see from Youtube.
Don't be silly. The tape is bonafide. Ain't no superimposing going on

[Greyfox]

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4153/is_20030514/ai_n12043576

Towards the bottom of the above article is the following comment:

"An investigation showed that object to be a shadow or optical illusion - Day had merely reached out his hand to congratulate Stevens."

[PaceAdvantage]

There are shadows, and then there are SHADOWS!!!! LOL

If that was a shadow, it was unlike any other shadow I've ever seen....good thing they gave me a choice of "shadow OR optical illusion"

I guess I'll go with "Optical Illusion" for $100 Alex.

[KirisClown]

The article doesnt lie.... After you shake someones hand, If you look real quick, there is a black rectangular object that appears in their hand afterwards...

[bigmack]

It's mind blowing to me that anyone can watch the actual footage of that race and not come away 100% convinced an object was passed.
It was not only the cupping of the hands in the pass to the receiver but the 'look'. It's a look of "did he get it". When people shake hands en route they don't normally look back to see how the other persons hand is doing. There was definitely a transference of something. What it was, is anyones guess.

[PaceAdvantage]

The article doesnt lie.... After you shake someones hand, If you look real quick, there is a black rectangular object that appears in their hand afterwards...

Good thing the chair I'm sitting in has arm rests, or I would have fallen off!! Thanks for the laugh!!

[PaceAdvantage]

It was not only the cupping of the hands in the pass to the receiver but the 'look'. It's a look of "did he get it". When people shake hands en route they don't normally look back to see how the other persons hand is doing. There was definitely a transference of something. What it was, is anyones guess.

Yeah, we don't even have to get into the "look back." That was, apparently, yet another optical illusion, this time, for $200 Alex......

[bigmack]

Yeah, we don't even have to get into the "look back." That was, apparently, yet another optical illusion, this time, for $200 Alex......
Optical illusion? Rather, Optical Dillusion

I felt the same in '95 PA. Is this another TWA 800?

How was it that nothing came of this?

[BIG RED]

I wish this topic wasn't dredged up again....I went NUTS over this when the story first broke.....

I wasn't bringing the topic back up PA, I was just trying to state how you can find just about anything over on youtube. Sorry about openning old wounds

[arkansasman]

If I was Gary Stevens and was passing something, I would have switched the whip to the left hand.

John

[ryesteve]

If I was Gary Stevens and was passing something, I would have switched the whip to the left hand.

John
... but if you were merely shaking hands, it'd make sense to do so with the whip still in it?? Ummm... ok...

[betovernetcapper]

I like the X Files as well as anyone but................
Thunder Gulch won the Flordia Derby and later the Belmont so a win in KY

isn't amazing. He was overlooked in the betting in part because Lukas had 2

other horses Timber Counrty (Pat Day) and Serena's Song (Cory Nakatani)

each of which seemed to have better current form.

I think Day extended his hand in part because he's (from all I know) a

gentleman and in part because they were each riding for the same team.

In 1997 Stevens was entered in the Hall of Fame and in 1998 earneded an

Eclipse award.

I thought the battery notion was silly at the time and I think it's silly now.

just my2$ :)

[Wiley]

If I was Gary Stevens and was passing something, I would have switched the whip to the left hand.

I think his left hand was already full. It looks to me like Stevens passes whatever he's got from his left hand to his right hand around the mane, I am looking at the grainy youtube feed so I am going by hand/arm movements I can't really see a pass, then completes the feed to Day. No way this was a mere handshake.
Anybody know the jockey on the inside of TG and TC in the clip? It looks like he had a pretty good view of the whole event if he was looking that way - ask him. I'd forgotten about this one.

[KirisClown]

Anybody know the jockey on the inside of TG and TC in the clip?

It's Robbie Davis on Mecke....

[BeatTheChalk]

It is obvious that SOMETHING passed between them ! The jock who
passed the item -- clasped the hand of the other jock .. to make sure that
the item was secure. Dont know why something was passed on the track
tho ?? Strange one. But now...with Youtube.. Yah just nevahhh know :bang:

[gjones6794]

Must be a new way to shake hands. It just didn't catch on.

[TommyCh]

No question he's passing something. The body language of both hands and the double take to make sure it was received... He looked away at first as if "if he drops it, I don't know nuttin' ..." And a low five would be with two open hands. I'll never look at these two guys the same way again. Especially bible thumper Day.

[njcurveball]

So are you guys saying that they would not investigate a horse who finished 2nd if the Jock had something in his hand?

I agree with the body language and the open hand / closed hand pass. I am just curious why he would pass it to another jock rather than just "drop it"?

If Day is caught with it, not only is his horse losing some good money, but he is suspended and his reputation is crap.

Another trick is to simply hand it to the valet with the saddle.

I like the conspiracy theory and I think you guys have a good piece of evidence. Now what would be the motive for Day to be the fall guy?

Jim

[betovernetcapper]

I like the conspiracy theory and I think you guys have a good piece of evidence. Now what would be the motive for Day to be the fall guy?

Jim

That kind of thing happens all the time-Once I was at the Istanbul airport about to go through customs when another passenger offered to carry my briefcase full of heroin. Normal everyday behavior. :)

[PaceAdvantage]

I wasn't bringing the topic back up PA, I was just trying to state how you can find just about anything over on youtube. Sorry about openning old wounds

No need to apologize. When I say I went NUTS, it was a good kind of NUTS...lol

[Greyfox]

That kind of thing happens all the time-Once I was at the Istanbul airport about to go through customs when another passenger offered to carry my briefcase full of heroin. Normal everyday behavior. :)

Exactly. I wished I'd have thought of that one myself. Good stuff.

[dccprez]

That kind of thing happens all the time-Once I was at the Istanbul airport about to go through customs when another passenger offered to carry my briefcase full of heroin. Normal everyday behavior. :)


Sounds like my Prom night...


But seriously...there's no conspiracy and there was nothing illicit going on. Puh-leeze. How stupid do you think that these jockeys are? They ABSOLUTELY KNOW that there are dozens of cameras - TV and photog - on them when they cross the finish line so it would be beyond stupid to try and pass something illegal at that point.

Sure it's fun to imagine something sinister. But let's be realistic.

[KirisClown]

Sure it's fun to imagine something sinister. But let's be realistic.

Unfortunately the semblance of marginal eyesite prevents entering that realm of realism...

[classhandicapper]

This is how it looked to me.

The jock on the left put out his open hand in a seemingly non-suspicious way (possibly to congratulate). The jock on the right had his whip in his right hand so he could not open that hand to do a low five or normal handshake. Instead he more or less put the whole closed hand into the other jock's hand.

Then when the jock on the left pulled his hand away, he still had a closed fist. That's the only thing I saw that was semi-suspicious because it looked like he was holding something. Otherwise he would have opened it again. IMO, that's far from conclusive.

[dccprez]

Unfortunately the semblance of marginal eyesite prevents entering that realm of realism...


...er...wha-hoppen?

"Semblance of marginal eyesight...", "Realm (REALM?!?!)of realism"...

What "realm"? Middle Earth? Narnia?

Puh-leeze. There is NOTHING sinister or illicit taking place. Nothing. Period. Think what you will if it titilates you. But there was nothing illegal happening - unless it was a conspiracy of epic proportions which would not only have to involve the two jockeys but also all of the jockeys behind and around them, the journalists standing on the inner rail who would have a clear view, and anyone else who was watching the end of the race and the gallop out. REMEMBER; Virtually ALL eyes at CD, and certainly on TV, are on the winner after the finish line. It would make ZERO SENSE to try to "pass" something illegal with all of those prying eyes directly on the winner.

...Unless of course you are a 9/11 (amateur) conspiracy theorist OR believe that Kennedy was assassinated by the Cubans/Mob/CIA - in which case the jockeys were clearly trying to conceal the "Magic Run-Fast Beans" that were administered to TG mid-race.

(And Kris - the grandiose reply...I mean, "wow"! Composition 101 here I come; I need a refresher course!)

[098poi]

This is how it looked to me.

The jock on the left put out his open hand in a seemingly non-suspicious way (possibly to congratulate). The jock on the right had his whip in his right hand so he could not open that hand to do a low five or normal handshake. Instead he more or less put the whole closed hand into the other jock's hand.

Then when the jock on the left pulled his hand away, he still had a closed fist. That's the only thing I saw that was semi-suspicious because it looked like he was holding something. Otherwise he would have opened it again. IMO, that's far from conclusive.

This seems the most likely explanation. Riding a horse, holding a whip, a high or low five will probabaly not look normal. If something illicit was going on it was carried out in the Maxwell Smart school of undercover. In the biggest race in the world, after you win because of the secret X-Device, I will open my hand really wide and everyone will think we're slappin each other five. You pass me the device and I'll destroy it later. Sound like a plan Chief?!

[KirisClown]

Puh-leeze. There is NOTHING sinister or illicit taking place. Nothing. Period. Think what you will if it titilates you. But there was nothing illegal happening - unless it was a conspiracy of epic proportions which would not only have to involve the two jockeys but also all of the jockeys behind and around them, the journalists standing on the inner rail who would have a clear view, and anyone else who was watching the end of the race and the gallop out. REMEMBER; Virtually ALL eyes at CD, and certainly on TV, are on the winner after the finish line. It would make ZERO SENSE to try to "pass" something illegal with all of those prying eyes directly on the winner.

...Unless of course you are a 9/11 (amateur) conspiracy theorist OR believe that Kennedy was assassinated by the Cubans/Mob/CIA - in which case the jockeys were clearly trying to conceal the "Magic Run-Fast Beans" that were administered to TG mid-race.



I appreciate where you're coming from, and logically you'd be right... It's the argument everyone has used to defend the video, since the begining. I guess it's the easiest one to use...

But, Ive seen the video 1000s of times... a video much more clear than the one on youtube... There is something there, what it is, I don't know.. but it's no shadow or optical illusion.

Makes no difference now anyway... it's a dead issue that will never be resolved.

[BIG RED]

You're right Mike, :bang:

should have not done this, getting huge feedback on not what I meant

[KirisClown]

A less grainy video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIAKRCP-C1o

[PaceAdvantage]

You're right Mike, :bang:

should have not done this, getting huge feedback on not what I meant

Care to elaborate? Whatcha mean, "huge feedback" on NOT what you meant?

[PaceAdvantage]

A less grainy video...

If ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, can look at that video you just posted and honestly say to themselves NOTHING was passed, well then, I'd be absolutely stunned.

In frame by frame, it is so damning....

Let me ask a question.....these Churchill/Kentucky officials who supposedly "investigated" the non "Hand Off".....are these the same officials who plain "forgot" to administer a post-race urine test on Holy Bull the year before?

:faint:

[BIG RED]

50 posts about the video , my point was about youtube and what you can find over there, horseracing wise.

Should I put up the Funny Cide 'incident' :D

[Trax21]

If ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, can look at that video you just posted and honestly say to themselves NOTHING was passed, well then, I'd be absolutely stunned.

In frame by frame, it is so damning....

Let me ask a question.....these Churchill/Kentucky officials who supposedly "investigated" the non "Hand Off".....are these the same officials who plain "forgot" to administer a post-race urine test on Holy Bull the year before?

:faint:

I can't say that nothing passed but I do question the video and what we think we're seeing.

In the first, original, grainy video, the blackness and shape of the object appears unnatural to me. If you stop the video around the 11 and 12 second mark, the object looks quite strange particularly just before it disappears behind the horse's head.

In the second video, I wonder how the dark object can appear that way if the receiving jockey's hand is closed and his fingers are wrapped around it. It appears that his hand is closed, and if so, his fingers should be around the object and we shouldn't be seeing so much of the questionable part.

Also, how was a (large?) object carried with his whip and then passed so smoothly?

The whole thing just does not look natural to me.

[PaceAdvantage]

Trax,

I would agree with you, IF I hadn't seen the same exact thing in the ORIGINAL ABC feed which I recorded as it happened in 1995. I still have it.....thus, the video you're seeing on YouTube has not been altered in any way that I can tell, except that it is in slow-mo, and it has been reduced in quality in order to fit on YouTube.

[PaceAdvantage]

50 posts about the video , my point was about youtube and what you can find over there, horseracing wise.

I'm confused then....why would you title your thread "Don't get mad" if you weren't looking for comments about the video?

[PlanB]

umm. I never saw that vid & guess what, if he isnt handing over SomeThing, I'm blind enough to get a disabled parking permit.