Dick Schmidt-Pace Makes the Race

[banacek]

I notice that someone has "Pace Makes the Race" on ebay. And the seller calls it "very rear". Dick, sounds like a lawsuit!

[GameTheory]

The seller is a member here. I think I've bought some stuff from him before. He's never learned to spell "rare" -- most of his auction listings describe his items as "rear".

[befuddlem]

I haven't got that book yet. If I don't win the auction, is there another place I can buy it?

[PlanB]

Why would you need another book on pace? The book may be brilliant but the data is less so.

[befuddlem]

I am developing my own spreadheet program, and every book contains something I can use.

[PlanB]

oh that explains it.

[44PACE]

The book may be brilliant but the data is less so.

Sounds like a contradiction, how can a book be brilliant yet its data not?

This is my all time favorite book on handicapping, it contains everything that you need to succeed at the races.It goes beyond the TPR numbers which are superior to any other rating method and covers everything from money management to track profiles with many many examples.The book helps you think about new ideas it expands your handicapping mind.

[PlanB]

hey, 44PACE, I have 2 copies of that book (don't ask) but I've never read it. Just from recall from my racing bookcase, the author was huey _________? It was a small book I think? was it better than Brohammer's?

[46zilzal]

hey, 44PACE, I have 2 copies of that book (don't ask) but I've never read it. Just from recall from my racing bookcase, the author was huey _________? It was a small book I think? was it better than Brohammer's?
MAHL, very good one and probably the first to seriously look at energy distribution

[Greyfox]

Just from recall from my racing bookcase, the author was huey _________? It was a small book I think? was it better than Brohammer's?



Huey Mahl Race is Pace

[redhorse]

Hi Guy’s
The copy of Pace Makes the Race that is up on e-bay is the very RARE? HARDBOUND COPY of the 2nd edition, in mint Brand New condition. This is the edition with all of Doc Sartins and Mike Pizzola’s chapters and not Dick’s Brilliant soft cover edition. I am cretin if you tried to find a copy of the hardbound 2nd edition in this condition, you would also call it REAR or RARE.

[The Judge]

I have a well used copy signed by Howard, Dick and Tom no Pizzola yet. Its well worn with a copyright date of 1991. Is this the 1st edition? I'm sure I bought it as soon as it came out.

I was unaware of any other editions.

[The Judge]

Just checked the garage and I had a copy of the 2nd ed. it has a 1991 date also but the jacket is changed. At the bottom of 2nd it has a white banner that reads ,Rated 9 1/2 by Phillips Racing Newsletter "The highest rating we"ve ever given!".

Also the inside copyright page was changed a little the "O Henry House Publishers is in Different print other then that if all seems to be the same. My 2nd ed is in very very good condition.

[Dick Schmidt]

Rare huh? Well, I suppose it is. I guess that it all depends on if you want to collect books or use them. The information inside is the same no matter which edition you read or what shape it is in.

Anyway, the second (trade paperback) is still available. My son has gone into the book selling business on Amazon (some business model. I buy the books at full price and he sells them for what he can get and keeps the money) and has them listed for $20. These are new books and I'll sign them if you want.
As for their relevance today, I can tell you that a lot of people are still making a living with TPR numbers. They just keep on working, and as long as most people believe they don't work, or can't work, or have stopped working, then they will continue to work. People who criticize books without reading them are morons, but then again, we need a lot of dumb money at the track. If everyone used TPR, it wouldn't work, but very few are willing to do the work required to win with this or any other system.

Dick

It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.

[44PACE]

hey, 44PACE, I have 2 copies of that book (don't ask) but I've never read it. Just from recall from my racing bookcase, the author was huey _________? It was a small book I think? was it better than Brohammer's?

Brohammers book is good, but Pace makes the Race fit the way I play the races better. I just couldn't grasp a 54.02 vrs a 53.65 other than the first is larger and faster. My brain goes tilt when I look at more than 2 things at one time. Using this book and its rating method was the first time I became a profitable player.
Before Pace Makes the Race and TPR I purchased every book, video tape and almost every computer program, I lost money with them all. Now I use this simple method and know that this year and all years to come I will make money at the races.

44PACE , I took this name becouse in the book Pace Makes the Race 44= 100 points it is simple like me and it works.

[46zilzal]

it is very difficult to "split hairs" when using velocity in absolute measurements

[shoelessjoe]

Dick,Was the reason Doc Sartin took the book off the market because he didnt agree with things that were written in there?

[Dick Schmidt]

SJ,


No, the reason he took it off the market was because it was cutting into the sales of his expensive handicapping programs. He became concerned when Tom Hambleton easily won a race that none of the advanced programs could get at a workshop in Saratoga. He asked Tom to make TPR less powerful, but he refused. Soon after that, the book (and Tom) was no longer flavor of the month.

Tom did some more work on TPR and we wanted to share it, so we did a second edition in paperback. Those numbers are still going strong.
Dick

How can there be self-help "groups"?

[Lefty]

Dick, wasn't the orig forced off the market by a lawsuit instigated against Doc by Pizzolla and Doc lost?

[shoelessjoe]

Well if what you say is true that would explain why Doc in a seminar tape was saying how TPR numbers are not a good way of looking at how a race will be run.

[njcurveball]

I think people tend to view Doc Sartin like Babe Ruth.

From what I know of him and the group (and I have met and spoken with lots of them over time) he was more like a great GM.

He got lots of brilliant minds together and promoted their work. Because of his people skills and marketing skills many of these ideas have become mainstream.

However, as he said many times, it takes a certain type of mindset to grasp all of the numbers.

Doc even went a bit overboard with trying to translate these numbers visually. Finally getting his vision of "horses running" with a program called Thoro-mation.

Since we were all brought up in this country with 100 being good thanks to our school training, we embrace that scale.

What good is it having exact velocity numbers if you cannot tell a horse with a first fraction of 60 is going to be caught by a horse with a third fraction of 55?

I saw many people win with TPR that couldn't even get close with other more advanced programs for that reason alone.

Jim

[Dick Schmidt]

Lefty:

No, it wasn't. Pizzolla did sue Howard, but over something else. I was very careful when I edited the book and signed the contracts that each of us retained all rights (other than first book publication rights of course) to our own work. That is why the author of each chapter is identified. The book was complete and in galleys when Howard let Michael add some stuff. He had little or no influence over the rest of it. I think he sued Howard over some ideas in Energy, but I'm not sure. I wasn't a party to the suit. Howard's attorney tied Michael in knots and the suit went away. No judgment was ever entered that I am aware of.

Dick

If by some fiat I had to restrict all this writing to one sentence, this is the one I would choose: The summit of Mt. Everest is marine limestone.

- John McPhee Basin and Range

[shoelessjoe]

Dick,Why did you end up leaving the Sartin group?It seems you left pretty abruptly.One FU issue you were still the editor and then the next one you were gone and Spencer Toner took over.I have to say in all due respect that the Fu's were better while you were there.I guess thats because the old pirco guys were still there.Doc did do one heck of a job though getting guys like yourself,Purdy,Hat,Brohammer etc all together.It was like an all star team.

[Dick Schmidt]

SLJ,

WhenI first joined PIRCO, the original yellow Phase III manual, which was the only one available at the time, had a list on the back cover of the original 14 PIRCO members. Five years later all but one had "betrayed" Howard and been expelled. Most of the time, the betrayal consisted of asking for a share of the profits that had been promised when the organization was formed. Might as well ask why Stalin's Politburo had such a high turnover. Simple answer: paranoia.

I also think that Howard's deteriorating health had a great deal to do with it. As he got sicker, he started making snap judgments and arbitrarily tossed people for little or no reason. Bob Cochran was eliminated because he insisted on flying on a certain airline when he flew to a seminar to perform gratis. He threw Bob Purdy out for offering to let people at a seminal have a free copy of his new Synergism program, even though Bob had told Howard before hand that he was going to do it and Howard said OK. Changed his mind while sitting in the bar (another contributing factor I think) and two hours later was cussing Bob out for giving away "his" (Howard's) money. I watched it happen.

As for why I left, I don't want to go into too many specifics, but it was much the same thing. I mentioned I had spoken with Michael Pizzolla, who had been banished a couple of months before, and was promptly accused of betrayal and consorting with the enemy. I'm an easy going sort of guy most of the time (really!), but I don't let anyone run my life or tell me who I can or can't befriend.

The tragic part is that had Howard just relaxed and not tried to be such a control freak, insisting that every idea be attributed to him and completely unwilling to share the spotlight, we'd have gone on running PIRCO for years, glorified him as the founding father and provided a fine living for his family. Today he would be the godfather of pace instead of a bitter old man who won't see anyone or even talk on the phone. Too bad. I was sorry to see it end and still remain in contact with many of the good friends I made back then, but then again, by the time I left, it was already over.

Dick

"You cannot force me to agree with you. You can force me to act as though I agree with you -- but then you'll have to watch your back. All the time." - El Neil

[betchatoo]

Dick:

Have you ever thought of writing a book on the rise and fall of the Sartin years and methodology? There are a great many horse players who would be fascinated by the story.

[46zilzal]

a simple story about the fear of plagerism.

[betchatoo]

a simple story about the fear of plagerism.

The fact that politically we are often on the same side not withstanding, it sometimes amazes me how you have all the answers. However, in this case, it was Dick who was the insider and I would much rather hear from him.

[46zilzal]

simply stating in a few words what I heard as a long standing Sartin follower who was around since almost the beginning.

[shanta]

SLJ,

The tragic part is that had Howard just relaxed and not tried to be such a control freak, insisting that every idea be attributed to him and completely unwilling to share the spotlight, we'd have gone on running PIRCO for years, glorified him as the founding father and provided a fine living for his family. Today he would be the godfather of pace instead of a bitter old man who won't see anyone or even talk on the phone. Too bad. I was sorry to see it end and still remain in contact with many of the good friends I made back then, but then again, by the time I left, it was already over.

Dick


Dick,
Everyone makes mistakes in their lives. Everyone also has problems they have to deal with. From financial to drug/alchohol to illness etc etc.

The bottle,paranoia and the family stuff are all well known. Howard also did a lot of good for some folks. Good and bad in all of us man.

Fwiw Howard is hanging in there and does talk to 2 people I know by phone often. He reads the Racing Form a couple of days a week to keep busy and has just finished writing a review of "The Hat's" new matchup book which Jim will post up on Binder's website in the next couple of days.

Jim just read me the review over the phone an hour ago and of course he says good thinigs. They have been friends for decades.

For anyone interested Jim is doing great healthwise and that in itself is a miracle considering the wicked battle he had with the cancer. He goes to the simul joint a few times a month for fun and when he is "on" he still does his "Voodoo" ;) . He has NEVER said a bad word about ANYONE involved with Pirco and I speak with him every day. Just not who he is.

Take care,
Richie

[46zilzal]

The match up is a great concept. It has a myriad of applications

[njcurveball]

Dick:

Have you ever thought of writing a book on the rise and fall of the Sartin years and methodology? There are a great many horse players who would be fascinated by the story.


I think it would be amazing to read more of this. I have found in this and many other forums just bringing up the name Sartin will yield enough stories to make the thread a worthwhile read and re-read.

I had the great opportunity to meet and break bread with Sartin, Bradshaw, Brohamer, and a few others. Even though I had been going to the track for many years, it was like being a kid sitting on the bench with Derek Jeter.

I found them all to be helpful and knowledgable. I had thought it would be the first of many but it wasn't long after that people starting leaving the group. From my perspective, the release of Thoromation was when the group "Jumped the Shark".

I also canceled my subscription to the Follow UP once the name Schmidt was no longer listed in it.

Jim

[Dick Schmidt]

"Have you ever thought of writing a book on the rise and fall of the Sartin years and methodology?"


No.

Howard probably helped more people than anyone else ever has in racing. Let's let that, rather than any problems the arose be his legacy. No one is perfect, we must weigh them in the balance. On the whole, I'd say the good outweighed the other.


Dick

What do you do when you see an endangered animal eating an endangered plant?

[andicap]

Nice post Dick.

Plus I seriously doubt the book would sell much. WHo else, besides some hard-core types like us, would buy it? Unless someone with a big name like Bryan Burrough or Michael Lewis, dug into it and put it in a broader, worldlier context.

[betchatoo]

Nice post Dick.

Plus I seriously doubt the book would sell much. WHo else, besides some hard-core types like us, would buy it? Unless someone with a big name like Bryan Burrough or Michael Lewis, dug into it and put it in a broader, worldlier context.
I don't agree. I think most racing fans (and we are legion) are aware of the influence that Sartin had on the racing world and that many would pay to read his story. I'm not expecting a hatchet job (despite his self-proclaimed "surly" title, I've never seen any of that in Dick's writing or posts), just an insider's guide to how it all came together and then fell apart. I would expect it to emphasize how much good the Doc did for the game and how much influence his work (and those around him) still has in today's game. I think it would be a fascinating study into that area of handicapping.

[JimG]

I would expect it to emphasize how much good the Doc did for the game and how much influence his work (and those around him) still has in today's game. I think it would be a fascinating study into that area of handicapping.

It is hard NOT to find handicapping software that at least part of it was not influenced by ideas that were popular under the Sartin Methodology.

[Tom]

Cool news, Richie - the MU II is very good. Mine came and it was worth the wait. Be interesting to read Howard's review, too.

[44PACE]

Cool news, Richie - the MU II is very good. Mine came and it was worth the wait. Be interesting to read Howard's review, too.

How do you get a copy of MU 11 ?

[shanta]

How do you get a copy of MU 11 ?

44Pace
go to bindfold.com - then click on pace and cap - then click on Jim's book and picture for ordering info

Richie

[nagwa]

shanta, cannot find link to book page..thanks

[shanta]

shanta, cannot find link to book page..thanks

nagwa
check your Pm I don;t want to post the link here with these spider things around man.
ok
Richie

[Richard]

I purchased the very rear book($29and change)even though I already have a paperback copy.Looking forward to going through it.

[44PACE]

44Pace
go to bindfold.com - then click on pace and cap - then click on Jim's book and picture for ordering info

Richie

Thanks, I found the site.

[Richard]

Dick,
In the paperback edition you mention that there was a program available for computing TPR.Do you know if it is still available?
Richard

[spilparc]

Dick,
In the paperback edition you mention that there was a program available for computing TPR.Do you know if it is still available?
Richard

Dick I have a question. In the second edition of PMR in what way did the TPR numbers change?

[JustRalph]

Dick, Great Avatar! Now tell me how to get a copy of the book............

[bigmack]

Capt. Surly using an avatar, and then, one of a discharging firearm?

I'll be working from the shelter I built in the mid-70's until further notice.

[Dick Schmidt]

Three for the price of one:

1) Yes, I still have a couple of programs that will do TPR numbers. They are state of the art about 1994. They run under DOS, require manual input of each paceline and only do one race at a time with no model or profile keeping. Look up my e-mail address and send me a regular e-mail and I'll send you a copy.

Personally I haven't used them in years. I have completely switched over to Bob Purdy's Synergism when I want to look at TPRs. It runs under Windows, downloads all 10 pacelines for each horse in the blink of an eye and does a lot of the tedious work of keeping a model and profile for you. Best of all, it is free. You merely pay for the data downloads. You can take a look at www.synergism-sdp.com (http://www.synergism-sdp.com). (I recommend this program all the time. I don't get any kickbacks or fees, something I'm going to have to talk to Bob about).


2) How did the TPR rating charts that are the heart and soul of the method change between the first and second edition? Beats me. Tom and I carefully divided up the work on the book: he did the hard work of hammering out the numbers and making them work, I handled the larger overall conceptual work and typesetting. In truth, I'd have to look and compare the two charts line by line. Any changes were subtle, not major, and the first edition numbers should still work OK. You might want to reread my chapter on "Good Enough Numbers" to get a better insight on the work we invested in improving the numbers.


3) Like that avatar? I just recently stole it from somewhere and though it was cool. I've never used one before and it seemed to fit my mood at the moment. I post on a couple of gun sites and mostly use it there. I stuck it in PA on a lark and will keep it until it starts to annoy me.


Dick

"Whoever said the pen is mightier than the sword obviously never encountered automatic weapons." - General Douglas Macarthur

[Dallas4lr]

Dick Schmidt,


I am fairly new to the site and have found many of your post very informative. I especially find your conversations concerning the synergism software quite interesting.

I initially discoverd synergism software back in 2003 and did a surface evaluation of the software and had some discussions with Bob. Unfortunately I decided that I really didnt play enough to justify the cost of the data downloads.

Since that time I have bounced from Trackmaster(which I started using the handheld in the early 90's), to All Ways, and from there to TP analyzer. Now I'm evaluating Synergism for the 3rd time and will make the jump despite the cost. Currently I am handicapping demo races and transfering a few of the factors form the winning horses in each race into an excel database. Hopefully this will assist me in developing a strategy using synergism for exacta's and pick 3's; Which brings me to my question.

You made a post a few years back stating that you where developing an exacta strategy using synergism. I think the post stated that you were looking at using 3 horses over 5 horses in a exacta. My question is did you ever complete the system, and if not why? And would you mind posting a detailed explanation of your strategy for exactas using synergism even if its incomplete?

My analysis of the software just exudes exacta and exotic potential. I certainly believe that seeing where you were headed with software will be invaluable to me in the development of my system.



Thanks
Carl

[Dick Schmidt]

Dick Schmidt,


I am fairly new to the site and have found many of your post very informative. I especially find your conversations concerning the synergism software quite interesting.

I initially discovered synergism software back in 2003 and did a surface evaluation of the software and had some discussions with Bob. Unfortunately I decided that I really didn't play enough to justify the cost of the data downloads.


I always wonder at people who say data is too expensive. Is losing with inferior data a better investment? Mostly I write from the perspective of a professional player. If you just want this to be a hobby, then type in data from the Racing Form, enjoy the track and smell the horse poop. Have a good time and pay for your program betting. If you are a professional and the money you earn is important to your lifestyle, then pay for the tools you need. By the way, if you are a consistent looser, you aren't either of these; you are a sheep waiting to be fleeced. Stop betting and spending money until you learn the game.


Since that time I have bounced from Trackmaster(which I started using the handheld in the early 90's), to All Ways, and from there to TP analyzer. Now I'm evaluating Synergism for the 3rd time and will make the jump despite the cost. Currently I am handicapping demo races and transfering a few of the factors form the winning horses in each race into an excel database. Hopefully this will assist me in developing a strategy using synergism for exacta's and pick 3's; Which brings me to my question.


Before you start trying to learn how to improve the program, why don't you try to learn how to use it in the first place? Most bets require you to select the winning horse; start there.


You made a post a few years back stating that you where developing an exacta strategy using synergism. I think the post stated that you were looking at using 3 horses over 5 horses in a exacta. My question is did you ever complete the system, and if not why? And would you mind posting a detailed explanation of your strategy for exactas using synergism even if its incomplete?


No idea. I seem to remember playing around with some mechanical betting schemes for a while, but I don't think I ever found any that produced consistent results. I didn't bet many exotics, just win for the most part.


My analysis of the software just exudes exacta and exotic potential. I certainly believe that seeing where you were headed with software will be invaluable to me in the development of my system.


I doubt it. We are different people with different skill levels and mindsets. I really don't think that trying to mimic another bettor is a good idea, even if he is a strong player. I know I never did much winning until I stopped trying to be Tom Brohamer and started being Dick Schmidt. I wasn't as good as Tom, but I was a better Dick than I was a Tom imitation.


Thanks
Carl


Dick

Junk is something you've kept for years and throw away three weeks
before you need it.

[bigmack]

Now I'm evaluating Synergism for the 3rd time and will make the jump despite the cost. Currently I am handicapping demo races and transfering a few of the factors form the winning horses in each race into an excel database.
The custom screen in Syn offers a player to load in as many facors as they wish within the confines of your monitor. All fields are sortable within the custom screen which makes Syn one handy piece of software.

Keep an eye on what factors are of import within the specifics of a race at differing tracks. There's a pile of clues that can point you in the right direction but as any good software offering, it ain't no black box. Interpret the data and follow the paths that yield winners.

[Dallas4lr]

Sorry,


I wasnt trying to improve the program nor offend anyone. My only reason for using excel was so I could track certain factors which aren't available in the custom screen like STP and POR. Also the track profiles doesnt keep records of the SSR and PSR of the top 3 horses. Just wanted to track some of the other data that the programs doesnt to determine long term impact.

Wow, IMHO I never stated that I was attempting to mimic anyone, just get some insight from others that have used the software on strengths and weaknesses. I'm a believeer that you can look at what someone else has done and gain some insight and/or totally new direction from others.


Sorry that my post was taken the wrong way
Carl

[Dallas4lr]

Bigmack,


I do thank you for your courteous reply, and insights.



Carl

[highnote]

Beethoven said, "The greatest things are simple." That's why I like TPR numbers and "The Matchup".

The good ol' KISS principle.

[Murph]

The custom screen in Syn offers a player to load in as many facors as they wish within the confines of your monitor. All fields are sortable within the custom screen which makes Syn one handy piece of software.

Keep an eye on what factors are of import within the specifics of a race at differing tracks. There's a pile of clues that can point you in the right direction but as any good software offering, it ain't no black box. Interpret the data and follow the paths that yield winners."Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" Bullwinkle cirica 1964

[PaceAdvantage]

"Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!" Bullwinkle cirica 1964

I came quite close to deleting this post, and probably will in the future. A reply of this kind adds nothing to the discussion, and will only lead to the swelling of defensive feelings and subsequent flame wars. Perhaps a more intelligent response explaining why you feel bigmack's thinking will yield little more than random results and losses might have been a better way to go....

[Lefty]

Dick, in the 2nd edition of the book you guys changed the FFR numbers a leetle bit.

[bigmack]

I came quite close to deleting this post, and probably will in the future.
No worries PA. Murph runs around actually side swiping software offerings such as Syn, HTR & HSH when the fact remains that if any of them were put next to ThoroStats it would be like comparing 3+3 to quantum physics. Just a darn shame that a heck of a guy like TBoles has this guy as a rep.

[banacek]

No worries PA. Murph runs around actually side swiping software offerings such as Syn, HTR & HSH when the fact remains that if any of them were put next to ThoroStats it would be like comparing 3+3 to quantum physics. Just a darn shame that a heck of a guy like TBoles has this guy as a rep.

And so PA warns the poster that he almost deleted a post, as it could start flaming and guess what the flaming still starts - well PA you did your job, sometimes you just can't win. I honestly don't know how you put up with some of this stuff!

(P.S. you said any of Syn, HTR, & HSH put next to Thorostats would be like comparing 3+3 to quantum physics - I'm guessing that you meant the other order!)

[PaceAdvantage]

Yeah, I know. A more covert approach is in order....

[Murph]

I came quite close to deleting this post, and probably will in the future. A reply of this kind adds nothing to the discussion, and will only lead to the swelling of defensive feelings and subsequent flame wars. Perhaps a more intelligent response explaining why you feel bigmack's thinking will yield little more than random results and losses might have been a better way to go....Having hundreds of factors available as indicators of performance can be very hepful in the hands of an experienced user of a particular software. That user may have had an opportunity to learn which of these factors might be most relevant.

Just having a "pile of clues" on the screen does little to help decide which one is relevant to the race in question. Trying to guess which factor may work will too often lead to pulling out the rhino instead of the rabbit.

This is not an attempt to descredit any software or method of handicapping. Decisions still must be made before the race begins. A new user is swimming with sharks if they can't logicaly seperate and define the relevant factors for a particular race.

Murph

Reagrding my last post: "I don't care who you are, now that's funny." Larry the Cable Guy cirica 2003

[Dallas4lr]

Having hundreds of factors available as indicators of performance can be very hepful in the hands of an experienced user of a particular software. That user may have had an opportunity to learn which of these factors might be most relevant.

Just having a "pile of clues" on the screen does little to help decide which one is relevant to the race in question. Trying to guess which factor may work will too often lead to pulling out the rhino instead of the rabbit.

This is not an attempt to descredit any software or method of handicapping. Decisions still must be made before the race begins. A new user is swimming with sharks if they can't logicaly seperate and define the relevant factors for a particular race.

Murph

Reagrding my last post: "I don't care who you are, now that's funny." Larry the Cable Guy cirica 2003


This definitely explains my feelings and position. Unfortunately the Synergism forum has been dead for years, and I nearly got my head chopped off posing a few questions.

Checking out HTR now, all around their appears to be way more positive support.

Carl

[bigmack]

Bigmack, I do thank you for your courteous reply, and insights.

Just having a "pile of clues" on the screen does little to help decide which one is relevant to the race in question. Trying to guess which factor may work will too often lead to pulling out the rhino instead of the rabbit.

The original poster got the point just fine. Anyone who knows anything about HDW products knows that you get back data to test factors that are more fomidable than others, thus, taking some the guesswork out of the puzzle and enhancing the ability to yank a wrascaly wabbit. Naturally, those who know little to nothing of these software offerings and have agendas of their own, ASSume otherwise.

[Tom]

Dallas,
If you are a velocity/pace guy, you will like the new MaxVelocity program from HTR. You have several options of models built it, you can even ask for a modle that matches the race you are working - and decide how for to go with filters. There or other models you can use, and each factor gets a rating as to how predicitve it is.

Download the supporting douments and ask questions - lots of help available.

Good luck, and welcome to PA!

[46zilzal]

Get ONE PROGRAM, learn everything about it. Limit confusion and keep the one and none others.

[bigmack]

Get ONE PROGRAM, learn everything about it. Limit confusion and keep the one and none others.
Yo 46, What's that blue screen program you use and post numbers from every now and then, homegrown?

[Tom]

Get ONE PROGRAM, learn everything about it. Limit confusion and keep the one and none others.

No confusion - I can juggle more than one ball at a time.
MaxVel is very in depth version of the velocity part of HTR. Goes hand in hand with the main program. Like Steak and eggs.

[Dallas4lr]

Dallas,
If you are a velocity/pace guy, you will like the new MaxVelocity program from HTR. You have several options of models built it, you can even ask for a modle that matches the race you are working - and decide how for to go with filters. There or other models you can use, and each factor gets a rating as to how predicitve it is.

Download the supporting douments and ask questions - lots of help available.

Good luck, and welcome to PA!

Thanks Tom,

I downloaded the maxvel program, just have to put it all together.

Carl

[46zilzal]

Yo 46, What's that blue screen program you use and post numbers from every now and then, homegrown?
I am the moderator or a 350 member Sartin website and contributor to another. What program do you think that one might be?

[ryesteve]

I am the moderator or a 350 member Sartin website and contributor to another. What program do you think that one might be?
You say that like we're all supposed to know your resume' :rolleyes:

[Museful]

Speculator V1.60. Check Binder's site (bindfold . com / forums)

[Murph]

This definitely explains my feelings and position. Unfortunately the Synergism forum has been dead for years, and I nearly got my head chopped off posing a few questions.

Checking out HTR now, all around their appears to be way more positive support.

CarlThank you, Carl.

HTR is a very nice offering and the improvements that are made are quite useful to getting the program working for you more quickly than it could without them. KM understands this and demonstrates his commitment with the improvements Tom and others have mentioned. The HTR users who post here are always cordial and they know their stuff on horse race handicapping inside and outside of their program.

I certainly wish you the best with your handicapping progression. That's why I hate to see a misguided pitchman trying to steer you off a cliff.

Murph

[Lefty]

Mack, that bluescreen prgm zilly posts is either Validator or Speculator and my guess is one of the Validator ones. Both good prgms, by the way.

[bigmack]

Mack, that bluescreen prgm zilly posts is either Validator or Speculator and my guess is one of the Validator ones. Both good prgms, by the way.
Is that the fact Zilly?


Carl,

I'm glad my pm's to you in regards to checking out HTR have proved worthwhile for you. Avoid free offerings as with the saying, you get what you pay for.

__________________________________
Q. Why do Smurphs Giggle when they Skip through the forest?
A. Because the grass tickles their Balls!! circa 2007

[46zilzal]

Is that the fact Zilly?



Lefty is behind the times or he would realize that Validator no longer works.

I was one of the original testers of the program Speculator and continue to use it exclusively.

[PaceAdvantage]

I'm glad my pm's to you in regards to checking out HTR have proved worthwhile for you. Avoid free offerings as with the saying, you get what you pay for.

Really? Not that this is the thread, but what free offering are you referring to here? Thorostats? Did I miss the post where you reviewed the product?

[bigmack]

Heavens no. I wouldn't want to say anything negative about an authorized advertiser or even about a new book that's available from a poster. I was referring to: http://www.ozracetools.com/modules.php?name=Ratings_To_Price

[Dallas4lr]

Thanks Bigmack,


You have been very helpful and I appreciate it, I certainly believe that moving to HTR was excellant advice.


Carl

[Murph]

No worries PA. Murph runs around actually side swiping software offerings such as Syn, HTR & HSH when the fact remains that if any of them were put next to ThoroStats it would be like comparing 3+3 to quantum physics. Just a darn shame that a heck of a guy like TBoles has this guy as a rep.If this isn't a negative post directed squarely at an authorized advertiser, I would like to know what is!

I understand that my posting style is sometimes awkward and they may have an effect I did not totally intend. I have really tried to be better with keeping any negative conotations out of my posts and I have attempted to mend fences with those I may have offended.

I certainly do not post strings of random numbers, ask to make chit chat about avatars or play games with mundane quotes in the handicapping forums. All things that my detractor seems to enjoy doing whether they are on the topic of horseracing and handicapping or not.

If I have a question or comment on other products it is often assumed I am pursuing a sales agenda - but we don't even sell anything yet. Our site is not full of ads for any product and I have never suggested that any one elses' work in the handicapping field is inferior or irrelevant.

I have questioned the complexity and the need for such involvement and I don't see where that in itself is wrong. It is nothing I would not speak directly to a person and I have no shame for advocating a simpler method.

It works for me.

Murph

[PlanB]

Murph, why is it I still don't know what Thorostats does? Is it like a restaurant with an unpublished phone number? So take a few paragraphs & tell us.

[bigmack]

If this isn't a negative post directed squarely at an authorized advertiser, I would like to know what is!
Well this is officially inane and boorish. Hell, if you want to enter the thread and have a little joust at least put a cut in your strut and glide in your stride. Conducting banter back & forth with the clump of an old pair of boots on is too uneventful for my taste. I get into it with a few cats around here and I know you have as well, even with Mr Sunshine, Tom.

I know what you mean about mundane quotes. I need to step it up a bit and use Yogi Bear material.

In any event, I'm outro with any further repartee with you Murph. Keep it simple, and laugh every now & then. It'll keep you young.

[PlanB]

I got to remind you of the Statue of Limitations which in NET TIME is 5 mins. TYPE FAST. What does ThoroStats do uniquely?

[Murph]

I got to remind you of the Statue of Limitations which in NET TIME is 5 mins. TYPE FAST. What does ThoroStats do uniquely?You are all welcome to visit our website (http://www.thorostats.com/) and see what it does for yourself. If you are truly interested you can find more information about it there.

Thanks for your comments.

Murph

[PlanB]

I'm sure I speak for this Planet when I say, 'How Informative' you are. It's something I just never thought of, go check out the website.

[Murph]

I'm sure I speak for this Planet when I say, 'How Informative' you are. It's something I just never thought of, go check out the website.What are you, the pinch hitter?

Isn't it bad enough that I've helped destroy a perfectly good handicaping thread with my original comment into it? On behalf of anyone still reading this sad string, I am not looking to prolong the misery, OK?

[Lefty]

Lefty is behind the times or he would realize that Validator no longer works.

I was one of the original testers of the program Speculator and continue to use it exclusively.
You kidding? I said it was one or tuther. Val still works, speed ratings changed a little but val still works, by gosh. I am trying Spec 160 and using same Pl's not a big big diff btween Spec and Val.

[46zilzal]

You kidding? I said it was one or tuther. Val still works, speed ratings changed a little but val still works, by gosh. I am trying Spec 160 and using same Pl's not a big big diff btween Spec and Val.
keep promoting that fanatasy so more people will use that outdated one.....

[Lefty]

Not promoting anything, zilly. Spec the uptodate one, for sure. But Val does still work.

[PaceAdvantage]

Heavens no. I wouldn't want to say anything negative about an authorized advertiser or even about a new book that's available from a poster. I was referring to: http://www.ozracetools.com/modules.php?name=Ratings_To_Price

Don't be an ass. You can say anything negative you'd like about any advertiser on here, as long as you're not making stuff up....but they also have the right to respond in kind....

I was being serious before....have you tried Thorostats?

[bigmack]

As an inquisitve fellow I kick the tires of many offerings. Heck, I even spin em around the block and roll em on the freeway. Do I know Thorostats? Yes. In fact several months ago TBoles (the main man of Tstats) was posting selections and I complemented him on his program and inquired about some of his power numbers as I had been tracking the program for a while and was impressed with a few things that I saw. You know how many other people around here have looked over the program and publicly complemented the proprietor? Zero. At least none in the time that I've been here.

Without going into great detail suffice it to say that I had several issues in reviewing the program including their not incorporating variants on their numbers, having only one line of numbers and power numbers that had a more than nebulous generation.

I wasn't pimping the program simply because Murph is the way that he is. I have experience with the program and still stand by my assessment that when compared to most products from HDW, it's rather one dimensional and found it completely laughable that he would question the merits of a program like Synergism.

There are some that are students of the game and like to turn over every rock they come in contact with. Take a guy like Tom. He's been in the game for decades and is still is a consummate student. Sure he uses HTR & cj's figures (some of the best in the biz) but he still looks into Moss numbers and still gets excited about new add ons such as MaxVel & others. It's inspiring to know that a guy can know so much of the game and still be willing to look at new entities.

I asked Zilly earlier in this thread what program he uses. I'll probably drive that around the block a few times as well. Heck, there's some great stuff out there. Dave's HSH, R2's Handicapping OS. Guys that find $120+-/mo too much should probably just buy 8 lotto tickets a week and retire from racing.

You wouldn't know it by some of my clowning around here but I take my game very seriously and work my ass off everyday to be a consistently winning player. I have little empathy for those that don't put the required work into the game and even less for those that lack the resourcefullness necessary for being a profitable player.

My involvement in this here thread has come to a conclusion.


As for the authorized advertiser comment, come on Mike, an ass? More like a disingenuous goof. :lol:

All the Best.

[socantra]

Not promoting anything, zilly. Spec the uptodate one, for sure. But Val does still work.

There is no question that Validator has been somewhat crippled by Trackmaster's changing the scale of their speed ratings. The built in adjustments have been doubled. .

The key to using Validator NOW is to take a great deal of care when selecting pacelines not to use lines with a large variant. The smaller the variant the better.

If you use the <F2> key to get to the original pacelines screen when selecting contenders, the TV is listed in the far right column. Keep it under 10 when possible and be very suspicious of any line with a variant over 15.

This is not a knock on Speculator, but they do different things. Validator is the last of the energy programs. I believe Guy designed Speculator as a Velocity program,

Old Sartinites ahould remember the battle of the two concepts.


socantra

[Murph]

As an inquisitve fellow I kick the tires of many offerings. Heck, I even spin em around the block and roll em on the freeway. Do I know Thorostats? Yes. In fact several months ago TBoles (the main man of Tstats) was posting selections and I complemented him on his program and inquired about some of his power numbers as I had been tracking the program for a while and was impressed with a few things that I saw. You know how many other people around here have looked over the program and publicly complemented the proprietor? Zero. At least none in the time that I've been here.This is not true and a simple search of the years past post archives would reveal that to you. You are once again posting misinformation in an attempt to support your BS filled postings.

Without going into great detail suffice it to say that I had several issues in reviewing the program including their not incorporating variants on their numbers, having only one line of numbers and power numbers that had a more than nebulous generation.I find it interesting that you have waited until here and now to bring this to anyone involved with Thorostats' attention. If you had addressed your concerns in a feedback e-mail or forum posting we would have been pleased to have the opportunity to answer them. I can find no evidence that you gave our website and tools more than a quick look over before you proceeded to something else.

I wasn't pimping the program simply because Murph is the way that he is. I have experience with the program and still stand by my assessment that when compared to most products from HDW, it's rather one dimensional and found it completely laughable that he would question the merits of a program like Synergism. I questioned your public advice to a new user of that product. I have never criticised the Synergism program and I never would. Referring a new user to multiple indicators with no reference on how to properly evaluate them is irresponsible. I personally think you are a jerk for misleading someone in that manner.

There are some that are students of the game and like to turn over every rock they come in contact with. Take a guy like Tom. He's been in the game for decades and is still is a consummate student. Sure he uses HTR & cj's figures (some of the best in the biz) but he still looks into Moss numbers and still gets excited about new add ons such as MaxVel & others. It's inspiring to know that a guy can know so much of the game and still be willing to look at new entities.

I asked Zilly earlier in this thread what program he uses. I'll probably drive that around the block a few times as well. Heck, there's some great stuff out there. Dave's HSH, R2's Handicapping OS. Guys that find $120+-/mo too much should probably just buy 8 lotto tickets a week and retire from racing.
NOTHING you mention in these two paragraphs is relevant to the fact that you did make negetive posts directed at an authorized advertiser and then in the very same thread turn and say that you would never do such a thing. This is what professionals in your business try to do every day. Cloud the facts with unrelated issues in an attempt to sell people things they do not really need. In this case that is your handicaping acumen.

You wouldn't know it by some of my clowning around here but I take my game very seriously and work my ass off everyday to be a consistently winning player. I have little empathy for those that don't put the required work into the game and even less for those that lack the resourcefullness necessary for being a profitable player.

My involvement in this here thread has come to a conclusion.


As for the authorized advertiser comment, come on Mike, an ass? More like a disingenuous goof. :lol:

All the Best.Clown is the very reference I made to you that caused you to start this whole flame fest with me to begin with! Now here you post your admission that you do "clown around" in your postings. That is my point exactly. Instead of being such a clown for the most part, why don't at least try to contribute something meaningful to handicaping in your posts. Your clown suit is starting to wear thin and I am not the only one who see this.

If you were as knowledgable about Thorostats as you claim, you would know that we share what we are learning in the handicaping arena in an attempt to bring more users into the game and allow them a better than random chance to succeed while they learn more advanced methods of handicaping that would suit their preferred style of playing the races.

I believe it is shameful that you would try to put our work in a negtive light just to enhance your feeble posting image. If our efferts are successful in bringing more players into the wagering pools and allowing them to wager more money than they might have without our support that can only make the game better for everyone.

That includes you bigmack, but if there was a way I could prevent you from receiving the mutual benefit I would surely try to do it.

Murph

[Greyfox]

Let's see now. I started reading this post thread 91 contributions ago. It started out focussed on Dick Schmidt and Pace Makes Race. Then it wandered like a meandering river via various parts of the orchestra pit picking up the agendas of different instruments as it went.
I enjoyed Dick Schmidt's comment suggesting that anyone who would criticize a book that they haven't read is a moron. I'm not certain why Murph's Thorostats has taken knocks from Big Mack. Certainly the price is right. I'm not certain why Murph even bothers giving Big Mack more fuel for the fire.
At any rate, the question still remains, what are the most useful features of Pace Makes Race that still hold today? Are they significantly different than Jim Bradshaw's match-up approach (as he was part of that PIRCO group at one time I think) ?

[46zilzal]

Pace of the Race vs Pace of each horse. Know that pecking order and you are a few steps closer to the payout window....even after all these years.

[Museful]

At any rate, the question still remains, what are the most useful features of Pace Makes Race that still hold today? Are they significantly different than Jim Bradshaw's match-up approach (as he was part of that PIRCO group at one time I think) ?
Greyfox, thank you for directing this thread back to its origins. I know something about the inner workings of Validator (Doc Sartin's last program) and Speculator (its successor), and when people ask me about the underpinnings of these, I tell them to read PMTR from front to back and then to front again. And then I tell them to read The Match Up 2, several times.

From its earliest beginnings, (e.g. Phase III) a core tool of the Sartin Methodology has been the Line Score, a sum of ranks of various compounded, velocity derived factors. Today, the core factors of that Line Score are EPR, FFR and TPR (or EPR, LPR, CPR in Val/Spec parlance). Along with the Early/Late differential between EPR/FFR plus other compoundings related to balances between 1st and 3rd fraction, 2nd call and 3rd fraction, 2nd fraction and 3rd fraction, and deceleration, these core tenets of incremental energy disbursement still work wonderfully today.

I find that Jim Bradshaw's Match Up approach precedes the application of the TPR and energy disbursement analysis. Identifying who will get the lead, at what projected pace starting at the quarter, who will press, which horses can be eliminated for Win, leaves you with far fewer horses to perform a TPR analysis on. I think the 2 approaches compliment each other perfectly.

Lots of discussion about both the energy disbursement approach of TPR (from the Validator/Speculator point of view) and The Match Up over at Binder's Sartin related website.

Hope that helps,

Ted

[Greyfox]

I think the 2 approaches compliment each other perfectly.



Thank you Museful. Very helpful.

[Dick Schmidt]

Let's see now. I started reading this post thread 91 contributions ago. It started out focussed on Dick Schmidt and Pace Makes Race. Then it wandered like a meandering river via various parts of the orchestra pit picking up the agendas of different instruments as it went.
I enjoyed Dick Schmidt's comment suggesting that anyone who would criticize a book that they haven't read is a moron. I'm not certain why Murph's Thorostats has taken knocks from Big Mack. Certainly the price is right. I'm not certain why Murph even bothers giving Big Mack more fuel for the fire.
At any rate, the question still remains, what are the most useful features of Pace Makes Race that still hold today? Are they significantly different than Jim Bradshaw's match-up approach (as he was part of that PIRCO group at one time I think) ?

Guess I ought to answer one more question before I leave on vacation (going back to England for three weeks). I am a bit "sensitive" about those who criticize any book without having read it. I've had people call me and tell me of the wonderful improvements they have made in TPR before they finished the book or handicapped even one race. Hot button issue with me.

Anyway, I actually feel that if you follow along with the program outlined in the book, keeping all the records required and doing the work necessary to build a track-to-track adjustment table, Total Pace works just as well as it ever did and will show a profit at any track in the country. Of course, most people don't want to do the work needed, so they blame the system and say it is obsolete, but I still use it once in a while with good results. So does Tom Hambleton. We didn't keep back any dark secret methods for our own personal use, so if we can do it, so can anyone else.

Jim Bradshaw was indeed a member of the Sartin Group. He tried several times to teach me his match-up method, though I never got very good at it. Jim is a much more intuitive handicapper who doesn't rely on computers, calculation of numbers or anything else but "eyeball scan." Howard's nickname for his technique. When he finished with a race, his Racing Form was as unmarked as when he bought it. This is the ultimate "handicapping as an art form" style of handicapping and if you can master it, the profits are there. I just could never do it and have always relied on numbers and records. I've seen Jim do some remarkable things and have cashed some huge tickets along side of him. I've also seen him lose 15 races in a row. Overall, he is a very strong player, but as he admits on days when he isn't feeling sharp, he struggles. The downside of "artful" handicapping is 'what do you do when you don't feel up to it but still have to make a living?'

If you can master the match-up, you'll never need another system. After all, Jim is absolutely correct when he says: "All horse races are the same. One horse goes out on the lead and the others try to catch him. Either they do or they don't."

Dick

If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.

[Greyfox]

Thanks Dick.

I'm in agreement with others in this forum that you'd serve as a great "color man" for horse racing. I'm sure that your stories of the times you had with Howard and others could be delightful reading.
If my memory is serving me correctly, you were the actual writer who presented Pace methodology materials clearly and in a manner that could be followed.
After you left Howard wrote some articles as well. But from that point on some definite "bafflegarb" terminology ( eg. "Chaos Theory" and "Entropy") started sneaking into his publications. Enjoy your trip to the Auld Sod.

[bigmack]

Guess I ought to answer one more question before I leave on vacation (going back to England for three weeks).
How bout lending me that avatar for the 3 weeks? I could use it.

On the 21st the London Symphony Orchestra will be performing Dvorak's Sixth and Mozart's 13th. My cousin works with them and can secure tickets, in exchange for the avatar of course.

[Doug3312]

Where can one find a copy of the 2nd edition of PMR? Any suggestions will be appreciated.

[Lefty]

Dick S prob still has a few.

zilly, Yest I played Sunland park. 4th race I figured with both Val2 and Spec 1.60. in Bottom Line Betting Line on both exact same horses, exact same order. 1-6-3-4. On Val screen 1-6-3-4. On Perceptor of 1.60 1-6-3-4. Like I said, Val 2 still works!

[46zilzal]

yes I ALWAYS use sample error to make my point.

[Lefty]

zilly, do YOU even know what you're saying? I've only done a few races using both prgms and the results pretty much mirror ea other. How can that be sample error?

[46zilzal]

Report back to me when you have done 5,000 comparisons at various tracks rather than a card or two at ONE track and then you MIGHT have the idea.

[Lefty]

zilly, you just can't stand being wrong. Does\n't take 5,000 comparasins. Val still usuable and i proved my point to any reasonable person, which you are not. I'm not knocking Spec 1.60 it's the latest thing, after all.

[Dick Schmidt]

Grey,

Howard always talked like that. I spent a lot of time translating into English for the Follow Up and various manuals. I always wanted to re-write the famous original Yellow Phase III manual, but Howard wouldn't let me. He liked the confusion it created. He and I always fought over his lack of clarity. He often told me that the only way we could make any money off clients was to keep them confused and thus coming back for more. I figured if we showed them how to win, they'd keep coming back no matter what.

Bigmack,

You certainly may use the avatar, here or any other sites. Just right click on it and make a copy. That's how I stole it in the first place. Love to go to the LSO but we are leaving tomorrow about noon to catch our 5:00 flight, so I'm not sure how that could be arranged. Anyway, use the avatar with my blessing.

Dick

Brilliance borrows, genius steals!

[46zilzal]

Howard always talked like that. I spent a lot of time translating into English for the Follow Up and various manuals. I always wanted to re-write the famous original Yellow Phase III manual, but Howard wouldn't let me. He liked the confusion it created. He and I always fought over his lack of clarity. He often told me that the only way we could make any money off clients was to keep them confused and thus coming back for more. I figured if we showed them how to win, they'd keep coming back no matter what.



Always thought that was the case.

[Binder]

Hello Mr Schmidt

you wrote "He often told me that the only way we could make any money off clients was to keep them confused and thus coming back for more."

I was wondering if you could clarify about what you said
I think that any business needs a bit of sales ploys
I would like to believe that Doc also wanted to confuse his competition
and stopper bys with deep pockets and big egos

I did notice difference in the follow ups after you were not the editor
There were many mistakes. However Doc usually pointed them out
in the next 1 or 2 issues - for those who don't know
the Follow Up came out every 6 times a year so a few months
of phone calls to the office could unconfuse his clients that truely wanted to win. I thought that I could just say that. Also what was printed in the follow up was not a novel 'THIS IS WHAT WE DO NOW and FOREVER"
I wanted to point out that his door and phone call service were there
for his clients that wanted it...

Thanks
Bill

[46zilzal]

Fellow is the way he is, does not NOW, nor did he ever, walk on water.

[Lefty]

Fellow is the way he is, does not NOW, nor did he ever, walk on water.
Nobody said he did. But he was an innovator and you would not now be enjoying the "fruits" of Spec if it wasn't for him. In the beginning...

[shoelessjoe]

Lefty,You hit the nail right on the head.Shoeless

[njcurveball]

Hello Mr Schmidt

you wrote "He often told me that the only way we could make any money off clients was to keep them confused and thus coming back for more."



I can only speak for myself and the people I knew who were in our "Sartin Group". Whether it was smoke and mirrors, the ugly yellow manual, or actual brilliance, I cannot tell you 100%.

What I can tell is that Doc talked me out of the $600 Energy program and sold me the $200 Kgen program. He also turned down a few others in our group with selling Energy, which was the highest priced program at the time.

He offered manuals for free and when I met him at a Seminar, he not only bought my lunch, but after hearing I was also interested in Harness Racing told me he would send me the program they developed, but gave up on.

He said they gave up due to his lack of trust in the Harness people. If nothing else time has proven Harness to be a brittle and cracked bridge to winning.

Did he ever send me the Harness Program? He sure did, and never even asked for postage.

I have to admit I was ripe to spend money at the time, and he could have sold me $1,000 or more in programs and manuals. I wound up spending $72 a year for the follow up, and a couple hundred for Kgen.

Was there a table set up at the Seminar to sell programs and manuals? No there was not, and let me tell you we were ripe to buy them!

He answered every question I asked, whether it was in person, over the phone, or in a letter. Yes, we actually sent letters back then. His charge? Nothing, not even a dime for his time.

So perhaps Mr. Schmidt's comment was given a lil bit tongue in cheek?

I credit Doc Sartin to be the single most important influence in my career as a pari-mutuel investor.

For the people who chose to defend him, I applaud you. For those who actually knew him and choose another path, you may have merit in what you say.

And for those who never met the man and speak bad about him, all I can do is add you to my ignore list. Your words are obviously as empty as your wallet.

Jim

[44PACE]

Sartin never ever pushed a program down my throat, matter a fact sometimes it was difficult to get him to sell me one.


Howard Sartin is a geniune good guy, if he was in it for the money he did a very poor job. He could have sold his stuff for double or triple what he did.Look at the others who sell crap programs for 795.00 , with 10,000 worthless screens, getting $15 per download. Did Howard do this? No he did not, unlike some people he doesn't have to rip people off to make money at the races.


None of this has anything to do with the TPR subject, maybe its time to close this one.

[Binder]

What I can tell is that Doc talked me out of the $600 Energy program and sold me the $200 Kgen program. He also turned down a few others in our group with selling Energy, which was the highest priced program at the time.

He offered manuals for free and when I met him at a Seminar, he not only bought my lunch, but after hearing I was also interested in Harness Racing told me he would send me the program they developed, but gave up on.


Jim

Thanks NJ-Jim
I just recently found my old PL4 program
I became a client long after that program $300, was replaced by a
$600 base (+ a $72.00 commitment for a year of follow ups ) Synthesis
I would have been very happy to spend the money for Synthesis
But they would not let me. Doc Sartins daughter Mary first interviewed
me and set up an appointment for me to talk to Doc first before they sold me anything. They sent me a kit of manuals and a follow up #69
free. I was asked to read the contents of that kit before my meeting with
Doc After I spoke to Doc Mary called me back and said they would
sell me PL4 but not Synthesis because they had a new program
in development called Validator.
At that time they would sell programs for full cost
and also a few hundred dollar less cost If you would sign up
for a full year of follow ups and phone/office support =$72.00
I spent many hundreds of dollars on manuals ,cassette tapes
upgrades videos but I was also given a free copy of synthesis
that they tried to develop that printed out a results chart
of each 20 race cycle. I was invited to visit Doc and
work with him when Validator 2 was about to be released
I was given that program free

I can relate to your story of Docs generosity

[PaceAdvantage]

Look at the others who sell crap programs for 795.00 , with 10,000 worthless screens, getting $15 per download.

Wow! This coming from the same poster who once wrote:

Horse racing programs are only as good as the person using it. The results you get are determined by your ability to correctly read what you see and make good decisions.

Handicapping programs are just tools, winning over a period of time requires the user to work at finding the edges a program can give you and also paying attention to the times when your read outs are telling you to stay out of a race that there are times when 5 or 6 horses are so close together in ability etc that any horse can win.Strange...

[44PACE]

Boy did you miss the POINT!!!


I was just making a comparison, that Doc could have done what others do, but he didn't.


I stand by what I said, the users ability is very important.

[Houndog]

The concepts still work as they always have. I purchased the original book which inluded chapters by Doc Sartin and Michael Pizzolla as well. I also ordered the ratings on laminated plastic which I stil have. If Dick still has copies of the later edition I probably will purchase that also. Although you are only looking at 3 numbers EPR-FFR-TPR if you follow the guidelines in the book they are still powerful.

If you read the book you will find out alot of work went into making the numbers, especially the FFR rating. I also have worked with the manual entry Sartin programs such as Synergism; Energy; Thoromation; KGEN; Entropy; and Quad-Rater. These programs work as they always have since they do not rely on par times as the adjustments are made according to the horses entered in the program. This is not a knock on par times or programs that use a downloading service. Let's face it doing manual entry of pacelines for several racetracks is something I do not want to do on a daily basis.

In the age of simulcasting you almost have to make use of a program that uses a downloading service. For Sartin programs I used Synthesis with success. The data provider has since changed the way it computes it's adjustments so as Lefty stated you would have to be careful with using certain lines.

My point is you must exercise caution when choosing a program that uses a downloading service as you may find yourself out of business when they go out of business or when the programmer leaves.

Sorry PA as I did not want to stray to off the thread, but was just hoping to add some additional information.

[46zilzal]

Nobody said he did. But he was an innovator and you would not now be enjoying the "fruits" of Spec if it wasn't for him. In the beginning...
the last several programs were written by Guy Wadsworth incorporating many ideas that were specifically DIS-ALLOWED in earlier programs.

I never said the fellow was a bad sort. He just MANAGED and PACKAGED a lot of ideas from a number or sources.

[forecast]

What I can tell is that Doc talked me out of the $600 Energy program and sold me the $200 Kgen program. He also turned down a few others in our group with selling Energy, which was the highest priced program at the time.Jim

In 1990 I became a "client", paying a nominal fee for the Phase 3 program, a couple of manuals, and a free issue of the Follow-up. After having difficulty with certain races using Phase 3, I asked for a meeting with Doc Sartin. Doc met with me personally in his office in Beaumont, free of charge. After reviewing my "problem" races by hand, he recommended that I use a combination of the Energy program and Kgen. The cost was $500 for Energy, and he gave me Kgen for free. I did not have money at the time, so $500 was a lot for a program. I asked Doc to guarantee me that if the program did not work for me, he would refund my money 100%, no questions asked. Doc agreed, and off I went.

I worked with the program for over six months, but I could not win with it. I made another (free) appointment with Doc, and we reviewed my problem races, about twenty in all. After reviewing my races, which Doc was not able to reasonably get on any of the Sartin programs, he wrote me a check for $500, gave me a book to read that he thought might help me (free again), and asked me if he could help me in any other way.

This is how I will always remember Doc Sartin and my association with the group. I can only judge the man by how he dealt with me, and I believe he truly wanted to help me win at the races long-term. So here's to you, Doc. Thanks again for everything. :ThmbUp:

By the way, I returned to the Phase 3 program, purchased Tom Brohamer's variants, attended weekly seminars given by Tom and James Quinn, and became a winner at the races within six months. As has been stated here, it's not necessarily the program you use, but the right program for your own personal tastes, preferences, and thought processes.

[nagwa]

hi, just like to thank dick, for sending me a copy of his excellent book..pace makes the race..gone out of his way to make sure i got a copy..appreciate your help
great forum