HPI Payoffs On Santa Anita Races

[trying2win]

I just noticed something different today on the Santa Anita races. I had bet one horse to place at Santa Anita through HPI. The payoff through HPI was lower than the American tote prices. Normally in the past, HPI payoffs at the webtote site paid the same or a dime higher for each top three finisher, because of nickel breakage here in Canada. Now it looks like HPI customers are getting ripped off on payoffs on 2nd and 3rd place finishers at Santa Anita in some instances. I phoned HPI and the Canadian Parimutuel Agency asking for an explanation why. I got the usual buck passing from both places...i.e. "They didn't know why...try this phone number or organization for an explanation...blah...blah...blah"

I suspect it has something to do with the comingling bets agreement
from Canada into Santa Anitas pools just recently. I read somewhere, that Santa Anita would allow comingling of bets, but that Santa Anita would only allow it if there was extra money paid to the workmens compensation fund at their track. I'm guessing then that to get this extra money, then some kind of decision was made to whoever looks after tote pool payoffs in Canada, to increase the takeout on 2nd and 3rd finishers in a race at Santa Anita, but leaves the winner's straight payoff pools alone.

Well, that's another reason, I'll soon be abandoning betting through HPI.
Mind you, take a lot at some of the payoffs at the WINDSOR RACEWAY toteboard at Santa Anita today..some of the payoffs are even lower than that of HPI. For example...compare the place payoff on the 2nd place finisher in Santa Anita's 2nd race today at the BRISNET site, the HPI site and the Windsor Raceway site).

As soon as I'm going to quit HPI, I'll tell them why. More bettors should complain to racetrack manangements and/or local betting companies about mutuel, track takeout, or commission rates, instead of just complaining here at PACE ADVANTAGE, and tell them they will be taking their business elsewhere. Then maybe management will do something about these situations, when they see their parimutuel
handle drop drastically.

T2W

[46zilzal]

If you keep track over time, as I have for 5 years now of HPI payoffs, you will see variances in prices: some higher, some lower. There is no grand scheme to rip you off. You are experiencing SAMPLE ERROR!

[befuddlem]

Don't kid yourself HPI is out to screw you at every turn.

[46zilzal]

Don't kid yourself HPI is out to screw you at every turn.
if the intials were IRS I would agree with you but I have never had a problem with them excpet sometimes when their boards are down for a few minutes.

[befuddlem]

Good for you Zilzal, but I can't say the same, so I won't.

[beertapper]

abit off topic, but how does common pool w/ US tracks factor in the exchange rate? a win of 10.00 will get the same price in Canada, but shouldn't it be 10.00 x exchange rate?

trying2win, what other service can you use in Canada for betting ?

[BillW]

abit off topic, but how does common pool w/ US tracks factor in the exchange rate? a win of 10.00 will get the same price in Canada, but shouldn't it be 10.00 x exchange rate?

trying2win, what other service can you use in Canada for betting ?

There is no exchange rate - Canadians bet $CDN and the US bets $US

[trying2win]

Beertapper,

I also like using PINNACLE a lot, with the odd bet sent through LINK2BET. PINNACLE pays me a 7 % rebate on my bets, while at my current betting level, LINK2BET is paying me a 5 % rebate. The HPI cheapskate rebate isn't even worth discussing...lol.

T2W

[parlay]

As posted by me on another borad a few months ago:

Mark, i'm with you. Closing Greenwood was a mistake from a fans'
perspective. The land value made its eventual demise inevitable.
Only thing that would have saved it was the addition of Slots or
a full fledged Casino, niether of which are available in downtown
Toronto YET!
Watching the replays of Woodbine this morning i couldn't help
but notice the increase in kickback. Interesting to hear that
the powers that be are acknowledging a problem.
The rush to poly strikes me as another example of the contempt
WEG management has for the betting public.
Slot money overflowing their pockets, they pander to the owners.
"We are concerned for your investments" (horseflesh), and will
do everything possible to protect it.( my words).
But what of those of us who only participate as bettors?
Is there money for us?
Lets see, they have a lousy "takeout adjustment" program.
Okay its better than nothing and better than some others offer.
Its not nearly enough though from a company holding a monopoly.
Oh ya, didn't you know they are a monopoly.
They have colluded with other internet/phone services to prevent
Ontario residents from availing themselves of these sevices anywhere
else in North America! I am not talking about offshore illegal competitors.
I as a Ontario resident cannot open an account with BRISBET, YOUBET,
Connecticut OTB, EBET or even the Quebec system.
WEG OWNS ALL TORONTO RESIDENTS.
This is a result of illegal collusion.
I have put two calls into CHAIRMAN and CEO David Willmot in the past
month, niether call was returned. So much for wanting to know what your
patrons have to say.
WEGs' betting system HPIbet is one of the few that does not provide
streaming video of all tracks that it handles. Since Ontario residents
are precluded from having accounts with those companies that do
we either go without or satisfy ourselves by paying to subscribe
to HPItv. Hmm, do you think WEG might be forcing us to subsidize
there investment in HPItv? Can you say hidden tax?
HPIbet allows $0.20 wagers into Canadian pools only.
We are prevented from betting less than $1 into U.S. pools
even when the host track is taking $0.10. This may not be
totally WEGs' fault but what are they doing on my behalf to
rectify the situation? If you own me you have a responsibility
to ensure that i am competeing on as level a playing field
as possible. It is foolhardy for anyone to make investments into
ten or twenty cent pools when being forced into a one dollar minimum.
WEG is not all bad.
Woodbine is a wonderful facility, i often make the trek out there
just because it is so great.
Champions teletheatres (OTB) are sprinkled around the Greater
Toronto Area with free admission.
Racing is broadcast on regular stations periodically, showcasing
our game to potentially new eyes.
Jim Bannon is a long time associate who is invaluable to the
organization. Insightfull and articulate, always approachable.
The problem is an old one.
The patrons are on the lowest rung of the ladder in racing.
WEG has decided that they know what is best for me.
Last month WEG provoked the Provincial government to
enforce / enact legislation preventing the advertising of illegal
internet gaming sites.
David Willmot went on radio to defend WEGs' position and
stated that he was more than willing to compete with those
playing by the same rules he had to abide by.
David, that is BULLSHIT and you know it!!
The problem is and always has been that OJC/WEG is a
old boys club.
The people that run it are not bettors and have nothing but
contempt for thier patrons.Degenerates all.
This is what will kill horseracing in the long run. Competition in
this age of technology cannot be stifled. Regardless what the
old farts in Washington think.
Stop blaming your problems on offshore/onshore/illegal/legal rebate
providing/bookmaking competition.
There are challenges, there always will be. Unfortunately racetrack
owners seem imune to forward thinking solutions.
Thankfully i'll be dead before this game is, but it might not be
long after my demise that the show finally ends. God help us
if we are to depend on the current ownership groups to steward
this beautiful sport.

Michael Gotkin

[beertapper]

Beertapper,

I also like using PINNACLE a lot, with the odd bet sent through LINK2BET. PINNACLE pays me a 7 % rebate on my bets, while at my current betting level, LINK2BET is paying me a 5 % rebate. The HPI cheapskate rebate isn't even worth discussing...lol.

T2W

yeah, the HPI rebate is 0.5% maybe ? abit more for large bettors. Reminds me of the rate that some slot clubs offer... if anything, please improve the prizes that we can redeem for (nothing offerred has ever caught my attention). What is their reason for the lower rebates? Do they use the difference for purses, maintenance costs, etc ?

i'd like to the hpibet web interface improved too. it's only compatible with internet explorer and could use a facelift. you have to access 2 different sites for video and a tote.. why not just integrate it all into one page ?

[trying2win]

PARLAY,

I liked reading your post here. Right on! I love it when bettors contact racing management by telephone, email and tell them their beefs and bouquets about the racetracks they bet on. Sometimes you don't always get a reply or the reply you want, but you've made you're feelings known as the CUSTOMER. Sometimes we as bettors must feel like Howard Beale from the movie 'NETWORK'. Remember that film? Instead of being Mr. Milquetoast and just taking the apathy, arrogance and disdain that some racetracks display... SAY SOMETHING TO SOME OF THESE INCOMPETENT MANAGEMENT AT SOME OF THESE TRACKS! If you also encounter some excellent service on the part of some racetrack employees, let management know the good side too.

I noticed in an article that at the start of the Tampa Bay Downs meet, that the management decided to lower the track takeout on some types of bets there. Bettors of that track should commend the management for that decision.

Seems to me, Santa Anita were talking about increasing the takeout rate for straight wagers recently to pay for the WORKMENS COMPENSATION program there. Does anyone know if they did that? Which raises another question, why is the WORKMENS COMPENSATION allegedly a bigger problem at Santa Anita than at other tracks. Has the Santa Anita management ever heard of PREVENTION? That is, installing polytrack, conducting safety classes for workers etc. to reduce costs, instead of doing nothing about the problem and passing on their track's WORKMENS COMPENSATION costs to bettors in the form of increased track takeouts?

I think some enlightened bettors are tired of 'EXCUSITIS' on the part of some racetrack managements...i.e. Reasons why THEY HAVEN'T, why THEY DON'T, why THEY CAN'T and why THEY AREN'T doing some things at their racetracks for the benefit of the CUSTOMER.

I thought the late, great motivator Earl Nightingale had it right, when on one topic of doing business the proper way....he said something to the effect..."The customer pays all your bills. He pays for everything you own. If you don't please him or her, they will take their business elsewhere". Progressive companies know the importance of customer satisfaction to their bottom line. Unenlightened companies don't, and can't figure out why they struggle financially at times....DUH!

T2W

[banacek]

yeah, the HPI rebate is 0.5% maybe?

Last year HPI sent me a note all excited about their NEW HIGHER rebates. Turned out their new and improved rebates actually dropped my rebates by 25%.

[banacek]

Beertapper,

I also like using PINNACLE a lot, with the odd bet sent through LINK2BET. PINNACLE pays me a 7 % rebate on my bets, while at my current betting level, LINK2BET is paying me a 5 % rebate. The HPI cheapskate rebate isn't even worth discussing...lol.

T2W

T2W, just wondering do you use HPI at all anymore? I'm about done with them.

[46zilzal]

copied the complaints and forwarded them to one of my friends who is a annoncer in HPI-TV.....see what becomes of them

[trying2win]

T2W, just wondering do you use HPI at all anymore? I'm about done with them.

Banacek,

Yeah, I'll still use HPI at times. Mainly, I want to get to a certain "POINTS' level at present so I can cash them in. Then once I do that, I plan on taking out most of the money in the account. Later on in the year when the STAMPEDE PARK, NORTHLANDS PARK and HASTINGS PARK start their thoroughbred meets again, then I'll put some moe money in the account. There's the odd offshore racebook that takes bets on these tracks, but I don't think they pay any rebate, so I guess I'm stuck using HPI again for these western Canada racetracks. Even so, now that I'm aware of the ripoff of the place payoffs at times on horses finishing second at Santa Anita, I won't be betting horses to place at that track anymore via HPI. It'll be just win bets for awhile at SA through HPI. If I want a place bet to go along with the win bet at SA, I'll bet it through Pinnacle.

Thanks,

T2W

[bobbyb]

....I posted this and the public Internet Link some time ago. A search will bring it up;....

by David Willmot Woodine Entertainment Centre, March 5th, 2004
(spoken in open forum, chaired by Stan Bergstein Ex VP HTA)

"What we have to look at is a pricing structure. We have a player reward system at Woodbine. I can tell you our very biggest customers get ten percent on win, place, show bets. On win, place, show, we are as low as ten percent takeout. Why don’t we go down to where the rebates are at 5 percent? Because below ten percent, given the cost of processing the bet, the cost of operating, purses, and everything else, it does not make any sense for us to take that bet. I must say we have thousands of account holders who benefit from player rewards. We believe in player rewards and we believe in racetrack operated account wagering, racetrack player rewards, and lower takeout as a general statement, we believe in that. What we don’t believe in are opportunistic, parasitic operators that have come into this business and now claim that these are their customers, and say that they are doing us a service offering a Porche Boxster to one of our biggest customers to move his wagering over from about 12 percent on our player rewards program to three percent. As Chris said earlier when we were talking about the pirates of the Caribbean, they are not doing anything illegal in the sense that they are coming into our pools, but when they walk onto our racetrack and overtly poach racetrack customers, it may not be illegal, but it sure is unwelcome. We as an industry have got to address that. What we should not be having is dollars going out to opportunistic, third party operators who don’t operate racetracks unless they pay an appropriate price".

Q & A

Why is breakage being used to increase the purses at Woodbine, when slots were the cure?
Wouldn't it be so kind of management to return that 2 us in the form of a REABATE.
Where is the money from the uncashed/lost tickets? Can't come up with this one.
There are others..........by why bother hitting your head against a wall.

As an aside, 46, I'm not sure if you are aware but - Georgian Downs is in a dispute with the Horsemen - ALL teletheatres are closed - BUT from Georgian "please be advised that are Slots facility remains open during this dispute". And therein lies the problem 46.
We are PAWNS! We no longer have a voice. When the proposal for Slots first arose, I wrote a zillion letters - to no avail. My letters to the Ontario Racing Commission concerning an open ended agreement with the Horsemen went - unanswered. Hey, what a great situation to be in - need more dough - plug the plug - screw those that supported racing pre-slots - but allow the "parlors" to remain open - your atypical open end agreement.

Why in the world would WEG commit to a Rebate program and have to live with it. It's a catch 22 now people. If the slot revenue falls, racing dates will be cut, no(?) NOT PURSES!!! Shaking your head that it will never happen, read the next text. And before you tell me its time to cull out some of the smaller tracks, remember there are only 2 TB tracks in Ontario.

As reported by TbN member Harlan Abbey/St. Catharines Standard

Because of a 30 percent decline in slot machine revenue, Fort Erie management -- after discussing the situation with officers of the Horsemen's Benevolent and Protective Assn. (HBPA) -- has decided to cut 20 dates off the 2007 racing calendar.
The Ontario Racing Commission will consider the request for 84 programs, compared to 104 days of racing in both 2005 and 2006.
With slot machine income providing 75 percent of race purses, the other alternative was to cut race purses 30 percent. So in '07 there be less racing, but purses will remain the same.
The proposed season will open May 5 (Kentucky Derby Saturday) and close Oct. 30. However, except for opening day, racing will be held only on Mondays and Tuesday during the month of May. Sundays would be added in June, with Saturdays added only for July and August -- except for closing weekend.

Less Racing but the Purses will remain the same(wtf......?????????)
The Track will not be offering live racing to compliment a leg of the Triple Crown for the patrons who supported it for years(???) If you scratch your head, you'll get this message - Who needs Racing.
Isn't it amazing - less than 20 minutes from one of the "wonders of the world" Niagara Falls - where the tourist count is in the MILLIONS during FE meet - the Gov goes forward with a 3rd NEW Casino - essentially the begining of the end of FE - so much for saving racing. What a load of crap that statement was. IMO Where there's $$$$$$ there are 2 components Greed and the Gov.
Mr WEG - David W - look out, Toronto is next, and the Gov is bigger than you and your cronies.

bobbyb

[parlay]

bobbyb, there is no question in my mind that
Woodbine will be a full fledged casino very soon.
This is part and parcel of the new development
that was announced last year. I would not be
surprises to see the second floor absorbed into
the "gaming" area, leaving the upper levels for
the "degenerates". I have not heard a peep
about this anywhere, i am not an insider nor
do i know any, so there may be some whispers
that i an unaware of. But it seems to me WEG
was happy to not bring the Casino up when
announcing the development and no one in
the press called them on it. VERY SUSPICIOUS!
The backroom deals must be playing out as
we speak.
A friend just returned from a trip to Niagara
First they went to the Canadian casino, it
was dead. They then went across the border
and had dinner at the U.S casino, packed!!
Factors seem to be,
SMOKING is allowed in U.S
FREE DRINKS in U.S
CDN dollar excange rate
Hassles of crossing border

Fort Erie, Casino Niagara, Casino Windsor and
if you missed the article, Vernon Downs are all
suffering due to competition for their slot players!
The party is over, all the racinos will begin the
elimination of the financial hardship racing
anchors them with!

[bobbyb]

parlay

No, I don't think it will be the end all. If we are referring to Canada - Horses and Ontario have a tremendous, rooted History. Starting with the early part of the 20th century Windsor hosted the contest between Man O War and Sir Barton at Devonshire Raceway (now a mall) and since has produced many world class horses and horsemen over the years - Northern Dancer - and many others - John Campbell, Filion, Jack Herbert, Waples - Hawley etc. etc. The same is true for any State of the Union. Horsemen/women entered the sport for the love of the animal then and I believe that still exists today. The problem is oversaturation. How many of our American friends are aware that within 300 miles of Toronto in either direction - exception Lake Ontario - (and someone, somewhere is thinking about that too) there are - hold on I'm using my fingers to count - oops I need my toes - 14+ RACETRACKS WITH CASINO'S. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
(If I left anyone out on the gravy train , my apologies). Has that resonated yet - 14+. :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:
For our American friends, Ontario's population is miniscule compared with most states. WE ARE SLOT CRAZY - well not all of us....lol

All kidding aside (Exception The number of Tracks with Casino's/Racino's.... whatever);
- All I want to know is this: Dear Mr. Willmot - where is this phantom 10 percent you spoke of in 2004 :rolleyes:

ps: My 9 letters and a million e mails have gone unanswered.

bobbyb

[rrbauer]

trying2win:
"Seems to me, Santa Anita were talking about increasing the takeout rate for straight wagers recently to pay for the WORKMENS COMPENSATION program there. Does anyone know if they did that? Which raises another question, why is the WORKMENS COMPENSATION allegedly a bigger problem at Santa Anita than at other tracks. Has the Santa Anita management ever heard of PREVENTION? That is, installing polytrack, conducting safety classes for workers etc. to reduce costs, instead of doing nothing about the problem and passing on their track's WORKMENS COMPENSATION costs to bettors in the form of increased track takeouts?"

Comment:
California raised their takeout on exotic bets in 2004 by a half percent to fund workers comp relief. This was done even after there was relief generated by changes in state law and workers comp rates were reduced as mandated by the state. Worker's comp is paid for in Calif by trainers because when they are riding a horse, jocks are considered to be an employee of the trainer. California racing leaders made a shambles of the legislation that increased the takeout for workers comp and what they came up with completely disregards the wording of the law as to how the relief is supposed to be earned and paid out. Instead, they simply pay each horse that enters a race and doesn't earn any purse money, an appearance fee. This bypasses any accounting to reconcile the application of the additional takeout funds and show that they are being used to provide WC premium relief. Balancing the books for workers comp relief in California for jocks and exercise riders lands squarely on the backs of horseplayers in the form of increased takeout with no accountabiliity for the funds and how the relief is reducing the WC load on trainers. The half-point increase does expire in 2009 but you can bet that the TOC and related interests will be lobbying hard to retain it. To change the takeout level requires legislative action in California.

It works differently in other states as some states consider jocks to be independent contractors and in those cases there is usually a state fund paid into by many sources to fund workers comp for jocks and exercise riders.

[Rook]

I'd like to thank trying2Win, befuddlem, parlay, beertrapper, banacek and bobbyb for ripping into HPI. They truly are a target worthy of total contempt. In the spirit of this great thread, I am going to repost what I wrote back in April 2005:

How Does Your Betting Service Compare With This?
Being a Canadian, I do not have the option of being a YouBet or BrisBet customer, so I am forced to deal with Woodbine’s service HPIBET but that’s okay because I can’t think of better company to do business with. Some companies would take advantage of being a monopoly but not Woodbine. Their service is top notch. Here is my review:

Rebates: Bet $5000 to $14,999 a month, and you will have your takeout reduced a whopping 0.5%. If you wager a measly $75,000, you will be swimming in riches with a 2% takeout reduction. Which companies can compete with that?

Rewards: Woodbine is so generous with their rewards that it probably makes Santa Claus blush. With my $7500 wagered this month, I only have to wager another $800 to get an HPI travel mug and T-Shirt. I can’t wait to start giving these guys free advertising because they deserve it!

Pool Size: Woodbine believes that good things come in small packages so they don’t commingle their wagers with American tracks. This means that problem gamblers aren’t tempted to wager large amounts that get them into trouble because even the worst degenerate understands that a $100 bet is very dumb when it represents 10% of the pool.

Advance Wagering: HPI allows you to wager a full half hour before tracks open! Imagine the freedom of only having to wait until 2:30 or 3:30 to get your advance wagers on western tracks in. After that, you have the whole afternoon to yourself!

Track Availability: Every month, customers are offered the excitement of guessing which tracks will be available in the new HPI schedule. Imagine the relief a customer feels when he discovers that the track he has been working on for countless hours and has been playing 3 times a week (Stampede) is at least available on Wednesday nights. A more thoughtless company would have pulled the track completely off its schedule.

Wager Tracking: HPI allows their customers to review their bets for the entire day! Looking up the profit or loss on each bet simply requires a little math and access to a site like Equibase. An HPI rep informed me that they might be looking into adding the advanced feature of letting their customers keep track of their bets for an entire month and even provide the amount won and lost on each bet! Cutting edge programming like this keeps HPI ahead of the pack.

Video: HPI provides video for Woodbine and Hastings. That’s double your fun when they both run concurrently! All it takes is simply adding in another username and password when you want access.

User Friendliness: HPI allows the user to stay online for approximately 20 minutes before booting them off and requiring a new login. For those who never pass a race or have a bite to eat, they have the potential to stay online for an entire card of racing!

Stability: HPI’s interface locks up upon confirmation only about 30% of the time. That means a user doesn’t have to refresh or log back in a clear majority of the time!

Customer Service: HPI takes pride in getting problems rectified in a speedy manner. When I called to inquire about receiving only 1700 points after betting $7500 this month (it should be 1 point per dollar bet), they told me it would only take 3 or 4 days to figure out what went wrong. This response time would be even faster if Woodbine didn’t have the heart to give their competent workers weekends off.

So for all of you who are unhappy with your own betting service, you have plenty of reason to be if it doesn’t stack up with Woodbine’s HPI. These guys are a shining example of why I am proud to be a Canadian.
----------------------------------------

The whole thread can be found at:

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19688

[banacek]

I'd like to thank trying2Win, befuddlem, parlay, beertrapper, banacek and bobbyb for ripping into HPI. They truly are a target worthy of total contempt. In the spirit of this great thread, I am going to repost what I wrote back in April 2005:

I enjoyed that. ;) But to be fair since you wrote that HPI has also introduced "great news, higher rebates" which dropped my rebates on my win bets (which are my primarly wagers) by only 25%. It is great to be Canadian! When I inquired about why the letter that introduced the "higher rebates!" was written in such a "carny" way, the person who actually signed the letter emailed me said that he was sorry that my rebates dropped and that it was written in that way, but that it was written by marketing and he didn't have control of the contents of the letter he signed. :D

Sorry to my U.S. friends: Please note: You must be a Canadian resident in order to qualify for a HorsePlayer Interactive account

[Rook]

Let's review what has changed in the last 20 months:

Rebates: Woodbine thought their rebate policy was too generous, so the weasels not only lowered the rebate on WPS, they switched from a monthly to weekly takeout adjustment. The effect is that bettors have to pump out 8.7% more each week to receive what little they got before. For example, it takes $81,529 a month instead of $75k and that pace must be kept up each week in order to maintain a whopping 2%.

Rewards: I don't see their t-shirts anymore but for just 1000 more points, I can advertise their product with one of their polo shirts. I haven't ordered one of these so I don't know if you get to choose your own size or whether they just give you the one they have most in surplus.

Video: still the same smorgasbord of options: Woodbine and a western track

Advance Wagering: At 3:30 EST, SA was still "Available later today", so nothing has changed there. I guess we should just be thankful that you can bet on races 2 thru 9 when race 1 goes online at 20 MTP..

Track Availability: still the same excitement of guessing which of the minor tracks will be available on certain days. (ex. PHA & TUP only from Mon to Wed) Maybe one of these days, HPI will upgrade their program so that it can handle more than 7 thoroughbred tracks at a time.

Pool Size: Canadians can now bet into a bunch of American pools but as was mentioned earlier, we are shut out of the 10 cent supers which most tracks have turned to. Of course, HPI's software doesn't tell you this as the 20 cent option appears on the screen for all tracks and you can process the bet all the way through the final confirmation screen until you are then told the bet was not placed.

Wager Tracking: I was told in April 2005 that they were working on getting monthly betting and profit statements integrated into their system. Give them another few years and I bet their speedy programmers will have conquered this tricky technical problem.

Stability: I can actually report that this has actually improved over the last 2 years :eek:. The 30% lock up rate was probably due to the fact that I was betting those hard to handle convoluted superfecta tickets and was using an obscure operating system called Windows 2000.

Customer Service: I don't have any new stories to share since perhaps not surprisingly, they have lost 99.5% of my business.

[banacek]

Rook and others. Today is the 3rd anniversary of the start of HPIBET.com. I found this about when it was set up. I'm not sure who was in their focus groups, but it wasn't me.



The next step was to design a system that offered Canadian customers the ease of use and security they were seeking in a full-service online betting site.

"We looked at all the systems that were available at the time and we also conducted focus groups amongst our customers and we did not find a system that seemed to really meet what our customers were looking for," said Macdonald. "We bit the bullet and said that we would start from scratch, build it from the ground up and design exactly what our customers wanted. "

"In layman’s terms, what the customers wanted was a SAM machine with live odds and runner names, and in effect that’s what we’ve done."

Wow, live odds and the horse's names. Good thing you started from scratch and didn't use any of the other lousy systems out there.

[trying2win]

Here's a copy of an email that I just sent to Woodbine Entertainment Group:

"Thanks for selling out to Frankie Stronach and his demands for more money when getting a deal with Santa Anita to have U.S. & Canada co-mingling of pari-mutuel pools. Yes...that was meant as sarcasm. I just noticed the skimming off of place and show money of the Santa Anita payoffs to HPI customers in many instances. I guess you were hoping the Canadian customers wouldn't notice huh? Yes, a lot of us have noticed, and we don't like this kind of fleecing. Yes, I'm talking about the 10 cent(and sometimes 20 cent lower place and/or show payoffs to HPI customers.

As soon as I reach a certain soon-to-be level of your 'cheapskate points', I will be withdrawing all my money from HPI.

Why would I want to continue betting with HPI, when I can get 5 % to 7% cash rebates at other betting sites."

Unhappy HPI customer,


(The note below here is not part of my email to HPI)

--Did you notice the payoffs on the 2nd race today at Santa Anita?

Specifically, the 20 cent lower place payoff at the webtote.ca site, 8.40, as opposed to the payoff you see at a place like bristote, which reads 8.60 for the 2nd place finisher in this race?

T2W

[trying2win]

For quite awhile now, we have been reading how Magna Entertainment keeps losing millions of dollars on their horse racing ventures year-after- year. Then we read how they intend to implement new strategies to improve their bottom line in the horse racing sector of their business.

Gee, I wonder why Magna Entertainment keeps losing millions of dollars year-after-year? You don't think it would be for things like gouging horse players with execssive track takeouts at some of their tracks, asking customers to pay for watching the live horse racing videos of most of their racetracks, excessive concession prices, or trying to control who can bet on their tracks with their preferred method of EXPRESSBET?....hmmmm...Guess who pays the bills Frankie?....Not you...THE CUSTOMER!...duh! ....the forgotten part of the equation. I wonder is he has heard of the expression 'customer satisfaction'?

T2W

[banacek]

As soon as I reach a certain soon-to-be level of your 'cheapskate points', I will be withdrawing all my money from HPI.


Good for you. I'm done with HPI too. My New Years Resolution.

No customer service. No customers.

[beertapper]

Has anyone considered calling CPMA and reporting this differenece in the payouts ? I don't know if they can do anything about it, but they do have a 24 hour hotline...

There's something HPItv does get right... at exactly 4pm PST yesterday they cut off the dedicated Santa Anita feed (3 MTP for the feature race) for harness racing from the Meadowlands... as per schedule. But... Meadowlands is a non common pool track, and the first race doesn't start until aroudn 4:20, why not show the feature from SA at least ??

[trying2win]

Beertapper,

Re: The Canadian Parimutuel Agency...When I first noticed these place and show payoff reductions at HPI, I phoned them up. That's when the buck passing began. The HPI representative didn't know the reason, and gave me another phone number to call. If I remember correctly, that place was the Canadian Parimutuel Agency. I didn't get an answer to my question there either....something like..."I don't know the answer to that"...or "We have nothing to do with such matters"...blah...blah....blah!

So, I figured the best thing to do was speak with my wallet. You saw my earlier post. I told HPI, I will be withdrawing all my money out soon from that cheap, two-bit outfit.

T2W

[trying2win]

The news gets worse on the gimmick payoffs for HPI customers! I didn't notice till now, because I've been mainly betting win or place bets at Santa Anita, but if you take a look at the major gimmick payoffs at that track and compare the U.S. payoffs and webtote.ca payoffs, there is a substantial difference. And I'm not just talking the 10 or 20 cent reductions as on place or show bets at times. For example, check out the differences on some triactor or win 4 payoffs.

T2W

[banacek]

The news gets worse on the gimmick payoffs for HPI customers! I didn't notice till now, because I've been mainly betting win or place bets at Santa Anita, but if you take a look at the major gimmick payoffs at that track and compare the U.S. payoffs and webtote.ca payoffs, there is a substantial difference. And I'm not just talking the 10 or 20 cent reductions as on place or show bets at times. For example, check out the differences on some triactor or win 4 payoffs.

T2W

I hadn't noticed that as I am a win bettor. Here's what is on HPI's site:

Why might payoffs on some pools differ from that of the host?

"Since some U.S. tracks have extraordinarily low takeout rates on some pools (e.g. Triactors, Superfectas) that do not accommodate the high mandatory deductions in Canada, WEG will use a minimum of 25% for the total takeout on these pools. This is a very common rate that is used by other U.S. tracks."

SA rate is 20.18% on those wagers (from what I found). So if 25% is mandatory, I wonder where that other 4.82% is going? And if it is indeed mandatory how about a little increase in the take out adjustments to the players.

[trying2win]

Here's another email I just sent to Woodbine Entertainment Group

To HPI,

"I just noticed that after I sent my earlier email today complaining about the reduction in many place and show bet prices at Santa Anita, compared to U.S. prices for the same horse, that the fleecing of HPI customers gets worse when betting major gimmicks at this track. Thanks a lot (more sarcasm).

I'll be advising more horse players who are not aware of these scenarios when betting Santa Anita through HPI. Now it's your turn to say thanks a lot... Don't be surprised if you get more cancellations in the next while of HPI accounts by enlightened bettors."

Soon to be ex-HPI customer,


T2W

--It was nice to read posts here at PACE ADVANGTAGE lately, about other disgruntled bettors who have fired off emails to some of the so-called 'elite racetrack managers'.

[RXB]

I hadn't noticed that as I am a win bettor. Here's what is on HPI's site:

Why might payoffs on some pools differ from that of the host?

"Since some U.S. tracks have extraordinarily low takeout rates on some pools (e.g. Triactors, Superfectas) that do not accommodate the high mandatory deductions in Canada, WEG will use a minimum of 25% for the total takeout on these pools. This is a very common rate that is used by other U.S. tracks."

SA rate is 20.18% on those wagers (from what I found). So if 25% is mandatory, I wonder where that other 4.82% is going? And if it is indeed mandatory how about a little increase in the take out adjustments to the players.

The federal government takes several per cent from all triactor and superfecta wagers placed in Canada. Phone your MP.

Meanwhile, any big American place/show bettors should try to open an account in Canada to take advantage of nickel breakage.

[Rook]

The federal government takes several per cent from all triactor and superfecta wagers placed in Canada. Phone your MP.

I would be happy to do that if I thought they were really to blame. I know that the Ontario government only gets 0.5% of the 28.3% Woodbine charges so I'm sure not going to complain to them. I can't find the info. on what the federal government takes in. Do you have a link?

[beertapper]

would the solution ultimately come in the form of actual competition for HPI in Canada? How difficult would it be for an outfit to set up something like Brisbet in Canada?