Death of Consumerism

[bigmack]

I see people constantly shopping. What the hell more do they need?

I've bought quality clothes that last years. I have everything I need. With the execption of food & toiletries I buy nothing and miss nothing about shopping.

I guess it's good for the economy but enough already. Do they give any thought to saving some dough?

[JPinMaryland]

WIth the "Hello Kitty" Digital Camera you can take photos and decorate them with Hello Kitty designs. And you can make a photo album and play games, it's really quite amazing...

[mhrussell]

Nobody except Bill Gates can afford a home and a normal life anymore (a family of 2-3 and pay a mortgage, taxes, food, clothes, car, insurance, utilities, gas, college, retirement, health care, etc. and with TIME to see your wife and family and enjoy it all!). Even good jobs pay crap compared to the financial requirements/demands facing us. So most people do what they can in the face of the impossible: take on as much debt as the banks and credit card companies will give them, buy an expensive car and shop for a lot of 'junk' and 'things' that make them feel better...for a little while until it wears off and they have to buy even more. And , oh yeah, they eat a lot too. That is part of the reason we are all so overweight as a nation. <Yes, I do that too and need to lose about 15 lbs now after the holidays>

I don't have very much, but at least I have a good job, good friends and don't have any debt. But still, I get angy and sometimes I despair too.

Oh yes, I understand the 'why' of all this shopping.. but it's a fools game nonetheless.

[Tom]

I am, therefore I shop.
I heard the USA used 80% of the world's resources, so I am trying to get that up to 85.:cool::p

[Dave Schwartz]

The really amazing thing is to consider the word "consumer," because it is what we are (and do): we consume.

Those of you who are 50+ can remember when you got a television repaired instead of a replacement.

My son totalled his truck last week... It was totalled instead of repaired because they now total a vehicle at 65% of the book value in Nevada.

Consumers. That is us.


Dave

[Bala]

..........What the hell more do they need?.......Books, books and more books >>>

Barbara Tuchman:
"Books are the carriers of civilization. Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a standstill."

Cicero:
"A room without books is like a body without a soul."

Daniel J. Boorstein:
"A wonderful thing about a book, in contrast to a computer screen, is that you can take it to bed with you."



Mhrussell – solid post.

Since 1913 the intrinsic value of our American greenback has been falling. Under ex. Fed. Chairman Alan Greenspan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Greenspan), our currency has been in free fall.

In order to fund the outrageous national debt under GW, the fed has no choice but to increase the money supply (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply). Our money supply as measured be M1 (http://www.theshortrun.com/data/Financial/aggregates/msexplain.html) and M2 (http://www.thestreet.com/tsc/basics/tscglossary/moneysupply.html). These indicators are the best measures of our overall money supply.

In the past 6 years we have seen unprecedented inflation. Most notable manifested it the prices of commodities {oil, gold, coffee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee)etc...} and of course asset inflation (http://www.mises.org/fullstory.aspx?control=1579) in the form of sky high real estate indexes.

Here in the North East it is damned near impossible to buy a home in a decent zip code without signing over you soul to the bank.





_________________________________
Harriet Martineau:
"Readers are plentiful, thinkers are rare"

[JustRalph]

I see people constantly shopping. What the hell more do they need?

I've bought quality clothes that last years. I have everything I need. With the execption of food & toiletries I buy nothing and miss nothing about shopping.

I guess it's good for the economy but enough already. Do they give any thought to saving some dough?

I suggest you broaden your horizons a little...........

[PaceAdvantage]

Daniel J. Boorstein:
"A wonderful thing about a book, in contrast to a computer screen, is that you can take it to bed with you."

The 21st century has caught up with this quote in a big way!

[bigmack]

I suggest you broaden your horizons a little...........
Huh JR? - I've got scads of guitars, 5 pianos, every gadget known to man, 6 cars, 3 houses, 2 cats and "A Partridge in a pear tree". Shall I broaden my horizon to eat more?

[Secretariat]

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761584403/Great_Depression_in_the_United_States.html

"It is a common misconception that the stock market crash of October 1929 was the cause of the Great Depression. The two events were closely related, but both were the results of deep problems in the modern economy that were building up through the “prosperity decade” of the 1920s.

As is typical of post-war periods, Americans in the Roaring Twenties turned inward, away from international issues and social concerns and toward greater individualism. The emphasis was on getting rich and enjoying new fads, new inventions, and new ideas. The traditional values of rural America were being challenged by the city-oriented Jazz Age, symbolized by what many considered the shocking behavior of young women who wore short skirts and makeup, smoked, and drank.

The self-centered attitudes of the 1920s seemed to fit nicely with the needs of the economy. Modern industry had the capacity to produce vast quantities of consumer goods, but this created a fundamental problem: Prosperity could continue only if demand was made to grow as rapidly as supply. Accordingly, people had to be persuaded to abandon such traditional values as saving, postponing pleasures and purchases, and buying only what they needed. “The key to economic prosperity,” a General Motors executive declared in 1929, “is the organized creation of dissatisfaction.” Advertising methods that had been developed to build support for World War I were used to persuade people to buy such relatively new products as automobiles and such completely new ones as radios and household appliances. The resulting mass consumption kept the economy going through most of the 1920s.

But there was an underlying economic problem. Income was distributed very unevenly, and the portion going to the wealthiest Americans grew larger as the decade proceeded. This was due largely to two factors: While businesses showed remarkable gains in productivity during the 1920s, workers got a relatively small share of the wealth this produced. At the same time, huge cuts were made in the top income-tax rates. Between 1923 and 1929, manufacturing output per person-hour increased by 32 percent, but workers’ wages grew by only 8 percent. Corporate profits shot up by 65 percent in the same period, and the government let the wealthy keep more of those profits. The Revenue Act of 1926 cut the taxes of those making $1 million or more by more than two-thirds.

As a result of these trends, in 1929 the top 0.1 percent of American families had a total income equal to that of the bottom 42 percent. This meant that many people who were willing to listen to the advertisers and purchase new products did not have enough money to do so. To get around this difficulty, the 1920s produced another innovation—“credit,” an attractive name for consumer debt. People were allowed to “buy now, pay later.” But this only put off the day when consumers accumulated so much debt that they could not keep buying up all the products coming off assembly lines. That day came in 1929."

...

You got to like that GM exec quote:

“The key to economic prosperity,” a General Motors executive declared in 1929, “is the organized creation of dissatisfaction.”

Planned obsolescence, and repackaging in a newer, improved version always helps. Consumerism.

Very good article in Encarta above on the Depression and how debt (Skate's favorite economic policy) helped lead to the worst drop in stock market history.

[PaceAdvantage]

Sec,

Are you reprinting multiple paragraphs of copyrighted material again, or did you get Microsoft's permission to reproduce that text here?

[JPinMaryland]

100-200 words is still a good yardstick for how much can copied under fair use. Goes back to some old cases involving Marie Curie etc.

[Bala]

......But there was an underlying economic problem.Income was distributed very unevenly, and the portion going to the wealthiest Americans grew larger as the decade proceeded....... What is your proposal to correct this alleged imbalance?

Should we increase the minimum wage to $100 an hour? All those poor unskilled worker must be starving to death on heartless streets across America. We could cut the compensation of doctors, engineers, computer programmer, accountants, etc..... in half and transfer all that wealth to the poorest of the poor.

O' now I remember. This has been done in other nations with such wonderful results.

Sec – why don't you come out and just admit it. You hate America. Fidal Castro would love to have you as his successor.

All the years you have been in this country, is there one positive thing you can say about this great nation? Where do you get your ideas? Is Louis Farrakhan your hero? Do you live in a homeless shelter and post on a library computer? Is your life really that bad? Have you personally ever made more than $4.00 an hour? Do you give to the less fortunate? Was Santa unkind to you in your youth?



The great depression (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression) has been studied and is not mysterious. There are two primary causes of the great depression. A very young Federal Reserve Bank (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System)mismanaging the money supply and Smoot-Hawley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smoot-Hawley_Tariff) Act. This act {tariff} essentially closed free trade across the ports of America. A tariff the democrats would love to reinstate today.



__________________________________________________
A quick temper will make a fool of you soon enough. - Bruce Lee

I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times. - Bruce Lee

[bigmack]

Without going tangentially adrift Bala, Sec quoted:

“The key to economic prosperity,” a General Motors executive declared in 1929, “is the organized creation of dissatisfaction.”

The latter portion of that quote bears some thought.

I don't know which is worse for many people in the US of late: The need to "keep up" or the need to spend until they're tapped out? In either case, a maj of the MidClass in America are DOOMED.

[Bala]

So this is why GM is nearly bankrupt.

More doom and gloom – a contrarian would buy stocks!




________________________________________
Win or lose, we go shopping after the election. - Imelda Marcos

Whoever said money can't buy happiness simply didn't know where to go shopping. - Bo Derek

[chickenhead]

Credit cards are like crack cocaine. I think a lot of people just haven't learned how much more pleasant it is to have someone paying you interest on your money, rather than paying someone else for theirs.

I'm happy to say my own savings rate is up to 20%. Hoping to move that up even more soon.

Leveraged good investments = Very Very Good

Leveraged consumption = Very Very Bad

[The Judge]

At the super market I see more and more credit cards being used. I know some are debit cards and I'm sure some people pay the entire balance due at the end of the month. I'm am likewise sure some of these are real life credit card purchases.

Interest on a new jacket maybe, but interest on an apple, something seems wrong.

[GameTheory]

At the super market I see more and more credit cards being used. I know some are debit cards and I'm sure some people pay the entire balance due at the end of the month. I'm am likewise sure some of these are real life credit card purchases.

Interest on a new jacket maybe, but interest on an apple, something seems wrong.I very rarely use cash for anything other than the drive-through window. Debit card for practically everything. I don't even write checks for any bills any more -- I might write 15 checks a year if that.

[PlanB]

I wonder if Credit Card companys are making less on late pay penalties? The net makes it so easy to pay bills. I'm happy to say we have minimum credit card debt, but our apartment mortage & maintenance makes it seem much worse. I think it could be better to pay down our mortage faster, but I not sure.

[JustRalph]

Huh JR? - I've got scads of guitars, 5 pianos, every gadget known to man, 6 cars, 3 houses, 2 cats and "A Partridge in a pear tree". Shall I broaden my horizon to eat more?

mack......sounds like you are living a very full life. But there is always something new, a new interest. Learn to fly yet? Go buy an Airplane........I know what you mean about Guitar's but haven't settled on a piano yet. Waiting to build the next house.

Open another business.........you can't tell me a guy with 6 cars and 3 houses can't find something new to challenge him........... come on?

[Bala]

Credit cards are like crack cocaine Perhaps to some folks who have an obsessive personality. Just like our game where there are compulsive gambler.

The overall bankruptcy rate in America is 4%. This rate is lower than most developed countries.

I personally use cards all the time. I pay 0.0% interest. I open accounts for the promotional period. { 6 months to 1 years depending on your credit rating} If I still have a balance once the promotional period is over, I close the account - open a new one with another bank for another promotional interest free time period.

The main tenets of this tread is consumerism is bad and big corporations are even worse. Nonsense. Suff (http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=33212) recently posted a link to the Federal govt. most recent census data. The latest data clearly shows most Americans are employed by small to mid size business not by large conglomerats. Although mega corporation wield mega influence in the halls of congress, most corporation are run by highly competent board members.

This is democracy in action. People {consumers} vote {purchase} with their dollars. Who is to say the consumer is spending to much? Some left wing poster on a bulletin board?

American capitalism = freedom of personal choice.
Left wing – I know what is better for you – socialism = slavery.

Modern business in America is healthy. However, govt. is not! If Hurricane Katrina and 9/11 thought us anything – it is that govt. will always be a day late and a dollar short.

The greatest single threat to the middle class is govt. spending of taxpayers dollars. The twin deficits {total federal debt and the trade deficit} orchestrated by the papa Bush carried out by Billy Boy Clinton {NAFTA and GATT} culminating with the current occupant of the White House and that dome of monkeys' {republican congress.}

This is your money that is being spent like its Zsa Zsa Gabors (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/z/zsa_zsa_gabor.html) last day on Earth. Don't even mention to me GW socialist welfare policy to big business. {farm subsidiary}

Capitalist America = work
Socialist America {Bush's' policies} = bankruptcy.

PS: for crying out loud – clink on a sponsored link!!! Even if for a second. PA is an excellent example of small business in action.





___________________________________________

I have enough money to last me the rest of my
life, unless I buy something. - Jackie Mason

I take Him shopping with me. I say, OK, Jesus,
help me find a bargain - Tammy Faye Bakker

If a 13-year-old is buying eggs, it is probably
not for breakfast. - Kris Pedersen

When women are depressed, they either eat or go
shopping. Men invade another country. It's a
whole different way of thinking. - Elaine Boosler

Money can't buy you happiness, but it does bring
you a more pleasant form of misery. - Spike Milligan

Each success only buys an admission ticket to a
more difficult problem. - Henry A. Kissinger

[Secretariat]

What is your proposal to correct this alleged imbalance?

My intention in posting this was to show similarities between the massive tax cuts to the wealthy in '26 which did not filter down to the average worker's pay, but instead lead to a huge division between CEO's and the rank and file. Suggest you read the article.

My proposal is certainly NOT to follow the same course that lead towards the Great Depression with huge divisions in wealth and massive debt and credit.

At this point I beleive the first recourse is to reinstitute tax increases for millionaires, and luxury taxes on escessive CEO bonuses.


Should we increase the minimum wage to $100 an hour?

No, but enough to keep up with inflation and match that as it was in the 70's. I don't think that would hurt CEO bonuses too much, and actually might help those at the bottom to pay their rent.



[font=Verdana, sans-serif][size=2]Sec – why don't you come out and just admit it. You hate America. Fidal Castro would love to have you as his successor.

The stereotypical tired old refrain of the extreme right. If you want to help the poor, you're Castro, (strangely never Christ). I guess I just don't want to be J.P. Morgan who said "I don't owe the public anything." btw...I love America..fought for it in the jungles, and still fighting for it to prevent it from falling into the hands of greedy bastards.



[font=Verdana, sans-serif][size=2]All the years you have been in this country, is there one positive thing you can say about this great nation?

Omigod, yes. I see positive things everyday. Unfortunately, most are by people working for often very low pay to actually help people rather than in certain board rooms where people help themselves.


Where do you get your ideas?

Mostly Jefferson and Madison, but many others such as Christ.


[size=2]Have you personally ever made more than $4.00 an hour?

I've made less than 4.00 an hour and more than 70.00 an hour.


Do you give to the less fortunate?

The less fortunate? No, I do not give to the Republican Party.

Just St. Jude, an environmental group, the local homeless shelter and a couple of AIDS groups. Wish I could give more.

[chickenhead]

Perhaps to some folks who have an obsessive personality. Just like our game where there are compulsive gambler.



Uhh, those are the people this thread is about. Conspicous consumptours. People living beyond their means.

I look at it kind of like the cargo cultists. People think somehow if they spend as if they were wealthy, they will somehow become wealthy. Rather than realize they need to find out how the wealthy behaved in order to become wealthy in the first place. Typically that WAS NOT spending every last dime and then some on buying consumable goods.

4% bankruptcy? Is that a yearly figure? I thought it was lower than that, around 2% of households. Either way...you have to assume it's not the same 4% every year, right? 4% this year...a different 4% next year....a different 4% the next year....add em up pretty soon you're talking some pretty high percents, eh?

But you're right, this is America. People are free to act like fools...and other people are free to comment on it.

[Bala]

.....America. People are free to act like fools..... Your making to many assumptions not supported by the evidence.

The primary credit reporting agencies, Equifax, Experian, and Transunion maintain detailed stats as to the financial health of Americans. There are also other data miner – Checkpoint, Acxiom etc.... maintain even more information then the credit bureaus. This data and the surrounding conclusions are essentially to banking, insurance and many other industries.

The state of the Union is released quarterly by these corporation and some others. The overwhelming conclusion is Americans are in fact financially responsible. Perhaps your circle of friends/acquaintances have different experiences. However, the data and conclusion drawn from the credit bureaus are pretty good.

Bankruptcy question: the 4% figure is projected for the current year. Interestingly, this figure is somewhat higher then in past years. Probably due to the recent revision of the bankruptcy laws on a federal level. {law of unintended consequence} Other sources for stats >> bankrate.com, your local Federal Reserve Bank.

....have to assume it's not the same 4% every year, right? 4% this year...a different 4% next year....a different 4% the next year....add em up pretty soon you're talking some pretty high percents, eh?...... Of that 4% figure, at least half of all bankruptcies are due to poor health reasons.

Just think about this logically. If this was the case would there be a banking sector in our economy. Citibank, Bank of America would be in desperate shape. Banks are in great shape because people pay their bills.

And finally, our economy is the envy of the world. This alone speaks for itself.



________________________________________


"Shopping is better than sex. If you're not satisfied after shopping you can make an exchange for something you really like.” - Adrienne Gusoff

“I love to go shopping. I love to freak out salespeople. They ask me if they can help me, and I say, "Have you got anything I'd like?" Then they ask me what size I need, and I say, "Extra medium." - Stephen Wright

"I always say shopping is cheaper than a psychiatrist.” - Tammy Faye Bakker

[Bala]

.....The stereotypical tired old refrain of the extreme right. If you want to help the poor, you're Castro, (strangely never Christ). I guess I just don't want to be J.P. Morgan who said "I don't owe the public anything." btw...I love America..fought for it in the jungles, and still fighting for it to prevent it from falling into the hands of greedy bastards..... Sir, I salute you for serving our country.

Since you brought up Jesus:
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." - 2 Thessalonians 3:10

in context of 2 Thessalonians 3

verse 6} In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."


Referencing the JP Morgan quote: Curiously you look for quotes to fit your political agenda. Only multimillionaire misers. Never a quote from Walt Disney, Carnegie, Mellon, etc... Today, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and many other philanthropist who have given vast oceans of money back into society.

Not to be insulting to a veteran, but you lack objectivity.


BTW: Morgan saved our govt. from bankruptcy.
http://www.apfn.net/Doc-100_bankruptcy.htm



_________________
Character is destiny.

[chickenhead]

Not sure what you are really arguing here...a lot of people spend foolishly...I know a bunch that do. You are arguing that they don't? You're arguing I have a statistically unlikely sampling of acquaintances? That's highly doubtful.

I don't know anyone who has declared bankruptcy. I know a bunch who pay a goodly portion of what would otherwise be free income to satisfy credit card interest. In my opinion, that is very foolish.

Someone only defaults when they have f'ed up so bad it's unsustainable. My point is that just because something is sustainable, doesn't mean it's not idiotic.

[JPinMaryland]

Curiously you look for quotes to fit your political agenda....




I think he does this so you can follow his argument.

[Bala]

I think he does this so you can follow his argument. While ignoring/avoiding other avenues of reasoning? I should hope no handicapper is so closed minded.

__________________________________________________ _____


Secretariat -- If I am to understand your solution, you advocate for the return of Jimmy Carter economic policy?!?


The minimum wage should be a mute point. It has been proposed the minimum wage be indexed to inflation. A yearly increase just like social security payments. Guess what, the democrats have opposed this sensible solution every time it comes up. The party of the people, yea right.

I will agree with you the tax code is hopelessly unfair. For the middle class this unfairness is largely reflected in the Alternative Minimum Tax. { ATM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_Minimum_Tax) } A truly vile piece of extortion.

Otherwise >>>
An enormous percentage of taxes are payed by a minority of Americans:
The Top 1% of taxpayers pay 29% of all taxes. The Top 1% of income earners (comprising about 1 million families) earn about 15% of the total income earned by all wage earners in the United States, yet they pay 29% of all individual income taxes.

The Top 5% of taxpayers pay 50% of all taxes.
Poor people hardly pay any tax at all.

"Our tax system is not so much progressive as it is confiscatory" -- Frederic Bastiat

I wonder .... how much super rich Nancy Pelosi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Pelosi) pays in Taxes. And man of the people Teddy boy {Kennedy} who's Kennedy clan has wrote the book on offshore tax havens, pay in taxes. Democrats=do what I say not what I do.




_____________________________________
Taxes, after all, are dues that we pay for the privileges of membership in an organized society. ~ Franklin D. Roosevelt

The taxpayer - that's someone who works for the federal government but doesn't have to take the civil service examination. ~ Ronald Reagan

Why does a slight tax increase cost you two hundred dollars and a substantial tax cut save you thirty cents? ~ Peg Bracken

[Secretariat]

Sir, I salute you for serving our country.

Since you brought up Jesus:
For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." - 2 Thessalonians 3:10

in context of 2 Thessalonians 3

verse 6} In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching you received from us. For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, nor did we eat anyone's food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to make ourselves a model for you to follow. For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat."


Referencing the JP Morgan quote: Curiously you look for quotes to fit your political agenda. Only multimillionaire misers. Never a quote from Walt Disney, Carnegie, Mellon, etc... Today, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett and many other philanthropist who have given vast oceans of money back into society.

Not to be insulting to a veteran, but you lack objectivity.


BTW: Morgan saved our govt. from bankruptcy.
http://www.apfn.net/Doc-100_bankruptcy.htm
_________________
Character is destiny.

You say "I" bring up quotes to serve my agenda, yet in quoting Christ, you ignore this from Matthew:

"19:21. Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

19:22. And when the young man had heard this word, he went away sad: for he had great possessions

19:23. Then Jesus said to his disciples: Amen, I say to you, that a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

19:24. And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

...

Then you ignore what many quotes I;ve posted previously from Gates or Buffet, and say I haven't quoted them. Not true, search my posts. I admire particularly the philanthropy of Gates and Buffet and Mellon. This is what all wealthy men should do. It is a duty to the public, not as JP Morgan claims.

btw.. in your second post, the other men I never even mentioned Carter. Others include Dickens who warns on the danger of credit, and shows us many villains of greed, and Twain, a master.

...

13:22. And he that received the seed among thorns, is he that heareth the word, and the care of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choketh up the word, and he becometh fruitless.

...

As to the tax system, when it was initially set up as a progressive system and the amendment was added to the constitution, you do realize that the wealthy paid "ALL" the taxes. In other words when the amendment was added to the Constitution, the intent was that the wealthiest would pay what they reaped from the system. So it is not a matter of them paying more of the taxes, paying all of the taxes was what was intended when the income tax was originated, by those founding fathers of the tax code.

...

Also nowhere do I defend inherited wealth whether that be Rockefeller, or Kennedy. It's not a party issue with me on this. I admire those who are wealthy who are willing to have a larger slice of the pie taken from them to support the country espeically in times of war. That to me is patriotic.

[Dave Schwartz]

"19:21. Jesus saith to him: If thou wilt be perfect, go sell what thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle


Sec,

"Poor" and "idle" are not the same.


19:24. And again I say to you: It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

But do you know the meaning of this? It must be in context!

It means that most wealthy men are "self-made." As such, they have learned to rely on themselves and are often incapable of relying on God. Proverbs 3:5-9 addresses that quite nicely:

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [a]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

8 This will bring health to your body
and nourishment to your bones.

9 Honor the LORD with your wealth,
with the firstfruits of all your crops;




Regards,
Dave Schwartz
who has memorized about 5 Bible verses

[Bala]

Secretariat -- It is probable our great divide on this issue is the very definition of poor. How do you define poor?

In America “poor” people have had welfare programs, food stamps, and free medical coverage, free education for decades. All paid for my taxpayers. The poorest congressional district is the South Bronx right here in New York. In modern day poor America – some “poor” folks own cars, most all have multiple TVs, vcr/dvd player, and of course bling-bling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bling-bling). I recall the many “poor” people of hurricane Katrina. Most everyone I've seen was 300 pounds.


The income tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax) was first devised as a way to pay for the Civil War. After the war, the tax was repelled only to make a comeback to fund WWI. At which time it was made permanent. We can have a fair tax. We must once again repeal the income tax and institute a consumption tax. I would keep the so called death tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_tax).

With a consumption tax, producers should not be taxes and consumers should be taxed. This would solve Bigmack's dilemma since he started this tread.

.... your second post, the other man I never even mentioned Carter.... I know this. However, your solution for alleged economic inequality is right out of Jimmy's playbook. Extort the producers and give their money to the unskilled.

....You say "I" bring up quotes to serve my agenda, yet in quoting Christ, you ignore this from Matthew.... All the biblical quotes clearly refer to the love of money. If a soul love material things more than the divine - you will not make it into heaven/paradise.


But your heart is in the right place.

[Secretariat]

Sec,

"Poor" and "idle" are not the same.

He doesn't make your distinction in his above quote.


But do you know the meaning of this? It must be in context!

That's why I quoted Matthew directly without breaking it up.



It means that most wealthy men are "self-made." As such, they have learned to rely on themselves and are often incapable of relying on God. Proverbs 3:5-9 addresses that quite nicely:

5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart
and lean not on your own understanding;

6 in all your ways acknowledge him,
and he will make your paths straight. [a]

7 Do not be wise in your own eyes;
fear the LORD and shun evil.

8 This will bring health to your body
and nourishment to your bones.

9 Honor the LORD with your wealth,
with the firstfruits of all your crops;

Regards,
Dave Schwartz
who has memorized about 5 Bible verses

I agree with this but Christ speaks specifically to "riches", not to being a self-made man. Regardless, reading the Matthew quote it deasl specfically with being to give up one's possessions as the "man walked away sadly."

[Secretariat]

Secretariat -- It is probable our great divide on this issue is the very definition of poor. How do you define poor?

Well, there is poor in spirit, and poor in material wealth. I'm speaking more of those poor in material wealth. The governemnt has set poverty thresholds on defining what constitutes poverty. I'l defer to that, and it has been rising every year since 2001 according to the Bureau of Labor and Statistics.

In America “poor” people have had welfare programs, food stamps, and free medical coverage, free education for decades. All paid for by taxpayers. The poorest congressional district is the South Bronx right here in New York. In modern day poor America – some “poor” folks own cars, most all have multiple TVs, vcr/dvd player, and of course bling-bling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bling-bling). I recall the many “poor” people of hurricane Katrina. Most everyone I've seen was 300 pounds.

whew...first, the 3-- pound Katrina reference. Obviously, you would not exchange places with this guy who has ti so easy. 300 pounds does not mean a guy is NOT poor. It may mean he is eating improperly or has a thyroid condition, or doesn't have the money to afford much but cheap bread and carbs, but is a "poor" analogy on what constitutes "poor". Many of those in NO were "poor" and did not have the money to get out becasue they had nowhere to go they could afford or had no cars of their own.

Prior to FDR many of those "poor" did not have welfare, food stamps, and free medical coverage. If you read the conditions of the poor and their abuses in the early part of this century and the last it is reprehensible, hence those initiatives to help our fellow man rather than the JP Morgans, which accelerated under FDR.

Your reference to "most all have multiple TVs, vcr/dvd player" etc...belies the true story. One, the poor cannot afford yet still desire to have things which are marketed to them daily. They make poor decisions and buy on credit. They generally don't have homes, but rent. They don't go to private schools, but go to public schools. I am against abuses in the welfare system, but not agaisnt welfare. However, the amount of abuse I see in lobbying for corporate preferences overwhelms the non-existent welfare lobby. Poor people don't have the money to lobby for more welfare. It is only our conscious that lends a helping hand to those less fortunate than ourselves.

As to taxes. No one likes to pay taxes, and there is even more argument on how those taxes are spent. For example, I've seen a half a trillion flushed down the toilet in Iraq. You may see it differently. I would have contributed enough to get every soldier home ASAP.

What is a "fair" tax? This is the debate. "Fair" means differently things to each other. I am looking at the rates during when the amendment was passed, and the intent at that time was that the wealthy would pay since they reaped the benefits of our society the most. Since that time the wealthy have tried to get lower and lower rates than was initially intended. "Fair" is in the eyes of the beholder. If I was a billionaire I'd expect to pay a LOT higher percentage of my income. If I was making 20K a year I'd expect to pay at a LOT lower rate. It's at the core of the beginning of the tax system when the amendment was passed.

[Bala]

Sec – I found your post interesting and quite telling.

You said a mouth full. This is the fundamental difference between the Left and Right. The Left ... always looking for excuses. The right ... the individual must take responsible for his/her own life.

I've been to Mardi Gras (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mardi_Gras) in NO. I can tell you from personally observation those 300 pounders were actively engaged in gluttony. Certainly not all but many. As far as Katrina, it is not national taxpayers fault that the democratic Mayor and democratic Governor were grossly incompetent.

the poor cannot afford yet still desire to have things which are marketed to them daily Your not seriously insinuating that some people in society are incapable of making decisions in their best interest? How elitist of you! So we just maintain the status quo {hand outs} and expect nothing of the underprivileged/unskilled in society.


.....lobbying for corporate preferences..... It disgusts me knowing this prez. has aggressively adopted socialists welfare for some big corporations. Most notably coal/oil and farm subsidy. What we need thru out our economy is more capitalism and less favoritism.



______________________________
People will buy anything that is 'one to a customer.' ~ Sinclair Lewis

Wal-mart... do they like make walls there? ~ Paris Hilton

We used to build civilizations. Now we build shopping malls. ~ Bill Bryson

[linrom1]

The income tax was first devised as a way to pay for the Civil War. After the war, the tax was repelled only to make a comeback to fund WWI. At which time it was made permanent. We can have a fair tax. We must once again repeal the income tax and institute a consumption tax. I would keep the so called death tax.

Consumption like flat tax favors the rich. Progressive tax like US had before reactionary Reagan took office is the best solution--70% top line.

[Secretariat]

Your not seriously insinuating that some people in society are incapable of making decisions in their best interest?How elitist of you!

Without question some people in society are incapable of making decisions in their best interest. I don't see this as elitist, but realistic.

One sees guys at the track everyday make decisions in their worst interest. A person who goes heavily into hock to buy his kids things he can't afford for them is acting in his wrost financial interest. A woman who sells her body for a fix. A person who believes the Cubs will ever win the World Series. A poor person who votes Republican.

There are thousands of examples of people who are incapable of making decisions in their best interest. Many Republicans and some Democrats beleive that women who have abortions are not making decisions in their best interest. The list goes on. There are thousands of financial advisors who will tell you that you are incapable of making decisions in your best interest w/o professional guidance. Nutritionally, a 300 pound guy from NO may very well have never had the benefits of being able to hire a professional trainer, and nutritionist to help him/her get themselves into shape.

I figure this is part of the freedom of America to make decisions, good and bad. But certainly many of us are incapable of making decisions that are always in ours and the societies best interest in tandem. When that conflict arises between the self, and the society then we have debate and laws.

btw.. I always thought the Civil War income Tax was later declared unconstitutional, and it took the 16th amendment to make it legal.

Agree with linrom1 on progressive vs consumption tax. The 16th amendment was based on a progressive income tax approach as consumption could always be taxes. Consumption tax as a percentage of income hits the little man way harder - for example, the gasoline tax. 70%? It's closerr to Eisenhower's and Nixon's and Ford's rates.

[bigmack]

Consumption tax as a percentage of income hits the little man way harder - for example, the gasoline tax. 70%?
Sec - 70?

http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp

[JustRalph]

Without question some people in society are incapable of making decisions in their best interest. I don't see this as elitist, but realistic.

One sees guys at the track everyday make decisions in their worst interest. A person who goes heavily into hock to buy his kids things he can't afford for them is acting in his wrost financial interest. A woman who sells her body for a fix. A person who believes the Cubs will ever win the World Series. A poor person who votes Republican.

There are thousands of examples of people who are incapable of making decisions in their best interest. Many Republicans and some Democrats beleive that women who have abortions are not making decisions in their best interest. The list goes on. There are thousands of financial advisors who will tell you that you are incapable of making decisions in your best interest w/o professional guidance. Nutritionally, a 300 pound guy from NO may very well have never had the benefits of being able to hire a professional trainer, and nutritionist to help him/her get themselves into shape.
I figure this is part of the freedom of America to make decisions, good and bad. But certainly many of us are incapable of making decisions that are always in ours and the societies best interest in tandem. When that conflict arises between the self, and the society then we have debate and laws.

btw.. I always thought the Civil War income Tax was later declared unconstitutional, and it took the 16th amendment to make it legal.

Agree with linrom1 on progressive vs consumption tax. The 16th amendment was based on a progressive income tax approach as consumption could always be taxes. Consumption tax as a percentage of income hits the little man way harder - for example, the gasoline tax. 70%? It's closerr to Eisenhower's and Nixon's and Ford's rates.

This post says everything about the differences in the Left and the Right. Wow! Btw, the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified.

The part that I made bold is pure proof that you want to relieve people of the responsibility for taking care of themselves. Amazing how you get away with this garbage..........

[Secretariat]

This post says everything about the differences in the Left and the Right. Wow! Btw, the 16th Amendment was never properly ratified.



Try uisng that argument at an IRS audit.


To Big mack,

I was referring to the upper income tax rates during Eisenhower, Nixon, and Ford, not the gas tax. Sorry for any confusion.

[bigmack]

Consumption tax as a percentage of income hits the little man way harder - for example, the gasoline tax. 70%? It's closerr to Eisenhower's and Nixon's and Ford's rates.
What do you think of a guy like Rob Reiner that taxes the bejesus out of cigarettes while a majority of cig smokers are lower socio economic?

[JustRalph]

Try uisng that argument at an IRS audit.


To Big mack,

I was referring to the upper income tax rates during Eisenhower, Nixon, and Ford, not the gas tax. Sorry for any confusion.

I am familiar with those that have............ it doesn't make it right

[richrosa]

not to shift back this topic but I want to verify Bala's factual statements about bankrupcies and the credit card and reporting industries. My day job is working directly with credit card companies and agencies who provide such data.

Americans are responsible debt consumers, however there are many consumers who are not. About $60 billion in debt is written off every year from just defaulted credit card debtors. Many of these people as Bala described have health issues. I'd add matrimonial, employment, and substance as other influences to the default rate. For many of these people, their status as defaulted debtors is temporary or cyclical. Many of them repair their situation and come back in again as model debtors, only to sometimes default again years later when their situations change.

Personally, knowing what I know about personal debt and debtors, I choose to do my best avoid incurring any personal debt, which tends to become long-term, even though that was not its intent. I cannot recommend the 0% interest transfer game, because that well has started to dry up with less creditors using that as an acquisition tactic except on the most creditworthy (FICO >700).

[Tom]

Sec, on a related topic - min wage went up in NYS yesterday.
24 local eateries and convenient stores were polled ( you like polls, right?)
without exception, all 24 raised prices within the last week to pay for the wage increase. 12 laid off at least one person anyway. 5 cancelled plans to hire a new person in the first quater.
Now, unless the rich are living on pizza and beer and lunch meat, nobody got hurt by the price increases except the lower income people.
Great country, eh?

In a rather small sample, 17 jobs lost, prices upped, the buden all on the low income people.

Yup, incresing the min wage sure did it's job.

[Secretariat]

Sec, on a related topic - min wage went up in NYS yesterday.
24 local eateries and convenient stores were polled ( you like polls, right?)
without exception, all 24 raised prices within the last week to pay for the wage increase. 12 laid off at least one person anyway. 5 cancelled plans to hire a new person in the first quater.
Now, unless the rich are living on pizza and beer and lunch meat, nobody got hurt by the price increases except the lower income people.
Great country, eh?

In a rather small sample, 17 jobs lost, prices upped, the buden all on the low income people.

Yup, incresing the min wage sure did it's job.

Tom,

Anecdotal.

If you do research on the long term effects of minimum wage, the effects to layoffs, and price increases is minimal. However, the lack of a minimal wage increase is in effect a huge tax increase every year on those effected since they lose that money to the cost of inflation. I could discuss a lot about this issue, but this is not what this thread is about.

[Tom]

When did that ever stop you before?:rolleyes: