View Full Version : Gulfstream pay as you go for horse racing side
point given
12-24-2006, 09:07 PM
Now the Florida horsemen pay for outside saddling and temporary stands at Gulfstream. Then the Magna creeps also take over part of the first floor clubhouse for , u guessed it , more slots. This is in complete contradiction to what they stated in November, saying that the additional slots would go in a separate building. LIARS that they are. :liar: :liar: :liar:
"Moving the second phase of slots into the Gulfstream clubhouse is a reversal of what track officials have said recently. In a conference call on third-quarter earnings held in early November, Magna CFO Blake Tohana said the company was still considering its options, but it wasn't likely that the remaining allotment of slots would go in the existing plant. "We're still going through the planning and design stages for the phase two . . . because we're going to need a separate building to house that facility," Tohana said at the time. " :liar:
"
FHBPA Pledges $1M to Gulfstream Development
The commitment from the FHBPA is intended to offset the costs of completed construction of a new outside saddling ring and accompanying stalls, as well as the installation of temporary stands to hold an additional 500 to 600 patrons. The payments will be paid out over five years, said FHBPA president Sam Gordon. "
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36825
As many have said and discussed, VLT's are not the "exclusive" answer, not by any stretch of the imagination. There are many, perhaps some "hard core" players who have opposed VLT's from the get go. The major concern, right from the very beginning, has always been "where does the money go" -- meaning, will track ownership/management put money back into the "racing" side of the game? We have seen plans for backstretch improvement. I have supported that time and time again. We've seen plans for BEAT (Backstretch Employee Assistance Teams) programs, and educational programs. That too is great.
However, we've also seen our concerns happen. Finger Lakes is the perfect example. Delaware North took an "ROI" approach and when it was time to decide between a turf course and renovating the VLT side of the facility -- the money went to the VLT side. Now, that was Finger Lakes. Gulfstream, and several others will not fall victim to that methodology.
There MUST be nice facilities for the racing side of the game -- for the owners, players, fans, etc. Nice restaurants, bars/lounges, and all of the things that make a fantastic facility for horse players. If the horsemen have to pay for some of this, so be it. That is an investment in our game. This will assure that racing will not only survive but thrive as we look to the future. OTB/Teletheaters, poker, full blown casinos will be more and more common -- and is more competition. Racing, and the people behind it must step up and take their place at the table.
Eric
the little guy
12-25-2006, 12:08 AM
The situation at Gulfstream will get worse....not better. This has been obvious to everyone, as even the misguided Stronach defenders have been silent for some time, and what is discussed in this thread was mentioned here last year. It was common knowledge that one of the two " simulcast areas " was going to become a slot facility once they were approved. The third floor restaurant has already been effectively turned over to slot players. The entire staff from last year has been let go and it is now a buffet at $25 a head. I guess this works twofold....buffets are faster so there can be a quick turnover for slot players and I guess it's easier ( and cheaper ) to comp the bigger slot suckers.
We're horsplayers...i.e. scum......and any of us that foolishly think we have any standing among slot players are in for a rude awakening. Did anyone honestly look at the pathetic excuse for a racetrack that Stronach built on the site of a former racetrack in Hallandale and think we weren't being pushed aside? If so I have a bridge I want to sell you.
For racing fans Gulfstream is a " racetrack " best enjoyed on the internet.
Good time to re-open Hialeah? Who owns it now?
point given
12-25-2006, 06:52 PM
Good time to re-open Hialeah? Who owns it now?
Same as before, Brunetti. Would love to see it opened and kick Gulfstreams arse, except, I think I read that the barns were torn down.
CryingForTheHorses
12-25-2006, 08:53 PM
The situation at Gulfstream will get worse....not better. This has been obvious to everyone, as even the misguided Stronach defenders have been silent for some time, and what is discussed in this thread was mentioned here last year. It was common knowledge that one of the two " simulcast areas " was going to become a slot facility once they were approved. The third floor restaurant has already been effectively turned over to slot players. The entire staff from last year has been let go and it is now a buffet at $25 a head. I guess this works twofold....buffets are faster so there can be a quick turnover for slot players and I guess it's easier ( and cheaper ) to comp the bigger slot suckers.
We're horsplayers...i.e. scum......and any of us that foolishly think we have any standing among slot players are in for a rude awakening. Did anyone honestly look at the pathetic excuse for a racetrack that Stronach built on the site of a former racetrack in Hallandale and think we weren't being pushed aside? If so I have a bridge I want to sell you.
For racing fans Gulfstream is a " racetrack " best enjoyed on the internet.
Geeze you really have it in for Stronach!!
the little guy
12-25-2006, 10:10 PM
Geeze you really have it in for Stronach!!
Feel free to tell me which part is not true.
highnote
12-26-2006, 05:15 AM
Feel free to tell me which part is not true.
I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but I feel complelled to respond anyway.
Seems to me, Stronach is a capitalist (duh) and a realist. He owns a huge plant called Gulfstream Park. He knows Magna racing can't survive if it doesn't turn a profit. Slots are raining money him. It was the anticipation of slot money that motivated him to "renovate" GP. This money will help the other Magna tracks survive. I would guess that all Magna tracks will one day have slots. Those that don't will be sold. Although, I can see him holding onto Pimlico, sans slots, because it must be great to own a track that hosts a triple crown race.
IMHO, slots are here to stay. Racing can't survive without them -- not even New York racing can survive without them. It is a sad time for our sport. However, what is that saying -- "It is darkest before the dawn."? Maybe brighter days are ahead for racing?
Or maybe what "darkest before dawn" really means is that "hope springs eternal"?
karlskorner
12-26-2006, 10:05 AM
Overall I think the media and those who are in it, what ever form, are down on Sronach, he cut the Press Box in half, no more free lunches, no open bar at 4 PM, as he realized the the media was " ignoring " horse racing. Aside from the local newspapers who carry a column or two, plus previous days charts and today enteries there is no local TV coverage, the media has put horse racing on the " back burner " throughout the country. Putting the "slots" within the plant for now is only termporary, he has the only Class 3 slots in the State of Florida ( for now ) and the place is jumping and an additonal 1000 slots come the begining of next year. The media is living in the past with " what was ", Mr. Stronach is heading for the future and "what will be".
the little guy
12-26-2006, 10:32 AM
Overall I think the media and those who are in it, what ever form, are down on Sronach, he cut the Press Box in half, no more free lunches, no open bar at 4 PM, as he realized the the media was " ignoring " horse racing. Aside from the local newspapers who carry a column or two, plus previous days charts and today enteries there is no local TV coverage, the media has put horse racing on the " back burner " throughout the country. Putting the "slots" within the plant for now is only termporary, he has the only Class 3 slots in the State of Florida ( for now ) and the place is jumping and an additonal 1000 slots come the begining of next year. The media is living in the past with " what was ", Mr. Stronach is heading for the future and "what will be".
Correct me if I'm wrong...but weren't you a pressbox leech for years? Seems you spent a great deal of time there.
By the way, blaming the Gulfstream situation on the media is the most ridiculous displacement of guilt I have ever seen. I mean, I realize you are the king of spin, never addressing any issue head on, and circling all conversations while never answering a direct question, but this post of yours borders on the insane. Are we to believe that Stronach has provided no room for comfort for the fans because people in the press don't like the new pressbox? Are we to believe that the restaurant is now almost exclusively devoted to slots players because the press doesn't like the new pressbox? Are we to believe that there isn't a blade of grass outside of the infield because the press doesn't like the pressbox? Are we to believe that the seating situation is cramped and uncomfortable because the press doesn't like the press box?
The only reason racing is being run at Gulfstream is because it has to in order for it to house slots....period. I guess this too is because the press doesn't like the new pressbox.
Robert Fischer
12-26-2006, 10:57 AM
There have been some capitalists and vicious ones at that, who yet multiplied their wealth by , offering a product competitive in price and value, and with creative foresight and marketing techniques.
The mentality of the horse racing industry needs a "freshening".
point given
12-26-2006, 10:58 AM
Overall I think the media and those who are in it, what ever form, are down on Sronach, he cut the Press Box in half, no more free lunches, no open bar at 4 PM, as he realized the the media was " ignoring " horse racing. Aside from the local newspapers who carry a column or two, plus previous days charts and today enteries there is no local TV coverage, the media has put horse racing on the " back burner " throughout the country. Putting the "slots" within the plant for now is only termporary, he has the only Class 3 slots in the State of Florida ( for now ) and the place is jumping and an additonal 1000 slots come the begining of next year. The media is living in the past with " what was ", Mr. Stronach is heading for the future and "what will be".
Where did you read that , " Putting the "slots" within the plant for now is only termporary, " ? The article clearly states that they changed their minds from their previous announcments of a separate building. While I realized that slots would be the driving force here, I didnot think that a " horseman" like Stronach, who purports to love the sport, would turn his horse customers out to a distant paddock. These are not the actions of someone who loves the sport. There is no balance to what he has done to Gulfstream. The horsemen are only looking out for themselves, in larger slot fueled purses. Magna is looking for their bottom line , and the fans are being turned out. It is ridiculous to see the florida horse association have to beg and pay to have an outside saddling area and construction of bleachers seating . This was not part of the Magna vision. Magna hid their true intentions from the get go , from the artist renditions, to the plea for slots for education , to their support of racing in florida. They are a sham and their vision for racing is to fuel their real estate development , not the resurrection of the game we all love. :(
Well, the racing so far at Tampa is, as usually, top notch, and profitiable.
I just love Tampa.
And, my friend, Ridersup, got me more interested in it than ever before.
Here's to you, Phil! :ThmbUp:
karlskorner
12-26-2006, 07:05 PM
Unfortunately you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. The City of Hallendale has already approved the entire layout of Magna's future plans, which include a seperate building and area for "slots". Look at it from Magna's position, they hold the "only" Class 3 slots license and "going" operation as of now in the State of Florida, the other 4 licenses are a year to 3 years from becoming a "going" operation. Think of the money that is to be made and the horsemen will gain from the increase purses. Moving the present "slots" operaton from the resturant area to a new building will cost nickles and dimes, why wait, strike while the iron is hot. The media has not been kind to horse racing for years, pick up any citys newspaper and lucky if you find an article about horseracing. The media has dumped horseracing or devote little space to it. As I stated awhile back Gulfstream Park will be noted for it's entirety and yes they will also have world class racing. I believe Mr. Stronach does love horseracing, but you don't become a Billionaire racing and owning race tracks. I plan on watching it grow and enjoying every moment for years to come.
point given
12-26-2006, 11:55 PM
Unfortunately you are only seeing the tip of the iceberg. The City of Hallendale has already approved the entire layout of Magna's future plans, which include a seperate building and area for "slots". Look at it from Magna's position, they hold the "only" Class 3 slots license and "going" operation as of now in the State of Florida, the other 4 licenses are a year to 3 years from becoming a "going" operation. Think of the money that is to be made and the horsemen will gain from the increase purses. Moving the present "slots" operaton from the resturant area to a new building will cost nickles and dimes, why wait, strike while the iron is hot. The media has not been kind to horse racing for years, pick up any citys newspaper and lucky if you find an article about horseracing. The media has dumped horseracing or devote little space to it. As I stated awhile back Gulfstream Park will be noted for it's entirety and yes they will also have world class racing. I believe Mr. Stronach does love horseracing, but you don't become a Billionaire racing and owning race tracks. I plan on watching it grow and enjoying every moment for years to come.
First of all, there is NO Park at Gulfstream. There needs to be grass and trees to have a Park like setting. This misnomer is the first thing which should be corrected. And you are correct in that Stronach didnot get rich owning racetracks. Of course it was auto parts, and now real estate development of undervalued racetrack land with slots filled casinos . He is a liar and snake oil salesman and would do well in politics with those of his ilk. Gulfstream racing will be what it has always been , the winter place to train your horses for the coming season. The Kentucky and NY horsemen will wait for the meat of the season and not prematurely run their stock at 1 1/8 miles with a short run to the turn as a final prep for the derby. World class racing at Gulfstream , I tend to doubt it. One forgets that other states will have slots fueled purses as well and horsemen will have a choice . Gulfstream will have its upscale mall, etc. and horses will run in circles with few watching . TLG is correct in that Gulfstream is an internet track ; and even those who once cared, will turn to greener pastures that are horse/horseplayer friendly. You can watch the corporate growth and suck up to these corporate shmucks, not me, they have turned me off.
Indulto
12-27-2006, 07:58 AM
The commentary describing the physical impact of slots on horseplayers at GP and PHA is truly disturbing, and make me very grateful that SA and HOL have net yet been infected.
I was among the 32,000 plus at SA on opening day. Other than slow-moving betting lines, it was a great experience. The Stakes Pick 3 was a joy to behold both in the paddock and on the track. The Grandstand seemed darker than I remembered, but the outdoor tables between the paddock and grandstand were ideal for providing a bright place to read the DRF and watch the horses in the paddock.
Too many people occupied the saddling area to move about freely, but it’s OK with me if they’re going to let a horse like Kip Deville go off at 7-1. Wish I’d seen the charms of the place horse in that race. If Spring At Last had been able to win the subsequent Malibu at 17-1, I wouldn’t be here to write this. I thought the Latent Heat-Spring At Last Exacta seemed low considering that Latent Heat was the 4th betting choice, but they always hammer Frankel’s horses in exotics here. The Trifecta, however, seemed high with the 2nd choice finishing 3rd.
The food and beverage concessions seemed to be doing very well, although I never made it up to the new bar to see if Stronach’s vision was being embraced there as well. Does anybody have access to GP attendance figures pre/post-Stronach and before/after renovation?
point given
12-27-2006, 10:56 AM
The commentary describing the physical impact of slots on horseplayers at GP and PHA is truly disturbing, and make me very grateful that SA and HOL have net yet been infected.
I was among the 32,000 plus at SA on opening day. Other than slow-moving betting lines, it was a great experience. The Stakes Pick 3 was a joy to behold both in the paddock and on the track. The Grandstand seemed darker than I remembered, but the outdoor tables between the paddock and grandstand were ideal for providing a bright place to read the DRF and watch the horses in the paddock.
Too many people occupied the saddling area to move about freely, but it’s OK with me if they’re going to let a horse like Kip Deville go off at 7-1. Wish I’d seen the charms of the place horse in that race. If Spring At Last had been able to win the subsequent Malibu at 17-1, I wouldn’t be here to write this. I thought the Latent Heat-Spring At Last Exacta seemed low considering that Latent Heat was the 4th betting choice, but they always hammer Frankel’s horses in exotics here. The Trifecta, however, seemed high with the 2nd choice finishing 3rd.
The food and beverage concessions seemed to be doing very well, although I never made it up to the new bar to see if Stronach’s vision was being embraced there as well. Does anybody have access to GP attendance figures pre/post-Stronach and before/after renovation?
It was great to see the Santa Anita opening day card, a breath of fresh air. Lucky you to be there ! I read attendance was 32,000. There are only guestimates of attendance at Gulfstream. There is no admission , so they figure their attendance by track programs sold. Their only concern is total handle.
classhandicapper
12-27-2006, 11:30 AM
I think at some point horseplayers are going to have to realize that slots are saving many of the tracks and not the other way around. In fact, if we studied it carefully, it wouldn't surprise me if we concluded that the smartest thing to do from an economic perspective would be to just close down many of these racetracks, sell the excess land, and build casinos, slot, and simulcasting facilities to receive signals for the handful of tracks that are still economically feasible as stand alone entities. I love racing, but it's just a huge waste of valuable land and resources in many places. We are lucky we have any racing at all in some of these places. To be pissed off that we aren't treated at the top of the pecking order is missing what we contribute to the economics - a drain of money at a lot of the tracks that have profitable slot businesses that subsidize racing for our benefit.
. TLG is correct in that Gulfstream is an internet track ; and even those who once cared, will turn to greener pastures that are horse/horseplayer friendly. You can watch the corporate growth and suck up to these corporate shmucks, not me, they have turned me off.
I'll be going to Gulfstream at least twice this winter. While I don't disagree with some of the points. Gulfstream is a "pretty track". Its new, so its fresh. Its modern and well apppointed. The biggest issue is that you can't see the horse's saddled. That's no good. I can see now that the place was designed from the ground up for Slot players. I missed that when I was there last year.
Still, its a winter destination, and a reprieve for Northeast people. You go down, you see old friends, you go the beach, you go to Miami, you go to Gulfstream....and its a good trip. I'm looking forward to it.
CryingForTheHorses
12-27-2006, 12:12 PM
First of all, there is NO Park at Gulfstream. There needs to be grass and trees to have a Park like setting. This misnomer is the first thing which should be corrected. And you are correct in that Stronach didnot get rich owning racetracks. Of course it was auto parts, and now real estate development of undervalued racetrack land with slots filled casinos . He is a liar and snake oil salesman and would do well in politics with those of his ilk. Gulfstream racing will be what it has always been , the winter place to train your horses for the coming season. The Kentucky and NY horsemen will wait for the meat of the season and not prematurely run their stock at 1 1/8 miles with a short run to the turn as a final prep for the derby. World class racing at Gulfstream , I tend to doubt it. One forgets that other states will have slots fueled purses as well and horsemen will have a choice . Gulfstream will have its upscale mall, etc. and horses will run in circles with few watching . TLG is correct in that Gulfstream is an internet track ; and even those who once cared, will turn to greener pastures that are horse/horseplayer friendly. You can watch the corporate growth and suck up to these corporate shmucks, not me, they have turned me off.
Karl's DUNCE corner?????????
Where the hell do you get off insulting my good friend Karl just because he doesnt agree with your opinion..Is this not a FREE country...I dont know what the hell you want...I have been to GP at the slots and the whole place is buzzing with action..Yuo want a park...Go to NY they have 1 there called Central Park...Trying to outdo TLG in the insult department only makes you look like the fool to others who have been there. Granted it isnt as big as the old GP but its just as beautiful.I dont know if your trying to convince others to not go there..Have you been there recently????..I detest you guys that try to out talk each other.The bigger purses will give you bigger fields.Yes Gp is on the internet like all the rest of them.Im sure you will be betting and watching GP this winter...They have a new open air saddling area at the end of the paddock.You can sit or go upstairs and see them as you stand on the balconey. Its very nice...Please go visit,Im sure you will see different
alysheba88
12-27-2006, 12:52 PM
Geeze you really have it in for Stronach!!
Stronach has it in for us
alysheba88
12-27-2006, 12:54 PM
There have been some capitalists and vicious ones at that, who yet multiplied their wealth by , offering a product competitive in price and value, and with creative foresight and marketing techniques.
The mentality of the horse racing industry needs a "freshening".
And you think Stronach is the answer? Why does Magna keep losing money then?
highnote
12-27-2006, 01:02 PM
And you think Stronach is the answer? Why does Magna keep losing money then?
That will change as more and more money from slots come pouring in.
alysheba88
12-27-2006, 01:08 PM
That will change as more and more money from slots come pouring in.
And thats due to Stronach? He has mismanaged every track he has been a part of. Badly mismanaged. The stock price reflects that mismanagement
Indulto
12-27-2006, 03:59 PM
I think at some point horseplayers are going to have to realize that slots are saving many of the tracks and not the other way around. In fact, if we studied it carefully, it wouldn't surprise me if we concluded that the smartest thing to do from an economic perspective would be to just close down many of these racetracks, sell the excess land, and build casinos, slot, and simulcasting facilities to receive signals for the handful of tracks that are still economically feasible as stand alone entities. I love racing, but it's just a huge waste of valuable land and resources in many places. We are lucky we have any racing at all in some of these places. To be pissed off that we aren't treated at the top of the pecking order is missing what we contribute to the economics - a drain of money at a lot of the tracks that have profitable slot businesses that subsidize racing for our benefit.CH,
How MAGNAnimous of you.;)
While I too prefer racing at it's highest level, your attitude makes me sick to my stronach. As tfm might say, "Where can we bend over and how soon?"
PaceAdvantage
12-28-2006, 12:56 AM
I plan on watching it grow and enjoying every moment for years to come.
You know, the stock market says differently. The equity markets tend to factor in future earnings potential, yet even with slots approval at GP, MECA has been on nothing but a downslide for the past couple of years....why is that?
They can't even meet NASDAQ listing requirements!!!
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/nt/ic/ut/bsc/warn16_1.gifMECA has failed to meet NASDAQ Global Market continued listing requirement(s).
karlskorner
12-28-2006, 09:32 AM
Please don't give me logic, I am counting the days till the TAJ of racing opens and your giving me " graphs ".
PaceAdvantage
12-28-2006, 10:15 AM
Please don't give me logic...
Well, at least you haven't lost your sense of humor! :lol:
point given
12-28-2006, 10:51 AM
Please don't give me logic, I am counting the days till the TAJ of racing opens and your giving me " graphs ".
I knew that phrase " Taj Mahal of racing", which I posted for Scott Savin to jump on last year would come back to bite me. My rejoinder to it was " they think they built the TAj Mahal , but Its Really a White Elephant". Funny how in the USA, the new and shiny is glorified, while the great old tracks are the real soul of horse racing. Slots palaces have no soul, they are all glitz. Give me Saratoga, Santa Anita, Delmar, which ooze class, any day. These are places that live and breathe horses, not fancy dining rooms, dancing water fountains and slot machines, BUT, this is the new paradigm, NOT. Even the Northampton fair to me is heads above a mindless slots horseracing facility which pushes horseracing to the back burner. Look what they have done for us.
classhandicapper
12-28-2006, 12:19 PM
CH,
How MAGNAnimous of you.;)
While I too prefer racing at it's highest level, your attitude makes me sick to my stronach. As tfm might say, "Where can we bend over and how soon?"
:lol:
I think you understand how much I love racing and want first class facilities, racing, and treatment, but it's also a business. I think people lose sight of the fact that many tracks are economic disasters relative to the potential alternatives for those properties and resources.
I think to make the game better, the economics have to change so that there is money to be made in racing in a lot of different areas - including the tracks. IMO, that means closing a whole bunch of them and creating much smaller simulcasting facilities in their place. I said that a few years ago on the TG board and still think it. We only need a handful of tracks around the country. Some could be for high quality racing and others could be vacation destinations etc... If that means shrinking the industry at first, so be it. But at least it will make some economic sense and be healthy going forward.
We also need to get the government out of the business totally (other than collecting taxes on profits), but that's an even bigger daydream.
ponyplayerdotca
12-28-2006, 01:02 PM
classhandicapper wrote:
"I think at some point horseplayers are going to have to realize that slots are saving many of the tracks and not the other way around."
====
Yes, but considering the small field sizes and shenanigans ongoing at many of these smaller tracks, what would be terribly wrong if about half of them close?
Why does every little state need two or more race tracks?
Wouldn't fewer racetracks address the problem of short fields and too few horses training?
The horse people would be forced to congregate in greater numbers at fewer tracks making for a more competitive atmosphere, no?
Slots have absolutely nothing to do with horse racing. Slots players have no interest in horse racing. Horse people use it as quick money to try to supplement a dying sport in their area.
I say slots are a false dawn. Horse racing will still die in those places, slots or not. The interest isn't there. Who cares if slot money funds a sport there is no interest in? How long will that be employed as a sound business plan?
To paraphrase you, "I think at some point horseplayers are going to have to realize that some tracks will have to close down to help the sport at those tracks where it thrives and not the other way around."
Slots are doom. Period. :ThmbDown:
The Hawk
12-28-2006, 08:13 PM
classhandicapper wrote:
"I think at some point horseplayers are going to have to realize that slots are saving many of the tracks and not the other way around."
====
Yes, but considering the small field sizes and shenanigans ongoing at many of these smaller tracks, what would be terribly wrong if about half of them close?
Why does every little state need two or more race tracks?
Wouldn't fewer racetracks address the problem of short fields and too few horses training?
The horse people would be forced to congregate in greater numbers at fewer tracks making for a more competitive atmosphere, no?
Slots have absolutely nothing to do with horse racing. Slots players have no interest in horse racing. Horse people use it as quick money to try to supplement a dying sport in their area.
I say slots are a false dawn. Horse racing will still die in those places, slots or not. The interest isn't there. Who cares if slot money funds a sport there is no interest in? How long will that be employed as a sound business plan?
To paraphrase you, "I think at some point horseplayers are going to have to realize that some tracks will have to close down to help the sport at those tracks where it thrives and not the other way around."
Slots are doom. Period. :ThmbDown:
Right, profitable, smaller tracks should shut down so they can help sustain the sport. And why wouldn't they? Brilliant.
The larger circuits can help the short-field problem by carding less races themselves, starting with fewer days of racing. NY racing was at its best when it was seasonal, closed for the winter. True fans of the sport built anticipation, and bankrolls, and had something to look forward to each spring. Now? Same horses,week after week, which takes its toll on the quality of racing, as well as at the entry box. Same deal in California, although Golden Gate recently made a smart decision to cut back to 4 days per week. We'll see what effect that has on the field sizes, though I think it will prove a wise decision.
I'm fairly certain that track management and state politicians at most, if not all, tracks where there are slots were smart enough to make provisions for our sport, where racing must be conducted in order to have slot operations, so slots will NOT kill the sport of racing. Nor will it save it, since it didn't need saving, which handle figures prove annually. It HAS saved, and will continue to save, many of the smaller tracks, and as a fan I say that's a good thing. But I do recognize that it will be tough for a track to survive without slots if tracks neighboring states have them, which makes me wonder about the fate of tracks in NJ and MD.
Indulto
12-28-2006, 09:45 PM
... I think you understand how much I love racing and want first class facilities, racing, and treatment, but it's also a business.
… We also need to get the government out of the business totally (other than collecting taxes on profits), but that's an even bigger daydream.Yes, I do, but frankly, I think we shouldn’t concern ourselves with where, when, or whether racing occurs at other than the highest level except to ensure that all simulcast venues contribute appropriately to the purses of the simulcasted high-quality races. Rather, we should concentrate on getting high-quality racing scheduled and carded as frequently and competitively as possible, and wagered on as fairly and securely as practical.
As you know, I believe that if the Graded Stakes venues can be persuaded to cooperatively schedule bonus-qualified divisional series, the rest will take care of itself by directing handle to the most popular (and worthy?).
Personally, I'd like to see greater Federal Government oversight and regulation of racing in order to implement and enforce uniform nationwide statutes, provide greater wagering integrity and security, and to more consistently protect the customer’s personal privacy.
alysheba88
12-29-2006, 07:58 AM
At what point is there saturation with slots? I mean within a couple of years I would venture to say 90% of tracks will have them. Plus expect to see further expansion in casino gambling. Are there an infinite supply of slot players who will never tap out?
MikeDee
12-29-2006, 09:05 AM
Race tack operators are businessmen first, horsemen second. The slots provide the best return, low maintenance, low cost. Horse racing requires high expense dollars, heavy government regulation and low return. It should not be a surprise that the lions share of improvements will be to grow the slots business.
It would not surprise me to see racing operations to diminish or cease altogether as tracks make the transition to full fledged casinos.
In fact I foresee a total turnaround in states that don't permit slots. They may be the beneficiaries of better racing stock and full fields when racing is forced out of the slot parlors disguised as race tracks.
maxwell
12-29-2006, 10:06 AM
Stronach has always been little weird, but you can't really question the smarts of someone who started a global empire from a garage on some side street in Toronto.
I've seen pictures of the "new" Santa Anita, and it looks awesome to me. My sister and her hubby went to SoCal on bizznezz and went to the track on my urging. They said it was beautiful. They also won $300 - biased opinion? :D
What I hate about slots is the fact that they inflate the purses. It complicates my handicapping. To me, Belmont is an A track - Calder is a C - Turfway is an E. Part of that equation is based on daily purse totals that are now in flux. And now Polytrack!
I have to agree that offering 90k purses for an Alw. race, and then charging patrons $6 for a beer is a real slap in the face. :blush:
But things could be worse. If Shiek Mohommed was running the show instead of Frankie, there could be camel races in Florida and SoCal.
alysheba88
12-29-2006, 10:39 AM
Stronach has always been little weird, but you can't really question the smarts of someone who started a global empire from a garage on some side street in Toronto.
I've seen pictures of the "new" Santa Anita, and it looks awesome to me. My sister and her hubby went to SoCal on bizznezz and went to the track on my urging. They said it was beautiful. They also won $300 - biased opinion? :D
What I hate about slots is the fact that they inflate the purses. It complicates my handicapping. To me, Belmont is an A track - Calder is a C - Turfway is an E. Part of that equation is based on daily purse totals that are now in flux. And now Polytrack!
I have to agree that offering 90k purses for an Alw. race, and then charging patrons $6 for a beer is a real slap in the face. :blush:
But things could be worse. If Shiek Mohommed was running the show instead of Frankie, there could be camel races in Florida and SoCal.
One has nothing to do with the other. How many pro sports owners have we seen that are great businessmen but awful sports owners. One doesnt translate to the other
I think many people, not neccessarily here, are missing the real issue. VLT's are not "the answer" to all of our sport's -- or all of our industry's -- ills. There are two components to this debate -- the fans/bettors/etc. and the owners. While these groups may be the same and/or overlap to an extent, there are distinctions.
Owners in this game have a direct vested financial interest, that being in purse monies. The VLT's, while not an exclusive solution, are in fact part of a soultion. That part of the solution is alternative revenue sources and income that will fund increases in purses. As I've said in the past, we have seen alternative revenue sources and income work -- as it has at Keeneland. A portion of the revenue generated from the Keeneland sales is allocated goes directly into the Keeneland purses. The VLT revenue has done the same at Delaware, the many other tracks that have VLT's, and will do the same in NY and Philly.
Now, if track ownership, management, etc. do not take "additional dollars" -- over and above what is allocated to purses -- and put them back into the facility, then you will have serious problems. The other group -- fans/bettors/etc. AND the owners, will be very unhappy as the facility will not be "friendly" for those who to the facility for the racing aspect. This will hurt tremendously, and it already has. Owners will not want to come to the track as it will not be "owner" or "racing" friendly. It will no longer be fun and an enjoyable experience if we as owners are stuck on the 4th floor, down at the end, without nice amenities and such. This will not be conducive to maintaining and attracting current and new owners.
Fans/bettors/etc. will have the very same problem. They will seek alternatives -- rebate shops, internet betting, OTB's/Teletheaters/etc., at-home or telephone wagering, etc. Attendence will suffer, on-track handle will suffer.
All of this will have a domino effect. If we see the "Finger Lakes" mindset, where track ownership/management decides to put money back into the "VLT" side of the facility, instead of (in this case) putting in a turf course, then the VLT's are a "purse solution" but not a "racing side" facility solution. Turf course vs. New Restaurant for the VLT side of the facility? If this is strictly a ROI decision -- we are in trouble!
Thus, we need more of a global solution. Marketing, public relations, making the racing show a better show and product, rebates, comps, nicer and better facilities, better treatment and customer service, and more -- all of that must be implemented IN CONJUNCTION with VLT's.
It's of course easier said than done. But it must be done.
Eric
Stronach has always been little weird, but you can't really question the smarts of someone who started a global empire from a garage on some side street in Toronto.
I've seen pictures of the "new" Santa Anita, and it looks awesome to me. My sister and her hubby went to SoCal on bizznezz and went to the track on my urging. They said it was beautiful. They also won $300 - biased opinion? :D
What I hate about slots is the fact that they inflate the purses. It complicates my handicapping. To me, Belmont is an A track - Calder is a C - Turfway is an E. Part of that equation is based on daily purse totals that are now in flux. And now Polytrack!
I have to agree that offering 90k purses for an Alw. race, and then charging patrons $6 for a beer is a real slap in the face. :blush:
But things could be worse. If Shiek Mohommed was running the show instead of Frankie, there could be camel races in Florida and SoCal.
While I agree in concept, this part (the above which I took the liberty of putting in bold) is the one-track mind (no pun intended) that can hurt the industry. This too is what I have always thought was part of the problem. Eveyrone is looking out for themselves -- the bettors look out for themselves, either as bettors or fans or the owners only caring about purses, and not about the fans/bettors.
Often these people are one in the same -- we are all in this together. Far too many times have I heard hard-core, die-hard bettors say "if it wasn't for us bettors, there would be no horse racing" or "if it wasn't for us, there would be no purses" and so on. Also, far too often do I hear owners say "if it wasn't for us spending money and buying horses, there wouldn't be races to bet on" or "if it wasn't for owners, there would be no racing" and so on.
To me, this is a chicken/egg and which came first arguement -- a fallacious arguement at best. EVERYONE is needed. EVERYONE contributes. EVERYONE is part of the solution. I don't know what % of betting dollars goes into the purses but I am sure others can answer the question. If those dollars are eliminated from the equation, we have a problem. If owners stop pumping money into the game, the domino effect occurs, and competitive racing will disappear, and we have a problem. I do not see bettors in masses boycotting tracks. I don't see owners in masses not buying horses.
Today's tracks, those that are being rebuilt, renovated, etc. -- Gulfstream, Penn National, Philly Park, Aqueduct, and the many more to follow -- these tracks SHOULD NOT be built for the VLT players. They SHOULD NOT be built for the owners. They SHOULD NOT be built for the people who come for boxing, concerts, sports bars, etc.
They SHOULD be built for ALL of those groups -- for EVERYONE!
Eric
maxwell
12-29-2006, 02:36 PM
88,
The problem is, it's the businessmen who have the millions and billions it takes to do the massive renovations; we're stuck with them. The government wants its share of the slot take, but they sure as hell aren't going to delegate funds to fix up tracks for racing or slots. As was posted earlier, the owners of the tracks are businessmen first.
Ten years ago Woodbine was a sight for sore eyes. Today It's actually hard to believe it's the same place. There's no way it would look as it does without slots. Slots are the lesser of two evils - even if some of them are run by the sons of Satan.
alysheba88
12-29-2006, 03:14 PM
88,
The problem is, it's the businessmen who have the millions and billions it takes to do the massive renovations; we're stuck with them. The government wants its share of the slot take, but they sure as hell aren't going to delegate funds to fix up tracks for racing or slots. As was posted earlier, the owners of the tracks are businessmen first.
Ten years ago Woodbine was a sight for sore eyes. Today It's actually hard to believe it's the same place. There's no way it would look as it does without slots. Slots are the lesser of two evils - even if some of them are run by the sons of Satan.
The renovations to Gulfstream are a joke.
Monmouth park is owned by the state and they are making significant improvements
The renovations to Gulfstream are a joke.
Monmouth park is owned by the state and they are making significant improvements
Gulfstream may be a joke, and perhaps I am being naive, but I don't think Stronach will end up being guilty of the extreme -- keeping a rat-trap racetrack open just to operate VLT's, poker, etc. I guess we will soon see though. There is no doubt that fans, bettors, owners, etc. were not happy with the initial version of the facility. I think "some", perhaps few, improvements were made. I think more are planned. Gulfstream may be a work in progress, however, I don't doubt that some people will be unhappy.
The improvements at Monmouth Park on the other hand are primarily being done as a result of hosting the Breeder's Cup. I am sure there is some permanent benefit to the facility as the motivation is in fact to get VLT's. Either the casino's make another deal and pay -- or the push for VLT's will happen again and happen fast.
Eric
alysheba88
12-29-2006, 05:04 PM
Gulfstream may be a joke, and perhaps I am being naive, but I don't think Stronach will end up being guilty of the extreme -- keeping a rat-trap racetrack open just to operate VLT's, poker, etc. I guess we will soon see though. There is no doubt that fans, bettors, owners, etc. were not happy with the initial version of the facility. I think "some", perhaps few, improvements were made. I think more are planned. Gulfstream may be a work in progress, however, I don't doubt that some people will be unhappy.
The improvements at Monmouth Park on the other hand are primarily being done as a result of hosting the Breeder's Cup. I am sure there is some permanent benefit to the facility as the motivation is in fact to get VLT's. Either the casino's make another deal and pay -- or the push for VLT's will happen again and happen fast.
Eric
My point about Monmouth was it doesnt necessarily take a "businessmen" to get renovations done. Although the people who run Monmouth are some of the sharpest around
Indulto
12-30-2006, 06:45 AM
… the one-track mind … that can hurt the industry … is what I have always thought was part of the problem. Eveyrone is looking out for themselves -- the bettors look out for themselves, either as bettors or fans or the owners only caring about purses, and not about the fans/bettors.
Often these people are one in the same -- we are all in this together. Far too many times have I heard hard-core, die-hard bettors say "if it wasn't for us bettors, there would be no horse racing" or "if it wasn't for us, there would be no purses" and so on. Also, far too often do I hear owners say "if it wasn't for us spending money and buying horses, there wouldn't be races to bet on" or "if it wasn't for owners, there would be no racing" and so on.
To me, this is a chicken/egg and which came first arguement -- a fallacious arguement at best. EVERYONE is needed. EVERYONE contributes. EVERYONE is part of the solution. I don't know what % of betting dollars goes into the purses but I am sure others can answer the question. If those dollars are eliminated from the equation, we have a problem. If owners stop pumping money into the game, the domino effect occurs, and competitive racing will disappear, and we have a problem. I do not see bettors in masses boycotting tracks. I don't see owners in masses not buying horses.
Today's tracks, those that are being rebuilt, renovated, etc. -- Gulfstream, Penn National, Philly Park, Aqueduct, and the many more to follow -- these tracks SHOULD NOT be built for the VLT players. They SHOULD NOT be built for the owners. They SHOULD NOT be built for the people who come for boxing, concerts, sports bars, etc.
They SHOULD be built for ALL of those groups -- for EVERYONE!Well said, ELA. It’s refreshing to an industry outsider like me to hear that perspective from an owner. Players need to understand how financial risk/reward for owners differs from their own. The following B-H editorial is timely:Purses and Walletby Ray Paulick
http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36866 (http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36866)
The gap between purses in Thoroughbred races in the United States and money spent in the American Thoroughbred auction market widened in 2006.
… Purses, which until 10 years ago were fueled strictly by pari-mutuel handle, are now subsidized in many states (“completely dependent” might be a more accurate term) through revenue from slot machines.
As a result, if purses are higher for 2006 than they were one year earlier, the increase will have resulted despite a decline in overall pari-mutuel handle. Take away the slots revenue, and purses surely would have declined.It reminded me of a post by the head of TG on his site to the effect that owners, collectively, pay twice as much annually in expenses (excluding purchases) as are paid out in purses. It would seem that a majority of both owners and players are in the game more for its entertainment value than for profit.
I was intrigued by your likening players refusing to bet with owners refusing to buy. The former would protest customer treatment by track operators whereas the latter would protest breeder prices. Wouldn’t boycotting the entry box be a more accurate analogy?
I think the analogies can go several ways, and yes, I would agree with the boycott of breeders/breeding prices and the entry box as well. In reality, my point was that all of the ingredients are needed for the recipe. None of it really matters because none of it will happen, LOL.
I've heard bettors on other BB's, and in person, bash NYRA, management, time and time again! From the price of a beer, to the quality of the seats, parking, customer service, about everything! Of course some points are valid, and others have more to do with the price of cheese than it does with NY Racing. I've started of course to hear the same think about Gulfstream. However, I have yet to hear of bettors in mass boycotting NYRA. I don't think we'll see it at Gulfstream either. Sure, this guy won't go, and that guy won't go -- no offense -- won't change a thing for the most part.
At the same time, I don't see owners boycotting either. They will go where the money is, where they are, where they want to, etc. Like I said, it is not one group that is more important than the other. Groups thinking that way is part of the problem.
Eric
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