Bad bets: On a tainted track

[bigmack]

Paper in SoCal running a series re: Drugs in Cal Racing

http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/investigations/horseracing/partone/article_1353904.php
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/investigations/horseracing/partone/article_1378840.php

[kenwoodallpromos]

I agree fines are too small and more than fines need to be done everywhere.
________________
Drug Violation Punishment

The way I see it, racing needs ways to punish trainers who violate drug policies so that there is real prevention as well as being fair across the board to bettors, owners, and trainers of competing horses. The way racing is set up now, violators are caught well past time to prevent problems, and that allows the race being fixed to advantage bettors, trainers, and owners by insufficient punishment that hurts small trainers much more than the trainers with larger stables.
As I see things, the 3 most important things to trainers are money, stall space, and weight off.
Here are my suggestions:
First of all, all entrants in stakes races should have testing done prior to the start of the 1st race on the card on the day of the stakes race, and immediate testing be done for CO2 and totally banned substances. Any horse caught needs to be scratched prior to that stakes race. All punishments would be in effect regardless of the finish position of the horse in violation and in additionj to current punishments.
1) Money- for CO2 or totally banned substance, a fine levied equal to the winner's share of the violated race. For an overage of a legal substance, a fine levied equal to 10% of the winner's share of the affected race.
2) Stall space- For each violation of any drug rule, 50% reduction of the currently alloted stalll space for the next meet on that ciruit or at that track regardless of the length of that meet. If more than 2 violations, carryovers to future meets.
3) Weight off- for each violation of any drug rule, each of the trainer's runners will carry 2 lbs extra weight in addition to any legally required in the condition book for the length of the next meet. (No limit on the usage of apprentices by the trainer).

[dutzman]

ken-

I agree with your punishment suggestions except the last one. I don't think it is fair to the other horses who have to carry the extra weight. This game should be totally about the horses first and adding weight to other horses in the barn is unfair to them IMO. But i love the stall space penalty, I never really thought of that.....

[DJofSD]

A bounty hunter program should be started. Any one providing proof of use of illegal medications gets the trainer's portion of all purses won.

And, to really get the owners attention, after a trainer has had 3 violations in any venue, all horses in his barn, the barn of any assistant, etc., regardless whether those horses are/were a part of any violation are permanently banned from boarding at track or racing facility where normally stalls are provided free of charge.

[kenwoodallpromos]

ken-

I agree with your punishment suggestions except the last one. I don't think it is fair to the other horses who have to carry the extra weight. This game should be totally about the horses first and adding weight to other horses in the barn is unfair to them IMO. But i love the stall space penalty, I never really thought of that.....
____________
Any owner, including the one that the drugs are found in, has the option of going to another trainer (maybe a clean one who has just got new stall space) and keep the extra weight off. 2 and 3 are incentives for trainers who wantto stay clean and keep clients, and to offset the advantage big trainers have now as to preferred stall space and being able to ship to other circuits or get favored in the condition book because they have so many horses. 2 lbs is not that bad, but when Norman fixes a $150,000 race by doping up 2 entrants then he can pay the price for 1 meet.

[kenwoodallpromos]

ken-

I agree with your punishment suggestions except the last one. I don't think it is fair to the other horses who have to carry the extra weight. This game should be totally about the horses first and adding weight to other horses in the barn is unfair to them IMO. But i love the stall space penalty, I never really thought of that.....
_________---
Norman had shake violation in CA- now 2 in a $150k race, If he had only shaken PAPA the winner the maximum punishment would have been $1000.
Any owner can go to another trainer and keep the horse at the track and the extra weight of. My ideas are to punish only the trainer by encouraging owners to find a clean trainer. Also even the playing field for small clean trainers.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I think a big issue will be anabolic steroids in racing. NY Times reprinted a Steve Crist article from 1990:
"http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=health&res=9C0CEFD7113FF936A25754C0A966958260"
Interesting that 1990 is about when many track's records began falling and when average starts per race began falling.
Runs nicely paralell to increased emphasis on early speed, bulkier horses, less stamina, etc.

[JPinMaryland]

do you have objective source of info. that records dropped a lot starting in the 90s?

THere were a lot of records that dropped in the 60s, apparently due to harder tracks or some have said. ALso in the late 40s, I guess the tracks changed and shoes were made of aluminum. I dont recall anything specific on the 90s.

[boomman]

DJ of SD wrote:

A bounty hunter program should be started. Any one providing proof of use of illegal medications gets the trainer's portion of all purses won.

And, to really get the owners attention, after a trainer has had 3 violations in any venue, all horses in his barn, the barn of any assistant, etc., regardless whether those horses are/were a part of any violation are permanently banned from boarding at track or racing facility where normally stalls are provided free of charge.

COME ON CALIFORNIA WAKE UP! COME ON RACING WAKE UP!!! THROW THESE CHEATERS OUT ONCE AND FOR ALL! I SAW THAT A GUY THAT FLUNKED A TEST IN CANADA GOT A 10 YEAR SUSPENSION!! THAT'S MORE LIKE IT!! ONE TRAINER HAVING 8 VIOLATIONS AND NO SUSPENSIONS? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! GUYS LIKE US THAT LOVE AND SUPPORT HORSE RACING NEED TO DEMAND THE HEADS OF THESE CHEATERS ON A PLATTER ONCE AND FOR ALL! WE ALL KNOW WHO THEY ARE (3 are currently serving long suspensions), and as a long-term steward I guarantee you that Ingrid Fermin (Exec Dir of CHRB) knows who they are, too!!! Some good enforcement ideas, DJ! Boom

[bigmack]

The series continues:
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/homepage/article_1353916.php

http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/news/2006/12/11horse_em.gif


They'll come up with any excuse, 'The groom came around and left a poppy seed pastry lying around and the horse reached out and grabbed it,'

[skate]

DJ of SD wrote:

A bounty hunter program should be started. Any one providing proof of use of illegal medications gets the trainer's portion of all purses won.

And, to really get the owners attention, after a trainer has had 3 violations in any venue, all horses in his barn, the barn of any assistant, etc., regardless whether those horses are/were a part of any violation are permanently banned from boarding at track or racing facility where normally stalls are provided free of charge.

COME ON CALIFORNIA WAKE UP! COME ON RACING WAKE UP!!! THROW THESE CHEATERS OUT ONCE AND FOR ALL! I SAW THAT A GUY THAT FLUNKED A TEST IN CANADA GOT A 10 YEAR SUSPENSION!! THAT'S MORE LIKE IT!! ONE TRAINER HAVING 8 VIOLATIONS AND NO SUSPENSIONS? YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!! GUYS LIKE US THAT LOVE AND SUPPORT HORSE RACING NEED TO DEMAND THE HEADS OF THESE CHEATERS ON A PLATTER ONCE AND FOR ALL! WE ALL KNOW WHO THEY ARE (3 are currently serving long suspensions), and as a long-term steward I guarantee you that Ingrid Fermin (Exec Dir of CHRB) knows who they are, too!!! Some good enforcement ideas, DJ! Boom

whats all the fussin bout?

now if you want to POST (so called) Cheaters, and you know who they are (?) gess, why not post them.

and if we already know who they (cheats) are , that should be an advantage, no?

i gotta say, i don't find a problem and i suppose the boards have got to find something to contrive in order to keep Their Job.:sleeping:


not a board member:confused:
skate

[PlanB]

umm, I don't totally agree with very harsh treatments. Pletcher was just "caught" in the sense that NY best drug czar, George Maylin, was firm about Pletcher's horse having been 'administered' a drug; iows, it was NO ACCIDENT.
So Todd gets 45 days. I think repeaters should get extra slaps; but a trainer's overall record & prestige MUST count.

[boomman]

Skate: Trust me I DO know who they are, and I guess I'll just continue using them in my wagers until they are set down. But because of guys like you who obviously don't care about the integrity of the game, I'll just let you and others like you find 'em on your own. If you don't think putting integrity back into the game or improving it by stronger testing rules and suspensions helps EVERYONE who is betting horses in the big picture, then you are totally missing the point!!! Boom

[kenwoodallpromos]

Norman is currently under 1 yr suspension in CA but is allowed to continue elsewhere, so the only thing his CA suspensin did is move his horses out of state, not clean him up. Ca rules are not recognized elsewhere.
That is why much heavier fines etc would work.

[PlanB]

TY BOOM, for lowering it on Skate. He just thinks the marketplace is so pure it doesn't need looking after. Obviously, he thinks it all works itself out. Well, I got a big stick ready just in case. Sometimes the market place is efficient, but not in the way most of us want.

[kenwoodallpromos]

looking back on CHRB site at some violations involving totally banned substances, $300.00 and no suspension looks common.

[bigmack]

//

http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/news/2006/12/10horse_gp.gif

[JustRalph]

The series continues:
http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister/news/homepage/article_1353916.php

http://www.ocregister.com/newsimages/news/2006/12/11horse_em.gif


They'll come up with any excuse, 'The groom came around and left a poppy seed pastry lying around and the horse reached out and grabbed it,'

That graphic says it all.............thanks for the posts Mack...........

[skate]

Skate: Trust me I DO know who they are, and I guess I'll just continue using them in my wagers until they are set down. But because of guys like you who obviously don't care about the integrity of the game, I'll just let you and others like you find 'em on your own. If you don't think putting integrity back into the game or improving it by stronger testing rules and suspensions helps EVERYONE who is betting horses in the big picture, then you are totally missing the point!!! Boom

officialdomly childlike there my friends, but, hey...

" guys like me" , have tough times with you wisdomly- insightednessly-frivolously thinking people.

but i don'ts know what i'd doodle without yous

[skate]

Skate: Trust me I DO know who they are, and I guess I'll just continue using them in my wagers until they are set down. But because of guys like you who obviously don't care about the integrity of the game, I'll just let you and others like you find 'em on your own. If you don't think putting integrity back into the game or improving it by stronger testing rules and suspensions helps EVERYONE who is betting horses in the big picture, then you are totally missing the point!!! Boom

boom;

so, what we should do in order to restore (how did you lose it?) "integrity" to the sport, in your opinion, would be to advertise "ITS F... WEAKNESSES" at every and all opportunistic times.

forget the proof, just PUT downs will do just fine, is that correct????

"if it bleds, it leads", is that correct??? boy, that'll get the job done.
im glad i've finally caught up. i've seen much of this type thinking, not everyone mind you, but lots of this type thinking, just glad i caught up with the wisdoms of today , thank you.

hey ehy hey, let me know iffin i gots any misspelled wards wood ya.:)

[rrbauer]

There's another thread rolling covering the same issues and newspaper articles. You might want to check what Barry Irwin (Team Valor) has to say about the integrity issue. He says that only drugs issued by the racing commission medicine cabinet to specific vets/hosses should be legal. Good idea IMHO.

http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=36701

I'm already disgusted with Calif racing with their short fields and the lack of leadership by the CHRB (the "PR Board" label fits) so with Tampa starting up and the P4 contest at AQU (despite ranchwest's attempts to make it a walkover) running on the weekends, Calif can take their racing and stick it you-know-where!

[bigmack]

Calif can take their racing and stick it you-know-where!
Exactly. The La Brea Tar Pits

[cj]

Interesting from Mr. Irwin. It should be divulged that though he fired Ralph Nicks as trainer for Team Valor after a drug positive, he didn't find the same action necessary when Pletcher was busted.

[boomman]

Skate wrote: boom;

so, what we should do in order to restore (how did you lose it?) "integrity" to the sport, in your opinion, would be to advertise "ITS F... WEAKNESSES" at every and all opportunistic times.

forget the proof, just PUT downs will do just fine, is that correct????

"if it bleds, it leads", is that correct??? boy, that'll get the job done.
im glad i've finally caught up. i've seen much of this type thinking, not everyone mind you, but lots of this type thinking, just glad i caught up with the wisdoms of today , thank you.

hey ehy hey, let me know iffin i gots any misspelled wards wood ya.:)

Skate: Actually you are not correct in anything you said to me so let me clear it up for you: The 3 cases I mentioned have been on several threads on PA already, and are in FACT 3 trainers who are currently under suspension or in the process thereof-read about 'em in detail on bloodhorse.com if you can't find 'em here! Those aren't "put downs" as you most eloquently put it, they are FACTS! And trainer Craig Robertson failing 8 drug tests with his horses in California and not getting ONE suspension is not an innuendo or accusation it is a COLD HARD FACT! Now lets talk about bad publicity. When the guys were caught with their hand in the cookie jar in The Breeders Cup wagering scandal (although they didn't get near as much hard time as they should have), many surveys found that the public was actually glad that racing had finally come clean and ACKNOWLEDGED that this kind of thing happens and that they were (due to public and industry demand) doing something about it. In case you don't know this skate, most of the "first time starters" (people going to the track for the 1st time) think the races are fixed anyway. So how in the hell can showing the public that racing is doing something to police itself when the public already possesses that fear in the first place be a bad thing? We have this problem because of the very solution that you suggest of continuing to slap these offenders on the hand and sweep it under the carpet so that they will continue right on doing what they're doing. If racing polices itself properly and swiftly, the public will gain confidence in our product and it will be allowed to flourish. That is the simple truth! You must be one of the guys who thinks that trainer Jeff Mullins being quoted in the LA Times as saying all horse racing bettor are idiots was a good thing huh? If you want to complain about bad publicity, try that one on for size!! By the way, did I spell everything correctly? DOH LOL Boom

www.boomerhandicapsraces.com (http://www.boomerhandicapsraces.com/)

[bigmack]

Yo Boom - I like reading your posts but bold italic is makin' me re-think the laser surgery.

[boomman]

Fair enough Mac-How's this? Boom

www.boomerhandicapsraces.com (http://www.boomerhandicapsraces.com/)

[bigmack]

Fair enough Mac-How's this? Boom

www.boomerhandicapsraces.com (http://www.boomerhandicapsraces.com/)
As they say in Rio - Muito Obrigado

[skate]

Skate wrote: boom;

so, what we should do in order to restore (how did you lose it?) "integrity" to the sport, in your opinion, would be to advertise "ITS F... WEAKNESSES" at every and all opportunistic times.

forget the proof, just PUT downs will do just fine, is that correct????

"if it bleds, it leads", is that correct??? boy, that'll get the job done.
im glad i've finally caught up. i've seen much of this type thinking, not everyone mind you, but lots of this type thinking, just glad i caught up with the wisdoms of today , thank you.

hey ehy hey, let me know iffin i gots any misspelled wards wood ya.:)

Skate: Actually you are not correct in anything you said to me so let me clear it up for you: The 3 cases I mentioned have been on several threads on PA already, and are in FACT 3 trainers who are currently under suspension or in the process thereof-read about 'em in detail on bloodhorse.com if you can't find 'em here! Those aren't "put downs" as you most eloquently put it, they are FACTS! And trainer Craig Robertson failing 8 drug tests with his horses in California and not getting ONE suspension is not an innuendo or accusation it is a COLD HARD FACT! Now lets talk about bad publicity. When the guys were caught with their hand in the cookie jar in The Breeders Cup wagering scandal (although they didn't get near as much hard time as they should have), many surveys found that the public was actually glad that racing had finally come clean and ACKNOWLEDGED that this kind of thing happens and that they were (due to public and industry demand) doing something about it. In case you don't know this skate, most of the "first time starters" (people going to the track for the 1st time) think the races are fixed anyway. So how in the hell can showing the public that racing is doing something to police itself when the public already possesses that fear in the first place be a bad thing? We have this problem because of the very solution that you suggest of continuing to slap these offenders on the hand and sweep it under the carpet so that they will continue right on doing what they're doing. If racing polices itself properly and swiftly, the public will gain confidence in our product and it will be allowed to flourish. That is the simple truth! You must be one of the guys who thinks that trainer Jeff Mullins being quoted in the LA Times as saying all horse racing bettor are idiots was a good thing huh? If you want to complain about bad publicity, try that one on for size!! By the way, did I spell everything correctly? DOH LOL Boom

www.boomerhandicapsraces.com (http://www.boomerhandicapsraces.com/)

oh my god . your own post, about me, proves my point.

you make "my" point when you say " we have this problem because... i suggested" . do you see what you are saying. you say "i suggest (the skate)", god man this is the point that i am talking about "Suggested" was NOT in my wording a ... aaaa hhhhh . i am not talking about fines, make the frig... fines whatever you prefer, i am not suggesting.
MY whole point is directed towards the fact of " corruption" and "how much corruption". you got someone guilty, shot the bastards , that would be your thinking, i am not really saying that, but if you wanna miss quote me, then say i wanna shot...

you magnify the problem, that is my thinking. as for example. you try to make a point by going way way back to the BC, and then what? oh my god we (this industry is so very very horrible indeed) huh?







to read what ever you are saying and to keep repeating what you are saying, would conclude for those unfamiliar (AND FOR THOSE that think they know something) that "RACING IS A CRAP GAME" I.E. It is in no way Honest.

oh yeh sure , you didnt say that exactly, but you'll go on and on with MiSQuotes by "the Skate" and you think you've got Integrity back into the sport. wow!:rolleyes:

oh, great point there boom, go back to the cup and point out how very corrupt this game is, and with that in mind don't forget about EVERY other TYPE business in the Frig... world does things illegal. lets here about what % of wrongdoing is happening in the rest of the world, i mean just to compare with other type businesses, would ya do that for me, huh?
please!:bang:

would you think i could give you about 25 examples (from other businesses) of wrong doings for every one you give me for racing?

do you think that all other type business comes under as much regulation as does the racing industry?

one other business may come close... trucking, but only close.

[bigmack]

http://www.rogerstein.com/archives/061217.wma

CHRB chair Richard Shapiro appeared on Roger Stein's radio show Sunday for a wide-ranging interview covering rules and regs and he also refuted last week's scathing series of articles in the OC Register, "It was truly, truly just an amateurish job. To look at a Bute positive in the same vein as a Class I positive -- they made no differentiation of that. So, you know, it really was a bad job. Now I must tell you though, from my perspective, I am glad in one sense, because I believe we have to get stiffer laws, we have to get stiffer penalties. And to the extent that an article like that comes out -- very inaccurate -- but to the extent that it can give us traction to change the system..." [interview starts at 6:30]

[kenwoodallpromos]

Shapiro blamed trainer, jockey, and legislator/lawyers for lax penalties, and said Ca racing needs over 800 drug tesats for horses. Crazy stuff!
He basically admitted drugs are out of control of racing itself to control.
I disagree- as far as I know, tracks have total control and discrection over stall allotments and "handicap" assigned weights. If cheating trainers get punished by less stall space and added weight, it is as of today no lawyer's business and not up for argument or discussion.

[JPinMaryland]

You might want to check what Barry Irwin (Team Valor) has to say about the integrity issue. He says that only drugs issued by the racing commission medicine cabinet to specific vets/hosses should be legal. Good idea IMHO.




I wonder if it would be even simpler for every drug that's administered to a horse, the vet reports it to the racing board. ANd the info is posted publically.

Vets already have to keep records for every time they give out meds, I assume. So I guess the paper work should not add much work, or almost none.

Would this be possible or am I missing something?

[kenwoodallpromos]

I wonder if it would be even simpler for every drug that's administered to a horse, the vet reports it to the racing board. ANd the info is posted publically.

Vets already have to keep records for every time they give out meds, I assume. So I guess the paper work should not add much work, or almost none.

Would this be possible or am I missing something?
I suggested a leg injury report followed the horse; Summit people want full medical record on microchip to be open to inspection.
Would be very easy since racers go maybe 2 year careers.