Gates a realist?

[46zilzal]

Robert Gates, the White House choice to be the next defense secretary, conceded today that the United States is losing the war in Iraq and warned that if that country is not stabilized in the next year or two it could lead to a "regional conflagration."

if this guy were a horse the program might say "blinkers off"

[kenwoodallpromos]

Robert Gates, the White House choice to be the next defense secretary, conceded today that the United States is losing the war in Iraq and warned that if that country is not stabilized in the next year or two it could lead to a "regional conflagration."

if this guy were a horse the program might say "blinkers off"
______________
There is a bright new intel officer who will help in Iraq, I just saw his interview last night on TV:
Brigadier General Custer. (No joke)

[Tom]

I think what he said was that we werre not winning the war. That is not the same as losing it. I do not think he would say he thought we were losing.

[Lefty]

Robert Gates, the White House choice to be the next defense secretary, conceded today that the United States is losing the war in Iraq and warned that if that country is not stabilized in the next year or two it could lead to a "regional conflagration."

if this guy were a horse the program might say "blinkers off"

Tom's right, he did not say we were losing. And guess you, zilly, also missed the part where he said we won every military battle.

[OTM Al]

I appreciated his candor and I hope he is sincere. Some reevaluation was long overdue.

Lefty, as an aside, that isn't the best sort of quote to focus in on. Isn't that exactly what all the generals in Vietnam said as well?

[46zilzal]

confirmed 95-2......looks like the is getting co-operation

[46zilzal]

Tom's right, he did not say we were losing. And guess you, zilly, also missed the part where he said we won every military battle.
THEY said the same thing in that little Southeast Asian war too....What did it get them? >45,000 dead that's what.

[Lefty]

46, do you know how many we lost in ww11? You know how many were taken prisoner? Do you know how many defeats we suffered. Good thing Churchill and FDR didn't just give up eh?
BTW, Oliver North reported from Iraq last night or 2 nights ago. The soldiers there say things not near as bad as our press reports. The press keeps focusing on the negative, the peoples just hear the negative and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. We cannot let Al Qaeda and Iran get control of Iraq.
I think the Col he was talking 2 said violence was down 70% in last yr and i think he was in Ramadi. Didn't hear that played up in the press or tv, eh?

[46zilzal]

that dream world still surrounds you doesn't it?

[Secretariat]

I think what he said was that we werre not winning the war. That is not the same as losing it. I do not think he would say he thought we were losing.

Yanks - 2
Non-Yanks - 6

Comment: In the above Yanks are not winning. Ergo, Yanks are losing, or maybe it's tie?

Yanks - 2
Non-Yanks - 2

Perhaps Gates should have been asked if it was tie.

[Lefty]

that dream world still surrounds you doesn't it?
Are you saying WW2 was a dream? Are you saying it wouldn't be bad if Al Qaeda and Iran controlled Iraq? Can you say anything that doesn't sound like your sneering at someone? Doesn't take any smarts to post negative after negative comments without explanation.

[46zilzal]

WW2 has NOTHING to do with the stupidity of going to Iraq.....Insanity

[46zilzal]

TEN poor guys got it today in that quagmire......

More and more wasting of life

[Tom]

Yanks - 2
Non-Yanks - 6

Comment: In the above Yanks are not winning. Ergo, Yanks are losing, or maybe it's tie?

Yanks - 2
Non-Yanks - 2

Perhaps Gates should have been asked if it was tie.

I realize you do not fully comprehend ENGLISH, but he SPECIFIALLY said we are not losing. You read too much 46 - that'll rot your mind.

[46zilzal]

strange, the first entry was a direct statement from CNN.....

[Lefty]

TEN poor guys got it today in that quagmire......

More and more wasting of life
So you're ok with letting these brave people die in vain and get out of Iraq; leaving it to Iran and other assorted bad guys? Is that your position?

[Lefty]

WW2 has NOTHING to do with the stupidity of going to Iraq.....Insanity
You don't understand analagy very well, eh, 46.
You don't answer direct questions; just make comments. Nothing to it, being negative, easy to do. Don't you understand the threat of Iran taking over Iraq?

[delayjf]

At the VERY LEAST, the US invasion of Iraq prompted Libya into giving up their WMD programs. Our military actions were not a waste - unless of course you support "The Rights" of terrorist supporting Governments to own such weapons. The US and the World are safer with those programs and weapons off the market. While you may ignore that fact - you cannot deny it.

[JPinMaryland]

At the VERY LEAST, the US invasion of Iraq prompted Libya into giving up their WMD programs...

How has it done with respect to No. Korea, Pakistan and Iran??

[JustRalph]

How has it done with respect to No. Korea, Pakistan and Iran??

There is one big difference. KHaddaffi Duck got a U.S. Missile thru the front window of his home and killed his daughter. He barely escaped. That is what I call a motivating factor................

[46zilzal]

You don't understand analagy very well, eh, 46.
You don't answer direct questions; just make comments. Nothing to it, being negative, easy to do. Don't you understand the threat of Iran taking over Iraq?
A-N-A-L-O-G-Y

[Lefty]

Yes, I misspeled analogy 46, so what? At least I can do a proper one. I had a typo, oh my god. You sweat the small stuff but won't answer questions as to why you say the negative trhings you do. We had bigtime defeats in WW11 and lost a lot of men. We are at war with the same type of fanaticism; an attempt to terrorize the world. What's so different except we had resolve in WW11 and that resolve was bolstered by the press instead of attempting to undermine it.

[JPinMaryland]

The difference is WW II was fought by an alliance. It is possible to activate huge portions of your manpower reserves when you have allies you know will cover your back and are in it for the long haul.

If you want the US to call up all its reserves and start to dip into civilian manpower you will cause long term effects on the economy, graduation rates, etc. And all this when the rest of the world is not at war. So the US will lose competiveness in other areas to those nations not at war. It will hurt long term.


So you have a different plan, eh? Okay answer this:

1 What do you envision as victory in Iraq? A democratic, secular state that is a shining beacon for the rest of the mid east? Do you regard this as do able?

2. How many men are you wiling to spend on this project?

[Ponyplayr]

The difference is WW II was fought by an alliance. It is possible to activate huge portions of your manpower reserves when you have allies you know will cover your back and are in it for the long haul.

If you want the US to call up all its reserves and start to dip into civilian manpower you will cause long term effects on the economy, graduation rates, etc. And all this when the rest of the world is not at war. So the US will lose competiveness in other areas to those nations not at war. It will hurt long term.


So you have a different plan, eh? Okay answer this:

1 What do you envision as victory in Iraq? A democratic, secular state that is a shining beacon for the rest of the mid east? Do you regard this as do able?

2. How many men are you wiling to spend on this project?
I don't believe that a secular state will ever happen in a Muslim country. If it could end up like Kuwait or the Emirates that would be a victory.

As for how many men I would be willing to spend??? Not one of ours..As Patton said..You serve your country by making the other poor dumb SOB die for his. Make them pay the price.
We should not interfere in the Civil War...Let them kill each other until the people grow sick and tired of the war..Only the Iraqis can end the conflict.

[Lefty]

The difference, JP, that in WW11 everybody in america was on the side of america. Now we have either idiots or traiters in the media focusing only on the negs and causing american people to discount the thrteat of the maniacs that are out to convert the world to Islam.
Do you think we should leave Iraq to Iran and Al Qaeda?
Victory is when Iraq can keep Iran and Al qaeda at bay. If they can't then we must.

[46zilzal]

Make them pay the price.
We should not interfere in the Civil War...Let them kill each other until the people grow sick and tired of the war..Only the Iraqis can end the conflict.
and you cannot STUFF any form of government down a people's throat. THEY have to come up with one. Can you imagine an occupying army in 1792 telling colonists what kind of government they should have? Even if it were uptopian people would fight it just because it was not their choice..

[JPinMaryland]

How much influence can we really have there anyway? We obviously cant get them to be secular, seems religion is the only sort of culture that they belong to. Democracy may be possible, but there are like no other states in the area that are into that, except Israel and maybe Lebanon??

SUre its great to talk about how half this nation sucks ass and are traitors but what do you really think will happen if yo send 500,000 troops to Iraq? What will you change? It can be argued that we are creating more terrorists by being there?

What then? Do you still argue for the staying there if you are creating more terrorists? I dont know if that is true or not but the one guy I really know who served two tours over there, says that's what is happening. Maybe he's right maybe he's not right...

I sure wouldnt count on Oliver North to tell me what is going on over there. Jeezus, has that guy ever said one critical thing of the US military? Maybe if you google Oliver North and mistake maybe you can find one, but I doubt it.

Yeah Oliver North says things are much better than the media is reporting. Now I know we are screwed.

[JPinMaryland]

There is one big difference. KHaddaffi Duck got a U.S. Missile thru the front window of his home and killed his daughter. He barely escaped. That is what I call a motivating factor................

Yeah that is excellent point. One stupid bedouin guy w/ a fourth rate military gets a missile through his tent and we stopped him from going nuclear.

WOo Hoo, we stopped LIbya from going nuclear! :jump:

What about crazy leaders from real countries with real military, like Iran, or Pakistan or Korean. You know they actually have guys in Pakistan who can do the math for this stuff.

When's the last time you met a physicist or mathematician from Libya?

[JPinMaryland]

Now we have either idiots or traiters in the media focusing only on the negs and causing american people to discount the thrteat of the maniacs that are out to convert the world to Islam.
...

Please. The media has gone along for this ride since day one. It's a perfect example of mass hysteria. Terrorists bomb NYC and WDC and everyone is scared shitless. ANd too afraid to criticize the gov't.

Bush says we wont respect the Geneva convention, or do what the UN says. And we're going to invade a foreign nation without provocation. Where was the press to pt. out the precedents he was setting?

Powell tells the nation that IRaq has little bitty warships in the Atlantic ocean with tactical nukes that are ten minutes away from us. Did anyone in the press doing any digging on that one? How could anyone w/ any sense believe that?

Or the fuel rods from Niger. The press was obvoiusly going along for the ride on that one, since every freakin news paper ran the same story: "SUre the fuel rods are BS, but there is plenty of other evidence against Saddam. Probably some overzealous agent planted some evidence, but trust us we have the goods."

That was the same story in every freakin news paper, I mean it was like word for word the same story. "Rogue agent", "over zealous", "mountains of evidence". Some guy in the White House basement typing that up.

Think about it. The NSA completely messed up on the WMD, thinking Saddam had them. Complete morons, buffoons. But somehow the NSA was smart enough to tell Powell that the fuel rod story was BS. How is that possible? Just explain that one. How idiotic did the press have to be to miss that one?

Do you remember after the Gulf war when everyone asked like why didnt Bush I invade Iraq? And the answer was..."there would be a civil war". And so how come when DIck Cheney says "they will greet us as liberators." no one challenged this. What happened in the 10 years to change everything?

Did you notice that the media only started to call this thing a civil war after the last election left the dems in charge of both houses? I was calling this thing a civil war two years ago,why? Cause people from the same nation were killing each other..




Victory is when Iraq can keep Iran and Al qaeda at bay

You mean like before the US invasion?

[PaceAdvantage]

Terrorists bomb NYC and WDC and everyone is scared shitless. ANd too afraid to criticize the gov't.

Really? I don't see it....in fact, I think most have grown way too complacent over the past five years.

As for criticism of the government....are you kidding me? There has been nothing BUT criticism of the government ever since those on the left came away from Nov. 2000 with the feeling that Bush "stole" the election.

[hcap]

PAAs for criticism of the government....are you kidding me? There has been nothing BUT criticism of the government ever since those on the left came away from Nov. 2000 with the feeling that Bush "stole" the election.Really now? I guess this goes along with your contention that the left also hijacked most of the off topic as well.

The media rolled over for bush months before the invasion. Lapdogs are too nice a description.

10,000,000 world wide protestors against the invasion of Iraq were dissed by editorial pages and the beltway establishment pundits as naive hippies

News guys became military embeds. Or can you sat "IN-Beds"

How'bout Jessica Lynch, the wounded girl heroe who allegedly killed several Iraqi soldiers before she was captured and held prisoner for several weeks?
Bought into bullshit.

The stage-managed pull-down of saddam's statue in baghdad?
Bought into bullshit.
Pat Tilman?
Bought into bullshit.

Last throes was accepted as fact.

We are winning accepted as fact.

Remaking the Mid East the accepted mantra.
Bought into bullshit.

Pre-emption, a departure from 200 years of traditional American foreign policy. Remember the bold and kick ass COWBOY bush persona that youse jack asses bought into that glorified a new brand of jingoism?

Bought into by the press and the bush cultists. And sold to the American people as the new better product. Oh yeah, not to be trotted out until as Andy Card said, after the summer.

It wasn't until recently say the last year that serious doubts surfaced into the mainstream press and public. In other words -you can't fool all the people all the time. Looks like the cowboy was dimestore. And the townsfolk are in deep shit for the next 10-20 years.


As I have said. It is high time for the right to admit the failure and not shift blame to others in the same camp. The neocon circular blame game. And to say "There has been nothing BUT criticism of the government ever since those on the left came away from Nov. 2000 with the feeling that Bush "stole" the election" is nonsense. We were a very small voice in the mainstream. Until now.

[Secretariat]

Hcap,

We're still a small voice. How many real liberals ever get to speak for example on the sunday talk shows? When's the last time Katie Courich gad someone like Michael Moore or Gore Vidal for an interview as opposed to Rush Limbaugh? When has Barbara Boxer or Russ Feingold ever been on Meet the Press to experss their viewpoints rather than someone like Rice or traditional GOPers? Few and far between.

The front cover of the N.Y. Post with conservative James Baker and moderate Lee Hamilton in monkey outfits being called the surrender group illustrates quite clearly who is in charge of media.

[Tom]

Hcap,

We're still a small voice. How many real liberals ever get to speak for example on the sunday talk shows? When's the last time Katie Courich gad someone like Michael Moore or Gore Vidal for an interview as opposed to Rush Limbaugh? When has Barbara Boxer or Russ Feingold ever been on Meet the Press to experss their viewpoints rather than someone like Rice or traditional GOPers? Few and far between.

The front cover of the N.Y. Post with conservative James Baker and moderate Lee Hamilton in monkey outfits being called the surrender group illustrates quite clearly who is in charge of REALITY.


Katie - she interviews people who are somehow famous, wll known, who will generate ratings which equal profits. MM - most think of him as a twit, and many moore don't even know who he is.

Sunday shows? Clealry, you have guest who are IN POWER, who DO THINGS, not those who do nothing but sit on the sidelines and whine.
You will se dems on the Sunday shows soon enough - when they are in power, they will have something to offer.
And if you miss wack-o lib guests, just tune in to Chris Mathews anytime - that's all he has. His show is called Spitball.:kiss:

[PaceAdvantage]

And to say "There has been nothing BUT criticism of the government ever since those on the left came away from Nov. 2000 with the feeling that Bush "stole" the election" is nonsense. We were a very small voice in the mainstream. Until now.

Yeah, whatever. Leading up to the 2004 election, there was NOTHING BUT criticism. Hell, even Hollywood bankrolled a major motion picture that did NOTHING BUT CRITICIZE. That was well over TWO YEARS ago....and I can go back further. Bush has had a target on his back ever since the 2000 elections...in fact, the only "break" he got came in the immediate aftermath of 9/11.

Stop trying to paint a different picture. You make it seem as though Bush and the NYT were in orgiastic bliss for 5 years, up until the mid-term elections.

Baloney.

[PaceAdvantage]

The front cover of the N.Y. Post with conservative James Baker and moderate Lee Hamilton in monkey outfits being called the surrender group illustrates quite clearly who is in charge of media.

Oh yeah the NY Post, that most respected, venerable institution of journalism.

You guys are KILLIN' me with LAUGHTER today! Keep up the good work!

(The NY post in charge of the media....priceless! :lol: :lol: )

[JustRalph]

They act like they never heard of Dan Rather and his attempts at influencing a Federal Election with forged documents. He should be in prison.

[hcap]

This was par for the right, when we dared bring up reality.

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tmate/2006/tmate061207.gif

[JPinMaryland]

As for criticism of the government....are you kidding me? There has been nothing BUT criticism of the government ever since those on the left came away from Nov. 2000 with the feeling that Bush "stole" the election.

YOu are missing the pt. I am talking about the run up to the War in IRaq. The justifications were obviously ludicrous on their face. I just listed a bunch of them.

It's the very same thing Kerry and Hillary and a lot of other congress people are saying: "Bush fooled us." Yeah if you were so dumb to be fooled by that, then maybe you are too dumb to be on Capitol Hill.

THe parable of the King having no clothes is surely apt for that period. Trouble is people only realize it in hindsight.

[PaceAdvantage]

The justifications were obviously ludicrous on their face. I just listed a bunch of them.

If they were so obviously ludicrous (and I must admit, I don't recall hearing about tiny ships with nukes on them floating off in the Atlantic....where did you get that one?) how come most everyone in Congress went along?

If you can't put faith in the intelligence you are getting, what can you put faith into when it comes to national security?

[JPinMaryland]

If they were so obviously ludicrous (and I must admit, I don't recall hearing about tiny ships with nukes on them floating off in the Atlantic....where did you get that one?....

I know I heard this my own two ears. I could have sworn it was Colin Powell but I will try to Google for you.

I dont blame you for doubting this; it sounds like so much BS. Maybe I was on acid that day, who knows? But I swear I heard him say this.

Back to google...


..... how come most everyone in Congress went along?


Gee you got me. Like I said, it seems like most of these guys were so afraid t say anything in time of National panic, or whateve you want to call it.

They all got together on the Capitol steps and sang America the Beautiful or some such. It was a nice rallying cry, no doubt. But it illustrates the level of togetherness and willingness to go along for the common good.

They gave Bush carte blanche to do whatever it takes in Iraq. Maybe not the best idea in hindsight, maybe not a bad idea. BUt whatever, it does show how willing Congress was to trust and to go along with this stuff.

The Patriot Act was another example. Maybe it was needed maybe not, but few had the balls to pt. to out that this was something unprecedented in American history. Those who are so fond of pointing out analogies to WW II ought to research and see if that sort of legalized back then. Again, whether it was constitutional or not, very few had any objection. The press was totally cowed at that pt.

[JPinMaryland]

Here it is. It was Bush himself who made this claim:


"George W. Bush has done Cheney one better, twice claiming that the United States went to war because Saddam wouldn't let inspectors in...He also told us about the famed attempts to buy uranium from Niger...He also told us, in a speech on October 7, 2002, that there was evidence that there were plans for Iraq's"unmanned aerial vehicles," which "could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons," to be used in "missions targeting the United States." Experts in Air Force intelligence scoffed at the idea of those vehicles being able to dispense biological agents in a damaging way, but more important, the maximum range of the vehicles is 400 miles; perhaps the State Department's geography experts could have told Bush about the Atlantic Ocean."

source:

http://www.counterpunch.org/mahajan02032004.html

[JPinMaryland]

Here's the actual quote from the speech; it was a public speech so I dont think there is a copyright issue:


"Iraq possesses ballistic missiles with a likely range of hundreds of miles -- far enough to strike Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey, and other nations -- in a region where more than 135,000 American civilians and service members live and work. We have also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We are concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles) for missions targeting the United States. And of course, sophisticated delivery systems are not required for a chemical or biological attack -- all that might be required are a small container and one terrorist or Iraqi intelligence operative to deliver it.."

Here is link to the entire speech:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/07/national/main524627.shtml

Drone airplanes with chemical AND biological agents. I knew the rest of the speech was BS the moment I heard that.

Now, can you show me some so called main stream liberal media that challenged this claim before the invasion?

[delayjf]

Think about it. The NSA completely messed up on the WMD, thinking Saddam had them. Complete morons, buffoons. But somehow the NSA was smart enough to tell Powell that the fuel rod story was BS. How is that possible? Just explain that one. How idiotic did the press have to be to miss that one?

Easy, the NSA is not omnipotent; they got one right and one they got wrong. Had the Clinton administration not handcuffed the NSA by not allowing them to use human intel, we might have been better able to confirm whether Iraq had a nuclear program or not.

Again, look at Libya, We didn’t know their programs were so far advanced. They were using Pakistanis technology, was funded by Iran and was aided by many Iraqi scientist.

I just praying that all that missile technology that the Clinton Administration approved for export doesn’t make it’s way into the wrong hands.

[PaceAdvantage]

Drone airplanes with chemical AND biological agents. I knew the rest of the speech was BS the moment I heard that.

Now, can you show me some so called main stream liberal media that challenged this claim before the invasion?

Why is this so far-fetched? Compared to your initial post, where you stated "itty bitty warships carrying tactical nukes," the drone aircraft claim sounds entirely plausible.

Let's face it, ANY AIRPLANE is capable of carrying biological or chemical weapons. IF Iraq was looking into, or actually trying to develop a drone aircraft (and this is entirely within the realm of possibility), why would the press challenge this claim? Creating a drone aircraft isn't the hardest thing in the world to do at this point....wouldn't you agree?

Now, creating a drone aircraft capable of flying from Iraq to NY is another story....but the creation of a drone aircraft itself isn't terribly difficult. And, since any aircraft is capable of carrying and dispensing chemical or biological weapons, this claim by Bush which seems to have you so aghast really isn't all that far-fetched, when examined closely.

Only those with proper security clearances know the whole truth....you and I can only speculate.

[Tom]

Jeff posted:
"Again, look at Libya, We didn’t know their programs were so far advanced. They were using Pakistanis technology, was funded by Iran and was aided by many Iraqi scientist."

Oh, you mena those WMD that got uncovered and turned over to us becasue of the Iraq war? thoses that, if we had not gone into Iraq and scared the bejesus out of Kadaffy Duck might well be in the hands of terrorists today?

Bottom line, the Iraq war DID take EMD out of the hands of terroists. End of story. Anyone here ever refuse the money when they got moved up on a disqualification?

[JPinMaryland]

Now, creating a drone aircraft capable of flying from Iraq to NY is another story....but the creation of a drone aircraft itself isn't terribly difficult. And, since any aircraft is capable of carrying and dispensing chemical or biological weapons, this claim by Bush which seems to have you so aghast really isn't all that far-fetched, when examined closely....



YOu really can argue just about any idiotic pt. you like with that logic cant you:

"Nuclear material really is fissionable, so I guess it's quite likely Saddam has a nuke."

"You know, they use tubes in nuclear reactors so I guess Saddam probably really is buying nuclear material from Niger."

"There really are nations that exist in Africa, so I guess it's a good bet that Saddam has bought nuclear materials from some of them.."

"The people really hate Saddam so they probably will greet us as liberators."

"Barbaro only races every five weeks so he most likely has soundness issues."

[PaceAdvantage]

You keep asking why the press didn't go to town on Bush pre-Iraq invasion, and I gave you sound reasons why this was so....with the best being, they had no reason to!

Your 20-20 hindsight is INDEED flawless, I will give you that, but then again, red-boarders on a horse racing board tend to never get much respect.

[JPinMaryland]

Why dont you ask anybody w/ a knowledge of the modern military about the quoted passage about drones w/ chemical weapons what they think of the statement?

[PaceAdvantage]

Why dont you ask anybody w/ a knowledge of the modern military about the quoted passage about drones w/ chemical weapons what they think of the statement?

Drones aren't out of the realm of possibility. They exist today. Hell, I can buy an unmanned aircraft from radio shack for less than $50....:lol:

A plane with chemical and/or biological weapons isn't out of the realm of possibility either. Therefore, why would a drone with chemical and/or bio be out of the realm of possibility?

[Tom]

A plane with chemical and/or biological weapons isn't out of the realm of possibility either. Therefore, why would a drone with chemical and/or bio be out of the realm of possibility?

The Japanese experimented with these in the 40's.
They had a buch of nasty stuf fon the drawing boards, so it was good we took them out when we did. Had we waited, not nuked them, things could have gotten dicey.

[JustRalph]

JPIN, you need to watch more discovery channel........those drones are being programmed by 400 dollar GPS's now. I saw a show where some guys in Atlanta came up with a drone that was four feet long and they used an off the shelf Garmin unit to make it fly 50 miles out and come back and landed in one of their yards.

[JPinMaryland]

Wow 50 miles! Saddams' fly 10,000 miles over land and sea and right past american air space.

[Show Me the Wire]

Wow 50 miles! Saddams' fly 10,000 miles over land and sea and right past american air space.

In your reality, do you think it would be possible a terrorist on a ship in international waters (12 miles from the coast) could target American mainland with a drone capable of a 50 mile radius?

Remember the planes used on 9-11 did not depart from the Middle East.

[JustRalph]

Wow 50 miles! Saddams' fly 10,000 miles over land and sea and right past american air space.

Show me the wire already answered you. BTW, even our drones don't fly 10k miles. Below is info on our stuff........Global Hawk being the gold standard.
There are a few missing from this list. I found this on a Nasa Site. If we can do it. The bad guys can too.

Unmanned Aerial Vehicle Endurance (Hours) Payload Weight (Pounds) Altitude

Aerosonde 40 hrs. 2.2 lbs. 20,000 ft.
Altus2 24 hrs. 330 lbs. 65,000 ft.
BQM-34 1.25 hrs. 470 lbs. 60,000 ft.
Exdrone 2.5 hr. 25 lbs 10,000 ft.
Global Hawk 42 hrs. 1,960 lbs. 65,000 ft.
Gnat 750 48 hrs. 140 lbs. 25,000 ft.
Pioneer 5.5 hrs. 75 lbs. 12,000 ft.
Shadow 200 4 hrs. 50 lbs. 15,000 ft.

[Tom]

Some people do not understand technology. The wheel and fire overwhelmed them and they stopped. Evolution on hold. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

[Show Me the Wire]

Some people do not understand technology. The wheel and fire overwhelmed them and they stopped. Evolution on hold. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Tom:

I think PA needs to collect tuition from some posters for the education recieved. ;)

[JPinMaryland]

which of these drones did we find in Iraq?

[46zilzal]

Majority say history won't be kind to Bush

By Susan Page / USA Today

WASHINGTON — History's view of George W. Bush will be harsh, Americans predict.

In a USA TODAY/Gallup Poll taken Friday through Sunday, a 54% majority says Bush will be judged as a below-average or poor president, more than double the negative rating given any of his five most recent predecessors.

Just 19% expect him to be seen as outstanding or above average, placing him last among the six. Bush, re-elected in 2004, now trails three presidents who were rejected by voters when they sought second or full terms, including his father, George H.W. Bush.

[Show Me the Wire]

However, barring any unseen tragic events he will have completed two full terms unlike the predecessors you cite.

The poll that counted, the elections, he rated high enough to win.

BTW what does a poll about the President's ratings have to do with the subject or topics of this thread? :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

BTW what does a poll about the President's ratings have to do with the subject or topics of this thread? :bang:

Nothing....another attempt at diversion.

[46zilzal]

Nothing....another attempt at diversion.
Gates is his appointee and has his work cut out for him especially since he seems resistant to changing his "vision."

[hcap]

If drones made of balsa wood constitute WMDs, we have lowered the definition of Weapons of MASS DESTRUCTION. Powell should have added drones to his discredited speech at the UN. Just imagine including the threat from "circling wooden pea shooting mini aircraft" to 1000s and 1000s of TONs of sarin. They'd still be rolling on the floor. :lol: Powell would qualify for standup on the Tonight Show. But of course it does sound like reason enough for all youse guys to dress up as soldier and march off into the horizon.

The speech that he regretted big time and would-according to him-take back.

I don't think we went to war, on the basis of the evil drone threat.
By this definition, we better get real busy pre-empting and shock and awing half the worlds' regimes-the ones that are hostile to us thanks to deer leedur.

Neverending wars based on neverending bullshit.

BTW, Saddam smuggled his fleet of killer drones off to Syria. Buried next to the Camel dung pile. Why don't youse guys personally go over there and dig, and report back to us, and while your at it give bush somethin' to say when he addresses the nation in January. Hey maybe he already knows they're there and will suprise us- having found the DMDs.
Drones of Mass Destruction.

[PlanB]

Hcap, I think your too harsh on Powell. What do you do for a living? I ask that because sometimes the pressures are enormous & you just don't want to travel down the lonely-isolated road. I think Powell was OWNED. totally, as in 100%. #43 plus others could ruin that guy like the Swifties did to Kerry, and I was NOT a Kerry cheerleader. These guys play mean. Forget THAT speech.

[hcap]

Just making a comparison between balsa wood drones and mushroom clouds a-loomin'.

Exageration is the name of the game and that's what was done. Three card monty. Now that we all see there ain't nothin under the last switched walnut shell, they start the game again. This time blowing up a pea into a B52. Guess what, it ain't any more and never was a "gathering storm".

Churchill would be turning in his grave being used by this wannabe war president.

Powell lied. Why? He went along maybe as a good soldier. He still lied.
At least he is disavowing. Even called Iraq as a civil war recently.

[hcap]

http://www.antiwar.com/engelhardt/?articleid=10159

War Without End
by Tom Engelhardt and Michael Schwartz
Tom Dispatch

"Once upon a time, there was a retired general named Paul van Riper. In 1966, as a young Marine officer and American adviser in Vietnam, he was wounded in action; he later became the first president of the Marine Corps University, retired from the Corps as a lieutenant general, and then took up the task of leading the enemy side in Pentagon war games.

Over the years, van Riper had developed into a freewheeling military thinker, given to quoting von Clausewitz and Sun-tzu, and dubious about the ability of the latest technology to conquer all in its path. If you wanted to wage war, he thought, it might at least be reasonable to study war seriously (if not go to war yourself) rather than just fall in love with military power. It seemed to him that you took a risk any time you dismissed your enemy as without resources (or a prayer) against your awesome power and imagined your campaign to come as a surefire "cakewalk." As he pointed out, "Many enemies are not frightened by that overwhelming force. They put their minds to the problem and think through: how can I adapt and avoid that overwhelming force and yet do damage against the United States?"

.....In July 2002, he got the chance to test that proposition. At the cost of a quarter-billion dollars, the Pentagon launched the most elaborate war games in its history, immodestly entitled "Millennium Challenge 02."

....Lt. Gen. van Riper commanded the "Red Team" – the Iraqis of this simulation -– against the "Blue Team," U.S. forces; and, unfortunately for Rumsfeld, he promptly stepped out of the script. Knowing that sometimes the only effective response to high-tech warfare was the lowest tech warfare imaginable, he employed some of the very techniques the Iraqi insurgency would begin to use all-too-successfully a year or two later.

[hcap]

Maybe da terrarists can maybe use them balsa wood drones to target our satellites?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/13/AR2006121301239.html

The Bush administration warned Wednesday against threats by terrorist groups and other nations against U.S. commercial and military satellites, and discounted the need for a treaty aimed at preventing an arms race in space.

Robert Joseph also said terrorists "understand our vulnerabilities and have targeted our economy in the past, as they did on 9/11." He said terrorists and enemy states might view the U.S. space program as "a highly lucrative target," while sophisticated technologies could improve their ability to interfere with U.S. space systems and services.

Joseph did not identify terror groups or nations that might have such motives. An aide to Joseph, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the matter, said that information was classified.

[46zilzal]

that general and his innovative thought are reviewed in the book BLINK...Of course the powers that be "changed the rules on him" mid-game so that he was assured of losing the war game he was in as the Middlle East dictator.

[JPinMaryland]

Hcap, I think your too harsh on Powell.... I think Powell was OWNED. totally, as in 100%....

I find it hard to believe. Did you read the link above about the aluminum tubes from Niger? Powell said they were used for nuclear weapons because the surface was anodized when in fact anodization renders them incapable of such. Its hard to imagine he would be unaware of something that was obvious to scientists in that field. Like he wouldnt have blown it past someone else he trusts, not someone connected w/ NSA. WOUldnt anyone do that if they were about to accuse Iraq of all this stuff?


Did any of that stuff in BUsh speech turn out to be true or even evidence found to support it? killer drones; WMD; aluminum tubes, purchasing nuclear materials from Africa. Any of that stuff have any support?

Some of you look skeptical at anyone suggesting Barbaro might have been unsound or that maybe Canani can be believed. How then can you look at a speech that is just chock full of omissions, exagerrations, made up stuff, etc. and turn a blind eye?

What happens to your skepiticism when Geo Bush opens his mouth?

[JustRalph]

yep, what we have here is a bunch of military experts............I should have known. You guys are friggin military genius types who know more than anybody else.

[JPinMaryland]

Just another trick question..

[PaceAdvantage]

Just making a comparison between balsa wood drones and mushroom clouds a-loomin'.

What is this in response to? Seriously, what prompted this response? It has nothing to do with anything that was posted. Balsa wood? What are you talking about?

Seriously, do you guys just read every other word in a post, get excited by maybe one or two of those words, then go off and write a post whose only intent it to deflect the discussion off of what is currently being debated?

Yellow journalism at its finest!

[hcap]

Exageration is the name of the game. Take any iota of threat, blow it up totally out of proportion, and there are 1,000's of imminent threats just around the corner. And then when all the bullshit has been proven to be just that, make up anything to cover your asses.

And then there are those on this board that continue with the same. If reality ain't good enough, I guess there's always Dickhead Cheney.



Associated Press......

AL-TAJI, Iraq -- A remotely piloted aircraft that the United States has warned could spread chemical weapons appears to be made of balsa wood and duct tape, with two small propellors attached to what look like the engines of a weed whacker.


News Interactive: An Iraqi drone found by UN weapons inspectors is of "very primitive" design and is definitely not capable of flying 500km as suggested by US Secretary of State Colin Powell, Jane's Defence Weekly said today.

On February 5, Powell told the UN Security Council that the Iraqis possessed a drone that could fly 500km, violating UN rules that limit the range of Iraqi weapons to 150km. " There is no possibility that the design shown on 12 March has the capability to fly anywhere near 500 kilometres," drones expert Ken Munson said on Jane's website (http://jdw.janes.com). " The design looks very primitive, and the engines -- which have their pistons exposed -- appear to be low-powered," he said.

Boston Globe: Duct tape reinforced by aluminum foil held together the black and white drone's balsa wood wings. The wooden propellers and tiny engines were fastened to a well-worn fuselage, fashioned from the fuel tank of a larger aircraft. The words ''God is Great'' were hand painted in red ink on both sides. Perched on a sawhorse at a military research base 20 miles north of Baghdad, the drone looked more like a large school science project than a vehicle capable of delivering chemical and biological weapons. Iraqi officials denied the airplane had any strategic use.


With your logic, gone hafta bomb model aircraft hobyists too.....
http://interestingtimes.blogspot.com/sig_030312.jpg

Gotta take out this guy too

http://www.phorton.com/rockets/MeWithRecentRockets.jpg


Exagerations....

1. Powell relies on FORGED documents to link Saddam to terror.

MSNBC: "They have been the closest of allies. But under the intense pressure of a diplomatic crisis at the United Nations and an imminent war in Iraq, the friendship between the United States and Britain is beginning to fray. The most recent strain emerged when U.N. nuclear inspectors concluded last week that U.S. and British claims about Iraq's secret nuclear program were based on forged documents. The fake letters supposedly laid out how Iraqi agents had tried to purchase uranium from officials in Niger, central Africa."

MORE: http://www.msnbc.com/news/883164.asp?cp1=1

CNN: WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Intelligence documents that U.S. and British governments said were strong evidence that Iraq was developing nuclear weapons have been dismissed as forgeries by U.N. weapons inspectors.

MORE: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/14/sprj.irq.documents/index.html

Sydney Morning Herald, Australia: The head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, Mohamed ElBaradei, has demonstrated that UK and US intelligence authorities relied on forged documents to support assertions that Iraq was trying to buy uranium in Africa.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/03/15/1047583740556.html

LA Times: WASHINGTON -- Phony weapons documents cited by the United States and Britain as evidence against Saddam Hussein were initially obtained by Italian intelligence authorities, who may have been duped into paying for the forgeries, U.S. officials said Friday. The documents, which purport to show Iraqi efforts to acquire uranium from Niger, were exposed as fraudulent by U.N. weapons inspectors last week. The matter has embarrassed U.S. and British officials.

Bush/Powell LIE about Iraq's Nuclear capabilities concerning "aluminum tubes":

ABC News: Before Congress, and in public, President Bush and Secretary of State Colin Powell have repeatedly pointed to aluminum tubes imported by Iraq which they say are for use in making nuclear weapons. But on Friday, head United Nations nuclear inspector Mohammad ElBaradei told the Security Council that it wasn't likely that the tubes were for that use. ElBaradei also said that documents Bush had cited and relied upon to make the case that Iraq tried to buy uranium from a country in central Africa were fake.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/2020/GMA030310Iraq_weapons_evidence.html

Washington Post: The finding: Iraq had tried to buy thousands of high-strength aluminum tubes, which Bush said were "used to enrich uranium for a nuclear weapon." But according to government officials and weapons experts, the claim now appears to be seriously in doubt. After weeks of investigation, U.N. weapons inspectors in Iraq are increasingly confident that the aluminum tubes were never meant for enriching uranium, according to officials familiar with the inspection process. The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), the U.N.-chartered nuclear watchdog, reported in a Jan. 8 preliminary assessment that the tubes were "not directly suitable" for uranium enrichment.

How bout when Deer Leedur trumpeted "We found the WMD's"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/11/AR2006041101888.html

"On May 29, 2003, 50 days after the fall of Baghdad, President Bush proclaimed a fresh victory for his administration in Iraq: Two small trailers captured by U.S. and Kurdish troops had turned out to be long-sought mobile "biological laboratories." He declared, "We have found the weapons of mass destruction."

The claim, repeated by top administration officials for months afterward, was hailed at the time as a vindication of the decision to go to war. But even as Bush spoke, U.S. intelligence officials possessed powerful evidence that it was not true.

.................................................. ........

"An official British investigation into two trailers found in northern Iraq has concluded they are not mobile germ warfare labs, as was claimed by Tony Blair and President George Bush, but were for the production of hydrogen to fill artillery balloons, as the Iraqis have continued to insist."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,977853,00.html

[Tom]

Nothing more than those web crawlers that seek out key words and then attack. Hcap - what you araedoing is the same thing Bush is doing with his wire tapping - looking for key words or phrases and then focusing in.

[JPinMaryland]

Same way Bush makes speeches?

[Lefty]

Same way Bush makes speeches?
You must be taking lessons from zilly on debating style.

[46zilzal]

all of this "fact making," or acutally fact making up, isn't new. Both Johnson and Nixon did the same thing so they could have their surrogate war vs. those "Godless" commies.

[Tom]

Doesn't that make him a racist?
50% of himself is being denied equal representation.

[Show Me the Wire]

Doesn't that make him a racist?
50% of himself is being denied equal representation.


Sorry Tom I deleted the post you were referring to.

[Tom]

Sure, cut off my legs - leave me out there dangling in the wind, looking stupid! :rolleyes:


That's ok, I can take it. :lol: