1:32.2

[46zilzal]

Undefeated Cat

[Suff]

tied track record.

[First Time Blinks]

Very fast track. Certainly an impressive performance but my guess is nowhere near as fast as Easy Goer's Gotham in terms of figures.

My guess is about 113-115.

[ELA]

Very fast track. Certainly an impressive performance but my guess is nowhere near as fast as Easy Goer's Gotham in terms of figures.

My guess is about 113-115.

Question -- does it matter? He wasn't racing against Easy Goer or his speed figure.

Eric

[46zilzal]

Question -- does it matter? He wasn't racing against Easy Goer or his speed figure.



agree this one moved away after 1:07 and change

[First Time Blinks]

Question -- does it matter? He wasn't racing against Easy Goer or his speed figure.

Eric

Just trying to put it in perspective. The comment was made about him tying EG's track record.

[Suff]

I did'nt think the track was fast at all. 107 and he only dangled the whip...he never touched him. And he was pressed pole to pole....excluding inside the 1/16th where he just rolled off.


Not a figures guy, but I'd bet its sky high.

[First Time Blinks]

Not a figures guy, but I'd bet its sky high.

I'll defer to CJ, but you'd have to give Badge and 'Train 110's or better to make this much higher than 115.

As for the track not being fast, crappy NYB NW1's ran 7F in the opener in 122 1/5.

[46zilzal]

performances can be impressive without some nebulous reference points.

[First Time Blinks]

I agree, it was impressive. I've been a fan since he broke his maiden at SAR. I'm always interested on how it fits in from a historical perspective. That's just me.

[classhandicapper]

The track was lightening fast, but this was an extremely impressive performance no matter how you slice it. If "anything" the inside paths were a tad better today. At first I thought his early 3 wide move to stay with Siver Train was a bit overly aggressive and premature, but it worked out well when Sharp Humor backed out of there so quickly. He stayed with ST while in hand in 107 3/5 and drew off nicely late when asked. Based on the margins, time etc... it looks like both Siver Train and Badge of Silver fired very good efforts. That means it should earn him impressive pace and final time figures against quality competition. IMO, this was his best lifetime effort.

I'd love to see him against Invasor at 9F. Too bad we can't see him against Bernardini. Let's pray that now that they have their Grade 1 they don't find some mysterious illness or physical problem that causes a premature retirement (if you know what I mean).

[KirisClown]

Scary good horse, for those who missed it.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_4tZHFYf0U

[shanta]

He's got some "Freak" in him for sure
Rich :)

[Suff]

I didnt see any races until the 5th. Nothing there makes me think lightning fast. I watched the races....and didnt see the track as glass?:


Maybe its me. I did see two other miles go in ho hum times 136 and something...even the finale was ho hum NY'rs time 136.x....Remsen wasn't scorching. I'm not an aficionado on pace. I saw the races and just use my sense of whats going on. Nothing I saw would lead me believe Discreet Cat benefited from an unusually fast track. Doesnt make much difference. The fact is we saw at least two very unique thoroughbreds race in NY today. I'm up in the air as who ran the better race...Business or Discreet. I know Business laughed at his competition....Discreet had his hands-full early but shook them off with something to spare.

Barcley Tagg with a Derby Horse. A legitimate Derby Horse. Even Funnycide was a wishy washy derby runner. Despite going off at 11.90 to 1 he was a big question mark. Tagg's got a tiger by the tail now.

[sevenall]

I'd love to see him against Invasor at 9F.

I think we already did...in the UAE Derby....

[Snow Chief]

. . . and he beat him by 8 lengths!

[46zilzal]

. . . and he beat him by 8 lengths!
you namesake had the same running style, just not the same velocity

[JustRalph]

Barcley Tagg with a Derby Horse. A legitimate Derby Horse. Even Funnycide was a wishy washy derby runner. Despite going off at 11.90 to 1 he was a big question mark.

That opine is why he went off at 12-1. I was loving it and considered him a real threat to win all along. After the Wood I was all over him. I thought he was legit.

I gotta watch the video on these two today. thanks for the heads up.

[PaceAdvantage]

He was awesome....no other word to describe it....

Silver Train ain't no slouch, and DC dusted that one after SERIOUS early fractions. Silver Train ran a helluva race too, let's not forget that....

People always talk about a jockey being able to make a horse run faster if he asks him to....however, it is pretty clear, at least in this instance, that TOUGHER COMPETITION for a FREAK of a horse is what REALLY makes them run faster....

Bernardini had his shot in the BC Classic, but came up a tad short. Discreet Cat faced tougher in the Cigar Mile and took your breath away....man I hope this one keeps going after Dubai....

[Indulto]

He was awesome....no other word to describe it....

Silver Train ain't no slouch, and DC dusted that one after SERIOUS early fractions. Silver Train ran a helluva race too, let's not forget that....

People always talk about a jockey being able to make a horse run faster if he asks him to....however, it is pretty clear, at least in this instance, that TOUGHER COMPETITION for a FREAK of a horse is what REALLY makes them run faster....

Bernardini had his shot in the BC Classic, but came up a tad short. Discreet Cat faced tougher in the Cigar Mile and took your breath away....man I hope this one keeps going after Dubai....While DC ran another visually impressive race, I disagree that he faced better in the Cigar than Bernie did in the Classic, assuming that your intention was to compare their merits as 3YO champions.

Even if Silver Train was the same horse who defeated Sun King in the Met Mile (and his prior race suggested he was not), Invasor also photo'd Sun King in the Whitney, and then both he and Bernie both not only beat Sun King again, but also another of the latter's other conquerors, Premium Tap, who just came back to win the Clark.

I doubt that Badge of Silver is the same horse he once was either.

The Sheikhs now have an opportunity to put on the race of the 21st century in Dubai. The meeting of DC, Invasor, and Bernie would rival that of Damascus, Dr. Fager, and Buckpasser. Throw in Premium Tap with a more convenient live post time on free TV, and the ratings could be sky high provided nothing else is going on in the Middle East at that time.

The Sheikhs could put a damper on many of their detractors by making it happen.

[Cratos]

The ‘Cat was simply magnificent whether the track was souped up or not. This horse ran a 21.34 second quarter to move briefly ahead of Silver Train at the half before Silver Train would continued on to grab the lead at the three-quarters in a sizzling 1:07.75. But the ‘Cat was about prove that he wasn’t a fluke as he moved to the lead after 7 furlongs and drew away to win going away.

What was most impressive to me is that he had a ½ length lead on Badge of Silver at the quarter and beat him by 3 ¼ lengths at the finish with Badge of Silver being the beneficiary of the early speed duel.

[ELA]

The ‘Cat was simply magnificent whether the track was souped up or not. This horse ran a 21.34 second quarter to move briefly ahead of Silver Train at the half before Silver Train would continued on to grab the lead at the three-quarters in a sizzling 1:07.75. But the ‘Cat was about prove that he wasn’t a fluke as he moved to the lead after 7 furlongs and drew away to win going away.

What was most impressive to me is that he had a ½ length lead on Badge of Silver at the quarter and beat him by 3 ¼ lengths at the finish with Badge of Silver being the beneficiary of the early speed duel.

I never like to get into these debates. However since there are so many of them, I want to throw my hat in the ring. LOL.

I agree with you -- great performance regardless of the track condition. I tend to look at a horse (and his performance) with my own analysis of "potential" and tend to view that as a factor to some extent; now, that may or may not be a contributory factor but like many I tend to look at how easily a horse is doing whatever he is doing and who he is doing it against. That's neither here nor there.

In this case, I am certain plenty of people will talk about how the track was souped up. I watched the card. I am not going to say it was souped up to break a track record and I am not going to debate that the maidens went this, the a-other-thans went that, etc. You can easily say that while some of the other races went comparitively fast those races shaped up and had horses going trips just like the Cigar Mile.

Discreet Cat's individual splits were what they were, but after Sharp Humor was done, Discreet Cat was picked right up and had to battle Silver Train. Belmont horse or not, on his game today or not, he is no slouch. He has the class that Discreet Cat had not faced until today and he looked him right in the eye. Did Discreet Cat benefit from Sharp Humor's 1/4? OK, but as soon as he benefited there was a new battle with Silver Train. Did Badge of Silver not benefit even more from that opening 1/4, and from the ensuing Discreet Cat/Silver Train dance?

Discreet Cat put away Silver Train. Asked him, didn't ask him, so what. He put him away -- and then he opens the distance on Badge of Silver who benefited more than Discreet Cat did.

For the critics, sure, he needs to show more to truly prove he is a great horse and go down as such. He needs to accomplish more, have more notches in his belt and a more in depth resume. But he looks like he might be on his way. He looks like he has the potential. And today he did one thing that the critics said he had never done before. Actually, the opposite -- today instead of beating nobody, he beat somebody. Maybe more than one. Hopefully in the future he will be able to have more days where he could do more things.

Eric

[Stevie Belmont]

Let’s put the whole thing into perspective. One says the track was jacked, it was. They all ran on it. Advantage... No one.

Oh Bernie was bested by less?

The Cat beat a horse that never ran a bad race before or after that race. Invasor is junk based on that effort? Still would not have won that day. Not the point. Blah blah blah, it’s easy to figure out. Yeah right.

Here’s the reality. Discreet Cat ran a race that you will look back on one day and say I remember that brilliant overpowering performance that tied a track record.

No one should be shocked either.

Let’s not deal in fantasy, but respect a brilliant real performance by a super horse.

[Tom]

I'll wait until CJ comes our with variants for the day. Last thing I want to do is get all excited over the next big thing. I 've seen a lot of "super horses" this year.:rolleyes:

Maybe Cat is for real.......like I say, I'll wait and see the figs.

Now, who gets Srinter of the year? The BC winner won again today.

[kenwoodallpromos]

I'm not surprised racing cannot get as many fans as other sports with all the negative criticism! The newbie reads the racing press and sees Baze trashed when going for the all-time record, Lake going for the year-win record with dope problems, a top tier horse getting whacked because its track record time trashed, stupid T.Times readers picking a dead horse for "best" honors.
Too many negatives at the top for new fans to endure.
Baze is getting some major newspaper coverage without being accused of taking steroids. That's the good news.
As I said before, racing is in desperate need of decent PR!

[Hank]

Not since the KING of the speed horses have I seen one attend that type pace while appearing to be in a relaxed gallop:eek: .Now carry that speed 10 panels under 138 vs hall of fame caliber foes and be crowned the new KING OF THE SPEED HORSES;)

[Tee]

BSF - 116

[PlanB]

He was awesome....no other word to describe it....

Silver Train ain't no slouch, and DC dusted that one after SERIOUS early fractions. Silver Train ran a helluva race too, let's not forget that....

People always talk about a jockey being able to make a horse run faster if he asks him to....however, it is pretty clear, at least in this instance, that TOUGHER COMPETITION for a FREAK of a horse is what REALLY makes them run faster....




I AGREE 100%. My only 2 thoughts are these: #1, the track was speed favoring. Not 100% but if you bet 1st fraction speed you did well; plus all the times were very fast including Race#1, a ALW for NW1's. And, #2, the DC race was a 1-turn mile which plays crazy with fast horses. YET, the performances were awesome.

[DrugSalvastore]

I believe Discreet Cat is the first 3-year-old to win a Grade 1 against older males as the outright highweight, since Easy Goer won the 1989 Whitney Stakes.

Not that I really agree with Steve Davidowitz on this point---but from his excellent book 'Betting Thoroughbreds' on page 186.

"When a three-year-old is assigned actual top weight in a race for horses three years and up, thre three-year-old has little or no chance of winning. I SUGGEST YOU READ THIS AGAIN"

Davidowitz goes on to use statistics showing the alarmingly weak rate of
success such horses have shown. Including producing only 35 wins from over 600 starts over a course of 20 years.

A big historical example would be Secretariat's loss in the '73 Whitney, as the highweight, losing to the lowly Onion, who was an allowance horse for much of his career, and never won a stake race before or after.


Sure the track was fast today, and look, I've seen enough of Discreet Cat to have Ghostzapper like faith in what he is capable of . I was honestly hoping for a lot more than the performance he delivered today---but, this is horse racing, and these horses have limitations. Winning a Grade 1, against older males, in very fast time, and doing it with such style---even those of us who've been 100% obsessed with this horses mind-boggling raw talent...we can't certainly be disappointed with anything we saw today.

Bernardini had a score of sensational big-figure wins---BUT, every single one of them came with absurdly DREAM trips. What's amazing--is that in every start this year, with exception to the Jerome Handicap, Discreet Cat has had rather difficult trips...not average trips---pretty difficult ones!

His return race in Dubai--he got left, had dirt kicked in his face for the first time and was VERY rank for almost a furlong. The UAE Derby, he was part of an INTENSE mid-race gallop, and he SIZZLED two OLDER world class superstars (Simpatico Bribon and Invasor) into terrible defeats. He fractured the field in behind him. His Saratoga ALW score came despite a terrible tactical trip. He was rated back hard early, and taken off a pace that was SLOWER than a MCL race on the same card---that pace was set by subsquent Graded Stakes winner Accountforthegold. Discreet Cat made a four-to-five wide move on the turn, and just obliterated a field of pretty damn decent horses, who all had better tactical trips then he had in that race. In the Cigar Mile today, he got bumbed around a little, mooved sooner than he wanted to and found himself in a tricky spot between horses. It didn't matter.

If this horse ever gets an uncontested lead, through very comfortable fractions, over a speed biased racetrack...you may see that once in a lifetime type performance! This horse has the talent, that if he ever gets all the things to break in his favor in a race, he will throw a fig that can flirt with Ghostzapper's 128 Beyer in the '04 Iselin Handicap

[classhandicapper]

I'd love to see him against Invasor at 9F.

I think we already did...in the UAE Derby....

We didn't see the same version of either horse that they are now on that day, but IMO, especially Invasor.

[classhandicapper]

While DC ran another visually impressive race, I disagree that he faced better in the Cigar than Bernie did in the Classic, assuming that your intention was to compare their merits as 3YO champions.


IMO there is no comparison between the Cigar field and the BC Classic field. The Classic field was better and WAAAAY deeper. But I do think Silver Train and Badge of Silver are of high enough quality to think that DC demonstrated he has a lot in the tank when tested.

[classhandicapper]

Bernardini had a score of sensational big-figure wins---BUT, every single one of them came with absurdly DREAM trips. What's amazing--is that in every start this year, with exception to the Jerome Handicap, Discreet Cat has had rather difficult trips...not average trips---pretty difficult ones!


I have to disagree wth the DC trip part.

Those would have been difficult trips for a horse entered against others of similar ability. However, when you are clearly vastly superior to your competition, what appears to be a difficut trip is actually very easy because the pace and competitive demands of inferior horses are weaker.

To me, his first verifiably real test came yesterday and he passed with flying colors.

The Invasor he beat in Dubai was not the horse same horse that eventually became champion older horse. He was off a layoff, lasix free, had yet to spend time in a barn that did a great job developing him etc... Aside from the Timeform rating for that race (which was not outstanding), another horse (I believe the 2nd place finisher that also finished ahead of Invasor) came to the US and was pretty much a non entity here. I'm a fan of comparative handicapping, but this is one time I think the Invasor/Discreet Cat matchup in Dubai says nothing about the quality of DC's performance that day.

[Stevie Belmont]

Maybe the Cat is for real. Are for real?



I'll wait until CJ comes our with variants for the day. Last thing I want to do is get all excited over the next big thing. I 've seen a lot of "super horses" this year.:rolleyes:

Maybe Cat is for real.......like I say, I'll wait and see the figs.

Now, who gets Srinter of the year? The BC winner won again today.

[PaceAdvantage]

While DC ran another visually impressive race, I disagree that he faced better in the Cigar than Bernie did in the Classic, assuming that your intention was to compare their merits as 3YO champions.

INSANITY would be about the only excuse someone could have for thinking the Cigar Mile field was better than the BC Classic field....do you think I'm insane?

Nope, my intention was to simply illustrate how each horse responded when facing their toughest fields to date, RESPECTIVELY.

[Tom]

Maybe the Cat is for real. Are for real?

No, I'm the boogie man.
Don't turn out your light tonight.

Like I said, I'll wait for the figs to come out, thank you. Meanwhile, YOU can be amazed at whatever turns you on.

[dylbert]

Discreet Cat has not competed in two-turn race. Until that time, DC is just another one-turn speedball. One hell of a one-turn speedball! DC had homecourt advantage over Invasor in UAE Derby. I wonder how he would handle two-turns in Uruguay?

Based on recent performances, I make Discreet Cat -- 3-year old champion. Thor's Echo -- sprint champion. Invasor -- Horse of the Year and champion older horse.

[samyn on the green]

Like I said, I'll wait for the figs to come out, thank you. Meanwhile, YOU can be amazed at whatever turns you on.Why are you saying this? Figs and computers are a tool that help form opinions. When you use figs and computers to circumvent the eyes and mind you are losing out on the deepest benefits of the game. Open your eyes, sharpen your mind and use tools to do rely in them.

Lets review this race and the brillance of Discreet Cats performance. First he was bumped at the start and lost a few lenthes. Dueled Sharp Humor into the ground off a fast half time. Then went toe to toe with the formidable BC sprint champion Silver Train on his home track while spotting weight. Look closely at this part of the race. Discreet Cat is in a gallop and they drilled 6F is 107 and 3 which is 1 tick of the track record, the game Silver Train takes a lead all the way to the 8th pole before Gomez gets serious and then Discreet Cat disposes of this foe while not feeling the stick.

At the 8th pole we then had Badge of Silver looming 1 and 1/4 lenths behind, Badge Of Silver sat a great trip with a sizzling pace set up and plenty of run and one furlong to make up 1 and 1/4 lenthes. What does Discreet Cat do? He opens up and defeats BOS by greater than three lenths after engaging is a long and heated duel with two very fast horses.

99.999% of horses could not run 107 and 3 and duel two Grade 1 sprinters into the ground. Of the .0001% that could could gallop on a pace like this only .0001% of those could open up on Badge Of Silver who was in the fortunate position of closing stoutly into a pace duel . This Discreet Cat is a one in a million horse.

Discreet Cat is the horse we have been waiting for. There it is I just said and took a stand. It is clear to me that Discreet Cat is close to unbeatable up to 10 furlongs. Cut in the mold of Dr. Fager he has the potential to be an all time great.

[dylbert]

99.999% of horses could not run 107 and 3 and duel two Grade 1 sprinters into the ground. Of the .0001% that could could gallop on a pace like this only .0001% of those could open up on Badge Of Silver who was in the fortunate position of closing stoutly into a pace duel . This Discreet Cat is a one in a million horse.

One in a million! This horse did not participate in Triple Crown. He has competed in very carefully selected races. I don't think I would label him as one of the greatest yet.

Today's proliferation of races with large purses is just making it easier for horses to earn large sums of money versus mediocre competition. Also, it allows horse like Bernardini and Discreet Cat to garner very positive press (and postings in forums such as PA) when they triumph over these lesser fields.

I will sing DC's praises when he run two-turns beyond 1-1/8 mile. Otherwise, he is just an extremely fast miler who will throwoff some precocious speedballers -- but never a classic winner.

[Tom]

Why are you saying this? Figs and computers are a tool that help form opinions. When you use figs and computers to circumvent the eyes and mind you are losing out on the deepest benefits of the game. Open your eyes, sharpen your mind and use tools to do rely in them.

99.999% of horses could not run 107 and 3 and duel two Grade 1 sprinters into the ground.




Which is it, your eyes or the clock? You just made my point, thank you. If you didn't have the times for that ace, would it look that impressive? Hell no. Nice race, yes, one in a million? Get a life. And a 107 without a variant to me is a broken teltimer.
Sirry, this horse has got to do hell of a lot more befreo I call him great or even outstanding. Weh he beats GR1 horses a 10 futlongs,and chalks up good times, and odes it repeatedly, then I'll be impresses, but until then, I saw Secretariet, Forgo, Seattle Slew, and countess others whose coat he could hand up at the awards dinners.
Looking at all the races, his time look to be fast, but like I said before, I'll wait for the figs to come out.
And BTW, when is he going to go around two turns? 1 turn miles, to me are NEVER impressive bu anyone. But, he might be a good one. Thern again, he might be the next Sinister Minister.

[Cratos]

When asked the question whether handicapping was a science or an art, the late Phil Bull of TImeform replied:

“A bit of both - It can never be an exact science because OPINION as well as FACT is involved.”

[cj]

I'll wait until CJ comes our with variants for the day. Last thing I want to do is get all excited over the next big thing. I 've seen a lot of "super horses" this year.:rolleyes:

Maybe Cat is for real.......like I say, I'll wait and see the figs.

Now, who gets Srinter of the year? The BC winner won again today.

I guess Thor's Echo must win now, eh?

As for the Cigar Mile, I get 119 - 115 pace - speed.

[Stevie Belmont]

You have no idea what your talking about. Im sorry. Stick to your politico jabber and try to get that 20,000 post before New Years.

Sinister Minister? Does anyone take this serious?

DC is 6 for 6...Won every race in a fast time, and each race was better than the last. And yesterday ties a track record while beating a Met Mile and BC sprint champ and a gutsy BOS. Not good enough for ya Tommy?

Uh let me check da figs first though. I can't decide for myself if he was good or not.

Which is it, your eyes or the clock? You just made my point, thank you. If you didn't have the times for that ace, would it look that impressive? Hell no. Nice race, yes, one in a million? Get a life. And a 107 without a variant to me is a broken teltimer.
Sirry, this horse has got to do hell of a lot more befreo I call him great or even outstanding. Weh he beats GR1 horses a 10 futlongs,and chalks up good times, and odes it repeatedly, then I'll be impresses, but until then, I saw Secretariet, Forgo, Seattle Slew, and countess others whose coat he could hand up at the awards dinners.
Looking at all the races, his time look to be fast, but like I said before, I'll wait for the figs to come out.
And BTW, when is he going to go around two turns? 1 turn miles, to me are NEVER impressive bu anyone. But, he might be a good one. Thern again, he might be the next Sinister Minister.

[Indulto]

INSANITY would be about the only excuse someone could have for thinking the Cigar Mile field was better than the BC Classic field....do you think I'm insane?

Nope, my intention was to simply illustrate how each horse responded when facing their toughest fields to date, RESPECTIVELY.As YOU might say, "Where did I say I thought you were insane?" We do, however, need to discuss another 6-letter word: "unfair." :D

As to your "intention" to "illustrate" .... INVISIBLE! :lol:

[DrugSalvastore]

The Invasor he beat in Dubai was not the horse same horse that eventually became champion older horse.

Invasor had been training with Kiran prior to that race.

Simpatico Bribon was really the attraction in that race though---forget about Invasor. Invasor was just a simple triple crown winner and horse of the year in Uruaguy that had never been tested coming into that race...

while Simpatico Bribon, was bet to 6/5 favortisim against Discreet Cat, Invasor, and the undefeated Group 1 star Gold For Sale---was INSANELY hyped...and would have been vying for favortisim had he passed on the UAE Derby and instead choose to run in the Dubai World Cup.

It will be interesting to see how the Discreet Cat VS Simpatico Bribon VS Invasor re-match turns out, assuming all three run in the Dubai World Cup next year.

Ian Jory, Best Pal's former trainer, assured everyone that Simpatico Bribon would gallop in that race and personally talked about him like he was Spectacular Bid. After his loss, finishing behind Discreet Cat (and even Invasor!) he bothered to run a series of tests on him...and he claimed that he was drugged prior to the race.

[the little guy]

How do you think second place finisher Testimony compares to Invasor...you know the horse he also buried in that race?

[DrugSalvastore]

I know you watched the race---I know you noticed that Testimony got a once-in-a-lifetime trip that day, and was passing a field of horses that had been left fractured from the strong mid-race gallop.

If you compare Discreet Cat's trip to Testimony's trip in that race---you will see that Testimony's was markedly better...and still, he was 2nd beaten 6 lengths, and to say he never looked threatning at any stage would be a massive understatement.

Discreet Cat and Testimony both got a big break in weight from the three South American older horses..I think like 8 or 9 pounds on something like a 131-to-123 scale if I remember...which probably couldn't have hurt either.


California racing has taken a massive hit by the UAE Derby. In year's past, all three of the big South Americans, Simpatico Bribon, Invasor, and Gold For Sale probably would have been in the barns of a Mandella, McAnalley, or Frankel---and they would have feasted out there...on the likes of Lava Man and an out of place Giacomo.

Think back to the '97 Santa Anita Handicap, you had three South American runners, all trained by Dick Mandella, running 1, 2, and 3. With Siphon, Sandpit, and Gentleman making up the trifecta in that order.

Lot of good horses like Bayakoa, Ribboletta, Candy Ride, Gentlemen, Leriodesanemeuax, Paseanna, Different, Siphon, Malek, Sandpit, Puerot Madero etc. came to So Cal by way of South America. Those types now seem to be going elsewhere..and that's really hurt the older horse divisions out there.

[the little guy]

DrugS, Testimony is a ten claimer....and you know it. Are you telling me Sir Tyler T would have been second in that race with Testimony's trip.

Sorry, the performance that day by Testimony brings all Godolphin horse's performances into question in my book?

[DrugSalvastore]

Discreet Cat has not competed in two-turn race. Until that time, DC is just another one-turn speedball. One hell of a one-turn speedball! DC had homecourt advantage over Invasor in UAE Derby. I wonder how he would handle two-turns in Uruguay?


There is no reason at all to suggest that DC can't get a Classic distance.


This "he's never done it before so how do we really know" stuff can get a little silly.

Discreet Cat's dam was a Grade 1 winner at 1 1/4 miles. Discreet Cat's 2nd dam is a full sibling to a Kentucky Oaks winner. Discreeet Cat's is related to superstar siblings Touch Gold and With Approval through his 3rd dam. Touch Gold won the 12 furlong Belmont Stakes. With Approval has a Canadian Classic win at 12 furlongs and was himself, a triple crown winner in Canada.

Here's what we know, Discreet Cat has an endurance laced female family, he has shown over and over that he can rate, and he finishes races in a style that gives every indication he will appreciate further ground.

Oh yeah, winning a 9 furlong stake race in career start number three, over a trio of South American stars, doesn't exactly scream distance limitations either.


There is no rational reason to think this horse will not handle any added distance.

[the little guy]

Would you stop with Pretty Discreet's phony win in the Alabama in the mud. Did you also know she was run down from behind at 5F, after stalking and making the lead at the eighth pole, in her debut?

[DrugSalvastore]

DrugS, Testimony is a ten claimer....and you know it. Are you telling me Sir Tyler T would have been second in that race with Testimony's trip.

Sorry, the performance that day by Testimony brings all Godolphin horse's performances into question in my book?


Watch the race again Andy, Gomez gave him the best trip possible, he got a dream setup, and he was a badly beaten suck-up 2nd picking off a pack of totally spent horses in the very late stage. He was the only horse that wasn't on empty late.

He got the same kind of pace setup Giacomo got in the Breeders Cup Classic when he was beaten 4.5 lengths to the trio of Invasor, Bernardini, and recent 8 length Clark winner Premium Tap. I know you don't really think Giacomo is that good (of course I don't either) but, when inferior horses with that style get great setups, such things happen. Had it been a dead-rail, closer track, in the BC, maybe he even tags Bernardini out of 2nd.

Testimony got more than just a sweet pace setup for his style though, he got a dream trip to go along with it.

I believe we argued about this same thing before either Discreet Cat and Testimony came to America to race this year. I picked DC to win the Kentucky Derby off his performance that day---and I called Testimony "a trap" in the Peter Pan stakes off his effort in that race.

Testimony was probably thriving physically coming into that race as well, or he wouldn't even have been entered. I don't think the performance was nearly as good as you seem to.

[DrugSalvastore]

Would you stop with Pretty Discreet's phony win in the Alabama in the mud. Did you also know she was run down from behind at 5F, after stalking and making the lead at the eighth pole, in her debut?

So were a lot of good route horses.

Arazi, for example, was home free on the lead in his debut going 5 furlongs on the turf in Europe...he got tagged late...and didn't lose again that year.

Including a win in the Breeders Cup Juvie where he exploded from 13th to draw off. Basically, they just let him gallop the early stages away, and cut him loose for one big move.

Take Pretty Discreet out of the equation--you still have a 2nd dam that's a full sib to a Ky Oaks winner, and a Belmont Stakes winner and Canadian Triple Crown winner through the 3rd dam.

[the little guy]

Oh, I have little doubt Testimony was " thriving physically ". In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if he may was " feeling no pain ".

Anybody that saw Testimony as a 2YO knew he had less chance in the Peter Pan that two fat guys in a horse suit. He was a bum then and, perfect trip or not in Dubai, was always a total bum.

I know you picked Discreet Cat to win the Derby and luckily for me I have been personally around your handicapping genius to know that in spite of that you are a very knowledgable handicapper. In fact....you are, as I mentioned before, my own personal Jesus.

You proved that when you were the ultimate pacifist when that big dude was yelling at me on the street ( not to mention your sheepish behavoir around the woman and her supposed poodle ).

[the little guy]

So were a lot of good route horses.

Arazi, for example, was home free on the lead in his debut going 5 furlongs on the turf in Europe...he got tagged late...and didn't lose again that year.

Including a win in the Breeders Cup Juvie where he exploded from 13th to draw off. Basically, they just let him gallop the early stages away, and cut him loose for one big move.

Take Pretty Discreet out of the equation--you still have a 2nd dam that's a full sib to a Ky Oaks winner, and a Belmont Stakes winner and Canadian Triple Crown winner through the 3rd dam.

I'm sure you're right about his breeding, but unlike you I saw Pretty Discreet run more than a few times, and I'm sick of hearing what a great distance influence she is from you. Your other examples hold far more water to me.

You know what, we will find out, as I am guessing he will be most effective up to a mile, but considering the overall competition he still may well be good enough going further. I just think his best races will be at a mile. If I were Invasor I would have a different prerace meal than last year on Dubai World Cup Day.

[DrugSalvastore]

You know what, we will find out, as I am guessing he will be most effective up to a mile,

And what are you basing that on?


He rates very kindly. He only ran so fast early in the NYRA Mile because his hand was kind of forced early.


You have told me you don't believe there is much of a difference between a one-turn route and a two-turn route....so, the fact that he's never been two turns can't be a knock for you.

Visually, he seems to look like he can see out a classic distance.

To me, it seems like you are saying he's best suited to a mile because of the way Godolphin has managed him along this year.

[the little guy]

I'm just trying to piss you off.

How's it working so far?

[DrugSalvastore]

I'm just trying to piss you off.

Because I'm jealous of your unbelievably good looks!

Who isn't TLG....who isn't.


Sunday Silence got caught on the lead sprinting in his debut. He's the sire of your favorite Jap horse Deep Impact.

DI also seems to just gallop away the early stages of all his races from back in last place or near last place---and he also has a sensational move when they cut him loose for his one late run.


We have teamed up to take a thread about the great Discreet Cat and make it worse. Are you happy now?

[the little guy]

Who isn't TLG....who isn't.


Sunday Silence got caught on the lead sprinting in his debut. He's the sire of your favorite Jap horse Deep Impact.

DI also seems to just gallop away the early stages of all his races from back in last place or near last place---and he also has a sensational move when they cut him loose for his one late run.


We have teamed up to take a thread about the great Discreet Cat and make it worse. Are you happy now?

First of all, I consider Deep Impact an " asian american " horse. Let's just get this straight, I may have many issues, but I'm nothing if not politically correct.

I had a second point ( you know...." first of all " implies there's a " secondly " ) but I realized I was further embarrassing myself.

And by the way....happy? You've got to be kidding. The last time I was happy water was pouring out of my ceiling in Saratoga.

[KirisClown]

Would you stop with Pretty Discreet's phony win in the Alabama in the mud. Did you also know she was run down from behind at 5F, after stalking and making the lead at the eighth pole, in her debut?

What are you talking about? Pretty Discreet was a monster and you know it.... The Alabama win was worthy of a special eclipse award that year...How may horses can claim to have beaten Rogues Walk and Friendly Beauty by open lths?

It only took an ungodly Secretariat-like performance from the immortal Love Tunnel to beat her in that debut...

[the little guy]

What are you talking about? Pretty Discreet was a monster and you know it.... The Alabama win was worthy of a special eclipse award that year...How may horses can claim to have beaten Rogues Walk and Friendly Beauty by open lths?

It only took an ungodly Secretariat-like performance from the immortal Love Tunnel to beat her in that debut...

Without looking it up....who trained the immortal Love Tunnel. Not to mention...how the hell did THAT name pass the Jockey Club?

[KirisClown]

Carl Domino for the Kinsman Stable.. she was a horse I actually liked back then. I cashed on her a time or two with Chavez...

[the little guy]

Carl Domino for the Kinsman Stable.. she was a horse I actually liked back then. I cashed on her a time or two with Chavez...

You are impressive.

That debut race, as you well know, is part of history in the lore of the third floor of the Belmont Clubhouse. " I'll take it from here Jerry! "

[KirisClown]

I uploaded this one for you... and in case anyone else forgot what a monster Pretty Discreet was... :p

The 1995 Alabama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRG8_UPvdA

You'll hear Durkin cut in and out at times... apparently a bug flew into his mouth during the early stages..

[classhandicapper]

Invasor had been training with Kiran prior to that race.

Simpatico Bribon was really the attraction in that race though---forget about Invasor. Invasor was just a simple triple crown winner and horse of the year in Uruaguy that had never been tested coming into that race...

while Simpatico Bribon, was bet to 6/5 favortisim against Discreet Cat, Invasor, and the undefeated Group 1 star Gold For Sale---was INSANELY hyped...and would have been vying for favortisim had he passed on the UAE Derby and instead choose to run in the Dubai World Cup.

It will be interesting to see how the Discreet Cat VS Simpatico Bribon VS Invasor re-match turns out, assuming all three run in the Dubai World Cup next year.

Ian Jory, Best Pal's former trainer, assured everyone that Simpatico Bribon would gallop in that race and personally talked about him like he was Spectacular Bid. After his loss, finishing behind Discreet Cat (and even Invasor!) he bothered to run a series of tests on him...and he claimed that he was drugged prior to the race.

He may have been training with Kiran, but he was obviously much better at the end of this year then he was when he first showed up here, let alone in Dubai when Kiran just took over, he was off a layoff, without lasix etc...

Did you ever think that since Simpatico Bribon didn't fire a very good race that day for whatever reason that his presence in the race says nothing about Discreet Cat's performance?

There were also other measurements of the race. The estimated speed figures for the race by various sources were not huge and neither was the Timeform.

Look, no one is saying that DC is not a dynamite horse now. We are saying that Invasor wasn't a dynamite horse then. So the victory over him over there doesn't say much.

[classhandicapper]

Here's a replay of the Dubai race for anyone that wants to watch the trip of horses like Invasor, Testimony etc...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCaLL5qh3BQ

Personally, I can't see how anyone could even consider the possibility that the Invasor that ran in that race was on the same planet as the one that developed so well this year.

[classhandicapper]

Here are the TG speed figures that Invasor earned in each of his races this year starting with Dubai and ending with the Classic. There were several horses with established form that ran in Dubai that day that could be used as a basis for making figures. So even though I wouldn't trust them 100%, they are good enough for conversation.

For those that don't know, negative is better than positive. Each point is equal to somewhere between 2-3 Beyer points. They are adjusted for ground loss and weight.

Dubai = Positive 2 3/4
Pimlico = Negative 1 1/2
Belmont = Negative 3
Saratoga = Negative 2
Classic = Negative 3 1/2

[cj]

The horse is shipping back to Dubai for a race in February as a prep for the Dubai World Cup. He then is supposed to ship back for a U.S. campaign.

I'm predicting right now we will never see him race in the U.S. again.

[cj]

Here are the TG speed figures that Invasor earned in each of his races this year starting with Dubai and ending with the Classic. There were several horses with established form that ran in Dubai that day that could be used as a basis for making figures. So even though I wouldn't trust them 100%, they are good enough for conversation.

For those that don't know, negative is better than positive. Each point is equal to somewhere between 2-3 Beyer points. They are adjusted for ground loss and weight.

Dubai = Positive 2 3/4
Pimlico = Negative 1 1/2
Belmont = Negative 3
Saratoga = Negative 2
Classic = Negative 3 1/2

Mine, Beyer scale and using pace as well, were:

Dubai = 96
Pimlico = 110
Belmont = 110
Saratoga = 111
Classic = 112

[classhandicapper]

The horse is shipping back to Dubai for a race in February as a prep for the Dubai World Cup. He then is supposed to ship back for a U.S. campaign.

I'm predicting right now we will never see him race in the U.S. again.

Unfortunately, you are probably right. The only reason they probably aren't retiring him now (he has his Grade 1) is that they want to win the big one in Dubai.

Could you imagine a race between Discreet Cat, Bernardini, Invasor, and everyone else that develops between now and then?

It would be like the old days.

[Indulto]

It would be like the old days.If so, look for a Discreet Rabbit. ;)

[Tom]

You have no idea what your talking about. Im sorry. Stick to your politico jabber and try to get that 20,000 post before New Years.

Sinister Minister? Does anyone take this serious?

DC is 6 for 6...Won every race in a fast time, and each race was better than the last. And yesterday ties a track record while beating a Met Mile and BC sprint champ and a gutsy BOS. Not good enough for ya Tommy?

Uh let me check da figs first though. I can't decide for myself if he was good or not.

So everyone must agree with YOU to be right, eh?
Like you know everything about horse racing?
When's your book coming, out dude?
When are YOU getting your show on TVG?
What paper do your selectio appeaer in?

You are just the same as, me, dude - we both got an opinoin and a butt. Neither of your is any better than mine! So get your head out of yours.

[Cratos]

Regardless, Invasor was nearly 4 years old, 3 years and 8 months old with 5 lifetime starts (3 at a mile or better); and undefeated when he met Discreet Cat in Dubai in March of this year. The ‘Cat wasn’t even 3 years old and had only 2 lifetime starts with only one of them beyond 6f. The ‘Cat was 2 years 10 months old.

I will acknowledge that Invasor was coming off of a 4 month layoff and the ‘Cat had a race over the Dubai track, but shouldn’t the age difference even things out?

[Stevie Belmont]

I know a great horse when I see it. I know a great preformance when I see.

I have a solid opinion.


So everyone must agree with YOU to be right, eh?
Like you know everything about horse racing?
When's your book coming, out dude?
When are YOU getting your show on TVG?
What paper do your selectio appeaer in?

You are just the same as, me, dude - we both got an opinoin and a butt. Neither of your is any better than mine! So get your head out of yours.

[cj]

I know a great horse when I see it. I know a great preformance when I see.

I have a solid opinion.

Don't make me bring up Who's the Cowboy. ;)

[Stevie Belmont]

I thought Who's The Cowboy was going to be a good horse after his maiden win at Monmouth 2 years ago. And I stated that than. I've also touted other horses that have gone on to do quite well.

Im not gonna start a list. Ive posted for years on the NYRA Board and anyone who knows me there respect my opinion and evaluation of horses.

[cj]

It was just a joke. All I was saying is sometimes visual impressions are great, and tell you more than the figures. Sometimes they fool you and tell you less. Neither are perfect.

[GMB@BP]

I uploaded this one for you... and in case anyone else forgot what a monster Pretty Discreet was... :p

The 1995 Alabama: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBRG8_UPvdA

You'll hear Durkin cut in and out at times... apparently a bug flew into his mouth during the early stages..

thanks kiris, that was another fun and profitable race :lol: