The Russell Baze Debate

[jack300s]

Love him or hate him, deserved or undeserved, Russell Baze will soon become the winningest rider in Horse Racing history. However Baze is remembered, one things for sure, he has conducted himself as a true gentleman in the Horse Racing Business.

Below is a nice article that was in my local newspaper today covering his career with comments by Pincay, Stevens, and others.

http://www.sacbee.com/101/story/82275.html

[SmartyParty]

I have seen him ride Lost in the Fog and ride at county fairs. He almost always has a smile on his face and you can tell Russell loves what he's doing.

[banacek]

Another story on Baze that might be of interest:
http://www.sportofkingstv.com/hosstalk/2006/nov1706.html

[kenwoodallpromos]

That is my motto up North!
Others has been getting favs for a few years- Warren on turf, bugs, Lumpkins and now Kaenel on dirt- but they come and go.
This is a guess, but if Pincay or Shoemaker was riding only up North they might have had more injuries.
I think it is great that many jockeys are able to stay fit enough to get so many wins.
Will AW tracks help jockeys stay healthier?

[boomman]

Two of the true gentlemen in horse racing as well as two phenomenal athletes will be standing side by side when Laffit Pincay relinquishes the most wins in history title to Russell Baze. They both have a love for the game that is awe inspiring and a desire to win that has taken them to great heights that others could only imagine. It doesn't matter where Russell Baze won the lion share of his races, he will accomplish an incredible feat by breaking Laffit's record, and "the pirate" (being the class act he is) will certainly be the 1st to congratulate him!! Boom

[JustRalph]

I still can't get over the "big fish in a small pond" end of it. Not to mention the small fields. Sorry, I don't have anything against him, but I just don't see how it compares.

[boomman]

Ralph: You are certainly correct that Russell Baze's career has been the epitome of " a big fish in a little pond" and the short fields in recent years caused me to stay away from wagering on the No Cal circuit all together (except for the fairs)...However, I still think anyone who wins 10,000 races anywhere (remember when trainer Dale Baird used to win all the races at Mountaineer/Waterford (pre casino days) deserves recognition. Was Laffit's wins for the most part against stiffer competition? They most certainly were, and is recognized as so, but Russell Baze simply stayed where things worked for him and his family in No Cal, and worked his butt off to accomplish what he has.....Boom

[GaryG]

I still can't get over the "big fish in a small pond" end of it. Not to mention the small fields. Sorry, I don't have anything against him, but I just don't see how it compares.I agree. Longden, Shoe and Pincay got theirs riding against the best for their whole career. I hate to see the record go down to a guy who has made his living riding 2-5 shots for Hollendorfer in 5 horse fields.

[Tom]

I'm rooting for him - he got on the horses and rode them - many of them of rather dubious quality. Not the best of the best handed to him. Anyone who can survive at crap tracks like NoCal deserves credit.

[OTM Al]

There is too much obsession with records in this world. I just can't understand why there are people out there that are using this to heap insult on a good man who goes to work day after day and does a very good job at what he does.

[boomman]

Al: That was the point I was trying to make! You hit the nail right on the head! Boom

[The Judge]

Baze rode a horse that I and about 6 others guys bought ,a claimer named "Lady Glorious" trained by Jeff Bonde. I met the guys on the internet turn out they were from the bayarea.

At the fair in Pleasenton I went to the paddock and met Baze as he was about to ride Lady Glorious (I think she ran 3rd don't remember could have been 4th or 5th she didn't win) 115lbs but wrist the size of a linebackers.

The jockey coloney in Northern Cal was pretty good at one time, Ron Hansen, Ron Warren, Tom Chapman,Roberto Gonzalez,Chad Schvaneveldt. When top jocks from other areas wanted the California experience and wanted to make enough to eat many came north first. In addition when jockeys got good up here they when to Southern Cal to ride some of them made it and stayed. This also happened to the really good Northern California horses they went South where the money is. So Russell had some competition.

[banacek]

I agree. Longden, Shoe and Pincay got theirs riding against the best for their whole career.

Most of their careers - my grandfather saw Longden ride in the 1920s in Saskatoon!;)

And I saw Shoemaker win 2 races in Saskatoon! (well that was on his "farewell tour")

[The Judge]

Willie started out up north and got alot of his wins in the north . Baze is the Shoe of his day.

Does anyone know if Pincays Panama wins are in his record?

[kenwoodallpromos]

I just want to remind everyone that Baze's racecards included many days at the Ca fairs where he din not ride anything other than TBreds so skipped races for mules and other breeds. He did not ride Ferndale much. The Ca fairs are 2 weeks then move to another track, 7f to 9f around, some with no turf to give favs a sure thing.
Since I have been observing Ca racing Roberto Gonzales has been the Gateboy, so Baze did not always get the best early speed horse. He did always get the best turf mount as Warren and Sch. got them sometimes. All in all several Northern Ca riders have gotten favs in certain situations or for certain trainers.
If Baze had gotten favs in every race he would have many more victories.
Anyway you slice it, riding 32 years, maybe 6,000 racecards, is a lot of riding and riding a lot of lousy horses along with the "2-5 shots".
If anyone knows this circuit they know 4-5 is a very low winning odds, because some of the 3-5 or 2-5 are still aheapies who are bet based on their last race and often are too worn down to win again or give the big 2nd turn move needed to overtake Gonzales, to outjudge the track from Rollins and Lopez, to out run Warren on grass, to outrun the ITM guy Carr, to stay ahead of the newcomers like when that included Duran (still here), Lumpkins, Gargia, and now Kaenel.
Today he is on 4 of 9 M/L favorites; Wed, Thur, Fri he was on a total of 8 M/L favorites all 3 days.

[GaryG]

Willie started out up north and got alot of his wins in the north . Baze is the Shoe of his day.Not exactly, Shoe got his 1st win in 1949 (I think) and was riding on the SoCal circuit within a couple of years. He was the stable rider for Rex Ellsworth by 1954. Look, Baze is a fine rider but most good riders that start out up there migrate to where the competition and big bucks reside. I am not sure he could make it against the likes of Nakatani, Solis, Flores, etc etc. Or in previous years against McCarron, Eddie D and Pincay. Just my humble opinion.

[JustRalph]

I am not insulting the guy. Geez! I am just saying that I don't think the two records compare.

[jack300s]

As Ralph mentioned. It's hard to compare the two records. When you talk about the top jockeys over the last 20+ years, seldom does Mr. Baze's name come up. I think last year he was #1 in wins, but way down to like #24th on the money list.

IMHO he's a harding working nice guy that gives his all in the mornings, afternoons, and sometimes evenings. You never hear his name come up in regards to scandels, drugs, etc.? When he does leave Northern California to SoCal, Florida, and other places for big races, he does win his share. When other top jocks come to NoCal for the big races, Bazes wins his share.

Big fish in a small pond? Probably so......but, most of his peers respect the milestone he has reached. Breaking Pincays record, reaching 10,000, 11,000, and maybe even 12,000 wins in a career is really something.

I just hope the racing fans finally give him a little respect for what he has accomphlised.

[spilparc]

Russell Baze is the man. This guy can flat out ride. He works his tail off and his accomplishments are nothing short of miraculous.

Try playing Bay Meadows like I have been doing lately, and you'll see that every time Russell has a mount it throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing. You can't bet him and you can't bet against him.

I love it when I'm getting an overlay on him, which happens more often than you think. He loses 70% of his races, so there are overlays elsewhere as well.

It's my wish that Russell would retire soon. I don't want to see him go out with a serious injury like Shoemaker and Pincay did--even Gary Stevens to some extent.

Congratulations, Russell you deserve it.

Steve

[Pace Cap'n]

I just want to remind everyone that Baze's racecards included many days at the Ca fairs where he din not ride anything other than TBreds so skipped races for mules and other breeds. He did not ride Ferndale much. The Ca fairs are 2 weeks then move to another track, 7f to 9f around, some with no turf to give favs a sure thing.
Since I have been observing Ca racing Roberto Gonzales has been the Gateboy, so Baze did not always get the best early speed horse. He did always get the best turf mount as Warren and Sch. got them sometimes. All in all several Northern Ca riders have gotten favs in certain situations or for certain trainers.
If Baze had gotten favs in every race he would have many more victories.
Anyway you slice it, riding 32 years, maybe 6,000 racecards, is a lot of riding and riding a lot of lousy horses along with the "2-5 shots".
If anyone knows this circuit they know 4-5 is a very low winning odds, because some of the 3-5 or 2-5 are still aheapies who are bet based on their last race and often are too worn down to win again or give the big 2nd turn move needed to overtake Gonzales, to outjudge the track from Rollins and Lopez, to out run Warren on grass, to outrun the ITM guy Carr, to stay ahead of the newcomers like when that included Duran (still here), Lumpkins, Gargia, and now Kaenel.
Today he is on 4 of 9 M/L favorites; Wed, Thur, Fri he was on a total of 8 M/L favorites all 3 days.

Now who could argue with that?

[kenwoodallpromos]

Now who could argue with that?
_____
11-25 Baze won 2 of 3 he was sole favorite on, lost 1 he was co-favorite on, and finished ITM in all 4 other races where he was Not on the favorite.

[SAL]

One thing I respect about Baze. He rides $6250 claimers just as hard as he rides $100,000 stakes horses. And the best jocks ALWAYS gets the best horses. No matter what circuit you ride. Joe Bravo owns New Jersey, Pat Day owned Kentucky, Jerry Bailey owned New York. Impressive thing about Baze is that he's been doing it for so long. He gets a thumbs up from me.

[The Judge]

I am sure "The Shoe" raced in Northern California for at least 4 years I couldn't find his race record but it must be from 1,500-2,500 wins in the north. It's the 50's and I'm not too sure there was that much difference in the quality of horses as there is now.

Does anyone "The Shoes" wins in Northern California?"

I know that they had to be better horses because "The Shoe " went there but the north saw the same horses run here as they saw run in the south.

[GaryG]

I am sure "The Shoe" raced in Northern California for at least 4 years I couldn't find his race record but it must be from 1,500-2,500 wins in the north. It's the 50's and I'm not too sure there was that much difference in the quality of horses as there is now.

Does anyone "The Shoes" wins in Northern California?"

I know that they had to be better horses because "The Shoe " went there but the north saw the same horses run here as they saw run in the south.In those days Calif was one circuit. There was no Oak Tree and no Hol fall meet. The SA and Hol meets were also quite a bit shorter. NoCal was a 3 track circuit with GG, BM and Tanforan. Some of the riders rode year round. The quality of NoCal was not quite as good, especially in the non-claiming races, but was much closer than it is today. With the exception of the big stables that shipped north for stakes only many of the trainers were the same as well. The great Bill Molter raced up there quite a bit. I am not saying Baze is not a fine rider and a gentleman, I would just like to see him ride with the big boys.

[cj]

Jockeys can earn a win here and there, but for the most part, they are just passengers. Of course Baze would not have won as many races if he raced with the big boys. However, I am sure he would have done just fine if given the same quality mounts as the top jockeys.

There is something to be said for security, and I don't blame Baze one bit for being the big fish in a small pond. There is a guy a know here in Belgium that plays basketball and makes a VERY nice living, an American guy. He is the star of the league, and has been offered NBA contracts at league minimum. Sure, he could go to say he was in the NBA, but why bother?

We all have our goals. Just as my friend is more than content to have achieved his, why shouldn't Baze be allowed to do the same?

[The Hawk]

Two anecdotes come to mind:

About 10 years ago or so, someone asked Bravo's agent, Danny Mellul, why he won't venture outside NJ and try to make it as a regular in NY. Mellul's answer, paraphrased, was "Here's a 25-year-old guy making $10,000 a week. He should go someplace else and struggle to make it?"

The other, from Blinkers Off on TVG: Matt Carothers is going on and on how Baze should try to make it in Southern California, to prove that he can make it in "the big leagues". Mike Watchmaker pointed out the guy has a family, is probably quite comfortable winning a lot of races, and money, in Northern California. Carrothers doesn't want to hear that, he should pull up stakes and go to Southern California. So Watchmaker tells Matt that he should do the same thing, uproot his family and move east and try to make it on a big network, or ESPN. I don't remember what Matt said after that, but I think it put things in perspective for him.

[Indulto]

Jockeys can earn a win here and there, but for the most part, they are just passengers. Of course Baze would not have won as many races if he raced with the big boys. However, I am sure he would have done just fine if given the same quality mounts as the top jockeys.

There is something to be said for security, and I don't blame Baze one bit for being the big fish in a small pond...cj,
I believe we have reached the same conclusion, but for different reasons. IMO Baze has not been forced to display the undeniable skills possessed by Pincay and Shoemaker because he rode less competitive HORSES with even less competition. Consequently, he had fewer opportunities to show that HE made the difference in the outcome of a race.

However, we can't know that he doesn't have those skills. Certainly, his work ethic, discipline, and courage are comparable to those of the other two. But I give the edge to Pincay there because he had to battle a weight problem whereas Shoemaker did not.

Finally, to ride winners one has to ride horses that CAN win and that requires getting live mounts from the horsemen. When Pincay was not doing well prior to his final resurgence resulting in breaking the Shoe’s record, he considered moving his tack to Baze’s business district. The fact that he didn’t has to be interpreted positively, at least by Baze enthusiasts.

Whatever else has been written to diminish Baze’s accomplishments, at least no one has yet referred to him as a “dumb jock.”

[jack300s]

Hawk,

Good antadotes...I would have loved to have seem Watchmaker ask Carrothers that question.

[44PACE]

How did he do % when he raced in Southern Cal ? Take his # of mounts multiply this by his South Cal win % providing he raced atleast a 100 races and this would be were he would be if he did it like Pincay.


Its the horse that is doing the racing anyways, jockeys are only in it for the ride.

[Buddha]

Its the horse that is doing the racing anyways, jockeys are only in it for the ride.

Or to screw the ride.

I haven't been paying attention to this thread, but saw that comment and had to put something about it :)

[kenwoodallpromos]

Anybody have the % of favs winning at GGF or BM compared to SOCal?

[Murph]

BAY MEADOWS AT A GLANCE Avg. Winning Odds: 5.14 - 1 Favorite Win%: 42%, Favorite Itm%: 78%
HOLLYWOOD PARK AT A GLANCE Avg. Winning Odds: 5.67 - 1 Favorite Win%: 31%, Favorite Itm%: 72%

For the current meetings - clipped from todays Handicappers Edge (http://www.brisnet.com/cgi-bin/editorial/full_edition.cgi)

Murph