Sniper on the loose! [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

GR1@HTR

10-14-2002, 04:52 PM

XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX SUN OCT 13 2002 12:27:09 ET XXXXX

FBI HAS ASKED PENTAGON TO SEARCH RECORDS FOR RECENTLY DISCHARGED GI’S WHO HAD GONE THROUGH SNIPER SCHOOL, FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS TELL TIME

Nearly 1,000 People Working On Sniper Case, Including ATF Units, U.S. Marshals, and State Police

FBI Creating Animated 3-D Computer-Graphic Displays to Reconstruct Crime Scene, In Hopes of Jogging Witnesses Memories

New York -- The FBI has asked the Pentagon to search its records for recently discharged GIs who had gone through sniper school, federal law enforcement sources tell TIME. The schools teach snipers to work in tandem—one as the spotter, the other as the shooter, TIME’s Amanda Ripley reports.

An estimated 1,000 people are working on the case, including Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms units, U.S. Marshals and state police. The FBI. is creating animated 3-D computer-graphic displays to reconstruct the crime scene and help calculate the sniper’s position, in hopes of jogging potential witnesses’ memories, TIME reports.

The Science of Catching a Killer If there’s any consolation for horrified Americans watching the drama of the sniper slayings unfold, it’s that now, more than ever in history, officials have the skills to catch so slippery a killer, TIME’s Jeffrey Kluger reports. Even as the shooter—or shooters—taunted investigators by picking off more victims last week, police unleashed an unprecedented arsenal of tools to crack the case: geographic-profiling computers to try to pinpoint the killer’s location, ballistics databases that might link his unique bullet markings to other crimes, and trace-substance technology to lift whatever clues (fingerprints, DNA) might adhere to a shell casing or a tarot card.

But investigators are less dependent than ever on chance, and what they’ve unveiled this week is only a sampling of what they have in their high-tech kits, TIME reports. Perhaps the most futuristic—and controversial—of the new crime-busting technologies is a procedure known as brain fingerprinting. The principle behind the technique is that when the brain processes an image it recognizes (as opposed to one it has never seen before), it emits distinct electrical impulses that are detectable by scalp sensors. A positive response to a photo of a crime scene may mean a suspect was there before; a negative response may help confirm an alibi.

TIME.com Person of the Week: Charles A. Moose For his role as the unofficial spokesman for the sniper investigation, Charles Moose is TIME’s person of the week. This strong-willed, inveterate leader wants to do it his way — a tall order when you consider the masses of media, federal police and FBI agents swarming around each new crime scene — and second-guessing every move that's made.

Dave Mark

10-14-2002, 06:33 PM

Expert marksmen say shooter is a
coward -- not a sniper

Bill Wallace, Chronicle Staff Writer

Saturday, October 12, 2002

The D.C.-area killer who has shot 10 people in as
many days may be many things, but professional
sharpshooters and tactical weapons experts say it's a misnomer to call him a "sniper."

"Any deer hunter could be making the kinds of shots this guy has made," said retired U.S. Army Maj.John Plaster, a former Special Forces officer who has given training in sniper techniques and specialized weapons tactics to men and women in more than 100 police departments and law enforcement agencies.

The D.C.-area killer, to put it bluntly, is giving snipers a bad name, the sniper Web sites, appalled at the mayhem around Washington, are saying.

"A true sniper is a soldier fighting for his nation, or a law enforcement officer intent on saving lives," says the site www.snipercountry.com in a commentary on the suburban murders. "The person committing the crimes in Maryland fits neither definition and is, at best, a second-rate murderer with a God complex. A
coward in the truest sense of the word."
And an amateur, too.
Plaster -- who literally wrote the book on sniper
operations, "The Ultimate Sniper" -- said
professionally trained sharpshooters from law
enforcement agencies and the military are trained to hit targets from much greater distances than the 100 yards the D.C. killer has been firing from.
The professional snipers also tend to uselarger-caliber weapons in order to ensure that the bullet they fire will kill or incapacitate the person they are shooting at. "One shot, one kill" is the informal
motto of the sniper culture.
"These have almost all been torso shots," Plaster said. "That is the thickest part of the human body,and it is much easier to hit. He is going for the sure hit . . . These shootings wouldn't even require a telescopic sight. This is not amazing shooting."

The D.C.-area killer has been dubbed a sniper by law enforcement agencies and the media since the
shootings began, and the characterization has irked some people who consider police and military
marksmen to be unsung heroes.

A Web-site greeting from Derrick Bartlett, president of the American Sniper Association, summarizes the concept: "The job of the police sniper is to save lives.We save lives by our presence, protectively watching over our teammates.

We save lives with our seeming omniscience,
unseen, but seeing all from our hidden vantage point.Sometimes, circumstances force us to exercise our ultimate power, saving lives by taking a life."
A staffer who declined to give his name at Tacfire, a
Ventura company that trains police sharpshooters,
said: "It's easy for the news media to grab onto a
term like sniper, but using that to describe this killer is an insult to the police and military that serve as snipers."

More of article:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2002/10/12/MN7019.DTL

hurrikane

10-15-2002, 08:27 AM

I'll tell you one thing. I'm living right in the middle of all this. I don't care what they call him. Just catch the M*****F**KER!!

andicap

10-15-2002, 08:35 AM

Hey, watch yourself, H-kane. Are you finding yourself staying indoors much more?

:eek:

hurrikane

10-15-2002, 08:43 AM

The biggest difference is, and it is everywhere you look. No one stands still. People pumping gas are moving all over the place looking around for anythng unusual and moving. You just keep moving. Everywhere you go you feel like someone might have you in their sights and that is real damn scary!
Thinking about takeing the kids, the mom and my girlfriend and getting the hell out of here for a while.

PaceAdvantage

10-15-2002, 12:00 PM

I still have a nagging in my brain that this is the work of foreign terrorists, no matter what the "experts" tell me on TV....

Think about it....

They are targeting an entire MIX of Americans (Black, White, Hispanic, Women, Men, Children...)

They have targeted more than a few at GAS STATIONS (Oil), as well as at MALLS (how ultra-American).

Many eye-witnesses report TWO MEN driving from the scene, so the theory of a lone crazy man is sort of out the window here....

EVERYONE in the area is THOROUGHLY TERRORIZED.

Why do the experts (at least those I've seen on TV), almost completely dismiss the notion that the sniper is a foreign terrorist, continuing the 9-11 agenda????

==PA

andicap

10-15-2002, 12:27 PM

Too scary to think about. If terrorist snipers are shooting in the D.C. area, they could go anywhere, wage guerilla ware against America.

God, what would happen then? What would our recourse be? I don't think invading Iraq would stop Al Qaeda terrorists.

BUT BEFORE WE PANIC, WE NEED PROOF.
It might just be a lone nut.

Here's why I think it's a lone nut.

No one has claimed responsibility. If you were Al Qaeda and wanted to pressure the US to stop interfering in their affairs you would want everyone to know what you were doing. Otherwise, what's the point?

Also, they can do much more damage with a bomb planted somewhere -- despite all the security, believe it's easy to set off a bomb in a public place (look at Israel).

Look at the unibomber, not a terrorist....just a nut.

hurrikane

10-15-2002, 12:44 PM

I don't know. I"ve heard so many friggin theories it could make your head swim. I think the guy is wacked and pretending he's out on special ops or something.
I think if it were a muslim terrorist the tarot card would have read "I am Allah".
One interesting point however is the use of the word policeman. Something someone would have learned if they had learned english as a second language. Don't know any people american born that use that 'proper' phrase for an officer.

BillW

10-15-2002, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by PaceAdvantage
Why do the experts (at least those I've seen on TV), almost completely dismiss the notion that the sniper is a foreign terrorist, continuing the 9-11 agenda????

==PA

Something to consider: (Hopefully!) they are being much more thorough behind the scenes than what they are telling the press (not wanting to tip off that idiot)

Bill

andicap

10-15-2002, 02:38 PM

Bill, I agree.
As a reporter who covers the TV news media, I'm appalled at the all the
leaks that come from law enforcement agencies on these things.
Cops are always using the media to do their dirty work.
Has anyone charged Steven hatfill yet with the anthrax poisoning?
No, but his name has been strewn through the mud, as was
Richard Jewell's (who at least got money out of it after suing
everyone and her mother).

Innocent until proven guilty -- except in the case of the media where
they try you before you are even charged.

PaceAdvantage

10-15-2002, 03:37 PM

I just love one theory I heard....that it's some young men who are acting out their sick "Video Game"-induced fantasies.....

I'll eat my hat if that theory proves to be true....

==PA

Tom

10-15-2002, 06:17 PM

I think if it were terroists - Al Qaida style, there would be more, in many loations.
This is playing out just like a lot of serial killer stories, except for the frequency.
It just sounds like something a white male would do, not that I mean it to be racist, but the way he is playing with the police and interacting with the news reports, I think it is nut with a need to prove himself better than the rest of us. Minority-type killers and the like seem to operate out of vengences, or hatred - this guy is trying to elevate himself to the top of the food chain, so to speak.
I thiink the victims are of no real concern to him - the reaction is what he is thriving on. I would serioiusly suggest that the multiple news hound covering live keep an eye open.....it wouild be a great coup if he were to knock of some one live on the air!
His penchant to keep killing might suggest that he is moving to a new level of need....this is bad. He might want to go out in blaze of glory. The real Zodiak killer from the 60's and 70's kept escalating and eventually threatened to shoot out the tires of a school bus and "pick off the kiddies" as they exited the vehicle.
This week will be a key period. If he steps up his action, watch out. So far, no shootings on Tues, Sat, Sun. If he shoots today, I think he will strike several more time this week. If he misses Wed, he may be gone...for now. The Monday night shooting suggsests we might be in for a long run. It looks like he is trying to prove his skills are even more that we have seen to date. He might be sending a message to us all that we are not safe anywhere, that he is in control of us all.
Very disturbing.

Dave Mark

10-15-2002, 06:57 PM

I definitely beleave the authorities have much stronger clues to this killer than they certainly let on.
You would think if the vehicle that is described as having a burned out bulb, back fender dent, a latter on top etc, someone will spot this soon, and hopefully before anymore shootings.
I think if there are more than one involved with these senseless killings, it will be easier to break the case, for one may feel pressured to the other, hence the break needed to catch this dirt ball.
I heard the NY PI talk (interview) that this sounds like a spaced out "Video Game" creep.
He is entitled to his opinions.
I do not know about that theory, but I do not see this as any foreign terror attack or connection to.
Obviously, you can not rule any theory out!

According to local (Phila) news, they mentioned the killer(s) may get on I95 heading N. to Delaware.
Catch this piece of garbage, Soon!

sq764

10-15-2002, 11:22 PM

Great, living in Delaware myself, that is encouraging to hear :-)

And my wife and I live right off of 95..

I think it may be a terrorist showing how close he can get to the white house without getting caught.. Showing that they can kill anyone at any time..

so.cal.fan

10-16-2002, 12:51 AM

I am a regular viewer of Jerry Nachman (MSNBC).
He doesn't think that the "white van" theory is a good one.
Reason: you can't stand on a corner for 1 minuet without seeing at least 3 or more of this type vehicle go by.
Nachman thinks it may be possible, these snipers are waiting for a white van to approach, then do the shooting.......thus.....tricking everyone into thinking this is what they are looking for.....not to mention wasting time of the law enforcement groups.
I think this could be a possiblility.
It probably is domestic terrorists, but then again.....we NEVER found out who did the Anthrax mailings.........hey, it could be the same group or person?

MarylandPaul@HSH

10-16-2002, 08:33 AM

Originally posted by hurrikane
I'll tell you one thing. I'm living right in the middle of all this. I don't care what they call him. Just catch the M*****F**KER!!

Amen brother, amen. I work in Montgomery Co. Let's just say I won't be frequenting any businesses within 1/4 mile of an interstate ramp until this POS is found.

MP

sq764

10-17-2002, 06:39 PM

I was watching a call-in show on CN8 (Philly) and one caller had an interesting perspective on this.. He said that he shootings are all done because he is positive its a terorrist. And his theory was that the terrorist has shot 11 people, killing 9 of them.. (9-11)

I thought it was a simple case of trying to rationalize this and pretty well off the mark, but interesting nonetheless..

Tom

10-17-2002, 10:37 PM

Front page of the NY Post today..scary.
A map of the area, with each shooting plotted.
Right in the center of it all...... The White House!
PA, maybe you are right?

hurrikane

10-17-2002, 11:20 PM

MP,
2 quiet days....makes you nervous...eh?

Wonder what the theory will be when he kills anouther. 10-12. Oh yeah..that's the day my p4 got taken down. :(

Show Me the Wire

10-20-2002, 09:20 PM

Random thoughts on the serial sniper:

Experts:

Any expert that unequivocally excludes any theory, i.e. terrorists, is not an expert. It is a person with an opinion that believes his opinion is correct, because he is more intelligent than everyone else. A true expert deals with probabilities and gives you reasons why a theory may or may not be feasible. Since there is a possibility of terrorism, terrorism as a motive cannot be totally excluded.

Police investigation:

If the killer is a psychopath it does not seem to fit the usual profile of someone delusional enough believing to be God. Since he is God he is invincible and all knowing and will bring visit his wrath without fear of being caught. God warns of his wrath and carries it out for all to see. God does not hide behind shrubs to unleash his fury.

And what is the common denominator in all the killings. Even psychotics have some common fact, which triggers the episode. Have the police explored the possibility all the shootings may be linked to gas stations. The latest victim stopped for gas prior to the shooting. I believe there is a distinct possibility the psychotic killer may be selecting victims through observation of gas stations. I wager the police have not inquired whether or not if all the victims visited a gas station preceding the attack.

Additionally, since terrorism cannot be ruled out and since so many law enforcement jurisdictions are involved it is time for the FBI to take control of the investigation. The FBI has the capability to deal with psychotics, as well as terrorists. The only problem is the FBI would like local law enforcement to solve the crime to minimize public panic. But local law enforcement officials do not have enough training or expertise to deal with this type of crime.

It is time for the FBI to refocus its energies to protect U.S. citizens from multi-jurisdictional violent crimes and acts of terrorism. The Clinton leftovers must understand the Manchurian president; Mr. Clinton is no longer in charge and his mandate to use the Justice Department, as Clinton’s sword and shield against his political rivals is not the FBI’s primary reason for existence.

We the citizens should hold our national politicians accountable for our nation’s protection from any possible foreign aggressor and we should not settle for assurances from arrogant politicians and self- proclaimed experts that terrorism is not a possibility for these killings.

I personally am not excluding any motive for these acts of violence.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

The more you experience the less you know.

Tom

10-20-2002, 09:36 PM

I think we are dealing with something like the Son of Sam, or
worse. Some kind of sick mind that we can't comprehend. It is erie that he killed so many in the same general area, then moved south to a a new area. The Zodial did this when he went to Lake Barrie (sp?) out in the wilderness. then back to the city.
I really think there is more communications being left behind that we are hearing about.
It is really sickening to watch the endless parade of no information being put out by Cnn et all - no one knows a thing but that doesn't stop them from broadcasting on and on ad naseum. And theat anchor from court tv replacing Larry King tonight....what a dipstick! I think Anderson might like to shoot her!

Show Me the Wire

10-20-2002, 09:57 PM

Tom:

I am not eliminating any specific motive relating to these acts of violence. However, I believe the FBI should assume responsibility for the investigation. The local police agencies do not have the expertise or training to be in charge of this investigation.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

The more we experience the less we know.

so.cal.fan

10-20-2002, 11:37 PM

I agree with SMTW. We just DON'T KNOW.
I had to go out last night, away from the news, because my brother is currently in the Ashland area visiting his girlfriend.
He would go dine at a place like the Ponderosa, so when I heard the first sketchy details, I was concerned.
Even though there is a one in a million chance.............you can't tell that to the poor chap who is in the hospital fighting for his survival. I pray he recovers. It chills me to think he could have been my brother........
:eek:

andicap

10-21-2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by Tom
I think we are dealing with something like the Son of Sam, or
worse. Some kind of sick mind that we can't comprehend. It is erie that he killed so many in the same general area, then moved south to a a new area. The Zodial did this when he went to Lake Barrie (sp?) out in the wilderness. then back to the city.
I really think there is more communications being left behind that we are hearing about.
It is really sickening to watch the endless parade of no information being put out by Cnn et all - no one knows a thing but that doesn't stop them from broadcasting on and on ad naseum. And theat anchor from court tv replacing Larry King tonight....what a dipstick! I think Anderson might like to shoot her!

Not that I disagree with you Tom, but ratings are way, way up, since the sniper shootings started. So you won't see the cable news nets cutting back anytime soon.

Also, not to excuse them, but you have to remember, most people don't watch for hours at a time, but dip in and out for 30 minutes or so, so they are not watching hours of the same stuff.

If you're a cable news net and people are interested in the sniper, you NEVER KNOW when someone is going to tune in. So you want to make sure they see some sniper coverage. You don't want someone tuning in at 3:30 for 20 minutes and not seeing any sniper stuff.
I agree, tho, that it is a tad overdone -- as usual on cable news nets. But that is when they get their biggest ratings, when there is a big story people want to watch.

If there wasn't public interest in this stuff their ratings would be so high.

sq764

10-21-2002, 10:01 AM

I happen to wholeheartedly agree about the FBI getting involved. Not sure about everyone else, but this police chief Moose is a moron. If you ever listen to this guy talk, you can tell right away he is way over his head right now.

This is not writing jaywalking tickets, its serious..

andicap

10-21-2002, 11:50 AM

It's normal for people to start screaming for blood when the cops are powerless, but I know a lot of highly intelligent people who just aren't very articulate.
He may or may not be doing a good job, but don't necessarily base it on how he talks or sounds. He's a cop, not an English teacher.

hurrikane

10-21-2002, 12:20 PM

Uh...hello. The FBI and ATF are the main investigative units in all of this. What you see on your little boob tube is appearance. That is all. As for the local cops. Everywhere you drive there are tandem patrol cars parked all along the roads ready to shut everything down at a moments notice. They are working around the clock. These guys are doing everything possible to bring this to an end. The public has a tiny bit of the puzzle but every friggin expert in the world is ready to get in front of a camera and get their 15 min of fame.
If you want to sit a thousand miles away and spew ideas you have that right. I'm here and I'm telling you these guys are on the stick. There are hundreds of investigators on the scene and an unprecedented involvment by the Pentagon. If you think you have come up with an idea one of these guys haven't...think again.

sq764

10-21-2002, 12:24 PM

First off, I am 150 miles away, not a thousand, so it hits home a little more..

And yes, I have one idea.. When a shooting happens, I know its an obvious step to shut down the highway ASAP.. BUT, let's realize that he is not using highways, he's using back roads. The need to be surrounding the backroads and looking for him hiding, rather than the most obvious routes..

BTW, I hear they just arrested 2 people this morning.. Interesting..

Dave Schwartz

10-21-2002, 01:26 PM

SQ,

I would guess that Moose and his people ARE over their heads here. There aren't too many police forces in this country that wouldn't be and certainly none the size of his.

Like you, I welcome the FBI on this. We need all the resources we can get.

The bottom line here is that our world has gone mad!

Regards,
Dave Schwartz

hurrikane

10-21-2002, 02:13 PM

yeah....2 arrested but thier not saying they're the guys. Hopefully.
SQ...I wasn't saying it didn't effect people because they are not close to the area(although 150 mi IS close). I was mostly refering to all the talking head on TV that have every friggin theory in the world as to what and who this guy is.

On anouther note..the French Gov has notified the US that there is a deserter in NA that is a marksman and may be connected.

Show Me the Wire

10-21-2002, 02:45 PM

Andicap:

I am not screaming for blood. I am stating my position about what I believe makes this country vulnerable to foreign aggressors. It is complacency and willingness to believe bad intention people exist.

Local law enforcement is not trained, staffed, or experienced enough to be the lead agencies to investigate this type of multi-jurisdictional violence. I am not saying Police chief Moose is illiterate or a bungling fool. I am saying generally any local law enforcement agency is not the proper agency to lead this type of investigation.

The FBI should have assumed control over this investigation almost immediately. Yes, I know the FBI has a large presence in the area, but there are different protocols involved when a local law enforcement agency is the lead unit. Additionally, as of last night the FBI still has not taken over the investigation. The idea of turning over the investigation to the FBI has been discussed, but not agreed upon as far as I know.

What irks me, is certain politicians and others lie to themselves and their constituents by refusing to acknowledge terrorism as a possible motive. Terrorism may not be the motive, but I would have more confidence if the authorities would investigate terrorism as a motive, instead of unequivocally stating the attacks are the work of a socio-path.

And please do not tell me the authorities are protecting the general public from itself, by not warning the general public terrorism may be involved. If that is true, it is despicable behavior. The authorities have no right to mislead their constituents. Their constituents have the right to be informed so they may request their representatives to take the appropriate actions.

This denial causes delays and may have cost a few innocent people their lives. Knowing this Country is under attack from terrorists, the FBI should have taken over the investigation immediately after the second shooting. At this point in time, I do not know if terrorism is a motive, however, I would feel more secure if certain global village type politicians elevated our national security to a priority and become enlightened enough to understand it is a mistake to believe others will act in the same manner as you will act.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Real is what is perceived.

hurrikane

10-21-2002, 04:06 PM

2 guys arrested are not related to the sniper attacks.
If they had evidence of the attacks being a terrorist I believe they would say so. They put out warning at the drop of a hat these days and with the elections coming up it would only fall into the republicans hands.
I'm sure they have enough evidence(none of us has seen)that if they eliminate terrorist(I assume you are refering to Al-Queda and not Timothy McVae..also a terrorist)if is for a good reason.

Now, the Virigina Millitia has offered to post armed men at parking lots. Problem is they have stated emphatically that thier intention is not to arrest the sniper. Well, now that's a thought.

andicap

10-21-2002, 04:11 PM

By all means, lets get armed vigilantes involved with this. Shall we go back to the Wild West? I have no problem with unarmed volunteers like the Guardian Angels helping out, but God save us once gun-toting militias start taking the law into their own hands.

Show Me the Wire

10-21-2002, 05:24 PM

andicap:

Correct me if I am wrong. I am not from Virginia, but I am under the belief the Virginia Militia would be their State National Guard.

The militia i.e Virginia National Guard, is formed for the purpose of protecting the State. They are part of the military and are not armed vigilantes.The Governor of the state has the ability to call up the guard for the defense and safety of the public.

The guard or state militia as part of the military is constitutionally prohibited from using police powers to arrest domestically.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality.

Tom

10-21-2002, 06:37 PM

...is that this guy is calling the shots (no pun).
He strikes when and where He wants to strike. How do we cover back roads when we don't even know where he will show up.
He is interacting with the press and he communicating with the police. This guy is playing a game and we don't yet know the rules. He is going to take this to new levels. Our only hope is to get lucky or hope he goofs up. The more he talks to the police, the better the chances of getting a glue. I don' t rule out terrorists, but it seems to be so much like run of the mill serial killer stories over the years. If it were a terror plot, I think it would be happening in more places to get maximum impact.
And they would be claiming responsibility.

sq764

10-21-2002, 11:30 PM

Regardless of what happens, whether they catch him or if they kill him or if he disappears, one thing is apprent.. He showed that just about anyone can infiltrate our country and strike fear into the community.. That is exactly what 9/11 did and its what this person is proving now..

Not only is he proving this, but he's proving that he can do it in the backyard of the president.. Scary..

hurrikane

10-22-2002, 11:20 AM

No, I don't believe the man was refering to the National Guard but a militant group here in VA.

National Guard sounds good to me though.

apparently this guy wants money and other demands or the killing increases.

Tom

10-22-2002, 09:09 PM

Now he's threatening school kids everywhere.
This guy is operating at a fast pace and that is bad. They better call in somebody cause this guy is not stopping. Today, he shoots a guy on a bus?
Time to declare mashal law in the area?
Even the Son of Sam is condeming him. Maybe if he is working with a partner, as some suggest, we should offer, say amnesty and $10 million tax fee to drive a wedge between them? Then renege.
Don't know, but people down there really have reason to hide indoors. This seems like it falls under homeland security and the Feds better take some drastic actions.
Today's victim, 35 year old guy making a living to support two children.

andicap

10-22-2002, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by Show Me the Wire
andicap:

Correct me if I am wrong. I am not from Virginia, but I am under the belief the Virginia Militia would be their State National Guard.

The militia i.e Virginia National Guard, is formed for the purpose of protecting the State. They are part of the military and are not armed vigilantes.The Governor of the state has the ability to call up the guard for the defense and safety of the public.

The guard or state militia as part of the military is constitutionally prohibited from using police powers to arrest domestically.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Perception is reality.

Oh, the National Guard. Well, that's different. I thought you were talking about some vigilante anti-government group. Yes, of course, that makes sense.
I'm a liberal, but even Lincoln had to call martial law during the civil war. Believe me, it's getting to the point where they might have to bring in the whole damn army to catch this guy, Posse Comitatus Act be damned.

PaceAdvantage

10-22-2002, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by andicap
they might have to bring in the whole damn army to catch this guy, Posse Comitatus Act be damned.

Yeah, that's a great idea. Play hard, fast and loose with all sorts of well established laws, traditions, and constitutionality just to catch one or two nutballs.

I love the way people are so willing to shed every last bit of liberty just to obtain that ever-elusive false sense of security.

I'm sure US Armed Forces would hinder as much as help the thousands of law enforcement officers and FBI agents who are already doing the best they can to catch these lunatics.

However, I betcha we could eliminate all future sniper attacks if we all surrender our guns, plant micro-chips in our foreheads, carry National ID cards, and park a National Guard sentry at every street corner in America....or would that be Amerika??? ;)

==PA

JMHO

Show Me the Wire

10-23-2002, 12:25 AM

PA:

Using the national gaurd is not giving up freedoms and liberties. I am not advocating any agenda to reduce civil liberties. The national gaurd would patrol wooded areas near specific target areas, such as schools, commercial shopping centers and gas stations to eliminate targets.

Using federal resources in this situation is the correct application. The killing spree is multi-jurisdictional and the harm inflicted justifies extra manpower to secure the attacked area.

I am not advocating road blocks and check points, which the local law enforcement agencies are doing currently and is generally an exercise in futility. What I propose is the FBI should assume control over the investigation, use the national guard to patrol wooded areas near proven high profile target areas, and inform the public about specific threats.

And how can anyone get in the way of people who can't get out of their own way?

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

The more I experience the less I know.

BillW

10-23-2002, 12:49 AM

Guys,

While I would love to see this idiot caught as much as the next person, some effort should be made toward calming the people of this area down. The effort to catch this guy is pretty concentrated now... calling out the national guard/army whatever is getting to the threshold of panic and playing right into this guys hand (i.e. this idiot is succeeding in getting a lot of mileage out of his terrorizing). Both the conventional(?) murder rate (~2x) and traffic fatality rate (~2x) in this area is higher than the death rate caused by this jerk. Canceling school activities etc. has the effect of protecting kids from traffic acidents more so than the sniper.

Bill

PaceAdvantage

10-23-2002, 01:10 AM

SMTW,

I have no problem with the FBI assuming control (aren't they already heavily involved??)

I was just addressing Andy's half-joking (I think) comment of bringing in the whole Army to hunt this guy down...

==PA

Show Me the Wire

10-23-2002, 07:36 AM

BillW:

I agree more children are killed in traffic accidents. I also agree the sniper killings are miniscule to the national murder rate. However, I do not understand why using the National Guard is on the threshold of panic?

I certainly believe the sniper killings are intentional and are being carried out by a terrorist. I define terrorism as acts of violence designed to target civilian population to cause fear in and hold the Civilian population hostage.

Terrorism is extra-ordinary measures taken by someone to highlight an agenda. Therefore a response to terrorism must be extra-ordinary. Terrorists must be shown they will not be tolerated and that all available resources will be used to destroy terrorists. The National Guard should be utilized to help limit the sniper’s target option.

Proactive planning and measures are signs of calmness, while knee-jerk reactions are signs of panic. Roadblocks, closing schools, canceling activities are knee-jerk responses to the threat. Limiting target areas is proactive.

My belief we are on the verge of panic when I hear suggestions of finger printing every fire arm sold, banning the sale of fire arms, national identity cards, taking DNA samples from people that are charged with a crime (not convicted), making people submit to DNA testing just because the person is male and lives in proximity to an area where a crime was committed, etc. These reactions are all attempts to control the populace through the use of panic and in the name of safety.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Try to unlearn one thing a day.

GR1@HTR

10-23-2002, 11:55 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A2317-2002Oct22.html

JustMissed

10-23-2002, 03:22 PM

The D.C. area police and FBI have such dumbass people working for them no wonder the criminals don't ever get caught. Can you believe the task force people would not let the sniper's call get through and he was able to kill five more people. I think an FBI trainee even hung up on the bastard. Unbelieveable.

Reminds me of poor old Shandra Levy who laid dead in a D.C. park for a year. The park animals even picked her bones clean and I believe the cops searched that park more than once. Every time they show Chief Moose on TV I think he's not bright enough to catch a cold, much less a sniper. Chief Moose is probably one of those D.C. affirmitive action appointees and they can't get rid of him. They are probably going to have to bring Mark Furman or that private dick from N.Y. city in, behind the scene of course, in order to solve the case.

Next time they show a news conference on TV look around for any FBI guys. You want see em. They are so embrassed by Moose they all hide in the bathroom when the camera lights come on.

:confused:

Tom

10-23-2002, 11:00 PM

10:55pm Wednesday - Law enforcement is looking for two people in connection with the sniper case and the house being searched in WA state - one is named.....Mohammed! Not suspects, but people of interest. Wasn't there an Al Qeda training camp or something like that in WA or Oregan?
PA might be right after all.
The whole case is popping tonight. Coast to coast warrants being executed tonight this is not a lone serial killer like I suspected.
I really hope this is not terrorists...the implications are just unimaginable.

sq764

10-23-2002, 11:15 PM

And after 3 weeks, what do we have to show for the 10 dead and 3 wounded?? A freaking tree stump!!

Good job guys!

freeneasy

10-23-2002, 11:33 PM

One possibility of catching this man is to think like him. this man is a sniper, if not a military sniper then he is a damn good self taught sniper. the snipers association says this man is not a true sniper giving reasons as to the number of body hits as opposed to head shots not made. i disagree. makeing sure every target shot at receives its hit is what must take presidence over the kill rate. this man does not care whaether his/the victims live or die. it does'nt matter, he knows some will and some wont. its important to him that he creates what he is doing, and continues on with its effect.
you have to have a plan. he has planned months in advance, everthing he has done up to this date. he has anticipated police moves, and blocks. he has studied maps and roads and calculated distance and timing. he has driven and explored all possible routes. he has planned and thought out each hit site well in advance. he has exercised mock war games/dry runs for each possible hit site and which ones will offer the successful utilizing of evastionary tactics. this man can think. maybe the fbi have to think like him in order to secure his capture.

Show Me the Wire

10-24-2002, 12:34 AM

If he based his attacks on the military model. would be logical to use military tatics to eliminate the enemy? Let me think, maybe use of the military, read as National Guard, patroling wooded areas would be proactive and a better way to stop the killing.

Maybe the authorities might have come up with such an idea if they weren't so certain the killer was a psychopath.

Regards,
Show Me the Wire

Try to unlearn something every day.

so.cal.fan

10-24-2002, 10:39 AM

It looks like they got them!
The odd thing is that a guy in a "white van" was the one who spotted their chevy caprice in the rest stop!
I would not be surprised if the whole whiite van thing was a
"wild goose chase", just as Jerry Nachman had suspected a week ago.
I hope they have the right people, I pray they have the right people.

GR1@HTR

10-24-2002, 10:54 AM

$10 million to a credit card that was stolen? Maybe he wasn't as smart as first thought...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,66470,00.html

andicap

10-24-2002, 01:58 PM

People I know in the media say Chief Moore is highly respected and was thought to have done a very good job on the shootings. Of course, the FBI was calling the shots, my sources confirmed.

All of this shows the problems with instant news. Sq responded impulsively to the news about the tree stump when it turned out to be huge lead. that was the sniper's house!

It's natural for everyone to get emotional about such a hot and tragic story. I worry that cable news just feeds all the rumors and misinformation.

Kappa

10-24-2002, 05:52 PM

It looks like they've caught those sick b*stards today, sleeping in a car on a major highway.

smf

10-24-2002, 08:58 PM

Originally posted by andicap
People I know in the media say Chief Moore is highly respected and was thought to have done a very good job on the shootings. Of course, the FBI was calling the shots, my sources confirmed.

All of this shows the problems with instant news. Sq responded impulsively to the news about the tree stump when it turned out to be huge lead. that was the sniper's house!

It's natural for everyone to get emotional about such a hot and tragic story. I worry that cable news just feeds all the rumors and misinformation.

Dear Mr Mediaguy, (andicap)

His name is MOOSE, not Moore.

sheesh

sq764

10-24-2002, 10:26 PM

Moose, mice, mouse, whatever... I think he proved he is a friggin idiot..

I am sorry, but I am very happy I do not live in Maryland with Chief Moose as my protector.. Sheesh..

JustRalph

10-25-2002, 02:38 AM

Chief Moose was recruited to the Washington area to help rebuild the morale of the officers in the department. He is known as a very loyal leader (loyal to the street cops) who is able to relate to the street cops as well as the politicians. He may not be the best public speaker, but he is supposedly loved by many of the men who serve under him. He came up through the ranks. He first came to be noticed after the Tonya Harding fiasco in Oregon. He was the Chief in charge of whatever Dept. handled that mess. As a former Police Officer I can tell you there aren't many old School Chiefs left. He is respected for being able to be both a new era type and not lose the respect of his men. Delicate balance, but maybe a P.R. professional assigned to the Department would help his public persona.

so.cal.fan

10-25-2002, 11:13 AM

I think Moose and the task force did as well as could be expected under the circumstances.
Hey, the two "men" who did it.......ARE IN JAIL.....GOING TO BE CHARGED........GOING TO BE CONVICTED.......GOING TO, HOPEFULLY, BE EXECUTED.
I heard on the news last night, that the rest stop wherre they caught these creeps was right across the street from an Exxon gas station! They probably would have killed another person later that morning, if that guy from Kentucky wouldn't have spotted the car. I'm sure he saved at LEAST one life!
He even blocked their car with his truck. I sure hope that man gets some reward money.