Hey Jerry Bailey.....

[PaceAdvantage]

Why not just come out and really say what you think about Wolfson and Miesque's Approval:

Quote by JB on ESPN
"For some magical reason he's just run out of his mind this year....."

Heck, even I had him as an overlay as my 11-1 third choice...he wasn't that big a shocker.....

[JimG]

Yeah I caught that too PA. I was surprised, but the average viewer will problably not know what he was really saying. LOL

[ghostyapper]

He even joked that it may be the campbells soup the horse was getting now.

[betovernetcapper]

I noticed the comment too, but then thought maybe I was just reading into it.

[Zaf]

I don't follow Calder too closely, does Wolfson have a bad reputation :confused: ?

Z

[cj]

I don't follow Calder too closely, does Wolfson have a bad reputation :confused: ?

Z

Yes, and well earned with a few drug positives.

[kenwoodallpromos]

11/04/06 $2M NetJets Breeders' Cup Mile Churchill Downs 1 1
10/07/06 $600K Shadwell Turf Mile S. Keeneland 1 4
09/09/06 $150K Red Bank S. Monmouth Park 1
07/01/06 $250K Firecracker Breeders' Cup H. Churchill Downs 2 1
04/14/06 $250K Maker's Mark Mile S. Keeneland 1
03/11/06 $100K Canadian Turf H. Gulfstream Park 2
01/28/06 $500K Sunshine Millions Cloverleaf Farms Turf S. Gulfstream Park 1
12/26/05 $40K Our Dear Peggy S. Calder Race Course 4
11/03/05 $44K Claiming Aqueduct 6
09/28/05 $51K Claiming Belmont Park 6
08/27/05 $52K Allowance Optional Claiming Saratoga 3
__________________________What I see is a horse that does not like NY or NJ the last part of the year. Looks like a miler to me!

[JustRalph]

Yes, and well earned with a few drug positives.

it ain't over yet. They are working on the post race blood as we speak

[kenwoodallpromos]

it ain't over yet. They are working on the post race blood as we speak
__
Well that is fair anyway if you are willing to go by the tests- many are too stubborn for that!LOL!

[CryingForTheHorses]

Geeze guys,Ill bet if Pletcher won you would be on his bandwagon..You all have this guy guilty even before the test results are in..I hope for his sake they are clean..Back to Baily..He should lose his job over them comments that should have been kept to himself...Who the hell does he think he is..To insult a person like he did on TV.

[PaceAdvantage]

Geeze guys,Ill bet if Pletcher won you would be on his bandwagon..You all have this guy guilty even before the test results are in..I hope for his sake they are clean..Back to Baily..He should lose his job over them comments that should have been kept to himself...Who the hell does he think he is..To insult a person like he did on TV.

Relax...there aren't too many Pletcher lovers on this board. Of course, I'd probably defend him, but I defend everyone....lol

Bailey shouldn't lose his job over the comments.....that's a silly thing to say....

He didn't accuse him of anything outright...he just said "For some magical reason he's just run out of his mind this year" :lol:

[Valuist]

I don't follow Calder too closely, does Wolfson have a bad reputation :confused: ?

Z

I know Arlington had an issue with him re: how long a certain drug could be in a horse's system. They wouldn't let Miesque's Approval run in the Million. Wolfson said he'd never run a horse ever again there. Somehow, I think the Million, Secretariat and Beverly D will go on just fine.

[DJofSD]

Bailey shouldn't lose his job over the comments.....that's a silly thing to say....


Let's ask Frank Lyons! Hey, Frank, what do you think?

[Tote Master]

McSchell_Racing
Geeze guys,Ill bet if Pletcher won you would be on his bandwagon..You all have this guy guilty even before the test results are in..I hope for his sake they are clean..Back to Baily..He should lose his job over them comments that should have been kept to himself...Who the hell does he think he is..To insult a person like he did on TV. I agree with you 100%! Bailey knows the game better then most, and now that he's out of it he decides to make some stupid self-serving comments (like many in the media). Why didn't he make similiar comments while he was riding? Very simple. He wanted to keep riding top horses!
Now that he's part of the media he suddenly becomes chief, cook, and bottle washer (judge, jury, and hangman). Just my opinion.

By the way, we had a great BC day, especially nailing the Super in the 10th. Invasor was the best overlay of the day. Any so-called handicapper that thought a 3 year old was going to beat that horse should go back and rethink their methodology. For sure!

Can you imagine if Invasor actually had a tuneup for this race?! It wouldn't have been just a length believe me. And why they're calling this an upset is beyond me!

Again, just media hype.

[PaceAdvantage]

By the way, we had a great BC day, especially nailing the Super in the 10th. Invasor was the best overlay of the day. Any so-called handicapper that thought a 3 year old was going to beat that horse should go back and rethink their methodology. For sure!

Can you imagine if Invasor actually had a tuneup for this race?! It wouldn't have been just a length believe me. And why they're calling this an upset is beyond me!

Again, just media hype.

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Note to self: upload a "puke" emoticon to message board. It would fit perfectly here.
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Talk about self-serving comments! Don't you ever get tired of all these "non-promotional" posts?

There are ample places to post selections on this board, even in real-time, but I didn't see one from you before the races were run!

Watching a vendor redboard is one of the most painful experiences there can be in all of internet-horseyland.....

I'm not saying I don't believe you....I'm saying that if you brag about it after the fact, without posting before the fact, nobody is going to give two shits.

[Tote Master]

PA
Talk about self-serving comments! Don't you ever get tired of all these "non-promotional" posts?

There are ample places to post selections on this board, even in real-time, but I didn't see one from you before the races were run!

Watching a vendor redboard is one of the most painful experiences there can be in all of internet-horseyland.....

I'm not saying I don't believe you....I'm saying that if you brag about it after the fact, without posting before the fact, nobody is going to give two shits. This is not the only "horseyland" racing forum on the net. Sorry if I didn't post my Preliminary selections here on PA, but they are far cry from being "red boarded". If you like to see my actual selections (before the races started) you can visit the following link: http://www.horseswild.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15245

You'll notice that they were posted (2) days before the BC!

The tote alanysis only provided additional confirmation that M/L favorite BERNARDINI was NOT going to win that race. The "bridge jumpers" were saved because all they could do (with all their confidence) was bet it to show (or maybe key it in the exotics) and hopefully make a buck (which they did, if bet properly).

It was certailnly a fun (and profitable) day for me personally and by the way some people did give (2) shits. In fact, they made some money! That for me (believe it or not) is the bottom line. I have no problem sharing the wealth, but here on PA where traditional handicapping is the norm and the grandstanded approach, my comments are of little consequence. And that's just fine with me.

Win or loose, I hope everyone had a great day!

[PaceAdvantage]

This is not the only "horseyland" racing forum on the net. Sorry if I didn't post my Preliminary selections here on PA, but they are far cry from being "red boarded". If you like to see my actual selections (before the races started) you can visit the following link: http://www.horseswild.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15245

Oh man, you got me good there buddy. Excellent setup!

Now genius, how are we(I) supposed to know you posted your selections pre-race if you don't tell us(me)? There are lots of horse boards out there, and most of us don't have the time to visit each one every single day, reading every single post.

It's a redboard if we don't know they exist at the time, right Master?

Don't bother replying, because that would only further serve to take this thread off topic.

[Tote Master]

PA
Oh man, you got me good there buddy. Excellent setup!

Now genius, how are we(I) supposed to know you posted your selections pre-race if you don't tell us(me)? There are lots of horse boards out there, and most of us don't have the time to visit each one every single day, reading every single post.

It's a redboard if we don't know they exist at the time, right Master?

Don't bother replying, because that would only further serve to take this thread off topic. Believe it or not, there was no “set-up” intended. YOU opened the door my friend! (Paranoia will Destroy ya) Yes, as I mentioned “horseyland” on the net is a big place, but I was NOT about to be accused of “red-boarding” by you or anyone else. In fact, I have seen numerous occasions on the PA forum (whether you wish to acknowledge them or not) where a poster would provide unsubstantiated information about their (so-called) selections (after the fact) and yes, actually be congratulated about them! As I mentioned, why post my pre-race selections here, when they’re of little consequence to the traditional handicapping elite?

Why not reply? In case you didn’t notice, I WASN’T the one who took this thread off topic! I was simply trying to voice my support for McSchell_Racing’s comments. Enough said.

[kenwoodallpromos]

From Nov 1 to Nov 5, 5 winners at CD paid under $6.80 and the majority paid well over $10; MA was definitely not the highest ($113.00 was).
So my only question is, Who the heck bet Bernardini at 11-10 and the other underlay favs with all the other talent in the races? You can blame the track, or dozens of other "magical, super, juicer trainers", or you can look at track result trends for a better picture. Sometimes it does not matter why, only what. Having a 1-track mind does not mean your 1 explaination is in play or the only one in play.

[twindouble]

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Note to self: upload a "puke" emoticon to message board. It would fit perfectly here.
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Talk about self-serving comments! Don't you ever get tired of all these "non-promotional" posts?

There are ample places to post selections on this board, even in real-time, but I didn't see one from you before the races were run!

Watching a vendor redboard is one of the most painful experiences there can be in all of internet-horseyland.....

I'm not saying I don't believe you....I'm saying that if you brag about it after the fact, without posting before the fact, nobody is going to give two shits.

It took my wife all of two minutes to come up with Invasor. Plus she only use Bernadini just for second and third in the gimmicks. Surely that qualifies her to advertize and sell here picks over the net. What would you charge PA? :D

[ponyplayerdotca]

With regards to Bailey, say what you suspect or shut up. "Magical reason"? Any one who knows the sport as well as Bailey and the players KNOWS what he's implying. Don't get cute on national TV and think you're being clever without being slanderous.

With regards to all of you who seem to have found Wolfson guilty of doping (assuming no positive results have been published by the time this post went up), are you upset that Miesque's Approval win at 24-1 screwed up your tickets, hence the accusations?

If you think Wolfson is a druggie trainer by nature, and you see one of his recent acquisitions running in a big race, wouldn't you use the horse extensively in your handicapping? Guess not by the many posts here who accuse him of cheating. Hardy, har, har.

Either players are outsmarting the general public for a big score, or the trainers are outsmarting the players. In this case, to anyone who didn't use MA in their wagers, Wolfson outsmarted you.

(p.s. - Same goes for those of you who drank all the KOOL AID on Bernardini. He ran a formidable race, and he's a great 3 YO champion, but he's not the second coming of Secretariat as the media and posters who liked him made him sound. The bottom line is he lost with no apparent excuse. McLaughlin outsmarted you. Invasor is the 2006 Horse of the Year.)

[cj]

(p.s. - Same goes for those of you who drank all the KOOL AID on Bernardini. He ran a formidable race, and he's a great 3 YO champion, but he's not the second coming of Secretariat as the media and posters who liked him made him sound. The bottom line is he lost with no apparent excuse. McLaughlin outsmarted you. Invasor is the 2006 Horse of the Year.)

I thought he was very strong, so much so that I barely touched the race. Still, after doing figures for the race. I think he ran a better race than Invasor. We all know the best horse doesn't win many races, and this was one in my opinion.

By the way, I don't think Secretariat was undefeated, was he? People sometimes talk about him like he never lost. He lost to more than one horse that was not up to the level of an Invasor.

[the little guy]

By the way, we had a great BC day, especially nailing the Super in the 10th. Invasor was the best overlay of the day. Any so-called handicapper that thought a 3 year old was going to beat that horse should go back and rethink their methodology. For sure!

Can you imagine if Invasor actually had a tuneup for this race?! It wouldn't have been just a length believe me. And why they're calling this an upset is beyond me!




I'm trying to figure out which paragraph is more ridiculous. I mean, they both have substantial merits, in such diverse directions, that it is going to be hard to decide. Perhaps you could win a trophy for two categories.....Best " Who Gives a Hoot " Paragraph of the Year and Worst Post Race Hypothesis by a Convicted Redboarder.

Either way....thanks for the entertainment. I only hope Indulto checks in soon with his expected rejoiner.

[njcurveball]

------------------------------------------------------------


I'm not saying I don't believe you....I'm saying that if you brag about it after the fact, without posting before the fact, nobody is going to give two shits.

AMEN!

[ryesteve]

Any so-called handicapper that thought a 3 year old was going to beat that horse should go back and rethink their methodology. For sure!

Yeah, cause it's not like Invasor has ever been beaten by a 3yo before :rolleyes:

geez....

[the_fat_man]

------------------------------------------------------------
Note to self: upload a "puke" emoticon to message board. It would fit perfectly here.
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Talk about self-serving comments! Don't you ever get tired of all these "non-promotional" posts?

There are ample places to post selections on this board, even in real-time, but I didn't see one from you before the races were run!

Watching a vendor redboard is one of the most painful experiences there can be in all of internet-horseyland.....

I'm not saying I don't believe you....I'm saying that if you brag about it after the fact, without posting before the fact, nobody is going to give two shits.

I particulary enjoyed his comment about no 3 year old beating Invasor. :lol::lol:

That's an informed vendor.

[the_fat_man]

I thought he was very strong, so much so that I barely touched the race. Still, after doing figures for the race. I think he ran a better race than Invasor. We all know the best horse doesn't win many races, and this was one in my opinion.

By the way, I don't think Secretariat was undefeated, was he? People sometimes talk about him like he never lost. He lost to more than one horse that was not up to the level of an Invasor.

Nice to see that you've come around AFTER you did the figures for the race.

As for your target: after his multiple (and I do mean MULTIPLE) posts PUSHING Giacomo (yeah, he had a shot)

rather than realizing that he's an idiot

he comes back and tries to get credit for B's loss

that's logical

[classhandicapper]

I think there's some merit to the point of view that Castellano moved a bit early. At a minimum, Bernardini was used a little harder early than Invasor getting himself involved in that pace on the turn instead of little later.

However, there are flips sides to these kinds of things.

Horses with Bernardini's style typically get involved earlier and use themselves harder than horses like Invasor because the latter will typically make a later move.

So who do you want, the horse that will run better "theoretically" or the horse that will win?

I watched the replay a few times. I think Castellano got into him a bit too soon, but I don't think the pace was excessively fast at that point in the race. The front runners were already feeling the effects of the early part of the race. Plus, it wasn't exactly the second coming of Seattle Slew that Bernardini was moving up to challenge.

I think the very fact that Brother Derek hung around fairly well at 10F is saying something about this race. He was used harder early than Bernardini (though granted he was inside on the best part of the track).

Other than that, I think you have to find the middle ground here.

Bernardini obviously ran a very good race. Maybe if the pace was a tad slower or he had moved a tad later he would have won, but he was not in line with the pre-race hype. That's the point.

Personally, I think the reason is obvious. He had a series of easy trip wins in small fields against weak competition (or everyone that was good got a horror trip/broke down). Horses often earn big speed figures and numbers under easy conditions but can't duplicate them when things get tougher against tougher comp (especially the first time they are tested).

Over and above that there's other things to consider.

Invasor is a very nice older horse, but his Beyer figure for the BC is not exactly monsterous. So even if Bernardini took the worst of the trip, it wasn't another "monster" that beat him. The really great horses tend to overcome more adersity than this and still beat horses like Invasor.

The very fact that Premium Tap and "Giacomo" were not terribly beaten is also saying something about the overall quality of the performance of the top two. Neither of them was drawing off big from some very marginal horses.

No matter how you slice, numerically or qualitatively, both Bernardini and Invasor are very good horses, but IMO neither of them ran a "great" race Saturday.

I thought B was a very good horse going into the race (but not as good as the hype) and I still think that.

[the_fat_man]

I think there's some merit to the point of view that Castellano moved a bit early. At a minimum, Bernardini was used a little harder early than Invasor getting himself involved in that pace on the turn instead of little later.

However, there are flips sides to these kinds of things.

Horses with Bernardini's style typically get involved earlier and use themselves harder than horses like Invasor because the latter will typically make a later move.

So who do you want, the horse that will run better "theoretically" or the horse that will win?

I watched the replay a few times. I think Castellano got into him a bit too soon, but I don't think the pace was excessively fast at that point in the race. The front runners were already feeling the effects of the early part of the race. Plus, it wasn't exactly the second coming of Seattle Slew that Bernardini was moving up to challenge.

I think the very fact that Brother Derek hung around fairly well at 10F is saying something about this race. He was used harder early than Bernardini (though granted he was inside on the best part of the track).

Other than that, I think you have to find the middle ground here.

Bernardini obviously ran a very good race. Maybe if the pace was a tad slower or he had moved a tad later he would have won, but he was not in line with the pre-race hype. That's the point.

Personally, I think the reason is obvious. He had a series of easy trip wins in small fields against weak competition (or everyone that was good got a horror trip/broke down). Horses often earn big speed figures and numbers under easy conditions but can't duplicate them when things get tougher against tougher comp (especially the first time they are tested).

Over and above that there's other things to consider.

Invasor is a very nice older horse, but his Beyer figure for the BC is not exactly monsterous. So even if Bernardini took the worst of the trip, it wasn't another "monster" that beat him. The really great horses tend to overcome more adersity than this and still beat horses like Invasor.

The very fact that Premium Tap and "Giacomo" were not terribly beaten is also saying something about the overall quality of the performance of the top two. Neither of them was drawing off big from some very marginal horses.

No matter how you slice, numerically or qualitatively, both Bernardini and Invasor are very good horses, but IMO neither of them ran a "great" race Saturday.

I thought B was a very good horse going into the race (but not as good as the hype) and I still think that.

I can't argue this stuff with you guys. We watch races and end up with different opinions. In most cases, opinions that are influenced by speed or pace numbers.

If you really think that Invasor got a SLIGHTLY better trip than B then go with it.

I think it's enough that at least people on this board are even entertaining the possibility that B didn't exactly have the best of it in the race --- a monumental leap from Saturday.

And the fault can only lie with the mindset of the trainer and jockey. If you go in thinking your horse is invincible, not accounting for the fact that the competition is decidedly better, then you ride the horse like Stewart Elliot on Smarty Jones in the Belmont. You BID too early and too agressively because you think, even on a track with a long stretch, where moves of this sort are rarely successful, that this horse is so much better than the competition that it won't matter what you do with him.

After all, given his hype, HE SHOULD be able to overcome adversity.

Now, that's sound reasoning and gets the turkey beheaded every time.

P.S. the fact that BD 'hung around for so long' could also be attributed to the fact that, under the circumstances of the race, and given the way the track was playing that day, he RAN a HUGE RACE.

[ponyplayerdotca]

posted by FAT MAN to CJ:

"Nice to see that you've come around AFTER you did the figures for the race.

As for your target:

after his multiple (and I do mean MULTIPLE) posts PUSHING Giacomo (yeah, he had a shot)

rather than realizing that he's an idiot

he comes back and tries to get credit for B's loss

that's logical"

====
Fat man,

Assuming the "target" mentioned above in your post is me:

1) I said BERNARDINI wouldn't win - he didn't. I said I wasn't betting any money on him to win - I didn't. I said if he didn't run his race, he could finish off the board. He did run his race, and was a very good 2nd. But his best also wasn't as great as many thought it was.

2) I said GIACOMO had a longshot chance. He was 4th, on 3 1/2 lengths back of your wonderhorse in 2nd, filled out the superfecta, and beat 9 other horses.

3) Although, the obvious upset choice and value play that many had, I did have INVASOR to win for a tidy sum (not bragging or redboarding, just letting you know). I posted several times in a couple of threads that I thought BERNARDINI would be a stupid win bet - he didn't win. I hope you had some win cash on INVASOR too.

4) I'm no genius, but I'm no idiot either. I didn't buy the hype that many, including you, were trying to sell. Am I going to crap on you for being wrong? Hell no. It happens to all of us.

5) I take no credit for Bernardini's loss. He ran great, but got beat. He's a good race horse, but he got beat. That's not the first time that's happened. I'll take 7-1 on a horse I felt had just as much chance as he did in the win pool.

6) Logical? How logical is it to play an untested horse at even money in the toughest, largest field he's ever faced? I didn't use BERNARDINI in my win bets. Sounds more logical than betting the farm on him to win.

7) I want no credit for anything. I'm just a struggling horseplayer that tries to give opinions to others who care enough to consider them. I just don't want random posters to crap all over me for no reason either. We're all here posting to try to help each other, right?

Enjoy writing your almost certainly-to-come nasty reply. It seems your style, but we all have to have a schtick. I can live with that. :cool:

[the_fat_man]

posted by FAT MAN to CJ:

"Nice to see that you've come around AFTER you did the figures for the race.

As for your target:

after his multiple (and I do mean MULTIPLE) posts PUSHING Giacomo (yeah, he had a shot)

rather than realizing that he's an idiot

he comes back and tries to get credit for B's loss

that's logical"

====
Fat man,

Assuming the "target" mentioned above in your post is me:

1) I said BERNARDINI wouldn't win - he didn't. I said I wasn't betting any money on him to win - I didn't. I said if he didn't run his race, he could finish off the board. He did run his race, and was a very good 2nd. But his best also wasn't as great as many thought it was.

2) I said GIACOMO had a longshot chance. He was 4th, on 3 1/2 lengths back of your wonderhorse in 2nd, filled out the superfecta, and beat 9 other horses.

3) Although, the obvious upset choice and value play that many had, I did have INVASOR to win for a tidy sum (not bragging or redboarding, just letting you know). I posted several times in a couple of threads that I thought BERNARDINI would be a stupid win bet - he didn't win. I hope you had some win cash on INVASOR too.

4) I'm no genius, but I'm no idiot either. I didn't buy the hype that many, including you, were trying to sell. Am I going to crap on you for being wrong? Hell no. It happens to all of us.

5) I take no credit for Bernardini's loss. He ran great, but got beat. He's a good race horse, but he got beat. That's not the first time that's happened. I'll take 7-1 on a horse I felt had just as much chance as he did in the win pool.

6) Logical? How logical is it to play an untested horse at even money in the toughest, largest field he's ever faced? I didn't use BERNARDINI in my win bets. Sounds more logical than betting the farm on him to win.

7) I want no credit for anything. I'm just a struggling horseplayer that tries to give opinions to others who care enough to consider them. I just don't want random posters to crap all over me for no reason either. We're all here posting to try to help each other, right?

Enjoy writing your almost certainly-to-come nasty reply. It seems your style, but we all have to have a schtick. I can live with that. :cool:

Yo, dumbass

you'd really be smart if you weren't on record

WITH MULTIPLE POSTS

hawing Giacomo

did you enjoy the exposure, butch?

how you forgotten the content of your posts, ace?


So, you got slapped around a bit

and you look like an idiot (coming back to sell attitude)

and you don't know better or don't have the decency to shut your mouth

and take it like a man

you were wrong, I know it hurts

so, what else is new?

hope that didn't hurt too much, big boy :kiss:

oh wait, here comes Giacomo with a late run

Now PA is gonna have to come in here and be forced to discipline me

even though he probably gets a kick out of you getting bent over.:bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

Why are you guys crapping all over my Jerry Bailey thread?

What was The_Fat_Man's official position on Bernardini pre-race? There's so much I read on this board every day, I've forgotten how much he was in love with that horse.

In any event, those living in glass houses shouldn't throw stones at plodding Kentucky Derby winners....:lol:

[cj]

...Worst Post Race Hypothesis by a Convicted Redboarder.

That is awesome. Hopefully PA can create some year end awards for posters here.

I'd love to see these:

Thread Killer of the Year Award, given to the person that single handedly ends the most threads by posting things so far in left field noone else can generate a single response.

Creativity Award, given to the person that posts the same thing repeatedly in as many threads as it can possibly be squeezed into.

Lifetime Achievement Award, which has to go to Tom.

Magna Award, given to whichever poster can post the most pro-Magna anit CD/NYRA links, or visa versa, without ever having a single one from the other side. (Competition runs deep here)

The Golden Abe, given to whoever is able to post the first 2yo to watch in a given calendar year.

The Antagonizer, given to the person whose sole purpose in life is to make life to on our moderator PA.

The Beyer, given to the poster that criticizes Beyer most often, especially those that somehow are able to integrate and bash his speed figures into every single article he writes, no matter the subject.

These are just a few...maybe PA could get Tom Durkin to host.

[the little guy]

That is awesome. Hopefully PA can create some year end awards for posters here.

I'd love to see these:

Thread Killer of the Year Award, given to the person that single handedly ends the most threads by posting things so far in left field noone else can generate a single response.

Creativity Award, given to the person that posts the same thing repeatedly in as many threads as it can possibly be squeezed into.

Lifetime Achievement Award, which has to go to Tom.

Magna Award, given to whichever poster can post the most pro-Magna anit CD/NYRA links, or visa versa, without ever having a single one from the other side. (Competition runs deep here)

The Golden Abe, given to whoever is able to post the first 2yo to watch in a given calendar year.

The Antagonizer, given to the person whose sole purpose in life is to make life to on our moderator PA.

The Beyer, given to the poster that criticizes Beyer most often, especially those that somehow are able to integrate and bash his speed figures into every single article he writes, no matter the subject.

These are just a few...maybe PA could get Tom Durkin to host.

A fine beginning though I think your first award could simply known as the " KenWood Memorial " award.

[PaceAdvantage]

At least you're making me laugh!

[JustRalph]

How about


The Name Dropper award! For the poster who most often mentions his "friends" who are either racing celebs or writers in the sport etc

[kingfin66]

Wouldn't KenWoodall have to be dead for there to be a memorial award. Oh no, you're not going to use your New York connections to have him whacked are you!? :eek:

[ponyplayerdotca]

Here are the thread links and post numbers in question. I think I found them all but if I missed any, please post them too.

I'm not so sure I was emphatic about GIACOMO, even reassessing the night before in one post (as far as a win wager).

If I posted anything unreasonable, please quote what it was. Said he had a chance to upset is all. I guess that's heresy to Bernardini fans.

===

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31576&page=3&pp=15

posts #35, 36, 37, 42

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32114

post #5

http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31874&page=2&pp=15

post #22

[kenwoodallpromos]

I was going to go for the Bash Beyer Award, but his figures for the BC looked great to me!

[classhandicapper]

And the fault can only lie with the mindset of the trainer and jockey. If you go in thinking your horse is invincible, not accounting for the fact that the competition is decidedly better, then you ride the horse like Stewart Elliot on Smarty Jones in the Belmont. You BID too early and too agressively because you think, even on a track with a long stretch, where moves of this sort are rarely successful, that this horse is so much better than the competition that it won't matter what you do with him.

I know what you are trying to say and agree. It's a matter of degree.

I thought Smarty Jones' Belmont was a terrific performance no matter what the numbers said.

Pace and speed figures are always tough to make for a single 12F race at Belmont (especially when it's windy like it was Belmont Stakes day). Sometimes qualitative comparison is better than numeric comparison.

All you have to do is look at the timing of his move (very early), the quality of the horses he was battling with on the "backstretch", and how "they reacted" to the battle compared to him to see how terrific he was that day. Those horses were earlier in their development, but that was a quality field for June and Smarty was light years better than them. IMHO, he is one horse that may have been as good as the hype (at least almost), but he didn't get to prove it. (Note how many of those went on to be very good as they developed further)

[betovernetcapper]

How about an award for the most condescending? :)

[CryingForTheHorses]

A fine beginning though I think your first award could simply known as the " KenWood Memorial " award.
:lol: :lol: :lol:

[Indulto]

Originally Posted by the little guy
Originally Posted by Tote Master
By the way, we had a great BC day, especially nailing the Super in the 10th. Invasor was the best overlay of the day. Any so-called handicapper that thought a 3 year old was going to beat that horse should go back and rethink their methodology. For sure!

Can you imagine if Invasor actually had a tuneup for this race?! It wouldn't have been just a length believe me. And why they're calling this an upset is beyond me! I'm trying to figure out which paragraph is more ridiculous. I mean, they both have substantial merits, in such diverse directions, that it is going to be hard to decide. Perhaps you could win a trophy for two categories.....Best " Who Gives a Hoot " Paragraph of the Year and Worst Post Race Hypothesis by a Convicted Redboarder.

Either way....thanks for the entertainment. I only hope Indulto checks in soon with his expected rejoiner. tlg,
At one time, you assured us that you had me on IGNORE. Now you want me to post, but don't say why, or what you expect in the way of a "rejoiner." I hope you're able to be more consistent, and reveal your intentions more clearly, at the DRF EXPO.

If not, you can always donate your posts here for use in reading comprehension tests. ;) Originally Posted by JustRalphOriginally Posted by the little guyOriginally Posted by cj
That is awesome. Hopefully PA can create some year end awards for posters here.

I'd love to see these:

Thread Killer of the Year Award, given to the person that single handedly ends the most threads by posting things so far in left field noone else can generate a single response.

Creativity Award, given to the person that posts the same thing repeatedly in as many threads as it can possibly be squeezed into.

… Magna Award, given to whichever poster can post the most pro-Magna anit CD/NYRA links, or visa versa, without ever having a single one from the other side. (Competition runs deep here)

… The Beyer, given to the poster that criticizes Beyer most often, especially those that somehow are able to integrate and bash his speed figures into every single article he writes, no matter the subject. A fine beginning though I think your first award could simply known as the " KenWood Memorial " award.How about


The Name Dropper award! For the poster who most often mentions his "friends" who are either racing celebs or writers in the sport etc :lol:
Best of thread so far!

[Tote Master]

The little guy
I'm trying to figure out which paragraph is more ridiculous. I mean, they both have substantial merits, in such diverse directions, that it is going to be hard to decide. Perhaps you could win a trophy for two categories.....Best " Who Gives a Hoot " Paragraph of the Year and Worst Post Race Hypothesis by a Convicted Redboarder.
Either way....thanks for the entertainment. You're welcome! But while you’re counting paragraphs and trying to figure out the rhetoric (after the fact), I’m counting the money (after the race). While your sarcastic remarks have absolutely no value to me what so ever, they’ve certainly stirred up the locals. I guess you were among those who played Bernadini: With scared money no less, like many other’s that jumped all over the “show wagon”. Yes the 2nd coming of Secretariat got beat (not unusual for a 3yr old in that event). Now here’s something that’s really controversial: The horse that would have blown by them all was unfortunately missing. Yes although still a 3yr old Barbaro would have not only won the TC, but this BC event as well. And that’s a fact!
twindouble
It took my wife all of two minutes to come up with Invasor. Plus she only use Bernadini just for second and third in the gimmicks. Surely that qualifies her to advertize and sell here picks over the net. What would you charge PA? That’s great! Is your wife a handicapper? Well neither am I! Did you listen to your wife? Did your wife post those selections on PA before the race? Its too bad she didn’t have the next 2 also! So now posting selections is considered another form of advertisement? According to PA its “sharing the wealth”, and well it should be. Unfortunately, I didn’t post my “pre-race” selections on this forum, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t posted. And guess what, there wasn’t a single charge involved!

Better Luck next time!

Sorry PA, I couldn't resist. (private joke)

[twindouble]

That’s great! Is your wife a handicapper? Well neither am I! Did you listen to your wife? Did your wife post those selections on PA before the race? Its too bad she didn’t have the next 2 also! So now posting selections is considered another form of advertisement? According to PA its “sharing the wealth”, and well it should be. Unfortunately, I didn’t post my “pre-race” selections on this forum, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t posted. And guess what, there wasn’t a single charge involved!

Better Luck next time!

Sorry PA, I couldn't resist. (private joke)

I posted my picks with a friend on this board, someone that I respect as a handicapper and a gentlemen. His ego is nonexistent when it comes to the horses and I respect that as well. We could probably go to war on our political views but that don't interfere with discussing or handicapping the horses.

I'm not here to pick horses for others, only to add whatever I can to enable them to do it themselves. Members can take it or leave it and I won't lose any sleep over it. When it comes to my wife I'm proud to say she's a good handicapper, weather you believe that or not is no concern of mine. She had a good day and I enjoyed it immensely, isn't like I was blowing my own horn like some do.

T.D.

[the little guy]

You're welcome! But while you’re counting paragraphs and trying to figure out the rhetoric (after the fact), I’m counting the money (after the race). While your sarcastic remarks have absolutely no value to me what so ever, they’ve certainly stirred up the locals. I guess you were among those who played Bernadini: With scared money no less, like many other’s that jumped all over the “show wagon”. Yes the 2nd coming of Secretariat got beat (not unusual for a 3yr old in that event). Now here’s something that’s really controversial: The horse that would have blown by them all was unfortunately missing. Yes although still a 3yr old Barbaro would have not only won the TC, but this BC event as well. And that’s a fact!


Actually I did a TV show where I picked Street Sense ( bet him ), Round Pond ( bet her ), Red Rocks and said Invasor was pretty much Bernardini's equal. Yes, I hit the late Pick-3....thanks for asking.

And...." that's a fact "!

[Murph]

And...." that's a fact "!I would say that this is an "after the fact" for readers of this forum. There are several of these colorful posts floating around here since the BC races ended.

Murph

[classhandicapper]

Actually I did a TV show where I picked Street Sense ( bet him ), Round Pond ( bet her ), Red Rocks and said Invasor was pretty much Bernardini's equal. Yes, I hit the late Pick-3....thanks for asking.

And...." that's a fact "!

I can vouch for Round Pound and Invasor, but I didn't see the whole show.

(in case anyone thinks he's redboarding, he's not)

[CryingForTheHorses]

Talk about "Crapping" on PA's thread..Lets back to JB.. :bang:

[the_fat_man]

Actually I did a TV show where I picked Street Sense ( bet him ), Round Pond ( bet her ), Red Rocks and said Invasor was pretty much Bernardini's equal. Yes, I hit the late Pick-3....thanks for asking.

And...." that's a fact "!

I don't know, man

Taking credit for a winner in a race with 2 BREAKDOWNS (the top 2 choices, no less) and another horse blocked (HUGE) the length of the stretch

is like 'padding' your NAIL list with TRANS-SEXUALS

It looks good until you start investigating :lol::lol:

To each his own

[Tom]

It is better than picking 3-5 shots and losing.....twice! :lol::lol::lol:

[the_fat_man]

It is better than picking 3-5 shots and losing.....twice! :lol::lol::lol:

When was the 2nd time, TOm

P.S.

How's LAVA MAN doing?

Oh, yeah

that's right

you wanted LAVA MAN BEFORE the race

but INVASOR after :D:D

interesting that UPON doing the figures for the race (better late than never)

your GURU concurs that B was best

I'm sorry. I'm just **** around.

I realize the need to get attention is stronger for some than others. Therefore, I BELIEVE IT ALL.


Now, take your time responding

cause when you get nervous

it gets KENWOOD...LIKE embarrassing

[the little guy]

I would say that this is an "after the fact" for readers of this forum. There are several of these colorful posts floating around here since the BC races ended.

Murph

I hardly came on here crowing about my selections. I was merely responding to some nitwit who made typical internet snide " oh yer just another loser whining " comments. And, as these selections were broadcast in many spots, they are easily verifiable. It seems another poster here saw at least some of them.

[the little guy]

I don't know, man

Taking credit for a winner in a race with 2 BREAKDOWNS (the top 2 choices, no less) and another horse blocked (HUGE) the length of the stretch

is like 'padding' your NAIL list with TRANS-SEXUALS

It looks good until you start investigating :lol::lol:

To each his own

You really have a stranglehold on lame hiding behind the computer internet condescension. I am honestly jealous. I feel a mere novice in your presense.

Sorry if I don't apologize if perhaps I got a little lucky in getting a 13-1 shot home who I predicted was in a spot to get a perfect trip. Assuming you bet you know that one often gets unlucky with reasonably good selections so getting lucky occasionally is simply a case of things somewhat evening out. A Pine Island- Round Pond exacta would have been just fine with me and, frankly I am also on record as suggesting the clock would eventually strike twelve for Fleet Indian, so her unfortunate injury did not particularly come as a giant surprise to me. She was the one horse on the entire BC show I singled out as the best favorite to bet against.

[Tom]

Actually,m Skinny I called Ivasor ( he is the best) in the War Room before the race. My GURU??? I make my own calls, thank you. Win or lose, it is my choices. Yup - I liked Lava Man before the race. Then I handicapped the whole race, no head ons :rolleyes: just data - figs, pace, records, etc, and decided at the odds, Invasor (he is the best) was the best value. LM did not match up on figures.

If it makes you happy, Bernie did split up my exacta with the show horse.

[PaceAdvantage]

I can vouch for Tom...I was in the War Room with him as well, along with about 4 or 5 others....he was all over Invasor at post time....

[the_fat_man]

You really have a stranglehold on lame hiding behind the computer internet condescension. I am honestly jealous. I feel a mere novice in your presense.

Sorry if I don't apologize if perhaps I got a little lucky in getting a 13-1 shot home who I predicted was in a spot to get a perfect trip. Assuming you bet you know that one often gets unlucky with reasonably good selections so getting lucky occasionally is simply a case of things somewhat evening out. A Pine Island- Round Pond exacta would have been just fine with me and, frankly I am also on record as suggesting the clock would eventually strike twelve for Fleet Indian, so her unfortunate injury did not particularly come as a giant surprise to me. She was the one horse on the entire BC show I singled out as the best favorite to bet against.

Meaning what, exactly, you wanna meet up and duke it out? :p
What's considered 'SWING STREET' these days? (used to be 52nd street)

Chill, tough guy.

You got lucky. It's part of the game.

[the_fat_man]

I can vouch for Tom...I was in the War Room with him as well, along with about 4 or 5 others....he was all over Invasor at post time....

Well, in that case, Tom is the man and I'm a victim of dated data.

:ThmbUp:

[Indulto]

Meaning what, exactly, you wanna meet up and duke it out? :p
What's considered 'SWING STREET' these days? (used to be 52nd street)

Chill, tough guy.

You got lucky. It's part of the game.tfm,
It's always better to be lucky than good, but one still gets credit for putting oneself in a position to be lucky.

The idea of either a pugilistic or a handicap contest between tfm and tlg gives the term "assigned weight differential" new meaning.:D

[the little guy]

The idea of either a pugilistic or a handicap contest between tfm and tlg gives the term "assigned weight differential" new meaning.:D


I think we could start a " PaceAdvantage - Pay-Per-View " series with a bang!

[the little guy]

Meaning what, exactly, you wanna meet up and duke it out? :p
What's considered 'SWING STREET' these days? (used to be 52nd street)

Chill, tough guy.

You got lucky. It's part of the game.

Ya know, when people say things like " chill out " on the internet it basically means " I'm an asshole ". It just demeans you and lowers your standing of arrogance that you have worked very hard for.

[Tom]

I think we could start a " PaceAdvantage - Pay-Per-View " series with a bang!

We should get a group together, contact CBS and get a season of "Survivor-Paceadvantage.":D

One of the challenges could be - let a comment pass! :lol:

[cj]

interesting that UPON doing the figures for the race (better late than never)

your GURU concurs that B was best



First off, I am hardly Tom's guru. He has probably forgotten more than I know.

Second, I'm a bettor. I always look back after the race and see who I think was helped / hindered by the trip, and relate to the figures I assign the race. Since this is the third time you mention it, what is the problem with that?

Regardless of who was the better horse, Invasor was the better bet, both before, and obviously, after the race.

Lastly, Round Pond was not losing that race, regardless of who broke down and who was blocked in the stretch. Luckily on dirt, having absolutely no early speed is still a detriment. However, even had Asi Siempre been clear, it is pure speculation at best she was getting anywhere near the winner, who was simply cruising late.

[cj]

And, as these selections were broadcast in many spots, they are easily verifiable. It seems another poster here saw at least some of them.

I thought this was the channel for the Orioles, Wizards, and Capitols? If so, that means we can find at least 10 to 12 people that have access, and a couple must have watched. :lol::lol:

[the little guy]

I thought this was the channel for the Orioles, Wizards, and Capitols? If so, that means we can find at least 10 to 12 people that have access, and a couple must have watched. :lol::lol:


For better or worse, not the Wizards and Capitals, but the Os and Nats.

So, I guess that narrows the viewers down to.....six?

[the_fat_man]

Ya know, when people say things like " chill out " on the internet it basically means " I'm an asshole ". It just demeans you and lowers your standing of arrogance that you have worked very hard for.

Alright then

It's me and you on SWING STREET

You're just pissed cause you know I'm right about your display of HUBRIS.

[the_fat_man]

Lastly, Round Pond was not losing that race, regardless of who broke down and who was blocked in the stretch. Luckily on dirt, having absolutely no early speed is still a detriment. However, even had Asi Siempre been clear, it is pure speculation at best she was getting anywhere near the winner, who was simply cruising late.

I have to disagree here. When 2 ostensibly contending horses break down it gets kind of hard to say that a certain horse would've won anyway. This is not to say that I thought Fleet Indian had a shot. I agree with TLG that she didn't. Now, if you were to watch the replay a bit more closely you'd notice that Asi Siempre genuinely had no room from the point where she entered the stretch to the wire. Not only did she not have room but she basically never got a chance to run. Another way of putting it: she was full of run. Even you would agree that had she gotten free, RP would not be cruising to the wire.

As for Invasor. The horse was certainly a value play and let's face it, even though I'm not a big fan, I certainly thought he was better than the rest of the field. Who else could I possibly like in the race? I'm on record as saying that I thought B was best and that BD would beat LM. whatever

Now, there's a distinction between being a value play, I think, and being a horse one would bet with confidence. I couldn't bet B at the price, nor could I bet against him. Others obviously could.

As it turned out the value bet won as the best horse got a shitty ride/setup.

My mention of your need to check the figures stems from frustration after the race with the feeding frenzy like overhyping of Invasor. Additionally, from the need to verify mathematically what, to me, was obvious visually. Such is the nature of the game, I suppose.
I appreciate you coming back a day later and setting things straight, so to speak.

I fully realize that people get excited after cashing. My only point is that the races need to be looked at objectively. It's one thing to win, quite another to beat one's chest after getting lucky. I know we're all victims of bad beats and we consider it payback when we have good fortune.

[cj]

For better or worse, not the Wizards and Capitals, but the Os and Nats.

So, I guess that narrows the viewers down to.....six?

The CapitAls have been so bad for so long, I can't even remember how to spell the damn name.

[cj]

My mention of your need to check the figures stems from frustration after the race with the feeding frenzy like overhyping of Invasor. Additionally, from the need to verify mathematically what, to me, was obvious visually. Such is the nature of the game, I suppose.
I appreciate you coming back a day later and setting things straight, so to speak.


I like to judge things visually, then verify with the numbers. Sometimes they agree, but not always. That is why I check. A perfect example was War Emblem, who visually looked like he set a slow pace before drawing away to win both the Illinois and Kentucky Derbys. However, my figures told a different story, and I confidently bet him in both, as well as the Preakness. Sometimes the eyes lie.

[classhandicapper]

I like to look at things from all directions because IMO no one has a lock on accuracy.

Sometimes numbers are simply wrong because of all the complexites of making the figures and understanding how all the possible pace combinations impact time.

Sometimes it's extremely difficult to interpret a result based on quality of field and trip analysis because of form cycle and other complexities associated with that.

Usually though, if you are reasonably skilled, IMO you can interpret results and performances way better by looking at both than by one or the other alone. When it's still fuzzy, you can at least adjust the aggressiveness of your betting until you see how the horses are coming out of the race. IMO, that's better than making bets based on bad numbers or flawed trip/qiality interpretations because you are only looking at things from one direction.