Baffert suspended!

[andicap]

Here's the link. Morphine use in a winner. Got 60 days.


http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/ttodaysnewsview.asp#12958



andicap

[karlskorner]

Thats Bob Baffert, leading trainer in the country, gets 60 days from Calif board for use of morphine. THATS 60 DAYS, not 10, 20 or 30 days.

Reminds me of another post in which I discussed "Milk Shakes" and was assured by Rick Ransom that the use of "juice" today is no where as rampant as it was back in the 80's. Dream on. When I look out over the Everglades and see smoke, I know there is a fire.

What goes through the minds of the "small time" trainer ? Does he play it by the rules ? If Baffert gets away with this (will drag through the courts for a long time) than all you have to do is hire a good lawyer and pull off an O.J. Simpson.

Karl

[smf]

I'm not too surpised this goes on routinely in some barns. I gather most here feel the same way.

On Roger Stein's show, he talks of this often. He sez something like 'Baffert or Frankel using juice with everyday runners is like Warren Buffet robbing a 7-11. What's the point? He doesn't have to cheat'.

He oftentimes has a guest trainer on his show and the guests usually agrees w/ his logic. The last guest that Stein had and used the Buffet analogy said "yeah, but why is it that they always catch the big winners and not the 0 fer 50 guy? Seems like when they catch someone, they're a really high % winner."

Good point.

[karlskorner]

SMF

The answer is simple. If I told you Trainer Joe Palooka at Broken Downs was using "juice" it wouldn't surprise you. But to make the public aware of what is going on you need a "big name", someone who trained Capt. Steve or Point Given.

A trainer is not going to attract owners unless he produces "winners". The bills keep coming in every month to trainers, just as you and I get ours, sometimes they get desperate.

The statement "I was Robbed" sometimes has more meaning to it then appears. The States "must" impove their lab's, the penalty's "must" be severe. How about 6 years not 60 days.

Karl

[Larry Hamilton]

I am confused. The horse is guilty of having morphine in his blood. The trainer is pronounced guilty. I don't understand the LEGAL connection. ANyone could dope any horse. Baffert is guilty of having Motive, perhaps Means, and unproved Method. The case appears incomplete. It has not been proven he administered the drug or ordered it's administration. The article posted by andy doesnt say that.

Frankly, either the article is poorly written or the California Stewards are head hunting. Because I don't believe three judges (?) could be this ignorant, I am going to assume 1 jounalist and 1 editor are. Take you pick.

[Rick Ransom]

karlscorner,

Did I say that? I just can't see why the high earning trainers would intentionally do something so stupid that it would jeapordize their career. But I don't understand Daryl Strawberry either. Now, if it's something they can hide, that's a different story. Really though, I don't think it should affect your handicapping. These things don't do much to make the races less predictable, and sometimes they make them more predicatable.

[ceejay]

http://www.drf.com/news/article/29277.html

This link has more info on Baffert's side of the issue.

I'm not taking sides here but does anyone out there know how morphine, a sedative, would improve performance anyway? I guess that it could make the animal forget about her pain.

[andicap]

Originally posted by Larry Hamilton
I am confused. The horse is guilty of having morphine in his blood. The trainer is pronounced guilty. I don't understand the LEGAL connection. ANyone could dope any horse. Baffert is guilty of having Motive, perhaps Means, and unproved Method. The case appears incomplete. It has not been proven he administered the drug or ordered it's administration. The article posted by andy doesnt say that.

Frankly, either the article is poorly written or the California Stewards are head hunting. Because I don't believe three judges (?) could be this ignorant, I am going to assume 1 jounalist and 1 editor are. Take you pick.


there have been several cases about this and much debate. The trainer is responsible for ANYTHING that happens in his barn. So, the trainers say, an unhappy groom could give a horse a drug and the trainer would be held liable.
The debate came up a few years ago when Lukas was accused of something or other (forgot) and said he can't control from some renegade groom does.
The regulators reply that SOMEONE has to be held responsible for what happens to the horses in the barns and it might as well be the trainer since they probably won't catch the individual grooms. Besides if you punish the grooms and not the trainers, the trainers can always say it was a renegade groom and will NEVER take the fall.
I agree with the state in this matter. Vital you show the public that you will get tough to retain confidence in the sport. Though I sympathize with the trainers. Not sure of the answer myself.

andicap

[Tuffmug]

If horse eats a poppy seed bagel he will test positive for morphine! Remember Elaine in Seinfeld episode? Suspect this is what happened. Amoumt found was trace amount, not going to improve horse's performance or ease debilitating pain. Why would Baffert use morphine when he can legally use Bute in California?

This is zero tolerance idiocy!

[Larry Hamilton]

I was hoping we wouldnt go here, but we have. The trainer is held responsible for something over which he doesn't have complete control because it is necessary for the good of the game. I think I'll wait till I am more calm to comment on this.

[Que]

Personally, I think in the best interests of the betting public the information regarding medication in the DRF needs to updated. Here's my suggestions for some new codes:

Muscle Builders
BA - Anabolic Steroids
BB - Beta-2 Antagonists
BI - Insulin

Oxygens
OA - Artificial Oxygen Carriers
OB - Blood doping
OE - Erythropoietin

Painkellers:
PB - Phenylbutazone (Bute)
PC - Cortisone
PH - Heroine
PL - Local Anesthetics
PM - Morphine/Methadone
PP - Protine Hormones

Relaxants:
RA - Alcohol
RB - Beta-blockers
RC - Cannaboids

Stimulants:
SA - Amphetamines
SC - Cocaine
SF - Caffine
SK - Crack Cocaine
SP - Phenylephrin

Oxygens
OA - Artificial Oxygen Carriers
OB - Blood doping
OE - EPO

And the most important category:

Maskers
MA - Diuretics
ME - Epitestosterone
ML - Lasix
MP - Plasma Expanders
MS - Secretion Inhibitors

A few new lines trainers can tell their jockeys.

"It may seem like his coordination and balance is a little off, but he's been real tight lately so I've been adding some cannabinoids to his feed. "

"I've given her a lot of diueritics, so be sure stop a few times before and after the race to let her relieve herself."

"Don't worry about her shaking, it's just all the caffine I've given her."

"Don't be concerned if he vomits a few times before the start, it's just all the secretion inhibitors I've been giving him."

A few new lines trainers can tell their owners.

"I wouldn't be conerned about him breaking down, I've given him lots of local anesthetics, so he won't feel any pain."

"Don't worry about all those stomach ulcers caused by the artificial hormones we've been feeding her, we'll just drop her down a few classes and earn some purse money and the claiming fee."

"Don't be concerned about the bowed tendon, with all the anabolic steroids I've been giving him they're supposed to be bowed."

"Don't worry yourself--the jockey doen't even know she's on heroine."

Que.

[so.cal.fan]

Que,
Thank you for posting that.
It is most informative.

Do you know anything about Oxycotin? I hope the spelling is right on that. It is a synthetic morphine.
In a new program they were talking about it being used on the streets, and the kicker was: Ky. had the biggest amount being sold!!!!!! Not New York City or L.A. - Kentucky!!!!!!!!

[karlskorner]

I forget the exact wording, but every condition book I have ever read is explicit when it comes to who is responsible for the well being of a horse. It's the Trainer.

Easy enough to blame the groom, hotwalker or the guy that delivers the mail. But think about it, you don't buy morphine at K-MART. The disgruntled emplyee is easy enough to blame, but reason tells you that we are talking about illict drugs and needles, not an easy item to purchase through the mail. And then we get technical, where do you inject the animal, in the nose, the shoulder, the heart ? Think the groom, hotwalker or the mailman knows ?

It goes far deeper than that. Tzke your car as an example, if it "pings" on regular gas, you fill it with Hi-Test, still "pings", better call in the mechanic. You feed a horse first cut hay, oats and molases and it doesn't do much for him, so you give him/her vitamins, still no improvement. Better call the VET (the mechanic) he
suggests a few things, but no improvement, the Vet then says he probably needs Lasix (ever notice how many horses are on Lasix in an 8 horse field, the track has to contain a high amount of blood from all these bleeders) Now we come to the crux, Lasix, that wonderful medicine that hides so many things. Lasix isn't doing it, so the VET calls his friend at DuPont Chemical, or wherever, etc. etc.

Common sense tells you that neither the groom, hot walker or the mailman have the knowledge, wherewithall or the opportunity to inject the horse with morphine (or whatever) But the VET is licensed to buy morphine and needles, is he going to jepordize his position without first discussing it with the Trainer. I think not.

Karl

[baravot]

Que,

Funny post and pathetic that it's gotten to that state.

I looked at the DRF article, and it is disturbing to me that the blood sample was conveniently tossed. That makes the administration of "justice" quite suspect.

Beyond that, Baffert doesn't strike me as the kind of guy that would be so reckless. Given his level of success, motive seems questionable here as well. And 73 nanograms makes Tuffmug's poppy seed bagel explanation very plausible.

[karlskorner]

Everybody is trying so hard to exonirate Bob Baffert, after all this is the industrys #1 man, fun guy, always has a joke, makes good press, gets people interested in the sport.

Conviently lose the blood sample, yet the split samples both contained morphine. Blame it on somebody, but heavens to Betsy, not Bob Baffert.

Try this the next time your near your favorite Drug Store. Go in and put your arm around the Druggist and say "I'd like to get me a bottle of that morhpine that everybodys talking about". See how fast your put out the front door.

Karl

[baravot]

karlskorner,

I'm not trying to exonerate Baffert. If he's guilty of drugging his horse(s), he should be punished. But 73 nanograms and a missing blood sample do cast some doubt on the whole matter in my mind.

This incident reminds me of another one not too long ago where I believe 3 So. Cal trainers were accussed of drugging their horses and, if memory serves me correctly, it turned out it was a case of contaminated feed.

[Tom]

I think a zero-tolerance policy in anything shows zero intelligence. Every case must stand on its own merit. This is witch-hunting, and this is comming from a guy who thinks the trainer or jockey should be held financially responsible for the enite pool when they are caught cheating (Hey, Jose-you get 5 days for cutting off the three Sunday, And you owe us $123.567 for the pool ou screwed up!)
Racing needs integrity and this doesn't bring it-it brings ridicule and a national image we don't need-just think how many people talked about this at the water coolers today (Hey Fred, now we now why Point Given didn't win the Derby-Baffert forgot the dope! Must've gotten some in fresh for the Preakness?).
But like I've always said, most people involved in race tracks and racing administration are either idiots or someone'e cousin who needed a job.
Tom

[Dick Schmidt]

Tom,

Good post - well said. Lots of people look at racing on the same level as professional wrestling. If the fix was in all the time, we couldn't beat the game at all, and some of us do.

Dick

[Dave Schwartz]

Well guys, I have to disagree with you on this one. I believe there is a huge difference between a jockey in the heat of battle making a physical mistake and a conscious act of breaking the drug rules.

In my opinion the latter is true cheating and should be dealt with extremely harshly. I believe that the game is better off without trainers and jockeys that cheat.

Imagine how Major League Baseball would react if a player was caught dropping a fly ball on purpose because he had made a bet on a game. Look at Pete Rose, for gosh sakes.

For that matter, I think THEY are way to lenient on the corked bat stuff.

IMHO, intentional cheating of any kind, should be dealt with severly. That is the only way the integrity of the game can be preserved.


Okay, so I do have to admit that I also believe that people who speed excessively should be punished (and I once got a ticket where the officer was being nice to clock me at "only" 91 mph when I was actually doing 130). So, I admit to a touch of hypocrisy.

[PaceAdvantage]

It may be my lack of imagination, but I don't see a better method other than holding the trainer ultimately and completely responsible for whatever illegal substances happen to appear in his horses.

There can't be too many shades of gray when it comes to laying down the law and providing law abiding people with a fair and level playing field.


==PA

[bdhsheets]

1.For the longest time, NY was the last jurisdiction to allow the treatment of horses with lasix.

The question is: Is racing better or worse in NY since the change? I didn't pay too much attention to NY at the time because lack of simulcasting capabilities, so I can't really say. Any New Yorkers wanna step up?

2. I find it interesting that the two biggest power trainers in thoroughbred racing came from the ranks of quarter horse racing. (I believe DWL still dabbles in it) What do they know that the rest of civilization doesn't? Better racing through chemistry? DWL has been busted several times and I wanna say that this is #2 for Baffy. Coincidence? Perhaps.

3. There are several trainers out east, that were average at best, suddenly winning close to 30%. How does that happen? Do they discover a horses funnybone and tickle it to make them run faster? Hmmmmmmm kinda doubt it. Looking at thousands of Thoro-graph Sheets, certain trainers take over a horse and "suddenly" these horses are running consecutive new tops or very good figures, when in the past they reacted to every good one. Training genius at work? Perhaps, but doubt it.

That's enough for now.

Later,

bdhsheets

[ceejay]

bdh:

Although I haven't seen any stats on it, it seems to me that Lasix is much less common in quarterhorses than TB. How much bleeding can occur in the most common 250-400 yd races?

That said, L1 does appear to be a powerful angle with QH's.

[andicap]

I can never believe a trainer can win 25-30% through placing the horse int he right spot. Passaro claimed he won all those races that way and then they find pepper on the horses, uh, privates.
C'mon! Doesn't anyone remember Oscar juice? The stuff Oscar Barrera gave his horses. The moment the stewards told Oscar to cut it out he started losing.

Now Baffert deserves due process and an appeal -- you can't take away a man's livelihood without a fair and thorough hearing and appeal. And I'm not enough of an expert to know whether a trace of morphine (if it was was a trace) can find its way into a horse's bloodstream any other way than a trainer injecting it. But everyone should honor the process however it comes out.
And I agree that if the trainer isn't held responsible, then who is? If the trainer isn't held responsible then the barn will just make a poor groom the scapegoat every time.

andicap

[SAL]

I truly believe in the "juice" trainer theory. I am not a believer that an average trainer all of a sudden got good stock and in turn produced a phenomenal win percentage because of recognition from other owners.

I've seen a few trainers over the years (remember Peter Ferriola?) get extremely hot and win with everything they claim with dramatic jumps in Beyer figures. Then after awhile they fade out of the picture. Why? I think it's because whatever "juice" they were using was undetectable at first, and when the drug police caught on the game was over.

I do believe that many high percentage trainers are legit, as Scott Lake may prove to be. But I would have to see the high percentage maintained over a long period of time. Baffert and Hollendorfer have been doing it for years, I would believe if either of them were using illegal means they would have been caught sooner.

One of the best books I've read on the subject of trainers is "Inside the Claiming Game" by Steve Collison. In it he describes how sometimes a horse can show such sudden improvement when going from one barn to another, and how to capitalize on certain claiming patterns. A highly recommended read.

[HRH]

I'm not taking sides here but does anyone out there know how morphine, a sedative, would improve performance anyway? I guess that it could make the animal forget about her pain.

The way that I understand it is that opiates act in a contrary way in a horse. Opiates freshen and wake up a horse. One of the nicknames for heroin is 'horse' as it was used alot at one time to get horses up and running well.
A few years ago I read about a similar incident in which trace amounts of morphine were found and the trainer was disciplined. The article also mentioned that it is possible to detect trace amounts of morphine in the air. This could be from the poppy fields in Asia.
Another interesting fact while we're on the subject.
A test was done on US currency and a huge majority of the currency was found to have trace amounts of cocaine on it. Your American Dollars hard at work.

[baravot]

andicap wrote:

"Now Baffert deserves due process and an appeal -- you can't take away a man's livelihood without a fair and thorough hearing and appeal. And I'm not enough of an expert to know whether a trace of morphine (if it was was a trace) can find its way into a horse's bloodstream any other way than a trainer injecting it. But everyone should honor the process however it comes out.
And I agree that if the trainer isn't held responsible, then who is? If the trainer isn't held responsible then the barn will just make a poor groom the scapegoat every time."

I completely agree.

[Tim]

Originally posted by baravot
I looked at the DRF article, and it is disturbing to me that the blood sample was conveniently tossed. That makes the administration of "justice" quite suspect.
The real crime in this situation is that the marketing guys can get millions for absurd marketing campaigns like "Go Baby Go" and the science guys can't get enough dollars for adequate refrigeration capacity to hold the specimens that have the power to affect careers.

Tim

[Rick Ransom]

My two cents worth: Keep the trainer responsible for the whole thing but set the levels at something that has been shown to be performance enhancing, not trace levels.

They do the same thing with people these days. I worked one place where they were trying to hire a woman and told her they were going to cut out a lock of her hair for a drug test (with which they can test for drug use years ago). She refused and took another job. I don't think it was because she'd used drugs. She just didn't want to put up with that sh** and had a better alternative!

[andicap]

Rick, reminds me of the old Groucho Marx joke with Margaret Dumont

Groucho: You'll think me a sentimental old fool, but can I have a lock your hair?
Dumont: (Pleased) A lock of my hair?
Groucho: You're getting off lucky. I could have asked for the whole wig.



andicap (in a jokey mood today)

[Larry Hamilton]

Let me introduce a wrinkle I haven't seen discussed. My name is D Wayne Lukas, i dont like Baffert, he is giving old qtr horse trainers a bad name, if i get him fired, my job will be easier. I am going to get rid of him by giving his horse something in ingest which raises the morphine in his blood. (It has been suggested that trace amounts can be derived from poppy seeds on bread)

Naturally, this is not to impugn DWL, I only used his name to illustrate a point. Would DWL be a suspicious character around a barn--ANY BARN!! How about any groom, how about any potential owner..the damn list is endless!!

There is of course, a solution to this problem. The trainer must live in the barn, it must be padlocked so that only he has access, all others must be signed in and their signatures verified and a retina test adminsterd. During works and races, the trainer must accompany the horse around the track in that station wagon to ensure no one tampers with his charge. A note to the stewards: ensure there are enough station wagons in each race to watch each horse and widen the track (and pave it) so that the station wagons have adequate room and ability to keep up.

I am sure, that by now, you see the absurdity of charging Baffert with anything, UNLESS he was observed doing it or was overheard plotting it.

Some of you may wonder why I am so passionate about this subject. When I was in the army, I failed the drug-detecting pee test after 18 years service. My commander was gong to put me out of the service. It never occured to him that I loved beer and that dope had no place in my life. A second test (at my insistence) proved my innocense but not before the commander was thoroughly despised by all. You cannot go off half cocked. If you make claims--PROVE THEM!! if you hear claims, especially those that make or break a career--DEMAND PROOT!!

Here is one more bit of absurdity that may convince you in a more personal way. You were on Main Stree in your Home Town yesterday. You were late for an appoitment at Dairy Queen. There is only one stop light. Someone ran it. Every one who was in town yesterday will receive a ticket for running a red light. There is opportunity, there is means, but there was motivation. Ergo you are guilty

[Dave Schwartz]

Larry,

I know this is scary, but I see your point. It is a position that is hard to refute.

The unfortunate part of all this is that the trainer (somebody?) needs to take responsibility for this stuff.

The public is wagering money and somebody needs to take responsibility for making sure that gamblers get a fair shake.

My contention is that somewhere there is a solution. Of course one of the main problems is that nobody really seems to care except the bettors. (Gee, this sounds like familiar territory.)

[Rick Ransom]

Yeah, they used to make us all stay after school when one guy did something wrong and they didn't know who it was. Why not punish everyone, that way you're sure to hurt the guilty one. Next thing you know, they'll be having everyone take polygraph tests. At least they only have a 20% false positive rate.

Really though, it's just too easy for a disgruntled ex-employee or competing trainer to get revenge. Don't make any enemies. The guy you p***d off might plant drugs in your car or home and call the cops. People do this all the time.

[Tom]

Originally posted by Tim

The real crime in this situation is that the marketing guys can get millions for absurd marketing campaigns like "Go Baby Go" and the science guys can't get enough dollars for adequate refrigeration capacity to hold the specimens that have the power to affect careers.

Tim

Very well put. NTRA is nothing but a complete and total joke. It has never done a damn thing for this sport and it never will. It was set up to funnel money to bunch of mindless A******S becasue they are far too lazy to actually work for a living. They are leeched. Leeched need to burned off with a cigarette. I will volunterer. Go Baby Go is the stupidist thing I ever heard. No one ever yelled that at my track.
"BOAT RACE!" or "WHIP HIM YOU JERK!" are more like it.
Tom

[FortuneHunter]

IMO, Trainers should be held responsible. The Backstretch is a closed area. You have to be a licensed employee to be on the backstretch. The trainer is the top management of the barn. He has foremans who he entrusts the care of the stable to. Accordingly he knows his foremans probably for years. They are trustworthy and, in the trainers mind, or they are fired. The foremans know the grooms. They watch the grooms and make sure of the integrity of these individuals. They make it be known that any bullshit is not tolerated, no second chances. Anybody who has any knowledge and did not come forward is fired also. And the stable dog is trained such that if any strangers are in the area, somebody knows about it or that puppy is fired too.

The buck stops with the trainer. If he can't surround himself with honest people, than he should pay the price.

As far as the Baffert situation with the trace of morphine. He will not actually serve any suspension time. It was a show of force by the isane So. Cal Racing authorities.

[NoDayJob]

While the "buck" stops at the trainer, Larry H.'s scenario makes uncommon** sense. If sense were so common** then we'd all have it. -NDJ

[karlskorner]

Fortune Hunter

Read todays DRF. He is doing 60 days, no ands whats or buts

[FortuneHunter]

NDJ - Sounds a little paranoid to me, but you must consider the source. This guy has left this board a least 4 times in the last 2 years over things like nick names. On the other hand, I guess anything can happen in So. Cal.

KarlsKorner - Suspension starts on 6/25. Fat Lady hasn't sung yet. Let's see what happens.

[Tom]

So does anyone think for a minute that he won't be calling all the shots from off-track? Or that he won't get interviewed on TV some way or another?
What gets me is that the CA- raisin-heads can throw out a sample that would be evidence in a live case. Nice play, boys. But then, it took they bastions of integrity about a year to resolve this case-DUH (that's a word-look it up!).
Hey California, are you trying to challenge Floridi-duh for the title of dumbest state?
Can you spell i-n-c-o-m-p-e-t-e-n-t?????
If that little trace of dope was so bad, why did you let it go for a year without protecting the bettors?
Dumb? Stupid? Lazy? Must be the sun these states get.
And these guys get paid big bucks. What if a fireman worked like these bozos-"What, a fire, wellllll, I was going to be in the area next week. I'll stop by!"
Tom

[baravot]

Tom,

You nailed another one. Good post.

[Rick Ransom]

I'm from California (I said FROM), and you've got it right! Beautiful state, weird people, especially in racing.

[smf]

Yo, Tom! Hillary wasn't voted in office by the So Florida contingent, or by California. 'Splain that one <g>.

[karlskorner]

Todays DRF has printed complete text by CHRB'S ruling on Baffert's case. Interesting reading

Karl

[baravot]

karlskorner,

Thanks for alerting to the text of the decision.

After reading it thoroughly, it seems to me that the CHRB is actually doing the responsible thing. They are not, as far as I can tell, accussing Baffert of drugging his horse per se. Instead, they appear to be penalizing him for not having stringent enough procedures in place to minimize the chances of his horses being drugged by someone else:

"Respondent does not have a designated watchman for his barn. The testimony indicating that three adults spent considerable time in his barn, approaching horses without being questioned by Respondents employees indicates that staff has not been trained to protect the horses from outside influences. Since Respondent does not participate in the pre-employment testing of his employees, he increases the likelihood that his operation might not be a drug-free workplace; thereby, increasing the risk of drug exposure to his horses."

While I had my doubts before, after reading this decision I'm persuaded that this is not a with-hunt nor is it a violation of due process. It appears to me to be a necessary penalty to help insure the integrity of the game.

[Tim]

Two interesting columns in the DRF.

"The too-long arm of the law" by Jay Hoovey and "Baffert to seek restraining order " By STEVE ANDERSEN

And they wonder why they can't fill races in Cal.

IMHO, I would treat the positions taken by the CHRB with a grain of salt. They have a history of taking extreme views that throw the baby out with the bath water.

Tim

[Tom]

Originally posted by smf
Yo, Tom! Hillary wasn't voted in office by the So Florida contingent, or by California. 'Splain that one <g>.



I now believe in flying saucers and martians.
you're not paranoid if they rally ARE out to get you!

SSMH
Tom