The Most Crooked Track Around??

[sq764]

I was at the OTB last night and this guy was betting Penn National and must have lost, because he said "Penn National is the most crooked track around"..

He's a jackass, but it made me think.. What is the most crooked track around? Do we, as handicappers, trust that all racing is legitimate and fair, that its all tainted, that the big tracks are fair and the smaller tracks are easier to corrupt??

I don't know where I stand on the issue. I feel comfortable in stating that MOST of the racing is legit, but not all.. I wonder if we all know this, but still choose to just live with it..

[JustRalph]

that guy was right! I stopped playing Penn National after watching some crazy shit happen there. Like a loose horse that gets chased all the way around the track at full speed and then back to the front of the gate by outriders. They grab him up and throw him in the gate and he is off and running without being examined or anything. he was 7-2 and ran dead last after making the lead....

How about this one. its so foggy one night that 8 horses leave the gate and they can't even call the race. they turn for home and only five cross the finish line and you can't even tell who won, and the announcer says so....... after five minutes a horse comes riding back to the winners circle and is proclaimed the winner. The kick is, I watched the race over again and he wasn't one of the five that was seen crossing the line??? They realize after another ten minutes that one is still missing....they start searching the track and find the horse down on top of Clinton Potts and he is stuck in the outside fence. Its hush hush time and two days later they announce that potts is out with broken pelvis and numerous problems. Oh yeah the winner of that so called fog fest was 43-1 and had been off for 6 months. I am doing this from memory, but I think I am pretty much on target....so...... That guy was right!!!

[GameTheory]

Well, there is "crooked" stuff (intentional, planned larceny) and then there is "stupid, unfair" stuff. I would put JustRalph's examples in the latter category.

There will always be some amount of crookedness because there is money involved so people will always try to steal it one way or another. Naturally, a certain percentage are going to succeed.

Another good question is:

Does the present have more or less amount of crookedness than the past? Even after accepting that we've got some problems here and there, is it nevertheless possible that right now is the cleanest the sport has ever been?

[Triple Trio]

Tonight in the UK a program on the corruption of racing will be broadcast:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/panorama/2290356.stm

Maybe someone should do a similar program for the US?

[JimG]

I don't know about "crooked". And I like longshots probably better than the next guy because alot of my plays are keyed around longshots. What I will say, is of all the tracks I have played( and there are many) the track that stands out the most in my mind of How did that horse win? and me coming up with no answer is ..........Evangeline Downs........not sure they are crooked, but they have made me shake my head on more than just a few occasions over the years.

Jim

[Myhorse1_X]

I am going to "Defend" the crooked track. Let me start by saying that anything that defrauds the bettor from his money is not a good thing.

The problem is that a track does not have high enough purses to pay for the expenses of the horse. Even if the horse wins a few now and then, consider that the average vet bill on a horse in a stable runs about $1,000/month, along with feed, barn bill and trainer expenses. It costs about $2,250/month to support a horse at a track. (This is expenses from a lesser track!!!). Even if the horse wins a few, he usually can't be run more than a couple of times a month.
The owner/trainer is faced with continuing expenses with a horse that doesn't win enough to support himself.
So----this leads to drugging, using "ringer" horses, having jockey's pull (when a jockey holds the reins very tight when the gate opens so the horse gets a bad start), and so on. By doing these things, the owner/trainer gets the horse that could win not to perform well so his odds will go up. Then when the opportunity comes up, the horse wires the field at 10-1 with the owner/trainer betting on the horse, some to win, but usually keying a trifecta over all over all for the money to pay his bills.
Instead of getting their expense money from purses, they get it from the betting public. Not a very pretty picture, but a fact.
At better tracks where the purses are high the owner/trainer/jockey is not going to risk his license for such going's on.
Stick with the Class A tracks and you won't find this going on(I hope). The cheaper tracks, you will.

MyHorse1

[sq764]

I guess we all seem to agree that there are occasions where races are not on the up and up..

I wonder though, if there are 100 races from 10 big and small tracks in a day, how many may not be on the up and up.. 1? 10? 25?

[superfecta]

Most races have horses that have no chance to win but are placed into the race as a workout for the horse,or as a favor to the track secretary to fill ot a race.Now is this crooked?And what happens if one who is in for filler,wins ?
Or how about the trainer who routes his horse for a couple of races telling the jock,just let him run,then drops into a sprint to win at long odds?Is that wrong?
Or maybe the horse is in a Gr 1 today but the Breeders cup is coming up and the trainer says use this race as a good prep,so don't beat the horse too much.Is that crooked?
guess it depends on if these horses are on your ticket.........

[Tom]

Why would anyone assume racing is not crooked when every other business that involves money is?
As long there is cash, there will be trash.
I have more faith in racing than I do the stock market - bigger pools, bigger fools.

[TonyK@HSH]

Earth to JustRalph...over. I can't believe what I just read. Maybe you really meant to post it PA's new Horse Race fiction section. Ther it would make a good read. But seriously, if you can't manage to win at a specific track, it's wise to avoid that track. But to blame your failure on such stories....it's not fair to the other readers of this board as someone may actually believe you and lose an opportunity to make money. Let's address you comments one by one.

Originally posted by JustRalph
that guy was right! I stopped playing Penn National after watching some crazy shit happen there. Like a loose horse that gets chased all the way around the track at full speed and then back to the front of the gate by outriders. They grab him up and throw him in the gate and he is off and running without being examined or anything. he was 7-2 and ran dead last after making the lead....

Response- At Penn National (and every track I've raced at) at vet is positioned at the gate. The vet DOES perform a check after any incident like a prerace runoff of gate infraction. In this case, the vet may have made a bad call (I don't know) but it's unfair to infer that the horse was raced without some inspection by and consultation with a vet.

How about this one. its so foggy one night that 8 horses leave the gate and they can't even call the race. they turn for home and only five cross the finish line and you can't even tell who won, and the announcer says so....... after five minutes a horse comes riding back to the winners circle and is proclaimed the winner. The kick is, I watched the race over again and he wasn't one of the five that was seen crossing the line??? They realize after another ten minutes that one is still missing....they start searching the track and find the horse down on top of Clinton Potts and he is stuck in the outside fence. Its hush hush time and two days later they announce that potts is out with broken pelvis and numerous problems. Oh yeah the winner of that so called fog fest was 43-1 and had been off for 6 months. I am doing this from memory, but I think I am pretty much on target....so...... That guy was right!!!

Response- Man these guys are smart... first they (however they are) manage to enter this 43-1 shot 2-3 days in advance anticipating a fogbank covering the track. Second they manage to fool or payoff the jocks (and owners and trainers) that ran 1-2-3 in order to post this winner. Thirdly, it is interesting that you were able to determine that the eventual winner didn't cross the line
when you 'couldn't even tell who won'.
Now I'm assuming you believe the motive for you story to be money. Well the pools at Pen aren't that big and a 43-1 shot may have $150-$250 bet to win. Throw exactas, tri's, P3's on top of this and 'they' may have taken $7500 or so out of the windows supposing 'they' were the only ones to bet. Bet they drove off with a suitcase full of ones in a black PT Cruiser. Al Capone would have been proud of them.....

Can't wait for your next tale......

[JustRalph]

I didn't say I didn't make any money there. I actually did make some. My dad made more, but I quit playing Penn after he died. He liked the track. I didn't say they anticipated a fog bank? The point was that in the video they showed, nobody could tell and the announcer said that as they closed in on the finish line. I question whether they should have been running. Hell they lost a horse........and rider. On the race replay they even made a point that they were trying to make out the saddle cloths, but you could see those nice big dark objects whisking through the fog. I guess the jocks got together and decided who came through first. Or maybe a steward standing on the line. Either way I didn't trust it at all. I watched the video over and never saw the winner come through. I also got an email from someone else that night who said he didn't see him either. We were at the mercy of the camera though. I am not sure even where the field was in the race and I am not sure the camera people were either.

I can tell you this, It wasn't foggy the night they chased the horse clear around the track and back, put him in the gate and off they went. Everybody saw that one........ I don't know of many other tracks where 9 jocks have been indicted for race fixing either. I agree with the earlier point of staying away from of the small tracks for these reasons. Oh yeah, a motive for story telling? what the hell are you talking about? Blaming my failures on the track? Who the hell do you think you are? You think I place blame for failures......on the board here? BTW I don't have any failures at Horse racing, what the hell makes you think that? I commented based on the original question asked on the thread. What the hell makes you think that reading my comments is going to make someone else lose a chance to make money? You think someone is going to skip Penn because they read something on this board? And why would my comments be any different than when someone else makes comments about smaller tracks in general? If anybody comes in here and takes 1/10th of what they read on this board seriously enough to make money related decisions based on the posts here, they deserve everything they get.

[ranchwest]

My early years of handicapping were at Delta Downs. I haven't seen a live race there in several years, but what I saw in the past was well beyond the simple questionable acts. I saw with my own eyes very, very crooked dealings. No, not on every race. Not even real often. But, there were things that the people on this board probably would not believe.

It is well documented that Delta Downs had its own version of the Fog Jockey story presented here. Sylvester Carmouche, Jr. parked his horse for a lap and then finished 36 lengths ahead, breaking the track record. In a bottom of the rung claiming race -- somewhere around $2500 claimer. He couldn't receive much punishment because his share of the purse was so low that it was a misdemeanor. Later, he was charged with perjury, a felony that led to his long-term suspension. He is back riding, including having some major mounts.

Only once did I see jockeys openly give out advice in public. Every jockey in the race told the people along the fence to bet a particular horse. I raced to the window to bet another horse because I felt they were all lying. I picked the wrong one, but the one the jocks touted lost.

One night, I saw all of the horses bunch on the backside and every horse in the race move off the rail so a crooked trainer's horse could move last to first and go on to win.

Those are the mild stories. I won't go into the wild ones on this board. Most of you would be calling me a liar. Yes, it was that bad.

[kitts]

Well, folks, it used to be worse. And at major tracks. There were those that questioned the credentials of the group that got the Oak Tree Meeting for the period of time in October there was no racing in Southern California. And I recall questionable incidents at Hollywood Park. But the champion at flagrant deception was the Caliente racetrack. I was there once to participate in their 5-10 pool (the Pick 6 had yet to be invented and this was close to it-picking the most winners in races 5-10) and the last race of the day (the 11th or 12th) was about to be run and it was getting dark. By the time the race went off, spectators could see nothing. But at the finish, the big light flashed so the picture could be taken. I was at the finish line and clearly saw the two digit number of the winner-#10. Then we waited for the Official word. The toteboard showed the winner as the 3 and the 10 was nowhere-ran out!

[TonyK@HSH]

JustRalph

It's good to know that you have no failures when it comes to handicapping. There are many of us reading this board that wish we could say the same. I wish you continued success.....but

you initial note clearly implied some larceny, a finish that nobody could see..a 43-1 shot being named the winner even though he didn't finish the race..there being hush hush time so Clinton's injury could not be annouced...enough said about this one.

Now onto the MOST important point. I DO believe readers of the board are influenced by posts and that they make money related decisions based on them. For example, I've seen numerous posts about software being purchased becaused it was recommended on the board. If some reaches into their pocket to the tune of $400-$500 for software based on a post that is significant!! Just the same, individuals can make (maybe erroneouos) assumptions about tracks/jocks or anything else. If we think our posts are not taken seriously...I think we're mistaken.

I believe our fellow users deserve better than 'they deserve everything they get' as you put it.

Good luck

Tony

Originally posted by JustRalph
I didn't say I didn't make any money there. I actually did make some. My dad made more, but I quit playing Penn after he died. He liked the track. I didn't say they anticipated a fog bank? The point was that in the video they showed, nobody could tell and the announcer said that as they closed in on the finish line. I question whether they should have been running. Hell they lost a horse........and rider. On the race replay they even made a point that they were trying to make out the saddle cloths, but you could see those nice big dark objects whisking through the fog. I guess the jocks got together and decided who came through first. Or maybe a steward standing on the line. Either way I didn't trust it at all. I watched the video over and never saw the winner come through. I also got an email from someone else that night who said he didn't see him either. We were at the mercy of the camera though. I am not sure even where the field was in the race and I am not sure the camera people were either.

I can tell you this, It wasn't foggy the night they chased the horse clear around the track and back, put him in the gate and off they went. Everybody saw that one........ I don't know of many other tracks where 9 jocks have been indicted for race fixing either. I agree with the earlier point of staying away from of the small tracks for these reasons. Oh yeah, a motive for story telling? what the hell are you talking about? Blaming my failures on the track? Who the hell do you think you are? You think I place blame for failures......on the board here? BTW I don't have any failures at Horse racing, what the hell makes you think that? I commented based on the original question asked on the thread. What the hell makes you think that reading my comments is going to make someone else lose a chance to make money? You think someone is going to skip Penn because they read something on this board? And why would my comments be any different than when someone else makes comments about smaller tracks in general? If anybody comes in here and takes 1/10th of what they read on this board seriously enough to make money related decisions based on the posts here, they deserve everything they get.

[sq764]

Was the Carmouche story the one where he waited around the turn and only went around once while everyone went around twice? I think that's actually quite funny (of course if I bet against him I wouldn't have)

I find it funny that most people (myself included) agrees that races are fixed, some that is. But even though we are certain that not all races are honest, we keep coming back for more.. I guess we are to blame as well..

[cj]

If we waited in life to do things that were 100% honest, we'd be very bored and spend a lot of time at home. JMHO!

CJ

[so.cal.fan]

CJM....LOL....you got that right!

[Dave Mark]

This is a very interesting subject and you could write about it until the end of time, and still never cover it all.

It is true that when big money is at stake, you will find all kinds of games, and deception.

Phila Park, Penn National, and the highest grade track that I believe to be most crooked is Hollywood.

Years ago my father introduced me to a jockey, who was thrown from his mount, and could never ride again due to injuries. He told me the following.

Most times a race is fixed, it is to keep a certain horse from winning, NOT for a certain horse to win.

Many times the horses that run poorly in seemingly all their races, are there to try and keep others from winning.
The jockeys will purposely use their horse to bump into another, cut close, force wide, and the best, use his horses full out energy to force an early speed type from wiring the field. (Called Suicide bunch), and many other tricks to stop a certain horse from winning.

Yes! the ones who keep another out of the race are paid off! More than you might think.

[ranchwest]

Originally posted by sq764
Was the Carmouche story the one where he waited around the turn and only went around once while everyone went around twice? I think that's actually quite funny (of course if I bet against him I wouldn't have)

I find it funny that most people (myself included) agrees that races are fixed, some that is. But even though we are certain that not all races are honest, we keep coming back for more.. I guess we are to blame as well..

I wasn't there the night of the Carmouche Fog race, but I believe it was at a mile. Delta Downs is a 6 furlong track, so a mile race is run from a chute that merges to the home stretch, then one time around. Carmouche took his horse out of the gate and parked at the end of the chute. He waited until he heard the other horses in the fog and took off. Unfortunately for him, he really took off too soon and came in too far ahead and with too good of time. One of the jockeys reported not seeing him in the lights the first time under the wire.

I don't think very many races are fixed to the extent of really having extreme intent to influence the race. Of course, there's always things like putting the horse on the track for a tune-up and such as that. The casual fan has a lot of difficulty figuring out which horses are running for the purse and which are running for the exercise. Shoot, sometimes that's difficult for more experienced players. That's why this is a game of percentages and margins. To make a profit, you have to understand that sometimes you are going to lose.

[rrbauer]

I've never subscribed to the crooked track/rigged race theories on an ongoing basis. There have been the famous "fixed" races with jocks holding horses and ringers entered that got below the stewards' radar. What I look for is consistency in race outcomes as it relates to the expected outcome based upon my handicapping; and, based upon the publics' handicapping as measured by the betting. When things start happening that I can't make a case for, then perhaps I'm the problem. But, when the public can't make a case for what's happening either, then there is some other problem. Maybe it's random. Maybe it's embedded at that particular venue. Whatever the case, my rule is: If I can't make a case for what's happening at a track/meet then I look elsewhere for my action. Currently, my avoidance list is topped by NoCal races!

[kenwoodall]

Answer- any track E. Coa is at!!!

All tracks are crooked in that all morning lines are made by wild guessing, especially many overlays at 5-1 to 10-1 and on favorites.
Ca tracks are bad for digging up the track to slow the favorites down. Wed at Bay Meadows favs won 6 of 8; Thurs 0 of 8! They dug up the track and still listed it as Fast and Firm!
Of course since i bet show it did not matter as favs were 7 of 8 show Wed, 6 of 8 show Thurs!
I do not mind tracks or trainers cheating because i know almost all the fixes. At BM one trainer's horse's 5f worke improved 4 4/5 seconds in 2 weeks!!