The religion of peace

[luv_america]

and don't forget tolerance.

Here's a video of the members of the religion of peace blowing up the Madrid train station two years ago killing hundreds of innocent commuters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIN7bz15Z-4

[DJofSD]

It's the religion of submission.

Does the concept of free will exist in Islam?

[46zilzal]

having deep roots in the Southern U.S. I used to hear these same blanket statements about all African Americans. Hmmm seemed to be called PRE-JUDGING then. A taught phenomenon applicable to weak and uneducated minds.

[luv_america]

no 46, we're judging them by their actions. Please look at the video and watch innocent people get blown up and burned to death who didn't judge anyone.

Is anyone evil in your mind?

[46zilzal]

no 46, we're judging them by their actions. Please look at the video and watch innocent people get blown up and burned to death who didn't judge anyone.

Is anyone evil in your mind?
individuals did that, not a religion

[luv_america]

What religion are those persons ALWAYS from 46?

(Please don't give me the abortion clinic diversion, you know what I mean)

[46zilzal]

they could all come from Latvia but that doesn't make all Latvians terrorits. I work with a large number of Muslim nurses. Never once feared for my life.

[Dave Schwartz]

here we go...

[luv_america]

lets not forget tolerance.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/226/226549_muslim_cleric_backs_execution_of_gays.html

I'd assume from this they're against gay marriage.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Obviously dealing with U.S. based muslim female nurses, vs. the husbands of muslim women (nurses or otherwise) on non-U.S. soil is two completely different things. Obvious to most of us, anyway.

First thing in the morning

U.S. miltary training - shit, shower & shave

Liberal anti-all-war activist - Post/spout shit. Rest is personal option.

[46zilzal]

Obviously dealing with U.S. based muslim female nurses, vs. the husbands of muslim women (nurses or otherwise) on non-U.S. soil is two completely different things. Obvious to most of us, anyway.

First thing in the morning

U.S. miltary training - shit, shower & shave

Liberal anti-all-war activist - Post/spout shit. Rest is personal option.
ah yes another with a scripted closed mind

[Steve 'StatMan']

I'm not U.S. miliatry, past or present. I just know shit when I see it. Intentional nonsense meant in a poor attempt to deceive. For the mere joy of pissing others off.

[46zilzal]

but what on earth would the clowns at the helm do without a boogey man to point to? It is a very old political ploy. Hell even the Romans did it to get support to destroy Catharge several times in the Punic wars.

[Steve 'StatMan']

If they run out of the subway tunnels, jump on the platform and yell "Boo!" I'll think of them as Boogeymen.

When they kill tens and hundreds at plotted random, with no strategic plot to gain physical control, I'll know they're terrorists.

(If any group makes an organized attack to gain physical control for further action organized action, that's the work of an army.)

[luv_america]

Steve, everyone who doesn't agree with 46 has a closed mind. Mine is VERY closed.

[46zilzal]

Steve, everyone who doesn't agree with 46 has a closed mind. Mine is VERY closed.
nope, they just buy into the popular beliefs without ever evaluating their merit.

[GameTheory]

nope, they just buy into the popular beliefs without ever evaluating their merit.Or they evaluate their merit, and then buy into them.

[46zilzal]

Or they evaluate their merit, and then buy into them.
that would be much more logical but rarely happens. Can't be different now!

[luv_america]

yes, 46, you are the only one that its smart, righteous, peaceful, knowledgable, and an all around good-guy here.

I move for a statue.

[46zilzal]

never said or promoted that, but I am one of the minority who questions things.

[luv_america]

Lets get this thread back on track.

It was about the video of MUSLIMS killing INNOCENT commuters in Madrid that just released.

46, said it was not his nurse friends. We've established that. I do notice that 46 never denounces these things, just things Bush does.

[Light]

650,000 Iraqi MUSLIMS dead as a result of our invasion. 1.2 MILLION MUSLIMS KILLED as a result of U.S. brokered sanctions prior to that. Approxametly 2 MILLION MUSLIMS killed by U.S. forces either directly or indirectly. And they're the terrorists? And they dont have a right to be pissed off? And they dont weep when their loved ones get killed? In the meantime,keep justifying the deaths of Muslims. I believe the oppressors allways use similar arguments to keep their conscience clear. Patriotism,classism and security.And history has repeatedly showed they were wrong. You want to weed out the symtoms but not the cause, which you support. You're wasting your time.

[46zilzal]

Lets get this thread back on track.

It was about the video of MUSLIMS killing INNOCENT commuters in Madrid that just released.

46, said it was not his nurse friends. We've established that. I do notice that 46 never denounces these things, just things Bush does.

here you pick one:
denounce
support
be indifferent

Did any of those stances change a thing? No

[TRUEFREEDOM]

having deep roots in the Southern U.S. I used to hear these same blanket statements about all African Americans. Hmmm seemed to be called PRE-JUDGING then. A taught phenomenon applicable to weak and uneducated minds.

Did you vote for Jimmy Carter ?

[46zilzal]

I wrote in Mickey Mouse in 1968

Just finished reading Carter's book on the major morality shift in the U.S.

[Steve 'StatMan']

Did you vote for Jimmy Carter ?

46 has told us left the U.S. sometime in the late 60's-early 70's and is a doctor in Canada.

[luv_america]

While we're all arguing with 46, lets not forget the bomb that Light threw out here.

Lets start here. From your statstics (which I don't believe), which for this argument we'll assume is true, is it correct to assume that your opinion is that the US is to blame for those deaths?

[Steve 'StatMan']

Keep in mind that we proved that Light, while supporting the Palastinian & Muslim causes, often gets information from websites operated by/or infulenced by, David Duke.

You can take portions of quote that anybody makes, Google/Browser search them, and see where the come from, and who else uses the same quotes.

One of the amazing things I learned about the internet by questioning the stuff I see posted here in Off Topic.

[luv_america]

Steve,

For the record, I know those numbers are bogus. Its where Light's mind is at that's more important. I'm assuming that he believes that the US is at fault for millions of deaths around the world. Its my favorite argument against liberals because its just way too absurd.

He must have gotten that post from a "cook" left-wing blog site. I read them as a replacement for the funny pages.

[ljb]

http://www.pamspaulding.com/graphics/phelpsweb/P5050025.JPG

[luv_america]

ljb, what's your point? I don't recall Christians blowing up trains and office buildings.

[Steve 'StatMan']

And the overhelming majority of us mainstream christians can't stand these idiots either.

Of course, those idiots can't stand mainstream christians, or anyone else not in their group, frankly.

[Secretariat]

I guess luv, I have a problem with the whole premise of your post. You seem to be blaming the religion rather than the extremists. Correct me if I'm wrong? By this analagy because Timothy McVeigh was a Christian and ws upset about Koresh and Ruby Ridge, he speaks for Christianity? I don't think so.

If your premise was correct, and that the relgion of Islam is evil, and a religion of non-peace, why would this administration agree to allow Iraq to make Islam a cornerstone of it's constitution. Why would we even go in and care if Muslims voted since the religion they practice is "evil"? If everyone who practices Islam is a terrorist or evil, then why does GW declare we have to fight for the people of Iraq? After all they practice Islam?

You seem to be indicting the religion, rather than to the extremists responsbile. Timothy McvEigh was a Christian, Jim Jones was a Christian, Koresh was a Christian. Are these guys representative that Christiantiy is an evil religion? Or everyone who practices it is a terrorist or a pervert? Of course not. To attack the religion while we are supposedly defending people who practice the religion makes your point one dimensional and bigoted. The problem is NOT the religion, the problem is the extremists who use the religion to strike out at those who they belive have oppressed or used people of their faith. As I stated before, labeling all of Islam as eveil only incites violence. The Pope found that and was smart enough to apologize. Hopefully, you wil do the same. I am surprised that someone who supports GW so much seems to be at odds with him on this. He has said that Islam is a beautiful religion. Why do you not agree with him?

[PaceAdvantage]

As I stated before, labeling all of Islam as eveil only incites violence. The Pope found that and was smart enough to apologize. Hopefully, you wil do the same.

That's more intellectual dishonesty on your part. The Pope "labeled" the RELIGION OF ISLAM as EVIL? When? Where? Where's that link?

Where is that audio of the Pope saying "Islam is Evil!" Where is the photocopy of the letter the Pope wrote saying "Islam is EVIL!"

There is no such thing, right Sec?

And which Pope are you referring to....I assume it is the current Pope, and I assume you are referring to the incident where he was merely reading some text from an ancient conversation, trying to make a point that religion is about the spirit not the body

[luv_america]

Sec,

I will never apologize.

Muslims blew up the trains. Muslims blew up the Trade Center. Muslims blew up Kings Cross (a week after I was there). Muslims behead the enemy.

I'm NOT saying the Muslims are evil, or that all Muslims are terrorists. I merely mentioned that "Islam is the religion of peace". Well until this faction is eraticated, surely it is not.

Lastly, I prefer to look my enemy in the eye, especially one who wants me dead because I don't believe in his god.

[Light]

For the record, I know those numbers are bogus.
we proved that Light, , often gets information from websites operated by/or infulenced by, David Duke.


And you get your information from right wing lunatics. The 650,000 Iraqi dead was a well advertised piece of news a couple of weeks ago. The study was made by the very reputable John Hopkins University.

The 1 million Iraqi dead from sanctions was another well advertised piece of news that was acknowldeged by Madeline AlBright on 20/20 a few years back.

Please dont try to pigeonhole me with that David Duke crap. As I have said countless times to all who try to use that tactic on me,prove those statements wrong.Its not about DD. Its about the statements.All I hear is silence...silence....the ignorant cannot speak the truth.

[Tom]

Sec - put up or shut up. The Pope NEVER said that. And you know it.
And Tim McVeigh never sadi he did it for christinality. Big difference there Sec.

But then, if you thought Letterman mad O'Rielly look bad, I guess that explains it. :lol::lol:

"As I stated before, labeling all of Islam as eveil only incites violence. The Pope found that and was smart enough to apologize."

But for the sake of argument, your statement says it all.....it proves muslems are intolerant, evil, nuts, brain dead, uncivilized, whatever you call it., If printing a cartoon or quoting a book brings on violence, how can you possibly defined islam?

[dylbert]

Did you vote for Jimmy Carter ?

Jimmy Who? Personally, I thought his brother, Billy, would have made much better leader.

[Secretariat]

That's more intellectual dishonesty on your part. The Pope "labeled" the RELIGION OF ISLAM as EVIL? When? Where? Where's that link?

Where is that audio of the Pope saying "Islam is Evil!" Where is the photocopy of the letter the Pope wrote saying "Islam is EVIL!"

There is no such thing, right Sec?

And which Pope are you referring to....I assume it is the current Pope, and I assume you are referring to the incident where he was merely reading some text from an ancient conversation, trying to make a point that religion is about the spirit not the body

sigh...you miss the entire point of my post...

Here's what the Pope quoted,"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Now, since Muhammad is theri equivalent ot Jesus, imagine if we said: "Show me just what Jesus brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

THere's be an outrage by every Evangelical in the country. It was interpreted by Muslims as saying Muhammed, their prophet was EVIL.

But this is NOT the point of post. The point of my post was Luv wants to blame the religion of Islam. My point is that GW says Islam is a beautiful religion. Why is he so against GW Bush? And if Luv is against Islam, why does he have our men fight to preserve a constitution in Iraq that has Islam as its fundamental tenet...If Islam is "evil", then why shoudl we care about the islamic people of Iraq since they are "evil practicers"? Why does he disagree with President Bush on this?

[Secretariat]

Sec,

I will never apologize.

Muslims blew up the trains. Muslims blew up the Trade Center. Muslims blew up Kings Cross (a week after I was there). Muslims behead the enemy.

I'm NOT saying the Muslims are evil, or that all Muslims are terrorists. I merely mentioned that "Islam is the religion of peace". Well until this faction is eraticated, surely it is not.

Lastly, I prefer to look my enemy in the eye, especially one who wants me dead because I don't believe in his god.

I want that faction eradicated too. I want Bin Laden dead. I want Zawahari dead. We're not so different on that.

But we're talking mostly Wahhabism, not all of Islam, and of Wahhabism only the most extreme elements. It is the dominant form of Islam in Saudi Arabia, Qatar and recently Western Iraq. Most of the 911 terrorists were Saudis, followers of Wahhabism. I want the extremists of this sect punished, not all of Islam. You have attempted to paint all of Islam as evil. PA calls me intellectually dishonest. Frankly, to me, this is what is intellecutally dishonest, and does not address the true enemy - Bin Laden and his followers. When you blame all of Islam you are doing a disservice to all of Islam and diverting attention away from the culprits who struck us on 911.

I am well aware who the enemy is. He is here below, and here is one of his reasons below:

"The ordinary man knows that [Saudi Arabia] is the largest oil producer in the world, yet at the same time he is suffering from taxes and bad services. Now the people understand the speeches of the ulemas in the mosques--that our country has become an American colony. They act decisively with every action to kick the Americans out of Saudi Arabia. What happened in Riyadh and [Dhahran] when 24 Americans were killed in two bombings is clear evidence of the huge anger of Saudi people against America. The Saudis now know their real enemy is America." - Bin Laden [From The Washington Post 8/23/98]

Some here seem confused.

This is an excellent FAQ by USA today:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/islam.htm

[Tom]

The Pope did not say that - he QUOTED it. Surely, you, of all people know what a quote is. But then again, you though Letterman looked good, so that explains it! :lol:

No reply to my comment about the reaction of islam????

[JustRalph]

yeah right. That was all Wahhabbi types dancing in the street on 9-11......throwing candy and chanting "Death To America"

[Secretariat]

Sec - put up or shut up. The Pope NEVER said that. And you know it.

Why did he put that quote in Tom? And yes, it did insult many muslims. Just as when an Ayatollah quotes something that insutls Christians or Jews. Bottom line he did apologize. This was not the point of my earlier post.



And Tim McVeigh never sadi he did it for christinality. Big difference there Sec.

No, but he was associated with right wing Chirstian militias according to te FBI.


http://www.newswithviews.com/Briley/Patrick25.htm

CHRISTIAN IDENTITY" INFORMANTS INVOLVED IN OKC
Patrick Briley
April15, 2006
NewsWithViews.com

In April 1997 an FBI and a BATF agent interviewed a Mr. John Shults. The interview is recorded in an official FBI 302 interview report that has been obtained by a Freedom of Information Act request (FOIA). The image of the actual FBI 302 is presented at the end of this article.

John Shults revealed in his interview that he accompanied Chevy Kehoe to a meeting at Elohim City Oklahoma in 1994 with Timothy McVeigh and two other men having a German accent, one with the name “Andy”. Discussed at the meeting were white supremacy, militia movements, and “a delivery” that had to be made “very soon”. This delivery is likely the bomb components used to blow up the Murrah building.

“Andy” is likely to have been Andreas Strassmeir, a German national, in the US illegally and the military training officer at Elohim City. Strassmeir’s presence was well known to the US State Department, FBI (Louis Freeh personally) and CIA who inserted him illegally at Elohim City in 1989. Witness statements and phone records show that McVeigh called Strassmeir at Elohim City a few days before the OKC bombing.

Elohim City was a white supremacist compound heavily infiltrated by the FBI and informants from the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). Elohim was established in 1983 as a major site for the Christian Identity (misnomer) movement.

Other FBI documents, court records and witness statements support Shults allegations about McVeigh being at Elohim City."

I don't want to rehash McVeigh, except to say that there are extremist terrorists who are Christians like McVeigh, or Eric Rudolph.



"As I stated before, labeling all of Islam as eveil only incites violence. The Pope found that and was smart enough to apologize."

But for the sake of argument, your statement says it all.....it proves muslems are intolerant, evil, nuts, brain dead, uncivilized, whatever you call it., If printing a cartoon or quoting a book brings on violence, how can you possibly defined islam?

It does prove many are overly senstive to comments, but surely you can see why they became upset with the Pope's comments.

As to defending Islam, President Bush has done it regularly, why cannot I? I am amazed yourself, JR, luv are so in oppostion to the Commander in Chief on this issue. Are you becoming libs?

[Tom]

Sec, no offense, but what a bullshit post- you totally re-wrote whtat happened. Why did the Pope say it? It is the context of a discussion - or don't you muslems allow that anymore?
He did not apoligize for saying it, he apologized if he offended anyone. Wrongly so, IMHO. Screw them - I prefer to offend muslems. There is a major difference between being upset and going wild like they did, Why is it that you are always on the side of the mad muslems and always against the USA? And don't say you don't - case in point, today. luv_ is upset about 9-11 and other terror attacks, and says someting derogetory about muslems, and you wnat him to apoplogize. The muslems get upset by the Pope having a dicussion, riot, destroy, kill, act like mad dogs, and you area right there running to to thier defense. Maybe you you should be on the Sadam Hussien defense team.

And trying to paint McVeigh as the same as the jihad air heads is just plain ludicrous.

Which one are you in the Letteman photo?????


Get real, dude.

[Secretariat]

Why is it that you are always on the side of the mad muslems and always against the USA? And don't say you don't - case in point, today. luv_ is upset about 9-11 and other terror attacks, and says someting derogetory about muslems, and you wnat him to apoplogize.

I'm against those who attacked us on 911 and are a part of that organization. I want them punished, but I am not going to condem all of Islam because of this extremist sect. Neither does GW. The hero of the right. Finally, something we can agree on.

I still find it unbeleivable that you guys want to stay in Iraq to create an Islamic democracy, but yet consider all muslims the same. Honestly, please explain that paradox.

[Tom]

Would an explanation be easier for yo to understand if I presented as a Top Ten list? :lol:

[dav4463]

How can anybody with a right mind defend Islam? Islamic terrorists are the at the bottom of 99% of all the evil in the world. Why can't people see that? It is unbelievable!

[DJofSD]

How can anybody with a right mind defend Islam? Islamic terrorists are the at the bottom of 99% of all the evil in the world. Why can't people see that? It is unbelievable!

Would you be making the same statement if this was 1943? Why make it now?

[Secretariat]

How can anybody with a right mind defend Islam? Islamic terrorists are the at the bottom of 99% of all the evil in the world. Why can't people see that? It is unbelievable!

Maybe you're right. How could anybody in their "right mind" defend Islam?

http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/ramadan/islam.html

"Islam brings hope and comfort to millions of people in my country, and to more than a billion people worldwide. Ramadan is also an occasion to remember that Islam gave birth to a rich civilization of learning that has benefited mankind."

President's Eid al-Fitr Greeting to Muslims around the World
December 4, 2002

"America treasures the relationship we have with our many Muslim friends, and we respect the vibrant faith of Islam which inspires countless individuals to lead lives of honesty, integrity, and morality. This year, may Eid also be a time in which we recognize the values of progress, pluralism, and acceptance that bind us together as a Nation and a global community. By working together to advance mutual understanding, we point the way to a brighter future for all."

Presidential Message Eid al-Fitr
December 5, 2002

Some of the comments that have been uttered about Islam do not reflect the sentiments of my government or the sentiments of most Americans. Islam, as practiced by the vast majority of people, is a peaceful religion, a religion that respects others. Ours is a country based upon tolerance and we welcome people of all faiths in America."

Remarks by President George W. Bush in a statement to reporters during a meeting with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan
The Oval Office, Washington, DC
November 13, 2002

[Tom]

Well there ya go - he is obviously lying - as you say he does every day!

[dav4463]

President Bush is being politically correct just like everyone else. Of course he can't say Islam is evil...it would offend too many people.

Fact is though, almost every single terrorist attack in the past 40 years were carried out by Islamic people. If it is such a religion of peace, why all the terrorism?

[Secretariat]

President Bush is being politically correct just like everyone else. Of course he can't say Islam is evil...it would offend too many people.

Fact is though, almost every single terrorist attack in the past 40 years were carried out by Islamic people. If it is such a religion of peace, why all the terrorism?

Poltically correct? Maybe once, twice, but multiple times and posted on the whitehouse website?

btw...were Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols Islamic?

[hcap]

No major religion is good or evil. The practisoners decide. Christianity has had its version of lunacy as well. The Inquistion promoted and carried out by the official decrees of the church killed, tortured, maimed and excilled thousands and thousands.

Not the "fringe" or fundamentalists at that time but the mainstream church.

From Wiki..

"García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000. Applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700--about 2%--the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed. However, it is impossible to determine the precision of this total, owing to the gaps in documentation, unlikely that the exact number will ever be known."

From Answers

In the Middle Ages, a judicial procedure that was used to combat heresy; in early modern times, a formal Roman Catholic judicial institution. Inquisito, a Latin term meaning investigation or inquest, was a legal procedure that involved the assemblage of evidence and the prosecution of a criminal trial. Use of the procedure against the heresies of the Cathari and Waldenses was approved by Pope Gregory IX in 1231. Suspected heretics were arrested, interrogated, and tried; the use of torture was approved by Innocent IV in 1252. Penalties ranged from prayer and fasting to imprisonment; convicted heretics who refused to recant could be executed by lay authorities. Medieval inquisitors functioned widely in northern Italy and southern France. The Spanish Inquisition was authorized by Sixtus IV in 1478; the pope later tried to limit its powers but was opposed by the Spanish crown. The auto-da-fé, the public ceremony at which sentences were pronounced, was an elaborate celebration, and the grand inquisitor Tomás de Torquemada was responsible for burning about 2,000 heretics at the stake. The Spanish Inquisition was also introduced into Mexico, Peru, Sicily (1517), and the Netherlands (1522), and it was not entirely suppressed in Spain until the early 19th century."


Weren' the american settlers and pioneers predomintly christian?

http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

Quotations:

"The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard.

"This violent corruption needn't define us.... We can say, yes, this happened, and we are ashamed. We repudiate the greed. We recognize and condemn the evil. And we see how the harm has been perpetuated. But, five hundred years later, we intend to mean something else in the world." Barry Lopez.

"By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated....Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law." Peter Montague

[luv_america]

The moral equivalence comparisions of Christianity to Islam relative to
terrorism are offensive and wrong. They show why we can't trust you to
run this country, and why you will NOT defend it. You have NO ability
to disern right from wrong, nor will you ever confront EVIL until EVIL
has overrun your politically correct institutions.

Thank God I have faith in the American people (yes, the Christians and
Jews that you hate so much) to defend this country so that people like
you can spew this waste.

Thankfully, we can all sit here and watch Europe deal with their
Islamic problem (France, Germany, and Spain especially) in a
politically correct manner. When they get defeated because they won't
stand-up to the enemy, we can learn from their mistakes. Fortunately
for the Dutch, they've decided that they can't take it anymore and are
addressing it with policy, the French (and the media) however won't
admit that its the Muslim youth who are burning Paris to the ground.

[Secretariat]

No major religion is good or evil. The practisoners decide.

This is a good point.

We've had our share of recent terrorists as Iws trying to point out to dav who came from a non-Islam and Christian-Judeo background, or even used Christian ideas for terrorism.

Ted, Kajinsky, the Unabomber
Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols, Oklahoma City
Eric Rudolph, Olympic bomber and Gay nighclub bomber
James Charles Kopp, Abortion doctor killer

There are many more - abortion clinic bombings, Posse Comitatus, the Klan, the violent Christian Identity group of which McVeigh attended meetings, the IRA in Northern Ireland, the Freedomits, the Army of God.

We've had not religious terrorism most notably from the Mob.

We've had Islamic terrorism as well no doubt, but most Muslims have not committed terrorist acts, as most Christians and Jews have not committed terrorist acts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

http://archives.cnn.com/2001/LAW/12/12/jdl.arrests/

"Federal authorities Wednesday charged two leaders of the Jewish Defense League with conspiring to blow up Arab and Muslim institutions in southern California, including the offices of Arab-American congressman Rep. Darrell Issa.

Irv Rubin and Earl Krugel were taken into federal custody following late Tuesday raids by members of an antiterrorism task force, said Thom Mrozek, a spokesman for U.S. Attorney John S. Gordon.

"When you target innocents based on religious or political affiliation or belief, we consider that terrorist activity," Gordon said. "

...

Then of course there is Meir Kahane,whose ideology believed that a Jewish Democracy with non-Jewish citizens is contradictory because the non-Jewish citizens may someday become the majority and vote to make the state non-Jewish. He, among others (such as author Joan Peters), believed that a Palestinian people do not exist, regarding Palestinians as disparate and unrelated Arab clans with no distinct ethnic identity.

In 1994, following the massacre in the Ibrahim Mosque by Kach (Kahane's ideology along with Kahane Chai - Kahane was also the founder of the Jewish Defense League) supporter Dr. Baruch Goldstein, the Israeli government declared both parties (to be illegal terrorist organizations[9] [10]. The U.S. State Department also added Kach and Kahane Chai to its list of Foreign Terrorist Organizations. Providing funds or material support to these organizations is a crime in both Israel and the United States.

....

My point is terrorism spreads across all religions. It depends upon the zealotry of the its practitioners as Hcap states. To single out one group doesn't tell the whoel story Dav.


.................................................. .............................................

" Let me issue and control a nation's money, and I care not who writes its laws."

Meyer Rothschild International Banker

[luv_america]

Sec,

You should keep defending the terrorists and using mentally derranged nutjobs like McVeigh to represent Chirstians. Your attempt at moral equivalence is noticed and many of us are offended.

We know where you stand. You are noble.

Of course, in the US its OK to offend conservatives and Christians.

Good job.

[Secretariat]

Sec,

You should keep defending the terrorists and using mentally derranged nutjobs like McVeigh to represent Chirstians. Your attempt at moral equivalence is noticed and many of us are offended.

We know where you stand. You are noble.

Of course, in the US its OK to offend conservatives and Christians.

Good job.

Please list one post where I have ever defended terrorists. Are you denying that McVeigh, Kajinsky, or especially Rudolph were Christians? I agree McVeigh is a nutjob, so is Bin Laden. I defend neither.

Stop misstating what other people say.

[JustMissed]

"
really die? The Oklahoma City Bombing
Connection to
the WTC Attack


Pentagon Report Reveals Multiple
Blasts in Oklahoma City Bombing
According to the March 20, 1996 issue of Strategic Investment newsletter, a classified Pentagon study confirms that the Oklahoma bombing was caused by more than one bomb. A classified report prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City in April 1995 was caused by five separate bombs. The two experts reached the same conclusion for the same technical reasons. Sources close to the Pentagon study are reported to have said that Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot."
We reported in Freedom Network News at the time that seismograph readouts at the University of Oklahoma indicated more than one blast impulse. Independent ordnance experts, including a Navy Commander, unanimously agreed that a car-bomb with low intensity fertilizer explosives could not have inflicted such extensive damage to the building and that it was highly likely that high-intensity explosives had been wired directly to the columns. Our suspicion then as now is that it was an "inside job." But by whom is the mystery. Strategic Investment reports that the multiple bombings had a Middle Eastern "signature." Others find the whole business to be extremely fishy because of the fact that no ATF or FBI agents were in their offices at the time of the blast [about 9:05 a.m.] — and that evidence pertaining to both Waco and Mena had been stored there.


— Strategic Investment, 1217 St. Paul St., Baltimore, MD 21202-4799.


From Freedom Network News (June/July 1996, pages 5-6), the newsletter of ISIL, the International Society for Individual Liberty, 1800 Market Street, San Francisco, California 94102, tel: (415) 864-0952, fax: (415) 864-7506"

Interesting that the report says the bombings had "a Middle Eastern" signature.

Common sense tells me that a U-Haul truck full of fertilizer could not have blown up that building.

[luv_america]

No Sec, I cannot defend your hatred of the people of this country. You want to blame everyone else but the people who are actually causing many of the problems we face in this world. They are Islamic (Muslim) Fundamentalists. Muslims are responsible for 16 of the 17 active world conflicts right now, because no matter where they are in the world, they cannot co-exist with themselves or their neighbors.

The issue attached to this is why the Fundamentalists gain wide support from run of the mill Muslims. Until they stand up and help stamp out this cancer in places other than Iraq, as far as I'm concerned, they're all guilty.

I wish this weren't so. I know plenty of good Americans who are Muslim. I don't blame them, but I recognize that as a whole, their religion is responsible for much of the world's suffering.

You use the BS that Christianity a million years ago had smilar issues. It may all be so, but GUESS WHAT SMART GUY, Christianity, much like the rest of humanity evolved and reformed. THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN FUNDAMENTAIST CHRISTIANS AND ISLAMIC TERRORISTS. Until you recognize that, you are the enemy, and we should do everything in our political process to ensure that people like you never have the power or responsibility to protect us.

Your views are sad.

[hcap]

luv_You use the BS that Christianity a million years ago had smilar issues. It may all be so, but GUESS WHAT SMART GUY, Christianity, much like the rest of humanity evolved and reformed. THERE IS NO MORAL EQUIVALENCE BETWEEN FUNDAMENTAIST CHRISTIANS AND ISLAMIC TERRORISTS.
I raised issues of past events. Notably the Inquisition and the piss poor treatment of the American Indian. There is a moral equivalence here. And the semi-genocide of the Indian was not a million years ago. And more recently we can point to the lynchings of blacks by southern "christians".

Hey the "rapture" arose as a fringe theory. The Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox do not accept it, but followers believe that the first people of the book the Jews are doomed to eternal damnation. Go figure So maybe no moral equivalence here, but remember to tell all your Jewish friends "sorry guys time is up"

From wiki...

Although not having any importance in mainstream christianity, the term is associated with teaching of John Nelson Darby and the rise of premillennialism and dispensationalism in the United States at the end of the 19th century.

BTW, during the Spanish Inquisition when all dose european good guy christians were burning Jews and Moors and each other at the stake, Islam was enjoying a golden age co-existing with Jews And Christians peacefully.

Go check out the discussion on the Christian Man beaten thread

http://paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30786&page=8&pp=15&highlight=christian

I am not going to repeat everything. Its been done already
You will also find extensive links to those mainstream Islamic organization that have denounced extremist terrorism.

[Secretariat]

No Sec, I cannot defend your hatred of the people of this country. ..

In other words you couldn't find one post where I defended terrorism. See luv, I fought for this country as others here have. I don't like to even talk about it, but it pisses me off when bigoted, intolerant snobs accuse me of defending terrorists when I have never done or said any such thing. It irks me when your hatred of an entire religion blinds you to accuse me of defending terrorsits (which I have never defended) and yet you give GW Bush a free pass despite him basicaly saying the same thing about Islam on the whitehouse web site about Islam that I have.

You're a newcomer here, and I've listened to your posts declaring yourself as some one who is well liked here. But what I've seen from your posts is a fearful, bigoted, intolerant, mis-stating excuse for an American if I've ever seen one. At least if you're going to accuse someone here of something, post your proof when asked. Now you've got me resorting to name calling, and for that I apologize.

[luv_america]

Sec,

Now if you could get as mad at our enemies as you are of me, we'd be making progress.

People like you DEFEND terrorism by making excuses for it in your attempts at moral equivalence. George Bush is NOT the bad guy. Christians and Jews (as you call them "neocons") are NOT the bad guys. Islamists, their co-horts, and their apologists who enable them are. You hurt the situation and DEFEND terrorism by trying to persuade people that we're the bad guys.
Again, this is why we won't trust you to defend us.

Also, you're mad, because you guys are finally get an argument around here. Its not your private little Daily Koz anymore. Sorry I crashed your party.

[hcap]

Attention luv_

No one is "defending terrorism"
No one is calling Christians and Jews "neocons"
Nor is anyone enabling Islamic extremists.

Gee do ya think they read off topic in a horse racing board?
I can just imagine --

"yeah achmed, hcap is raising my spirits
and thanks be to Sec for those "enabling" words.
But let's get the new neocons, ya know luv_ ,
True_
And grando_
:lol:_

[luv_america]

hcap,

Its people who THINK and VOTE like you do that do all of those things.

As far as Christians and Jews are concerned, you guys write more crap about them then you do the Islamists. And yes, "neocon" is an anti-semitic liberal code word for "Jew". Just read Koz and DU for more understanding of that.

[luv_america]

Sec and hcap,

BTW, if you don't want an argument, don't post stuff we're gonna argue. You guys aren't the only opinion in town anymore.

Until then.....

[Tom]

Poltically correct? Maybe once, twice, but multiple times and posted on the whitehouse website?

btw...were Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols Islamic?

No, Ergo, the use of the word "almost."

[Tom]

Please list one post where I have ever defended terrorists. Are you denying that McVeigh, Kajinsky, or especially Rudolph were Christians? I agree McVeigh is a nutjob, so is Bin Laden. I defend neither.

Stop misstating what other people say.

You are lumpiing criminals into the terroist mold - they do not fit.
The unifbomber was not trying to destroy the christians or America, the abortion doc was not out on a jihad This very post is one I point to where you are defending terroists by trying to dilute the magnitude off thier evil by downgrading it to feloneous actions. If you don't see the differences, you hafe serious perception problems.

My perception of you is you ALWAY race to defend the enemy.
If I made a list of friends of Amercia and enemies, which side do you think I would put your name on?

[Secretariat]

Sec,

Now if you could get as mad at our enemies as you are of me, we'd be making progress.

People like you DEFEND terrorism by making excuses for it in your attempts at moral equivalence.

Not at all. I simply believe the best way to avoid war is to understand the root causes of your enemy, rather than be a reactionary such as you. Reactionary is partly why we're in this mess in Iraq, and partly why the war was mismanaged. See Luv I believe war is the last option, not the first as you do.


George Bush is NOT the bad guy.

Of course he's not a bad guy. He just has made bad decisions, and is pushing bad policies for America.


Christians and Jews (as you call them "neocons")

Another mis-statement. sigh...Go back and read the wilkepedia site to understand.



Christians and Jews (as you call them "neocons") are NOT the bad guys. Islamists, their co-horts, and their apologists who enable them are.

Islamists are not the bad guys. Certain Islamists are bad guys. Let's get this understood. You want to attack whole religions, or think I'm attacking whole religions. I'm critcizing people and policies, NOT everyone who lives in Iraq, or everyone who professes to be a Muslim. You are incredibly blinded by your hate of Islam that you want to attack a whole religion rather than the indivudals who perpetrated terrorist acts. Even the President defends Islam. Is he an enabler of Islamists? You haven't commented on that.


You hurt the situation and DEFEND terrorism by trying to persuade people that we're the bad guys.

Whoa, whoa whoa....there you go again. I have never defended terrorism and you still have NOT posted any post I made EVER where I have defended a terrorist act. NEVER. I said we have to understand the root causes which creates these conditions or we'll be in perpetual war. Use your brain.


Again, this is why we won't trust you to defend us.

I already have defended you. Why don't you enlist and defend us for a change?


Also, you're mad, because you guys are finally get an argument around here. Its not your private little Daily Koz anymore. Sorry I crashed your party.

lol...there's always been arguments around here long before you got here....just ask Tom or JR or Lefty or PA or Isbets or Elkabong...they've been here long before you got here....I didn't realize this was a party. Perhaps, you better put the booze down and sober up a bit. :D