2007 DRF racing expo

[1st time lasix]

I noticed that the DRF is beginning to advertise their upcoming three days of seminars at the Wynn in Las Vegas. In February 2004 they had approx. one hour taped sessions with various commentators and authors like: Quinn, Davidowitz, Cardello, Stitch, Cramer, Liftin, Crist, Bain, Meadow, Mazur, Free, Welsh, Beyer, et al. They actually set up a mini race book right in the main convention room. Also had a handicaping contest on the final day which I didn't attend. {caught the flight back east instead} Topics were on bias, trip handicapping, breeding, grass racing, drugs, form cycles, speed figs etc. I gave the actual expo a passing grade {c plus} for what it was.....but it was not excellent. Difficult to get in depth when a panelist or two is sitting in front of a diverse crowd for an hour. Lots of stupid questions. Lots of generalities. Maybe they will improve it this time???? Did have a good time in Vegas though.....":cool: "what happens in Vegas....."

[the little guy]

Not sure if one would consider this an improvement but I am scheduled to be on a panel this time.

[beertapper]

is there a webpage up for the expo, or was it in a print ad?

[twindouble]

Not sure if one would consider this an improvement but I am scheduled to be on a panel this time.

I for one would concider you being equal to or a cut above the others, regardless of what you think of me and you can take it as a compliment. Yes, you can still be my pain in the ass, wouldn't expect any less. :D


Good luck,

T.D.

[toetoe]

Good for you, tlg. A little East Coast bias is always welcome. :D You will be perilously close to the Toe-Light Zone. Beware. :eek:

[cj]

Not sure if one would consider this an improvement but I am scheduled to be on a panel this time.

Oh, so you are the guy intoducing me, cool!

[the little guy]

Oh, so you are the guy intoducing me, cool!

That's great.

I thought I was only carrying your bags.

[JimG]

Oh, so you are the guy intoducing me, cool!

:lol::lol:

[the_fat_man]

I noticed that the DRF is beginning to advertise their upcoming three days of seminars at the Wynn in Las Vegas. In February 2004 they had approx. one hour taped sessions with various commentators and authors like: Quinn, Davidowitz, Cardello, Stitch, Cramer, Liftin, Crist, Bain, Meadow, Mazur, Free, Welsh, Beyer, et al. They actually set up a mini race book right in the main convention room. Also had a handicaping contest on the final day which I didn't attend. {caught the flight back east instead} Topics were on bias, trip handicapping, breeding, grass racing, drugs, form cycles, speed figs etc. I gave the actual expo a passing grade {c plus} for what it was.....but it was not excellent. Difficult to get in depth when a panelist or two is sitting in front of a diverse crowd for an hour. Lots of stupid questions. Lots of generalities. Maybe they will improve it this time???? Did have a good time in Vegas though.....":cool: "what happens in Vegas....."

Just a question here, and no disrespect to anyone:

We've touched on this in another thread and I'm not sure we hammered out exact definitions

but

how many of the above are actually making a living at the game?

In other words, their primary income is from handicapping.

Now, if you're at the top of your field and you want to conduct an EXPO

one would think that you'd want top of the line presenters

and, in fact, DRF has secured all the 'NAMES'

only problem, is that most of them are either

1) selling figures

2) selling programs

3) selling books

4) working for DRF

etc.

I understand that these guys would be stupid to not take advantage of other money making opportunities

but couldn't DRF dig up some NO NAMES that actually make a living, solely, handicapping?

Now, let me ask everyone to HEEL

cause

I'm not looking to bash or confront

I'm just wondering why there are either

1) NO ACTUAL PRO's out there
2) NO VISIBLE actual PRO's
3) NO COMMERCIALLY MINDED ACTUAL PRO's
4) NO POSING ACTUAL PRO's

In fact, if I were to take him at his word, DRUGS should be on that panel, as a winning handicapper.

Hell, TWIN is more of a pro than most of the guys on that panel.

[the little guy]

It's a question of earned credibility. Saying someone, we can use DrugS in this case, is a professional does not make him one. The people on the panels have earned some sort of credibility in the industry, and whether you or I like their thoughts is not relevent. What is relevent is they are names that draw people to attend and also sell the corresponding DVDs of the conference.

Believe me, I would have loved to have had DrugS on the panel with me at Siro's, but nobody knows who he is, and you have to maintain at least some level of established credibility. Does everyone have to get a start somewhere? Of course, but in the case of the Expo DRF chooses to use people who have already earned their credibility. If you, or anyone, isn't interested in what they have to say in no way should you choose to listen.

[shanta]

I'd listen to:

Beyer
Free
Davidowitz

The 2 I really would want to hear are:

"The Hat" - The best at what he does. Still kicks ass at 75 years young. Leaves folks shaking their heads ( Beyer comes to mind who Jim really likes a lot)

Paul Mellos - this was 1 cool dude the time I met him. What the heck happened to him?

Next:
Drugs
CJ

[Tom]

When you look at other fields - medicine, industry, retailing, etc, headliners usually are selling books, services, consulting, pakaages, or something.
Would you consider Donald Trump not a professional if he were to conduct a how to seminar and sell a book at it?

[point given]

with the Fat Man. I would prefer to hear from those hidden pros who make a living at it and areNOT well known. Unfortunatley, today, those who are recognizable get the ink. Promotion and marketing has overwhelmed substance IMHO. In my career, I have attended many educational conferences. I have gained immeasurably from others presentations. These are regular professionals who have walked the walk, as well as talked the talk. Toon often, we get carried away with hearing presenters who just talk the talk. It is canned pablum for those easily impressed by name recognition. Think of it as akin to hearing a famous band who have performed the same set ad infinitum. Then there is the undiscovered band, who few have heard of, but really rock. Who would you rather hear ! Chalk or longshot ! :cool:

[The Hawk]

Just a question here, and no disrespect to anyone:

We've touched on this in another thread and I'm not sure we hammered out exact definitions

but

how many of the above are actually making a living at the game?

In other words, their primary income is from handicapping.

Now, if you're at the top of your field and you want to conduct an EXPO

one would think that you'd want top of the line presenters

and, in fact, DRF has secured all the 'NAMES'

only problem, is that most of them are either

1) selling figures

2) selling programs

3) selling books

4) working for DRF

etc.

I understand that these guys would be stupid to not take advantage of other money making opportunities

but couldn't DRF dig up some NO NAMES that actually make a living, solely, handicapping?

Now, let me ask everyone to HEEL

cause

I'm not looking to bash or confront

I'm just wondering why there are either

1) NO ACTUAL PRO's out there
2) NO VISIBLE actual PRO's
3) NO COMMERCIALLY MINDED ACTUAL PRO's
4) NO POSING ACTUAL PRO's

In fact, if I were to take him at his word, DRUGS should be on that panel, as a winning handicapper.

Hell, TWIN is more of a pro than most of the guys on that panel.

This is a very valid point. The people most bettors want to hear from are the people who are making money betting everyday, not talking about how to do it, and failing themselves.

The industry should be promoting THESE people, much like the poker industry does with the big tournament winners. I HATE poker, but I know a handful of names of guys who make their living playing poker. Should be the same with racing, at least if those guys wanted to be known. Not the guy from the wealthy family who can spend his life at the track no matter what he loses. Not the guy who claims he wins annually but keeps no records, and is actually losing large sums, or the guy who made it all on a huge windfall and is slowly bleeding it back into the pools. Publicize the professional horseplayers, who make their living at the game. Maybe then racing wouldn't be viewed by so many as a sucker's game at which no one can win.

There will be some things to learn, I'm sure, but you can learn as much by listeing to enlightened people on this board, I'd bet.

[The Judge]

It's a time for "US" to get together and have a good time . Don't need to learn thet much but would love to meet the certain people that are named in the industry.

[the little guy]

This isn't the Poker World and the vast majority of people who ACTUALLY make real money in this game would NOT be interested in speaking at this, or any, seminar.

And, sorry, but " I make money playing the game " is not an acceptable resume to prove success.

[PlanB]

Where & When is this conference. If possible, I will book tomorrow.

[the little guy]

I feel like it is the beginning of March...maybe the first Thursday through Sunday. Not sure however.

[kingfin66]

I'll throw my $0.02 in here. I also don't wish to inflame, incite, offend, etc. The point I wish to make is that even if there were some "real" professional horseplayers out there who wished to be on the Panel, they could not do it.

First, in order to be up on stage on a panel, you have to be able to overcome a natural fear of public speaking. Even if you can get past that, you have to organized and articulate for the information that you are trying to convey to make sense.

Now I'm not saying that horseplayers are not intelligent or that they are uneducated. Okay, I guess I kind of am. Let's face it, the people on this sort are in the top 1% or so of the high tech end of the handicapping and information spectrum.

What the guys like Beyer, etal have going for them, in addition to the credibility that TLG was speaking of, is a way of getting their info across by speaking, or via the written word. There are lots of good horseplayers, but very few who can do what those guys do.

[njcurveball]

Good thought Kingpin! Does a great player make a great teacher? I would guess the greatest hitting coach in baseball history to be Charlie Lau. In fact he was so revered his son was hired to teach White Sox Minor Leaguers how to hit.

I think he hit a cool 250 lifetime.

Greatest pitching coach may be Leo Mazzone. I dont think he even got a cup of coffee in the bigs.

Some guys can teach, others cannot. You need to judge the teacher by the students, not by their resume.

I once followed a guy named Howard Sartin to the windows at one of his seminars. This guy named Tom Brohamer had told him for 3 or 4 races about why he liked this horse. Sartin walked confidently to the windows and bet $4 to win and place.

Not much to be impressed with there, but the name Sartin may ring a bell. ;-)

Jim

[forecast]

I purchased the DVD's from the last Expo, and I have to agree, the content was not memorable. I feel the format must be changed, from panel discussions and general information, to the top speakers conducting classroom seminars and actually teaching their methods in great detail. The problem with the current format is that it plays to a general, middle-of-the-road horseplaying audience, instead of the well-informed, advanced handicappers playing this game for serious profit.

Here are some speakers and topics that I would be very interested in (James, I hope you're reading this): Bill Benter on designing a logit model tailored to North American racing. Jim Bradshaw on making a living matching horses with the racing form as your only information source. A soup-to-nuts description on database design, construction, testing, and implimentation as it relates to handicapping. A totally NEW pace handicapping methodology. There are too many interesting topics to list. The bottom line is: let's have something new to discuss and explore. Eliminate the speed figure, track bias, trainer stats, pedigree figures, etc., unless there are new and exciting developments to present.

Anyway, if anyone has the info, could you please post the link advertising the conference, so those wishing to attend can start booking? Thanks in advance.

[PaceAdvantage]

Well, if I were running DRF online advertising, I'd make sure I'd get a banner on this site promoting the expo....after all, we seem to have some interest here, without much hard info available yet.....

Combine that with my steady traffic flow (over 5 million Page Views a month...that's right....1 month) and dirt-low advertising rates ($2 CPM!!!!!) and you'd think they'd be beating down my door...

[JustRalph]

What the guys like Beyer, etal have going for them, in addition to the credibility that TLG was speaking of, is a way of getting their info across by speaking, or via the written word.

I would like to spend a day with Beyer. I think you put him in the wrong category. From the interviews I have seen with him (usually transcripts) he seems to be able to expound while thinking on his feet. I agree that some of the others seem more suited to the written word. But I have a feeling that if you were around him for a little while, you might find out he is much more like a regular horse player that I would expect to meet at any track. I know some guys on this board actually now him, and may disagree. But from what I have read, I think he might be more like me than some of the others. My 2nd choice for spending some time at the track with, would be Jay Cronley. The author of the book that "let is ride" is based on.

[the little guy]

Beyer is great to spend time with at the track. He's smart, funny, a total action junkie and always roots for you if he's not involved. He's got lots of opinions, usually bad, and he's never boring. He's a lot more fun at the racetrack than I am.

A couple of years ago I was sitting with Beyer and Harvey Pack at Saratoga and Beyer gave Harvey a late double play at Delaware....two by two. They got live after the first leg and when the horses came on the track for the final race Harvey realized he had, you guessed it, bet into an Apoloosa race.

Believe it or not....they won.

[kingfin66]

I would like to spend a day with Beyer. I think you put him in the wrong category. From the interviews I have seen with him (usually transcripts) he seems to be able to expound while thinking on his feet.

No, no, I'm actually with you on Beyer. I did not mean to imply that he would be boring. He is a semi-regular on my local sports talk radio station, KJR-950, appearing when big events approach. He is always very engaging and opinionated.

[Indulto]

This isn't the Poker World and the vast majority of people who ACTUALLY make real money in this game would NOT be interested in speaking at this, or any, seminar.

And, sorry, but " I make money playing the game " is not an acceptable resume to prove success.Perhaps you would share your "acceptable resume" as an example of what you mean by "earned credibilty" as well as the topic(s) of the panel(s) on which you will be participating.

I'm sure some bio will eventually be published for each panel member. Advance notice of that posted here might help you pick up attendees beyond your existing fan base.

[cj]

...They got live after the first leg and when the horses came on the track for the final race Harvey realized he had, you guessed it, bet into an Apoloosa race.

Believe it or not....they won.

That is a funny story. It was Arabians though, right?

[cj]

...and, in fact, DRF has secured all the 'NAMES'

only problem, is that most of them are either

1) selling figures

2) selling programs

3) selling books

4) working for DRF

I don't think the little guy falls into any of those categories. I can only hope he is going to cover trip handicapping with particular emphasis on bad rides by jocks!

[FUGITIVE77]

You're absolutely right, three of the four professionals I hang with would rather be locked in a room with Jerry Springer than speak before an audience. Most do what they do and prefer to stay under the radar. As for the expertise of the panel, I'll never forget the time I was behind a noted Turf author, one who usually speaks at these expos and watched him punch a two dollar box on two 3-1 shots.........Of course, maybe he was just making a fun bet for his mother............................................ ................

[JimG]

Good thread. Seems to me that pen and paper handicappers will be well represented. I would like to see an area devoted to computer use in horse race handicapping with some people like Schwartz, Platt, Massa, Rosa, Purdy, etc. involved. Also, a section on handicapping tournaments would be nice.

Jim

[the little guy]

That is a funny story. It was Arabians though, right?

That's actually a MUCH funnier story that I decided not to tell.

[cj]

I only say this because I don't think they ever run appys at Delaware, just Arabians.

[1st time lasix]

Sometimes I feel I am in the dark ages when it comes to computers and information gathering at the the track. I go with Pace numbers/brisnet and DRF form in tow. I know many pros have laptops and home systems. Perhaps a panel by an efficient computer type can expain what they do and how they do it.

[twindouble]

I have a lot respect for those that put themselves in the public domain risking whatever credibility they have obtained regardless of how it come about. Being in the pubic eye isn't in my opinion the best place to be if your a true handicapper gambler. Noterioty brings contempt from the ignorant and likewise it's ignorant to put yourself above the common player and discount them as unworthy or having nothing to offer. Edward Demming proved that by turning Japan into a economic power house, whereas his ideas were rejected by Corporate America. (the big wigs).

There's no desire on my part to be in the public eye and I wouldn't qualify to begin with, hell I have trouble being understood here attempting to get my points across. Public handicappers have to have historical knowledge when it comes to racing and who's who in the upper class of the game. If they enjoy being there and are successful hats off to them. By the same token I enjoy were I'm at and I think its important to understand where you are in the game to be good at it. I always strived to improve "my" game, not to compete with others or be put in the lime light, that does nothing for my bottom line.

The guys we are talking about I'm sure are good people so my sights aren't trained on them, just the race in hand.

Good luck,

T.D.

[garyoz]

Good thread. Seems to me that pen and paper handicappers will be well represented. I would like to see an area devoted to computer use in horse race handicapping with some people like Schwartz, Platt, Massa, Rosa, Purdy, etc. involved.
Jim

Won't happen because they compete with the DRF products. Had a threaded discussion on this before the last expo. In an ideal world, such a session would be great if it were structured to be rigorous--including discussing the tough questions of reliability, validity, statistical problems of modeling, issues of backfitting in linear models, etc.

I have the tapes/DVD from both expos. The sessions too often consist of sales pitches concerning someones approach (speed figs, pace handicapping, etc.) without enough critical discussion. Some sessions are good, there was a great session on track bias that included the NYRA Track Super that was very interesting.

[njcurveball]

What is keeping HDW from having a seminar with all the people who sell their products?

The HTR seminar had 60 people from what I read. Put all the HDW products together and you draw a crowd of current users and others who are interested.

That would be the right group to show how to use a computer to handicap and there is built-in incentive, since they would be sure to gain some new customers.

The only one I have ever heard of turning away customers is CJ. Sartin use to say he would stop at 1,000, but then said it would have to be 1,000 regular winners.

I was actually shocked he "picked me" to sell KGen to. I thought it was going to be sold out. I was told I needed to win with the "beginner" programs before I even considered Energy.

I worked with them and was shocked (again) to find out the biggest loser in our group had purchased Energy! Sartin said he could win with that one, since he couldn't win with the others. (Head Scratcher, there!)


Jim

[the little guy]

I only say this because I don't think they ever run appys at Delaware, just Arabians.


You're right...it was Arabians.

[JimG]

The only one I have ever heard of turning away customers is CJ.
Jim

Jeff Platt has done the same thing with the wonderful program JCapper.

Jim

[The Hawk]

The only one I have ever heard of turning away customers is CJ. Sartin use to say he would stop at 1,000, but then said it would have to be 1,000 regular winners.

Jim

Monmouth Park-based "Bicycle Mike", who sells figures under the name "Colts Neck Data" for a few selected tracks, stopped accepting new members years ago, too.

You're absolutely right, three of the four professionals I hang with would rather be locked in a room with Jerry Springer than speak before an audience. Most do what they do and prefer to stay under the radar. As for the expertise of the panel, I'll never forget the time I was behind a noted Turf author, one who usually speaks at these expos and watched him punch a two dollar box on two 3-1 shots.........Of course, maybe he was just making a fun bet for his mother

That's the problem in a nutshell. But I'd say, find a couple of legitimate pros and throw enough money at them, either a portion of the gate and/or a share of DVD sales, and they'll overcome their stage fright in a hurry. We'll never know, though. It's easier to do it this way.

[njcurveball]

So far we have CJ, Bicycle Mike, and Jcapper as vendors who are not accepting new clients.


In a pari-mutuel system, there is no way that 3 different betting interests plus the public, sheets, rags, form, Beyers, HDW, Trackmaster, BRIS, et al could be that worried about the odds.

That is the whole point of it being pari-mutuel. Vendors can do whatever they want, but it doesn't make sense to turn away customers unless there is some other financial reward.

I have to say that I know one guy using Colts Neck data and he doesn't have the reputation of a winner, even though he is at the track every day.

Unless the data says EXACTLY who to play and EXACTLY how, different people will use it in many ways. Mix in 3 to 4 exotic bets in each race and the pool is spread many ways.

I wish everyone the best of luck. The system works great for me when people have strong opinions on their horses. Then I get better prices on mine.

Jim

[Overlay]

I applaud anyone who can come up with an effective means of rating or ranking horses, and I can certainly understand their reluctance to disseminate their information too widely in a pari-mutuel environment. But that fact highlights the dilemma that all handicappers can face when working with an objective of trying to pick "the winner" of a race, or evaluating performance factors as a go/no-go type measure, apart from the probabilities associated with them.

If you could get an accurate picture of each horse's true overall probability of winning (and especially if you did so by taking multiple performance aspects into consideration), you wouldn't have to worry about always having to come up with new individual angles or factors as old ones get overbet. And it wouldn't matter how widely the information was circulated, since, if the public became oversold on one or more horses, it would result in others becoming favorable betting propositions. The only way this type of approach could become obsolete would be the practical impossibility (in my opinion) of the public sending every horse in every race off at odds corresponding precisely to its true chance of winning.

It would be a win-win situation for all concerned, since it would provide greater returns for folks like CJ, Bicycle Mike, and JCapper through the elimination of the worry about excessive public knowledge, while not driving down payoffs for their clienteles. The main hurdle to clear would be the "traditional" handicapping mindset that starts from the premise that only one horse can win a given race, and therefore focuses exclusively on finding that one most likely winner, and betting it regardless of its odds.

[njcurveball]

If you could get an accurate picture of each horse's true overall probability of winning (and especially if you did so by taking multiple performance aspects into consideration), you wouldn't have to worry about always having to come up with new individual angles or factors as old ones get overbet. And it wouldn't matter how widely the information was circulated, since, if the public became oversold on one or more horses, it would result in others becoming favorable betting propositions.


Thanks Overlay, you said it much better than I did. If I am looking at 5 contenders and "price shopping", the main thing is to find the best price. There has never been a race, including match races, where the winner had 100% chance of winning.

[The Hawk]

To be fair, I think Bicycle Mike restricted users based on his computer program's inabillity to handle too many clients, rather than due to pari-mutuel concerns. Also, this was several years ago. He very likely updated the program, and he may well be taking on new customers today.

[Tom]

Computers never seem to get much light at DRF sponsored events. They ignore the cutting edge of handicapping.

I think Dave Schwartz, CJ, Richrosa, Jeff, Gametheory might be more interesting speakers than some of the usual suspects.

[betchatoo]

Computers never seem to get much light at DRF sponsored events. They ignore the cutting edge of handicapping.

I think Dave Schwartz, CJ, Richrosa, Jeff, Gametheory might be more interesting speakers than some of the usual suspects.
Now there's a seminar I'd pay $500 to go to

[Tom]

Now there's a seminar I'd pay $500 to go to

You can attend on-line here" www.paceadvantage.com

;)

[JustRalph]

Now there's a seminar I'd pay $500 to go to

A couple of years back there was actually talk of this happening.

Hello?

I can arrange a nice big room, with TVG, at my wifes restaurant 5 minutes or so from Cleveland Hopkins ..........hello.........anybody out there?

http://daveandbusters.com

[kingfin66]

Combine that with my steady traffic flow (over 5 million Page Views a month...that's right....1 month) and dirt-low advertising rates ($2 CPM!!!!!) and you'd think they'd be beating down my door...

How many uniques?

[Tom]

A couple of years back there was actually talk of this happening.

Hello?

I can arrange a nice big room, with TVG, at my wifes restaurant 5 minutes or so from Cleveland Hopkins ..........hello.........anybody out there?

http://daveandbusters.com

Got a map of Ohio somewhere around here......

[cj]

$500? Hell, all I need is some Carolina BBQ or a big soft pretzel under a tent at the Spa. No refunds!

[PaceAdvantage]

How many uniques?

Since I am only analyzing log files and not using cookies to track people, this number can be off either way, however, my modest log analyzer reports that from April to June of 2006 I had 656,823 visitors, averaging over 7,000 per day, spending an average of 703 seconds per visit and generating an average of about 24 page views per visit....

[BMeadow]

Below is the info from the DRF.com site. As far as I know, nothing is definite regarding topics and schedules yet. I suggested the following:
(1) Panel of full-time professional gamblers who are not selling anything but are full-time players with no other job
(2) Computer handicapping and computer research featuring non-DRF providers
(3) "Gambling underground" panel which would include info on exchanges, bookies, rebates, net pool pricing, offshore racebooks, head-t0-head (matchup) bets, etc.

It might still be possible to contact DRF with suggestions; however, keep in mind that the DRF is sponsoring the Expo, so competitors might not get much of a look (it would be hard to imagine a panel on How To Make $10 Million Using the Brisnet Power Ratings). Also, I have no more "pull" in getting topics onto the agenda than anybody else on the Pace Advantage site, even though I'm scheduled to be one of the speakers--so if you have ideas, please contact the Form directly.
================================================== ================================================== ================

This is from the DRF site:

Don't miss the 2007 Horseplayers Expo, a chance to meet and learn from some of the top handicappers, writers and horseplayers in the business. Join us at the fabulous new Wynn Las Vegas for 3 days of in-depth seminars and panel discussions, author book signings, cocktail receptions, banquet dinner and a handicapping contest. Horseplayers of all levels can benefit by attending this informative event.

Over 35 speakers will offer their thoughts on the topics most important to today's modern horseplayer, including:

Pace Figures
Betting Maidens and Developing Young Horses
Making Your Own Lines: Finding Hidden Value
Technology and the New Tools of Successful Handicappers
Polytrack
Attacking Racing's Biggest Days: Making a Year's Profit in a Day
Rebates: Who, What, Where, Are They Unfair, and Do They Harm the Casual Customers?
Playing to Win in the Tournaments
Handicapping Turf Races
The Supertrainers and the Simulcasts
Contrarian Thinking and Hidden Form Patterns
Late-Night Wagering: Harness, Quarter Horses and Greyhounds
Pedigree Handicapping
Exotic Betting: Multi-Horse and Multi-Track Wagers
Handicapping Claiming Races
New Imports: Japan, Germany, and Dubai
Back to Basics
*Topics subject to change


SCHEDULED SPEAKERS

Andy Beyer
Columnist
The Washington Post
Other speakers:
Caton Bredar
Jerry Brown
Toby Callet
Michael Dickinson
Brad Free
Len Friedman
Dan Illman
Ken Kirchner
Dave Litfin
Barry Meadow
Randy Moss
Harvey Pack
Jay Privman
Tom Quigley
Andy Serling
Alan Shuback
Ralph Siraco
Lauren Stich
Mike Watchmaker
and more

Note: List includes panelists, individual presenters, and moderators.



Mark Cramer
Author
Value Handicapping


Steven Crist
Chairman & Publisher
Daily Racing Form


Steve Davidowitz
Author
Betting Thoroughbreds


Jim Quinn
Author
The Handicapper's
Condition Book

[JustRalph]

Anybody schedule a Haircut (by a professional) for Crist Yet?

[point given]

Anybody schedule a Haircut (by a professional) for Crist Yet?


that there is a rumor floating around that there will be an intervention in Vegas, with steve being held down and shorn by BRIS handicappers ! The golden locks will be auctioned off to save NYRA. :jump:

[Red Knave]

$500? Hell, all I need is some Carolina BBQ or a big soft pretzel under a tent at the Spa. No refunds!Would I get a discount if I added some Dippin' Dots?? :D

[Tom]

I'll pay your way if your bring a keg of coffee again! :lol:

[Vigors]

If you're buying...get ready for Jamaican BLUE MOUNTAIN !!!!


Starbuck's my ass !

[fastCow]

There will be some things to learn, I'm sure, but you can learn as much by listeing to enlightened people on this board, I'd bet.

I would be interested in which people at this site your would recomend.

[cj]

I'll pay your way if your bring a keg of coffee again! :lol:

Man, do I miss those!

[The Hawk]

Off the top of my head (and I know there are others, but I'm in a rush):

PA, CJ, Suff, Gametheory, Valuist...

[1st time lasix]

For those interested......I was told that registration for the EXPO would be available this weekend. No word on the cost. Have a winning Breeder's Cup weekend everyone!

[jetermvpbaby]

If you are making nice money in this game, what incentive would you have to go public and let the entire world know that you are making a profit betting the races? Whats in it for you?

My attitude is that if i see someone on the panel talking about handicapping, i have to be skeptical if they actually win or not. I'm sure that someone on this panel must win, but do they do it as their sole source of income?

If you are NOT doing it as your only source of income, there's no proof you can really win if you had to. If you are making a bunch of money selling sheets or picks or other stuff racing related, you have enough income to where your bets are 'pressure free' you don't to win to eat, so you can bet differently, you can be more selective, etc.

Once that anonymous pro who's cleaning up behind the scenes comes forward, you have to ask yourself if he just USED to be good and now forgot how to win and thats why he's coming forward to become 'known'.

[FUGITIVE77]

I would like to hear from anyone who went to one of these expos more than once. I have no doubt to the expertise of many of the panelist, for me it's not if they are profitable or not but can they generate any new ideas. Years ago I purchased several expo audio tapes and was greatly dissappointed, it sounded like eight guys in a room who didn't do their homework hoping the moderator wouldn't pick them. Strictly freshman stuff, sort of like doing your 6th grade book report by reading the Classic Comic intead of the real book. Hope this expo is better.

[twindouble]

If you are making nice money in this game, what incentive would you have to go public and let the entire world know that you are making a profit betting the races? Whats in it for you?

My attitude is that if i see someone on the panel talking about handicapping, i have to be skeptical if they actually win or not. I'm sure that someone on this panel must win, but do they do it as their sole source of income?

If you are NOT doing it as your only source of income, there's no proof you can really win if you had to. If you are making a bunch of money selling sheets or picks or other stuff racing related, you have enough income to where your bets are 'pressure free' you don't to win to eat, so you can bet differently, you can be more selective, etc.

Once that anonymous pro who's cleaning up behind the scenes comes forward, you have to ask yourself if he just USED to be good and now forgot how to win and thats why he's coming forward to become 'known'.

Excellent points, the same can be said about all of us that give out advise here but I would like to think there's quite a few handicappers here that make money, maybe not getting rich but do a darn good job. Am I as good as I used to be, hell no! I'll be 66 soon and I don't live the game like I used to, I stay alive on my experiece alone. The fast pace of living the game is for the young, the only mistake they can make is to put those that have had the experience on a shelf like they don't exist. Worst of all, just pick on their lack of writing skills. :D


T.D.

[1st time lasix]

The cost is $400 dollars if you book early. Obviously many will be coming from all over the US .....so there will be airfare, food and a room at the Wynn in Las Vegas. The cost will be at least a grand. {assuming no other expenses or gambling losses :D } As far as negative skeptical discussion about "experts" panelists that qualify to talk because they may or may not play all the time and win money... I say "relax fellas" Who cares? .....no one....and i mean no one.... wins ALL the time in a para-mutual game with such an onerous takeout. If someone tells you that they win 100% of their racing sessions by any method or any means....they are a true liar with an ego problem suffering from dillusions. It seems to me that the key is to win enough over time to cover all the bad beats or inevitable losing streaks. To gamble "within" yourself. Everyone can chose how to do it and at what level. That is one of the beautiful aspects of handicapping. Hopefully we all can learn and evolve to get better in order to win at a higher percentage with a better ROI by gaining experience and improving your methods. No reason that this experience cannot come from others......it can speed your learning curve. I will be attending again because I may get something out of it. If not....it will still be fun because i enjoy the debate and the joy of the hunt. The food, drinks, golf, racebook and female scenary is pretty good too. Remember I started this thread by saying the last DRF Handicapping Expo was just ok. {certainly not great} Hopefully it will be better this time but it won't make you an instant success in this game from that day on. I did meet an intelligent guy there at some of the seminars who became a friend. We now do good business together two years later. I enjoyed meeting Davadowitz, Litfin, Cardello and Tomlinson too. .

[the_fat_man]

Excellent points, the same can be said about all of us that give out advise here but I would like to think there's quite a few handicappers here that make money, maybe not getting rich but do a darn good job. Am I as good as I used to be, hell no! I'll be 66 soon and I don't live the game like I used to, I stay alive on my experiece alone. The fast pace of living the game is for the young, the only mistake they can make is to put those that have had the experience on a shelf like they don't exist. Worst of all, just pick on their lack of writing skills. :D
T.D.

That's exactly right, there's too much work involved in playing the game the right way. It's alot easier to sell info or numbers or whatever. Unless, of course, you happen to be the WIZARD, and go 0 for the Breeders Cup --how in the world can someone go 0 for the cup?

The joke is on me, of course, as the WIZ is raking it in hawing his picks.

So, any number of reasons suffice for doing anything other than playing the game seriously:

1) too old (Twin)

2) too fat (me)

3) too lazy (me, again)

4) ..........


This has been beaten to death but why in the world would anyone go to a conference to get advice from those NOT making a LIVING at the game.

The only venue I can think of where the PSEDUO/QUASI pro (or flat out amateur) is preferrable to the PRO would be your local (or otherwise) BORDELLO.

[Tom]

From what I understand, based on previous events, some presentations go on at the same time, so you don't get to attend them all.

Save your money and buy the full set of tapes for half the cost later on. Listen at your leisure.

[delayjf]

Perhaps we could resurrect the PA Seminar at Saratoga next year. How about a west coast swing through Vegas or DeLmar.

[WJ47]

I'd love to go to this! I bought the DVD set from the last Expo and it was excellent. It would be great to hear Andy Beyer speak in person.