Beyer quotes Nick Mordin about Polytrack

[highnote]

I like Nick Mordin's books alot. Beyer quotes him in this recent article...

http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=79722&subs=0&arc=1

What does Polytrack have in common with grass? Nick Mordin, author of books about handicapping in England (where Polytrack originated), offered an explanation that sounds logical.

"When a horse pushes back with his hind legs against dirt," Mordin says, "some of the surface slides away from his hooves and produces kickback. But Polytrack produces almost no kickback at all. It is a more securing footing, similar to grass."

Mordin says horses with shorter strides and a low center of gravity are better suited to the slippery nature of dirt, whereas long-striding horses favor Polytrack and grass.

The similarity between Polytrack and grass has manifested itself in a crucial way at Keeneland.

[the_fat_man]

I like Nick Mordin's books alot. Beyer quotes him in this recent article...

2 possible ways to approach this:

1) undertake a PROTRACTED study of horse stride with the goal of eventually becoming proficient at picking out the short-striding horses (either in the paddock, on tape, etc.)

2) realize, BROADLY, that since there's (relatively) NO KICKBACK,
horses will now be DRAFTING (GEE, what a novel notion; maybe it's not about the stride:bang: afterall) and POLYTRACK races become alot more like turf races.

Let me think about these options for a while. :D

[robert99]

UK polytrack does suit turf horses and suits horses coming from behind just as well as closers. The only bias is in the jockey's heads. The UK polytracks are very tight and it is the relative frequency of turns and short straights that does not suit galloping (high geared) long striding horses, not the surface. The one right handed polytrack does not help those that lead on the left. UK polytrack also has no kickback but plenty of cushion and traction.

[highnote]

UK polytrack does suit turf horses and suits horses coming from behind just as well as closers. The only bias is in the jockey's heads. The UK polytracks are very tight and it is the relative frequency of turns and short straights that does not suit galloping (high geared) long striding horses, not the surface. The one right handed polytrack does not help those that lead on the left. UK polytrack also has no kickback but plenty of cushion and traction.

Almost every North American grass course, save Belmont and Woodbine, are built inside the main dirt course. Often these inner turf courses are 7 furlongs in length with tight turns. You would think a long striding horse would not be suited to these either. However, the long striders do well because the early part of the race is run at a moderate pace and then the horses pick it up in the final turn and then sprint to the wire. The grass must be more tiring than dirt, so horses have to conserve their energy until the end and try to finish with a burst of speed. Dirt racing requires a horse to get an early tactical position near the front and then decelerate the least. Sometimes "turf style" runners can close if the early pace is too swift.

It sounds to me like Polytrack must be more tiring than dirt. Because it is more tiring jocks realize they have to conserve energy early -- like on turf.

[robert99]

Almost every North American grass course, save Belmont and Woodbine, are built inside the main dirt course. Often these inner turf courses are 7 furlongs in length with tight turns. You would think a long striding horse would not be suited to these either. However, the long striders do well because the early part of the race is run at a moderate pace and then the horses pick it up in the final turn and then sprint to the wire. The grass must be more tiring than dirt, so horses have to conserve their energy until the end and try to finish with a burst of speed. Dirt racing requires a horse to get an early tactical position near the front and then decelerate the least. Sometimes "turf style" runners can close if the early pace is too swift.

It sounds to me like Polytrack must be more tiring than dirt. Because it is more tiring jocks realize they have to conserve energy early -- like on turf.

S,

This has all been discussed at length on other threads.
If the USA jockey bias on turf is like that then any horse can win from those type of pace shapes.
Horses do not conserve energy during racing - they have varying levels of inbuilt immediate stores and in-racing released stores. As long as the toxins have not tied up their muscles at the end of a race, then it is a question of the energy needs exceeding the energy available. A slow early pace enables the majority of horses to compete at the finish with a random result.

Dirt in general is far more tiring than turf as so much energy is wasted with dirt's relatively poor traction. I posted some individual horse 1 furlong sectionals on the early thread as examples on turf. Polytrack, in turn, is less generally tiring than turf as the cushion is elastic, it provides good traction, the track is even and level, and there is no kickback - all reduce energy wastage. Top UK jockeys tend to ride it from the front but the rest tend to hang around waiting for someone to take the lead. They look very foolish when the top jockey does just that and wins comfortably.

[highnote]

S,

This has all been discussed at length on other threads.
If the USA jockey bias on turf is like that then any horse can win from those type of pace shapes.
Horses do not conserve energy during racing - they have varying levels of inbuilt immediate stores and in-racing released stores. As long as the toxins have not tied up their muscles at the end of a race, then it is a question of the energy needs exceeding the energy available. A slow early pace enables the majority of horses to compete at the finish with a random result.

Dirt in general is far more tiring than turf as so much energy is wasted with dirt's relatively poor traction. I posted some individual horse 1 furlong sectionals on the early thread as examples on turf. Polytrack, in turn, is less generally tiring than turf as the cushion is elastic, it provides good traction, the track is even and level, and there is no kickback - all reduce energy wastage. Top UK jockeys tend to ride it from the front but the rest tend to hang around waiting for someone to take the lead. They look very foolish when the top jockey does just that and wins comfortably.

Very interesting. Thanks!

[the little guy]

Belmont's turf courses are inside the main/dirt track.

[highnote]

Belmont's turf courses are inside the main/dirt track.


My mistake. You're absolutely correct. Duh.

I was thinking one thing, but I wrote another. What I meant to say was... most if not all turf courses in the US are 7 furlongs. I think Belmont's main turf is longer than most because it is inside of a mile and a half dirt oval.

Thanks for pointing out that error.

[the little guy]

I assumed that's what you were thinking but I would argue that " most " courses are not 7F. I would say many are closer to a mile being inside 1 1/8 dirt ovals ( like Saratoga, Aqueduct, Gulfstream and I am guessing the West Coast tracks ).

Personally I'm not smart enough to know if the size of the course makes a difference.

[46zilzal]

Personally I'm not smart enough to know if the size of the course makes a difference.
it does, no nag can get a head of steam up at Chruchill like they could do at Saratoga, Woodbine, Arlington or Belmont. Why do you think the Euro's go to those course so much?

[JustRalph]

anybody catch that 100 dollar horse at Keeneland today (10-26-06 Thursday)in the first race? something else.........

I can't believe what this placed has turned into. race after race a wall of closers breaks thru and comes down the stretch.........

I bet there are some people at keeneland who are standing around in a meeting after this meet, wondering what the hell they have done?

[kenwoodallpromos]

anybody catch that 100 dollar horse at Keeneland today (10-26-06 Thursday)in the first race? something else.........

I can't believe what this placed has turned into. race after race a wall of closers breaks thru and comes down the stretch.........

I bet there are some people at keeneland who are standing around in a meeting after this meet, wondering what the hell they have done?
______________________
I think I see your point, but looking st today's charts I see winners at 1st call tops about 6 back, 2nd call 3 1/2 back; I see bunched up horses and 4 of the 1st 5 dirt winners did the 4f at about 48 or less. I just do not see mush early or lone speed today.