View Full Version : Frontline's The Lost War in Iraq
Secretariat
10-19-2006, 05:42 PM
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/yeariniraq/
Frontline’s “The Lost Year in Iraq” should be watched. Excellent and extremely informative as well as very disturbing.
An interview with the Director:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/10/16/DI2006101600400.html?nav=rss_nation/special
46zilzal
10-19-2006, 05:44 PM
saw that show: how to piss off everyone and make things a lot worse. Left hand not knowing what the right hand was doing.
Steve 'StatMan'
10-19-2006, 08:23 PM
"This was was underwaged and fought too politically correctly, to cater to Viewers Like You."
Generous Support Provided by:
moveon.org
Michael Moore
and the National Democratic Party
Thank You!
This Is PBS.
JustRalph
10-19-2006, 08:59 PM
is it the "lost war in Iraq" or the "The Lost year in Iraq"
You guys cheering for our loss is despicable
POS on PBS.
Sec, your defeatist attitudes is deplorable.
Help me out here fellows. Does your criticism of Sec mean you think the war in Iraq is going well ?
Secretariat
10-19-2006, 10:10 PM
Don't worry LJB. They didn't even see it, but are experts on it. They don't know that Frontline interviewed - Bremer, Garner and almost entirely administration or CIA officials.
Lefty
10-20-2006, 01:12 AM
The war is not lost yet and cannot be lost by our miltary. It can only be lost by the media and cowardly dems.
betchatoo
10-20-2006, 06:00 AM
The war is not lost yet and cannot be lost by our miltary. It can only be lost by the media and cowardly dems.
.It's being fouled up by an incompetent Commander and Chief and his advisers who had no idea what to do once they gained their first objective (taking Baghdad) and were not then hailed as conquering heroes by the populace. They were warned by their own people that we needed more troops and a solid exit strategy. Stop blaming the Dems for your idol's incompetency.
.It's being fouled up by an incompetent Commander and Chief and his advisers who had no idea what to do once they gained their first objective (taking Baghdad) and were not then hailed as conquering heroes by the populace. They were warned by their own people that we needed more troops and a solid exit strategy. Stop blaming the Dems for your idol's incompetency.
I caught the very tail end of it last night. I surfed into it actually.
You want to believe your government. I think we all do. I want the best for my country, my fellow citizens, and my neighbors. Regardless of anything, least of all political affiliation.
But I'm watching Paul Bremmer, ( who was Rumsfeld's and Bush's man on the ground).... And Bremmer says that when he was leaving Iraq he knew he failed....and that things were so bad that :
when he was scheduled to leave IRAQ on a C-130 , they duped the press into a false exit. They went to the C-130 and smiled and waved. He even got on the C-130. When the press and dignitaries left, he got off the C-130 and got on an Armed Military Helicopter.
Bremmer was in tears on the Helicopter....( it was all filmed)....Because he knew he failed and Iraq was a mess. The road to the airport was not even safe....
George Bush then gave Bremmer the highest Civilian award. The Presidential Medal of Freedom. In a rose garden ceremony Bush and Bremmer continued the charade. A charade that devalued the White House, The President, The Medal and more importantly, Our Men and Women on the ground in Iraq.
Another thing I'd like to share.....It was not in the show. Electricity which was continuous in Baghdad prior to our invasion, and was on intermittently 10-14 hours a day the first two years....is now down to 2-4 hours a day in Baghdad. :bang:
MikeDee
10-20-2006, 09:50 AM
Whenever a large group of people share a common belief and are willing to die for it you will never be able to defeat it militarily.
History is full of examples of this, the American civil war, the French revolution, the rise of Communism in Russia, the fall of Communism in Russia, Vietnam, to name a few.
They live there, they are not going anywhere, they have nothing to lose and nothing better to do. The only way to win is to kill every single person who shares the belief, this will never happen, we can't even figure out who is the enemy.
Think about this for a minute. What if a foreign power was able to attack our country, win the war, and occupy our country. Would what we do? Just accept it? Not hardly. we would fight, by blowing up their vehicles and sniping them at every opportunity. We would call it the resistance and they would have to kill us all to put down the resistance.
We can hate them and hate everything they stand for but is what they are doing so different from what we would do if the situatiion was reversed?
It does not matter if we stay there 10 more months or 10 more years, the result will be the same. Some day we will leave, the organization that has the most believers and the best organization and structure will win out and set up a government to their liking.
The only question that remains is how many Americans must die before our leaders decide that enough is enough and we should leave.
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 10:54 AM
The war is not lost yet and cannot be lost by our miltary. It can only be lost by the media and cowardly dems.
and you don't live in a dream world?
Ponyplayr
10-20-2006, 11:18 AM
Suff said.."Another thing I'd like to share.....It was not in the show. Electricity which was continuous in Baghdad prior to our invasion, and was on intermittently 10-14 hours a day the first two years....is now down to 2-4 hours a day in Baghdad. :bang: " Is this a problem? The sectarian violence was all but non-existent for the first two years and then all hell broke loose. If we give them electricity now they will use the light to build IED's. Darkness is our friend..
By Kevin Tillman
Editor's note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.
It is Pat's birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice... until we get out.
Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can't be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.
Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few "bad apples" in the military.
Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It's interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
...
Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don't be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that "somehow" was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat's birthday.
Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Snag... save your breath. Because he isn't writing a book.
[QUOTE] " Is this a problem?
Not for you.
The sectarian violence was all but non-existent for the first two years and then all hell broke loose.
Not true. Bremmer left two years ago.
If we give them electricity now they will use the light to build IED's. Darkness is our friend..
I chuckled a couple of years ago when Freedom and progress in Iraq was described as:
"Hey , they have Cell Phones and Air conditioners"
That would be good if they owned GE and Verizon I suppose, but has little to with Freedom.....or progress. ( except in the twisted logic of predatory capitalist's)
Lefty
10-20-2006, 11:27 AM
and you don't live in a dream world?
We have the most powerful military in the world. It can't be defeated. It wasn't defeated in Vietnam and can't be defeated in Iraq. What defeats us is the defeatest media consisting mostly of libs that report only the worst things and turn the people against the govt. In WW11 FDR censored the press. After Vietnam and now Iraq we know why.
twindouble
10-20-2006, 11:40 AM
and you don't live in a dream world?
Our military has yet to lose a battle, including Vietnam. When it comes to Iraq the only way the Iraqi people can win is to stop killing each other and set us free to fight the war we should have been fighting right along and that's taking on Syria and Iran. The violence in Iraq will plummet. We have won all the battles we can win, using 150 thousand soldiers to police Iraq and ignoring those that are fueling the unrest is the dumbest thing I can imagine. :bang:
T.D.
Lefty
10-20-2006, 11:46 AM
.It's being fouled up by an incompetent Commander and Chief and his advisers who had no idea what to do once they gained their first objective (taking Baghdad) and were not then hailed as conquering heroes by the populace. They were warned by their own people that we needed more troops and a solid exit strategy. Stop blaming the Dems for your idol's incompetency.
Yet no Dem has a better strategy. Not Kerry, Not Hillary, not Gore and certainly no talking head lib pundits.
How do you know it could have been done any better? It's war and war is messy and unpredictable. I'm only blaming dem' for their hateful rhetoric. It's certainly went beyond criticism and borders on treason. Dems just cannot put politics aside and get behind the pres to win this thing. Despicable!
Just a few recent..(last few months) hand me downs from he'r leadar
"This morning my administration released the budget numbers for fiscal 2006. These budget numbers are not just estimates; these are the actual results for the fiscal year that ended February the 30th." (10/11/06)
"I think...tide turning...see, as I remember...I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of...it's easy to see a tide turn. Did I say those words?" (6/14/06)
-
"The United States of America is engaged in a war against an extremist group of folks." (8/15/06)
"And I suspect that what you'll see, Toby, is there will be a momentum...momentum will be gathered. Houses will begat jobs, jobs will begat houses."
(8/28/06)
Lefty
10-20-2006, 11:59 AM
suff, sounds better than "I did not have sex with that woman.'
Or "I could have given the tax surplus back to the people if i could be sure they'd do the right thing."
Or, on BET TV, "After all black people watch Tv just like reg people."
Or, about GH BUsh, "He's a Chamelion," only he pronpounced it Shamelion.
Suff, i don't worry about what GW says, I look at what he does. I like the economy fueled by the tax cuts and I like the fact we're standing up to terrorists and not standing by, just to be victims.
using 150 thousand soldiers to police Iraq and ignoring those that are fueling the unrest is the dumbest thing I can imagine. :bang:
T.D.
And who do you suppose is leading this effort ? Duh !
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 12:14 PM
Iraq Aims to Limit Mortality Data
Health Ministry Told Not to Release Civilian Death Toll to U.N.
By Colum Lynch / Washington Post
UNITED NATIONS, Oct. 19 -- Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki's office has instructed the country's health ministry to stop providing mortality figures to the United Nations, jeopardizing a key source of information on the number of civilian war dead in Iraq, according to a U.N. document.
A confidential cable from the United Nations' top official in Baghdad, Ashraf Jehangir Qazi of Pakistan, said the Iraqi prime minister is seeking to exercise greater control over the release of the country's politically sensitive death toll. U.N. officials expressed concern that the move threatens to politicize the process of counting Iraq's dead and muddy international efforts to gain a clear snapshot of the scale of killing in Iraq.
Here is a link to a current unfortunate event in Iraq. Dismal state of affairs. Has an interesting survey on bottom of story.
http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/shiite-militia-seizes-control-of-city-in/20061020073409990003?cid=2194
twindouble
10-20-2006, 12:25 PM
And who do you suppose is leading this effort ? Duh !
Read the dam post, why do you do that?? :bang:
Read the dam post, why do you do that?? :bang:
I read the damn post. The only point of the post was the last phrase which I quoted and made comment on. In a nutshell what you said is: Based on our abilitys, this operation is being run poorly. I agree.
twindouble
10-20-2006, 02:12 PM
Our military has yet to lose a battle, including Vietnam. When it comes to Iraq the only way the Iraqi people can win is to stop killing each other and set us free to fight the war we should have been fighting right along and that's taking on Syria and Iran. The violence in Iraq will plummet. We have won all the battles we can win, using 150 thousand soldiers to police Iraq and ignoring those that are fueling the unrest is the dumbest thing I can imagine. :bang: Quote TD.
Originally Posted by ljb
And who do you suppose is leading this effort ? Duh ! Quote Ljb;
Now read the post again, I assumed you were talking about who was leading the insurgency. Right? If you were refering to Bush leading the effort, I agree.
delayjf
10-20-2006, 02:48 PM
Think about this for a minute. What if a foreign power was able to attack our country, win the war, and occupy our country. Would what we do? Just accept it? Not hardly. we would fight, by blowing up their vehicles and sniping them at every opportunity. We would call it the resistance and they would have to kill us all to put down the resistance.
The difference is the US is not occupying Iraq, we liberated Iraq from a mad dictator who was funding Libya's nuclear program. Our intent is to give the Iraqis back their country to run as they see fit. We would like nothing better to leave. The questions is how do we do that. We know from history what will happen if the US does the "democrat thing" and cut and run, after all it worked in Vietnam and Somalia.
Yet no Dem has a better strategy.
No it's not better, but here is probably what they would do - First we pull stakes and run out of Iraq. So what if hundred of thousands are killed in the insuing fight for control of the country, just like Cambodia, why should we care. Ironically the only real winner here is Israel as now there are less Muslems for them to fight in the up coming war with Iran, BECAUSE, The Demwits will then send over Jimmy Carter to negocitate a nuclear freeze with Iran. Hey it worked in N. Korea and since it's inconceivable that Iran would not abide by the treaty, the US would agree that there would be no need for to have inspectors monitor / verify that they are in compliance with the treaty (just like we did with N. Korea). And, what the heck why don't we offer them the same deal we gave N. Korea - We'll build their reactors for them and throw in a little missle technology just to sweeten the deal. Good thinking :bang: :bang:
JustRalph
10-20-2006, 03:02 PM
Hip Hip Hooray! American Loses, Dems Win!
same ole song and dance
Hip Hip Hooray! American Loses, Dems Win!
same ole song and dance
Sad :(
Indulto
10-20-2006, 03:25 PM
Hip Hip Hooray! American Loses, Dems Win!
same ole song and danceYou may choose to forget the fact, JR, but Democrats are Americans too. Fortunately, many of them still endorse the historical definition of what makes America great, and don't need someone else to tell them who's a great American.
Secretariat
10-20-2006, 04:41 PM
Hip Hip Hooray! American Loses, Dems Win!
same ole song and dance
Guess what JR...nobody wins. When are you going to wake up and realize this.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/10/20/MNGJ9LT21H1.DTL
General Caldwell states:
"But on Thursday, Maj. Gen. William Caldwell, the top U.S. military spokesman in Iraq, announced that the American-led crackdown on violence in Baghdad had failed and said U.S. commanders were consulting with the Iraqi government on a new approach.
"It's clear that the conditions under which we started are probably not the same today, and so it does require some modifications of the plan," Caldwell said.
"The violence is indeed disheartening," he noted. "
GW declares on TV that this may parallel the TET offensive in Vietnam, THAT shoudl tell you how bad it has become. James Baker is deserpately trying to find a way to save face for GW's incompetence as commander in cheif in charge of leading this war. Rumsfeld appears totally befuddled as Frontline illustrated.
As Joseph Cirincione says:
This is not about Democrat versus Republican anymore. It's serious, senior people across the political spectrum saying this strategy has failed."
....
Slogans of "Stay the Course" was what Alexander the Great and Hitler advocated as well. "If" the course has not worked, you adapt. Hopefully, it has taken only 3.5 years for GW to realize this.
The picture below illustrates at least he's thinking about it.
JustRalph
10-20-2006, 04:58 PM
You cannot carry on a winning war on behalf of this country, anymore. Because the press and the Dems will not allow it to happen. This has been proven once again.
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 05:03 PM
well someone has to tell the "king" he got it wrong.
Secretariat
10-20-2006, 05:11 PM
The difference is the US is not occupying Iraq
Depends on your perception. Polls of Iraqis belevie strongly that the US is occupying Iraq. in fact, we are the occupying army,
, we liberated Iraq from a mad dictator who was funding Libya's nuclear program.
KhaDAFFY Duck had given up his nuclear intentions well before the Iraq war.
Our intent is to give the Iraqis back their country to run as they see fit. We would like nothing better to leave. The questions is how do we do that. We know from history what will happen if the US does the "democrat thing" and cut and run, after all it worked in Vietnam and Somalia.
You're ignoring many Republicans coming to the same concusion that this is a civil war which we are in the middle of (and in some ways contributed to with the CPA Order 1 and 2 which set the insurgency in motion). I agree how to get out is not easy. But the question is not one of "cut and run", but allowing Iraqis' to defend Iraq themsevles without us being the targets. Even Rumsfeld is NOW saying iraqis are going to have to defend for themselves. The solution offered of a timetable and phased withdrawal is what Baker will eventually recommend anyway with Iraqi forces taking over. Something that should have been done over a year ago. Republicans like to paint things as "either/or" when in actuality a timetable for troop withdrawal, and allowing Iraqis to defend their own country as out minutemen did in our own countrymen is the correct approach.
First we pull stakes and run out of Iraq. So what if hundred of thousands are killed in the insuing fight for control of the country, just like Cambodia, why should we care.
We were not in war with Cambodia. As to hundreds of thousands being killed, according to John Hopkins report hundreds of thousands have been killed in Iraq while we were there.
Ironically the only real winner here is Israel as now there are less Muslems for them to fight in the up coming war with Iran, BECAUSE, The Demwits will then send over Jimmy Carter to negocitate a nuclear freeze with Iran. Hey it worked in N. Korea and since it's inconceivable that Iran would not abide by the treaty, the US would agree that there would be no need for to have inspectors monitor / verify that they are in compliance with the treaty (just like we did with N. Korea).And, what the heck why don't we offer them the same deal we gave N. Korea - We'll build their reactors for them and throw in a little missle technology just to sweeten the deal. Good thinking :bang: :bang:
Get your facts correct. It was the GW administration that REMOVED the need for inspectors at the North Korea plant. The treaty was during the Clinton admin, but the Bush admin REMOVED the inspectors. Do the research. don't rely on incorrect right wing talking points -- especially when they are inaccurate.
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 05:21 PM
not occupying Iraq? Strange what do you call a foreign army on every street corner?
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 05:34 PM
KEEP UP SCARED!!
GOP to Air Ad Warning of Terror Attacks
Republicans to Start Airing TV Ad That Warns of More Cataclysmic Terror Attacks Against U.S.
By Jim Kuhnhenn / Associated Press
WASHINGTON Oct 19, 2006 — The Republican Party will begin airing a hard-hitting ad this weekend that warns of more cataclysmic terror attacks against the U.S. homeland.
The ad portrays Osama bin Laden and quotes his threats against America dating to February 1998. "These are the stakes," the ad concludes. "Vote November 7."
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 05:40 PM
ever seen the movie Red Dawn? It is a bit farfetched but at the heart of it, this movie portrays an occupying force coming into North America and what guerilla fighters would do to stop them............Universal belief that one has to expel foreign occupying forces.
Same thing in Iraq.
I can't think a better way for insignificant people like Sec, Ljb, and 46 to aid Al Qeda than with their big mouths and sorry asses, like they behave here every day. You might believe dems are Amercians, too, but I sure as hell do not believe it for a minute. The dem leadership is a bunch of traitors and several should be taken out and shot.
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 06:26 PM
I can't think a better way for insignificant people like Sec, Ljb, and 46 to aid Al Qeda than with their big mouths and sorry asses, like they behave here every day. You might believe dems are Amercians, too, but I sure as hell do not believe it for a minute. The dem leadership is a bunch of traitors and several should be taken out and shot.
KILL..... Tom's answer to all major annoyances.
Hey, the next time I even SEE or TALK to a member of a radical organization, I'll tell you about it.
It totally astounds me that anyone with an IQ above 80 could fall for this "Yur with me or Aggin' me" bull shit.
Indulto
10-20-2006, 06:48 PM
I can't think a better way for insignificant people like Sec, Ljb, and 46 to aid Al Qeda than with their big mouths and sorry asses, like they behave here every day. You might believe dems are Amercians, too, but I sure as hell do not believe it for a minute. The dem leadership is a bunch of traitors and several should be taken out and shot.Thank you, Sottom Insane.;)
Now WE are being occupied by the ruling family of Iwacky simians. :D
Secretariat
10-20-2006, 06:49 PM
I can't think a better way for insignificant people like Sec, Ljb, and 46 to aid Al Qeda than with their big mouths and sorry asses, like they behave here every day. You might believe dems are Amercians, too, but I sure as hell do not believe it for a minute. The dem leadership is a bunch of traitors and several should be taken out and shot.
Tom,
You're either with us or against us. Stay the Course, don't be a cut and runner.
Now, the dem leadership are traitors...your words..several should be taken out in shot....your words....
Thanks for your post. It highlights a mind as radical and extremist as anything we're fighting over there.
....
Now, we've got the RNC using the same ad approaches LBJ used in Vietnam..."these are the stakes"....
....
"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."
As Tennyson states, HONOR the troops, but don't let them die for a BLUNDER. They're doing their job.
People who support wasting their lives for a blunder are in my opinion the true traitors.
46zilzal
10-20-2006, 06:52 PM
"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Their's not to make reply,
Their's not to reason why,
Their's but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred."
As Tennyson states, HONOR the troops, but don't let them die for a BLUNDER. They're doing their job.
this is why a GOOD education includes both history and the arts. You have to learn from history NOT REPEAT the same mistakes.
PaceAdvantage
10-21-2006, 01:27 AM
The responses from both sides in this thread have become 100% predictable and downright disappointing.
Doesn't anyone know how to have an intelligent conversation about current events anymore? Or is it just "who's got the best putdown, or the best photo of Bush."
Jeez....anything new?
NEWS FLASH - Iraq ain't as bad as the dems make it out to be, and it ain't as good as the repubs make it out to be.....what a shocker....next....
PaceAdvantage
10-21-2006, 01:28 AM
not occupying Iraq? Strange what do you call a foreign army on every street corner?
Every street corner? I wish....
15 million Iraqis voted for democracy.
THEY do not see us as occupiers - but liberators.
No matter what lies the DNC tries to spin.....15 million voted.
There is only one vioce in Iraq.
And PA.....who is even trying to carry on a disccussion with the 4 horseman?
Can't be done. Just playing ping pong with them.
I can't think a better way for insignificant people like Sec, Ljb, and 46 to aid Al Qeda than with their big mouths and sorry asses, like they behave here every day. You might believe dems are Amercians, too, but I sure as hell do not believe it for a minute. The dem leadership is a bunch of traitors and several should be taken out and shot.
You are slipping back Tom, take a break.
MikeDee
10-21-2006, 09:09 AM
The difference is the US is not occupying Iraq, we liberated Iraq from a mad dictator
First we pull stakes and run out of Iraq. So what if hundred of thousands are killed in the insuing fight for control of the country
We like to think we liberated Iraq. The ultimate truth will be that we just enabled the replacement of one dictator who was anti-Iran, with a religious controlled state friendly to Iran.
Hundreds of thousands are being killed right now in the civil war that we refuse to recognize exists. It doesn't matter when we leave, hundreds of thousands will die in the fight for control when we do so. It is a pipe dream that we can install a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq with an Iraqi security force in firm control of the country.
15 million Iraqis voted for democracy
It's not enough to vote for democracy that's the easy part. How many are willing to fight and die for democracy? Not very many, in my opinion. and this is why the democracy will not survive after our departure no matter when we leave.
Secretariat
10-21-2006, 09:48 AM
We like to think we liberated Iraq. The ultimate truth will be that we just enabled the replacement of one dictator who was anti-Iran, with a religious controlled state friendly to Iran.
Hundreds of thousands are being killed right now in the civil war that we refuse to recognize exists. It doesn't matter when we leave, hundreds of thousands will die in the fight for control when we do so. It is a pipe dream that we can install a Jeffersonian democracy in Iraq with an Iraqi security force in firm control of the country.
It's not enough to vote for democracy that's the easy part. How many are willing to fight and die for democracy? Not very many, in my opinion. and this is why the democracy will not survive after our departure no matter when we leave.
Mike,
An excellent post from a rare poster here. Hoes to the core of the issue on freedom. I also add that it is estimated that one million Iraqis have also fled Iraq to Jordan or Syria rather than fight for freedom there.
Must have been Iraqi libs! :lol:
BTW, a few well placed missles in Iran and Syria might seriously affect the support for the civil war. Btw, is it really a civil war when it is being fueled by outsiders?
Lefty
10-21-2006, 11:58 AM
You are slipping back Tom, take a break.
lbj, you waste a lot of posts simply for the sake of demeaning.
Now let me tell you why Tom's right and you are wrong. It's one thing to be unhappy with how the war is going and to have a civil discourse where the dem leadership can tell GW where he is wrong and what they think should be done. The dems don't do that. First they voted for the war, it's public record. Now instead of polite criticism they make insulting remarks like the Pres lied and stupid stuff like he concocted the war at his Texas ranch. You don't think the enemy is listening? They're more interested in power than our country. They don't have a plan to present to the pres so they stand on podium after podium, tv show after tv show and say he lied. Harry Reid went into a SCHOOLHOUSE with young kids and called the Pres a loser. This is civil discourse? The dems have went way beyond criticism and come damn close to aioding and abetting the enemy with their venomous language.
And this is why Tom is right and you are wrong.
46zilzal
10-21-2006, 12:05 PM
but the rutabaga IS a big loser.
chickenhead
10-21-2006, 12:25 PM
I'll be totally honest here, I really have no clue anymore what the hell is going on in Iraq.
It's not clear to me who over there we're NOT fighting, or who over there is not fighting each other.
Yesterday the Madhi Army takes over Amara, from Iraqi security, in a heavy firefight. WTF? The Madhi are Shiite, right? The Iraqi Security, they are Shiite too. Then I hear later that they gave it back after some negotiating. What were the negotiations about? What did they want and what did they get? No one mentions that. Like it makes sense to take over a city and then give it right back.
Reading to about the military base. The British turn over a military base to the Iraqi military. This is a big deal, part of the handover of control. Next day..the base is looted. Military doesn't do jack, they walk away, also with some loot. WTF? Is this some kind of sick joke. That doesn't sound like we've got any partner there...doesn't sound to me like they take this thing seriously at all.
I read that the Prime Minister only has his power because Sadr gave him some support. But you've also got Sadr taking over cities from the government in firefights. So are these guys friends or enemies? The government arrested Sadr's number 2 guy, because he's been involved in directing death squads. Then they had a meeting with Sadr, and let him go. Again, who's zooming who here?
Is the PM our ally here? Who exactly is on our side? who are we supposed to be hoping pulls this thing together? Who is our partner in this thing?
Lefty
10-21-2006, 12:38 PM
but the rutabaga IS a big loser.
Venom for venom'ssake. Please present some logical arguments and not just hate. Mighty tiresome. Yawn...
lsbets
10-21-2006, 01:31 PM
I'll be totally honest here, I really have no clue anymore what the hell is going on in Iraq.
That makes you the only honest poster on this subject on PA in a long, long time.
lbj, you waste a lot of posts simply for the sake of demeaning.
(blah blah blah edited out for clarity)
Now let me tell you why Tom's right and you are wrong.
This in response to my reply to Tom's post suggesting Democratic leaders should be shot. Sheesh !
Secretariat
10-21-2006, 02:04 PM
This in response to my reply to Tom's post suggesting Democratic leaders should be shot. Sheesh !
I think Lefty is agreeing with Tom's position in that regard.
Secretariat
10-21-2006, 02:11 PM
I'll be totally honest here, I really have no clue anymore what the hell is going on in Iraq.
It's not clear to me who over there we're NOT fighting, or who over there is not fighting each other.
Amazing after a half a trillion American taxpayer dollars, and 3000+ coalition soliders killed and 20,000+ coalition soldiers wounded and three and a half years that your question has to be asked.
I do advise you to check out the Frontline on the Lost Year in Iraq. It answered a lot regarding the insurgency, and how it emerged. The perception by many here is that we are fighting primarily foreign fighters - Al Queda in Iraq, or that we're fighting Iran in Iraq. The truth is it is, as I suggested years ago a messy civil war for religious and political power, disguised as a democracy where non-Iraqi coalition soldiers preserve the democracy. It will end up an Islamic theocracy. In other words we've fought to create another Iran. Remember Iran citizens supposedly vote as well.
chickenhead
10-21-2006, 02:42 PM
that's basically my question at this point, who do we want in charge over there?
I think it's pie in the sky talk to continue to talk about how we just want a free democratic iraq. There are a couple of players, a couple of factions, one of which is going to be in charge, right?
Are we happy with any of those guys? Are we happy with a Sadr type being in charge? Is that the end result of this? It seems like that is what is happening now, while we are there. Is there someone worse than Sadr that's going to take over once we leave?
I have stuck by my wait and see approach, knowing that the ins and outs were more than I really could get a grip on, hoping to see something shaping up that I could get behind. I don't see anything shaping up though. If there is, I don't see it. Somebody tell me what is shaping up. Mr. Presi, press corps, anon poster on PA, somebody tell me what is shaping up.
I am completely willing to say we should stay there, if someone can tell me what it is we're shooting for. Not pie in the sky talk, but actual things, like:
"we're gonna have this guy do this, and that guy do that, and the result will be these guys up here governed by these guys and that guy over there governed by those guys, and we think that will work because:."
SOMETHING. Give me something to judge how things are going, and where things are headed.
46zilzal
10-21-2006, 03:11 PM
from CNN:"Three blasts tore through a crowded market in Mahmoudiya, Iraq, Saturday, killing at least 20 people, an Iraqi defense spokesman said. Attacks elsewhere killed more civilians and three U.S. Marines."
But it's getting better there and the Dick says the insurgents are nearly done.
Fight the war like we fought WWII.
But YOU libs would have kittens. Ever consider that our restraints - at YOUR insistance is why things are going poorly?
twindouble
10-21-2006, 03:37 PM
that's basically my question at this point, who do we want in charge over there?
I think it's pie in the sky talk to continue to talk about how we just want a free democratic iraq. There are a couple of players, a couple of factions, one of which is going to be in charge, right?
Are we happy with any of those guys? Are we happy with a Sadr type being in charge? Is that the end result of this? It seems like that is what is happening now, while we are there. Is there someone worse than Sadr that's going to take over once we leave?
I have stuck by my wait and see approach, knowing that the ins and outs were more than I really could get a grip on, hoping to see something shaping up that I could get behind. I don't see anything shaping up though. If there is, I don't see it. Somebody tell me what is shaping up. Mr. Presi, press corps, anon poster on PA, somebody tell me what is shaping up.
I am completely willing to say we should stay there, if someone can tell me what the fuck it is we're shooting for. Not pie in the sky talk, but actual things, like:
"we're gonna have this guy do this, and that guy do that, and the result will be these guys up here governed by these guys and that guy over there governed by those guys, and we think that will work because:."
SOMETHING. Give me something to judge how things are going, and where things are headed.
I have to admit at first I had hope for the Iraqi people, now I'm to the point where I don't give a dam how it turns out. If Iran and Shiite radicals end up in control at least we'll know who our enemies are. Screw them all, if they attack us whip the suckers out!! On another score, let them have the dam oil, in a short time we won't need it anyway, that will just force us to do what we should have done years ago. Further more the so-called moderate Muslim's would have to finally get there shit together to save their own asses. I'm totally disgusted with the way this war is going. What the hell happened to "Any nation that harbors or supports terrorists is a terrorist state and will play the penalty." We should have been on Syria's and Iran's asses from the start." Anyone with any brains could see that to begin with! Further more ignoring the radicals in Pakistan was another big blunder. We are not fighting war, it's god dam pasifcation program.
T.D.
chickenhead
10-21-2006, 04:18 PM
That makes you the only honest poster on this subject on PA in a long, long time.
as one of the few (ok, only) posters here with a uniquely informed point of view, I think it's a shame you don't know post more on this subject, as to what you think is actually going on, what you think should be going on, etc.
I understand why you don't, but I think it's too bad.
lsbets
10-21-2006, 04:41 PM
as one of the few (ok, only) posters here with a uniquely informed point of view, I think it's a shame you don't know post more on this subject, as to what you think is actually going on, what you think should be going on, etc.
I understand why you don't, but I think it's too bad.
When I have taken the time to post my observations and those of my friends who have either been there or are still there the response has been such that I decided commenting on the war is a waste of time on this board. Anyone who has a genuine interest can PM or e-mail me and find out my thoughts. My coffee house has become a magnet for local Iraq vets (two of whom are very active in the local Dem party), and despite wide ranging thoughts on the war and whether we should have gone and how it is going, the near unanimous conclusion is stop playing stupid political games and let us finish the damned job (its also pretty unanimous that four or five posters here are total morons). Running away is not an option, and half assing it shouldn't be either - both parties are playing politics to try and get votes, but its sad that one's hopes lie in a higher total of American dead. :mad:
the near unanimous conclusion is stop playing stupid political games and let us finish the damned job (its also pretty unanimous that four or five posters here are total morons). Running away is not an option, and half assing it shouldn't be either - both parties are playing politics to try and get votes, but its sad that one's hopes lie in a higher total of American dead. :mad:
This is the second time this century that we have agreed. Who woulda thunk ?
Lefty
10-21-2006, 07:20 PM
This in response to my reply to Tom's post suggesting Democratic leaders should be shot. Sheesh !
Wrong!
Lefty
10-21-2006, 07:25 PM
I think Lefty is agreeing with Tom's position in that regard.
You guys know there was more to his post than that. LBJ, you edited out part of my post, you say for clarity, but it was to bolster your lie.
Lefty
10-21-2006, 07:29 PM
I can't think a better way for insignificant people like Sec, Ljb, and 46 to aid Al Qeda than with their big mouths and sorry asses, like they behave here every day. You might believe dems are Amercians, too, but I sure as hell do not believe it for a minute. The dem leadership is a bunch of traitors and several should be taken out and shot.
lbj, and sec, as you can see there was more to Tom's post than just the part you focused on. And you know it or if you don't you're just(fill in the blank)
46zilzal
10-21-2006, 08:06 PM
there is a maneuver that magicians use all the time: the plausible diversion. Make a big to do where the audience is not looking while you do the trick. The cabal currently at the helm is doing just that.
The REAL clowns in Afghanistan get away while the charade continues.
Lefty
10-21-2006, 08:56 PM
Lefty, get a life !
lbj, get a plausible argument, articulate it without obfuscation and prevarication. Deliver it without excess verbosity.
46, is there a positive bone in your body? BTW, we are in Afghanistan.
46zilzal
10-21-2006, 10:00 PM
46, is there a positive bone in your body? BTW, we are in Afghanistan.
not about the silly war
delayjf
10-23-2006, 04:38 PM
KhaDAFFY Duck had given up his nuclear intentions well before the Iraq war.
Libya first contacted British and US officials in Mid- March 03 about the same time the war began. It was not annouced to the press until Dec 03, well after the war had begun.
Something that should have been done over a year ago. Republicans like to paint things as "either/or" when in actuality a timetable for troop withdrawal, and allowing Iraqis to defend their own country as out minutemen did in our own countrymen is the correct approach.
I would agree that ultimately it will be up to the Iraqi's to stand up for their own country. "W" would proably agree with you as well. I know if Clinton were still in office we'd pull out. How do I know this, because that's what the polls say to do - and we all know how much he loved the Polls.
Get your facts correct. It was the GW administration that REMOVED the need for inspectors at the North Korea plant. The treaty was during the Clinton admin, but the Bush admin REMOVED the inspectors. Do the research. don't rely on incorrect right wing talking points -- especially when they are inaccurate.
Your right I stand corrected, there were in fact inspectors in N. Korea - To verify that the Yongbyon nuclear plant was indeed shut-down. They were denied access to other suspected locations ( except one). However, they were kicked out by N. Korea (not Bush) after the US confronted them on the mounting evidense of their clandestine nuclear program which according to intelligence reports goes back to 95.
ever seen the movie Red Dawn? It is a bit farfetched but at the heart of it, this movie portrays an occupying force coming into North America and what guerilla fighters would do to stop them............Universal belief that one has to expel foreign occupying forces. Same thing in Iraq.
Hardly the same thing, I've seen the movie several times, I don't recall the US lining up women and childred and executing them in reprisal for attacks against US Forces, instead we liberated them from a mass murderer, have attempted to rebuild their schools, hospitols, industry etc. AND have given them the opportunity at democracy, to decide for themselves. The US has armed forces in Germany, S. Korea, Japan, etc. Are we occupying those countries as well??
Secretariat
10-23-2006, 06:38 PM
GOP senator says Iraq is near chaos
By DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press Writer
WASHINGTON - Under election-year pressure to change course in Iraq, the Bush administration said Monday there are no plans for dramatic shifts in policy or for ultimatums to Baghdad to force progress.
Just two weeks before the Nov. 7 elections that will determine whether Republicans retain control of Congress, the White House tried to calm political anxieties about deteriorating security in Iraq. Both Democratic and Republican lawmakers are calling on President Bush to change his war plan.
"We're on the verge of chaos, and the current plan is not working," Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., said in an Associated Press interview. U.S. and Iraqi officials should be held accountable for the lack of progress, said Graham, a Republican who is a frequent critic of the administration's policies.
Asked who in particular should be held accountable — Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, perhaps, or the generals leading the war — Graham said: "All of them. It's their job to come up with a game plan" to end the violence.
...
Another lib I guess.
Another lib I guess.
No, in the republican party, they allow dissention, contrary views, and independant thinking. Not a party of lemmings like the other one.:kiss:
PaceAdvantage
10-23-2006, 07:50 PM
Witness one Joe Lieberman
twindouble
10-23-2006, 08:17 PM
Here's good one.
>> Three strangers strike up a conversation in the airport
>> passenger
>> >lounge in Austin, Texas, while awaiting their respective
>> flights. One is
>> >an American Indian passing through from Oklahoma.
>> Another is a Texas
>> >cowboy on his way to Kansas City for a livestock show.
>> The third passenger
>> >is a fundamentalist Arab student, newly arrived at the
>> University of Texas
>> >from the Middle East.
>> > Their discussion drifts to their diverse cultures.
>> Soon, the two
>> >Westerners learn that the Arab is a devout, radical
>> >Muslim and the conversation falls into an uneasy lull.
>> > The cowboy leans back in his chair, crosses his
>> boots on a magazine
>> >table and tips his big sweat-stained hat forward over his
>> face. The wind
>> >outside is blowing tumbleweeds around, and the old
>> windsock is flapping;
>> >but still no plane comes.
>> > Finally, the American Indian clears his throat and
>> softly he speaks,
>> >"At one time here, my people were many, but sadly, now we
>> are few."
>> > The Muslim student raises an eyebrow and leans
>> forward, "Once my
>> >people were few," he sneers, "and now we are many. Why do
>> you suppose that
>> >is?"
>> > The Texas cowboy shifts his toothpick to one side
>> of his mouth and
>> >from the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a smooth
>> drawl,
>>.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"That's
>> >'cause we ain't played Cowboys and Muslims yet, but I do
>> believe it's
>> >a-comin'."
>>
>>
Witness one Joe Lieberman
Excellant point.
Look what they did to a guy they put out to be next in line for the presidency a few years ago!
lbj, get a plausible argument, articulate it without obfuscation and prevarication. Deliver it without excess verbosity.
46, is there a positive bone in your body? BTW, we are in Afghanistan.
Oh, oh watch out folks, Lefty has brought out his thesaurus again. :lol:
betchatoo
10-24-2006, 07:51 AM
Excellant point.
Look what they did to a guy they put out to be next in line for the presidency a few years ago!
Look what who did? The Democrats who voted in the primary decided that they did not like his political stance and voted against him. Are you trying to tell me a Republican incumbent has never lost a promary?
TD relates a funny.The Texas cowboy shifts his toothpick to one side
of his mouth and from the darkness beneath his Stetson says in a smooth
drawl, That's'cause we ain't played Cowboys and Muslims yet, but I do believe it's a-comin'." HA HA HA Asshole. You and your cowboy should get out more.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm
Quotations:
"The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard. 4
"This violent corruption needn't define us.... We can say, yes, this happened, and we are ashamed. We repudiate the greed. We recognize and condemn the evil. And we see how the harm has been perpetuated. But, five hundred years later, we intend to mean something else in the world." Barry Lopez. 3
"By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated....Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law." Peter Montague 1
twindouble
10-24-2006, 10:40 AM
TD relates a funny. HA HA HA Asshole. You and your cowboy should get out more.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm
Quotations:
"The destruction of the Indians of the Americas was, far and away, the most massive act of genocide in the history of the world." David E. Stannard. 4
"This violent corruption needn't define us.... We can say, yes, this happened, and we are ashamed. We repudiate the greed. We recognize and condemn the evil. And we see how the harm has been perpetuated. But, five hundred years later, we intend to mean something else in the world." Barry Lopez. 3
"By then [1891] the native population had been reduced to 2.5% of its original numbers and 97.5% of the aboriginal land base had been expropriated....Hundreds upon hundreds of native tribes with unique languages, learning, customs, and cultures had simply been erased from the face of the earth, most often without even the pretense of justice or law." Peter Montague 1
hcap, Do you really think posting an off the wall joke warrants calling me an " ass hole"? I have a very clear picture of our history and I don't need you to educate me on the subject. Only a true "ass hole" would respond in that manor. How's that for starters?
T.D.
Fellows,
Can't we all just get along ? ;) Hey td, I heard that joke as a child only difference was the punch line had cowboys and a derogatary term for blacks. It is getting to be even sadder in this country when we revert to racial/ethnic jokes in an attempt to gain support for our actions.
In a more serious mode. It is on record. Dubya was for "stay the course" before he was against "stay the course".
twindouble
10-24-2006, 11:18 AM
Fellows,
Can't we all just get along ? ;) Hey td, I heard that joke as a child only difference was the punch line had cowboys and a derogatary term for blacks. It is getting to be even sadder in this country when we revert to racial/ethnic jokes in an attempt to gain support for our actions.
In a more serious mode. It is on record. Dubya was for "stay the course" before he was against "stay the course".
ljb, I really put in an effort to get along, the fact of the matter is as I said before, if were to cut lose with insults responding to what some members say here and else where on this site PA would have booted my ass a long time ago and rightfully so.
If you do read my posts, you'll see I have no respect for the political situation or the poiticians of today. Besides, we all played cowboys and indians, at least in my day. From here on I'll leave the jokes to Tom our top comedian. :ThmbUp:
T.D.
JustRalph
10-24-2006, 02:48 PM
TD relates a funny. HA HA HA Asshole. You and your cowboy should get out more. http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm
nice, it was a damn joke. Get real........... and old joke........been around forever.......come on?
Look what who did? The Democrats who voted in the primary decided that they did not like his political stance and voted against him. Are you trying to tell me a Republican incumbent has never lost a promary?
More like what the local did on tis forum. And the dem leadership trying to get him not to run as an indy. Personally, we need more people like him, who are not afraid to buck party lines and actually do what they believe.
But bottom line was a jab at the local libs who keep accuing the righties of being lemmings.
ljb, I really put in an effort to get along, the fact of the matter is as I said before, if were to cut lose with insults responding to what some members say here and else where on this site PA would have booted my ass a long time ago and rightfully so.
If you do read my posts, you'll see I have no respect for the political situation or the poiticians of today. Besides, we all played cowboys and indians, at least in my day. From here on I'll leave the jokes to Tom our top comedian. :ThmbUp:
T.D.
TD,
If you will note I put a wink at the end of my Can't we all just get along statement. Denoting joke. I do read your posts, if they are not too long. And yes I think you try to get along.
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