Power Pace by Barry Burkan

[Donnie]

This was discussed a while back and someone was looking for this book....I put mine for sale out on Ebay and you can find it here if you are interested....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=015&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=250039532838&rd=1&rd=1

(hope this isn't construed as an "ad"....I only have one to sell. If it is taken as an ad, then just delete this and we'll act like this never happened!)

[keilan]

If it was discussed a while back then for sure it’s not an "ad" :confused:

[PaceAdvantage]

I don't have a problem with a well established user posting that he has something for sale on Ebay. If everyone started doing it, then something would have to be done. But, since it happens rather infrequently, no problem on this end....

[Donnie]

Thanks PA...

.....also, it's not like I have been posting every time I have listed something on Ebay. For the past 3 months I have had "rolling auctions" going on for all my handicapping books/systems/software. (sounds like another ad! Duck and cover!! :D ) Figuring I should be able to get a couple hundred bucks for my copy of HTR2.

In the past this book has come up in numerous discussions and it is a hard to find book. I know many here are collectors.

One quick question for the collectors......have you ever thought of what will happen to your collection when you pass away? Don't mean to sound morbid....just a reality check.....most horse players live in a fantasy world. I asked my wife what she would do with my stuff if I suddenly passed. "I would box it up and take it to Goodwill." I thought OMG...all my treasures....given away!! She has no idea what my collection is actually worth! One man's (woman's) trash, another man's treasure!

Those of you who are married and your wife (or husband) is not involved with horseracing or handicapping, ask her tonight that same question. Would love to hear the responses! I wager 95% will state they will just throw it all in the trash!

BOL to all!

-Donnie

[Maxspa]

Donnie,
If a couple of us on board subscribed to your philosophy, we would end up with a DEAD HEAT! Not ready for that kind of terminal behavior!!! At this point in time I'll gladly scratch!
Now for a serious question regarding Barrry Burkhan. I attended a couple of Sartin seminars in the 90's but never remember his name mentioned! Who is he and what is his handicapping contribution?
Hope you keep sharing your computer expertise with horseplayers!
Maxspa

[Donnie]

Max-
I think he was more of an attendee than anything, but he took the Sartin stuff and instead of looking at feet per second he built his system around running position. How many horses was the contender beating at the second call vs how many he beat at the finish. He felt the FPS numbers crunching was too difficult for the average fan. The book actually conatains a chart to use if you don't wanna use a calculator to figure the % of horses being beaten at the two calls. He advocated looking at the last 6 or so races at the given distance and observing the running styles. He would play the horse that fits the proper winning running style. Early modeling is what I guess you would call it. He applies what he calls a differential depending on the track's running style. After a few more gyrations and calculations, each horse is assigned a power number. It is all quite simple and anyone with a little intermediate Access knowledge could probably program it into a db.

Personally, no I do not have a death wish :D .....just had my "annual" and what fun that is!! But all is sweaky clean, so I guess I'll be around a lot longer, how do they say it in the Middle East, God willing!!! :jump:

One day I was down in my basement looking at all the stuff on my bookshelf and realized I rarely refer back to any of those books anymore. My second wife has taught me not to be such a packrat. (I do have the best wife in the world....in remodeling our basement, she asked me where I want the simulcast center to go!!) So one night when we were down there together I asked her the above question. You see her response above. I figured screw that! I'll sell them before she can give them away. Setting myself up a nice little bankroll off the sales. Surprised at some of the prices I am getting.....but then again quite a few of the books I have sold are not available on Amazon or anywhere else....at least as far as I can see. Have no plans of quitting horseracing...just cleaning out the clutter!

BOL!

[Maxspa]

Donnie,
Thank you for sharing the Barry Burkhan Info! I'm glad to hear that you are in good health and the real reason for the basement area was an ambitious space designer er wife!
I'll never forget an HTR Las Vegas seminar, when you presented the "Use of a computer in the Handicapping Process." A good teacher always recognizes the ability level of the students he instructs. You met that standard effectively and the attendees left the seminar with some valued incites. I still remember you talking about your push button program that you had devised for your own use. Finally there was a story regarding a Kentucky Derby winner "War Emblem" that you should have played with conviction and only played a few dollars on it. As handicappers, if we could only prevent the mental errors and play confidently! Ah well!
Maxspa

[Donnie]

Max-
Thanks for the kind words. I enjoy teaching.

That KY Derby was the springboard I needed to learn about believing in my own process and convictions. Went to the track to place a Trifecta based on my top 5 choices. Told the wife when I get back we would watch the Derby at home cause the track would be too crowded. Arrived to place the bet, looked at the odds board and lost faith that 3 horses could even possibly finish 1-2-3 all being 18-1 and over. Cut back to an Exacta. Saved something like $64. As luck would have it, I had the original Tri which I think paid in the neighborhood of $12K. But I was left holding an exacta ticket worth $1200 for the $2 bet. I have never felt so miserable over a winning ticket. My wife...she was estatic! But to this day she still will not let me live down that blunder. I have to gently remind her I saved $64 with my modified strategy. Sometimes the spouses just don't get! :bang:

She still reminds me to go with my original analysis. Just last week I did it again tho in a free contest at PRM....Ponies and Pros....local casino promotion...pick the winners of 2 races and 2 pro football games = win the jackpot. Prize was at $2000. I changed my mind at the very last minute, off the winning ticket onto a loser by one race. Those changes are few and far in between. Sometimes I just need that reminder I guess! :bang:

[cratman]

He was a teaching member in the early 80s. He and Pizzola were the teaching members for New York at that time. He may have left the group because he wanted to sell his own product.

[Maxspa]

Cratman,
Thanks for sharing the Burkan update. Howard Sartin had some of the best minds in the country involved with his handicapping group! When I attended his seminars in the early 90's, Michael Pizzola, Jim Quinn, Bob Purdy,
Jim Bradshaw, Dick Schmidt, Tom Brohamer, Huey Mahl and others were part of the seminar group that dispensed valuable information to the participants.
Several of the above mentioned people went out on their own and made significant contributions to the handicapping field.
Maxspa

[trying2win]

I also have a copy of POWER PACE - A METHOD FOR HANDICAPPING THOROUGHBRED RACES by Barry Burkan. It has a copyright date of 1986 on the front cover, which is an older version than the copy of POWER PACE than Donnie had for sale. Anyone interested in purchasing it, can contact me via an email or private message for further information. Selling price?...Half of the winning bid that Donnie's newer version of POWER PACE fetched on ebay. And I'll pay the postage too.

T2W

[trying2win]

Thank you to the PACE ADVANTAGE members for your interest in my copy of POWER PACE. It has been sold.

While I was thumbing through the material in POWER PACE, I found a supplement that Barry Burkan had added with regards to betting on horse races. The supplement titles were:

1. MODELLING THE WINNER BY David E. Schwartz

2. INVESTING AT THE RACES ...What does it take to win?


Seems to me, I asked HSH's own Dave Schwartz quite awhile ago if that was him that wrote those articles. I can't remember what he said...i.e. yes or no. The articles were excellent and contain very good advice. I just read these articles once again.

Hopefully Dave will read this post and confirm that indeed, it was he who wrote the above two articles a long time ago. A second thing I'd like to know is (and maybe Dave could tell us) is if Barry Burkan is still alive and if so, is he still writing horse race handicapping material these days?

Thanks,

T2W

[cratman]

Does anyone have a copy of Power Pace II that they would like to sell? Power Pace II was directed at harness races, and I understand that it originally came with audiotapes.

[Dave Schwartz]

1. MODELLING THE WINNER BY David E. Schwartz

2. INVESTING AT THE RACES ...What does it take to win?

Alas, it was me. (Or should that be "I" at the end?)



Dave

[njcurveball]

This may be the wrong place, but it seems that a suggestion of a Buy/Sell forum with the Seller perhaps giving a percentage to Pace Advantage may just work out really well here.


Just my 2 cents, you are entitled to 10% of 2 cents, Mr PA. :jump:

Jim

[Steveh]

This may be the wrong place, but it seems that a suggestion of a Buy/Sell forum with the Seller perhaps giving a percentage to Pace Advantage may just work out really well here.


Just my 2 cents, you are entitled to 10% of 2 cents, Mr PA. :jump:

Jim

I was called naive when I chose to accept statements made by a person (Jeff from jcapper) that has contributed some pretty good thoughts in this forum. The only value I could see in challenging his statement might be in hopes of hustling some free picks from one of the sharp guys. I really don't think Jeff feels a need to prove anything to anyone.

Now I question why you would want to give Donnie a hard time? I guess that I'm missing something once again but Donnie has shared many good ideas too. Is it really wise to bash people who share good solid advise?

Naive Steve

[njcurveball]

Now I question why you would want to give Donnie a hard time? I guess that I'm missing something once again but Donnie has shared many good ideas too. Is it really wise to bash people who share good solid advise?

Naive Steve

Mr. Naive Steve,

Donnie has my total respect and I am wondering what kool-aid you are drinking to try to misinterpret a legitimate suggestion for some sort of smart remark you thought was funny. Maybe you need Ryesteve to say HA HA!

Some people earn your respect and some don't. Obviously you are looking for some response, so here it is. May I guess that you too are imbibing on Jcapper kool-aid? :lol:

best to you,
Jim

[Tom]

Do you read post before you bash the posters?
He clearly said maybe he was missing something. Perhaps a cordial explanation of what you really meant would have been more approriate than another attack.

[pressman]

Just wondering if anyone happens to still have a copy Ive aquired PRN news letter containing charts and graphs about the method along with a track class chart but no explanation of the method Any replies greatly appreciated

[BeatTheChalk]

:bang: :bang: cracked me up ...

[LFeldman]

Just wondering if anyone happens to still have a copy Ive aquired PRN news letter containing charts and graphs about the method along with a track class chart but no explanation of the method Any replies greatly appreciated

Yes - I have a copy (along with the tapes). Early on, Barry marketed the "system" with Jerry Patterson. The software ran on a Radio Shack pocket computer. I obtained my copy around that time, or just after.

While Power Pace was complete methodology, I guess you could say the core of the system was based on 4 factors: an EP rating, SP rating, a RAW rating and a differential. The key point however, is that the numbers were NOT based on Times, but rather running position of the horse within the race.

Barry was a terrific fellow, and I always wondered what happened to him. Even asked Jerry Patterson at one point, but he had not talked to him in years (at that time). Anyone know Barry's whereabouts??

Larry

[NoDayJob]

A few months back a member e-mailed me a request for information on Mr. Burkan. I wasn't able to help at that time. Today, I received an e-mail from a friend of mine, regarding Mr. Burkan. Here are the last phone numbers that my friend gave me--- EDITED BY ADMIN. Hopefully this will help.

[NoDayJob]

A few months back a member e-mailed me a request for information on Mr. Burkan. I wasn't able to help at that time. Today, I received an e-mail from a friend of mine, regarding Mr. Burkan. Here are the last phone numbers that my friend gave me--- EDITED BY ADMIN. Hopefully this will help.

ADMIN.,

I wasn't aware that Mr. Burkan's phone numbers were a big secret. Next time, if there's a next time, I'll be sure to clear it with ADMIN., first.

[PaceAdvantage]

Is it his personal phone numbers or business? How am I to know? I doubt he'd want his personal numbers posted on this board. Then again, I don't know the first thing about the guy, but I make it a policy not to post any personal information about anyone without being reasonably sure it's ok with them.

Mario Savio would be proud considering his personal info was invaded by the FBI.

[rrbauer]

Thanks PA...

.....also, it's not like I have been posting every time I have listed something on Ebay. For the past 3 months I have had "rolling auctions" going on for all my handicapping books/systems/software. (sounds like another ad! Duck and cover!! :D ) Figuring I should be able to get a couple hundred bucks for my copy of HTR2.

In the past this book has come up in numerous discussions and it is a hard to find book. I know many here are collectors.

One quick question for the collectors......have you ever thought of what will happen to your collection when you pass away? Don't mean to sound morbid....just a reality check.....most horse players live in a fantasy world. I asked my wife what she would do with my stuff if I suddenly passed. "I would box it up and take it to Goodwill." I thought OMG...all my treasures....given away!! She has no idea what my collection is actually worth! One man's (woman's) trash, another man's treasure!

Those of you who are married and your wife (or husband) is not involved with horseracing or handicapping, ask her tonight that same question. Would love to hear the responses! I wager 95% will state they will just throw it all in the trash!

BOL to all!

-Donnie

What about stacks of DRF print edition? I sent over 100 lbs worth to the recycle center a couple years ago when we moved. When I asked my wife where we were going to put the old forms at our new place and she said, "Right next to your body!", I knew the string had run out. It's a cruel world out there....

[cratman]

I spoke to him and he said it was ok to post his mailing address. It is:
57 Park Terrace West, Unit 1A, NY, NY 10034.

He is still, in my experiance, a friendly thougtful and very busy fellow.

[LFeldman]

Hey - let me ask you a question. While talking with Barry, undoutedly you mentioned Power Pace. Did he mention if he is still marketing it? I have a copy, but I'm curious.

Thanks.

Larry

P.S. Would you have an email for him?

[cratman]

To the best of my knowledge, he is not marketing it anymore. As to his email, he told me I could post his mailing address. I suggest writing to him and asking for his email address.

Cratman

[libra142]

This was an interesting treat for me. I was checking out a search engine, and out of curiosity entered "Power/Pace" to see what kind of hits I would get. I was pleasantly surprised to see there were several threads about my days with Howard Sartin and also about my involvement with Power/Pace.

I have obviously not been nearly as involved with handicapping as I was before ... mostly because I am deeply passionate by nature and throw the bulk of my time and energy these days in the educational field (I am the dean at a vocational school for adults). I love my work and am a chronic work-a-holic.

Someone had asked if I am still marketing Power/Pace. Not really. The fact is that I have never been driven by money, and did not try to set things up as a business ... I love the research involved with handicapping, and came up with some solid techniques to produce consistent winners, but did not want to become a tout or market my stuff. In fact, I have about two or three methods I have developed that are very viable ... but never bothered to market any of them. I hope that doesn't sound selfish, I just didn't get around to it. Maybe (if there is interest) I will pass some of them on here with my compliments.

Probably the best addition to my normal handicapping since I introduced Power/Pace was a technique I developed to ferret out insider betting. Not exactly a new concept at all, but I came up with a way to quickly and accurately see if the stable is betting on their own horse. The basic idea is to use the EXACTA pool as a gauge. The important thing is to never blindly bet a horse just because the stable is backing it. You should trust your own assessment about handicapping more than the stable's! But I found it is an incredible way to toss out weak bets and to improve win average. I use my handicapping to narrow the field down to two or three contenders ... and then confirm if my top choice appears to be bet by the stable. If so, it is a play. If not, PASS. This gives an amazing win percentage, and is really consistent. If there appears to be a good betting opportunity (high odds), I might bet my 2nd or 3rd handicapping selection if that is the one that has indications of insider betting .... obviously this gives a lower win percentage, but higher ROI. All a matter of personal preference I guess.

Anyway, to wrap things up, if someone is interested they can contact me. Email is usually the best way these days. Send it to LIBRA142@aol.com. Be sure to put something in the header indicating that it is not junk mail. I would hate to toss someone's letter in the trash pile by mistake!

One last comment. I read a few people discussing/asking about Howard Sartin and my involvement with him. Howard was a remarkable individual, he had a great intellect and really started me thinking in a different way. I owe a lot to him, and had a fantastic time traveling to different tracks as part of the early PIRCO group. He was one of those rare teachers that come along once in a while, and I was fortunate to be in the right place at the right time.

That is all for now. Hope you don't mind such a very long letter, but it seems I had years of catching up to do.

- Barry Burkan

[Tom]

Hey Barry, nice to hear from you.

[First_Place]

"This was an interesting treat for me. I was checking out a search engine, and out of curiosity entered "Power/Pace" to see what kind of hits I would get."

Barry,

Hello! I recall seeing your name mentioned in some of the earlier Follow Up issues put out by PIRCO.

"That is all for now. Hope you don't mind such a very long letter, but it seems I had years of catching up to do."

- Barry Burkan

No, don't mind at all...in fact, I welcome it! Perhaps, if you get some time, you'd like to check out this Doc Sartin-approved forum:

Pace and Cap - featuring the Sartin Methodology and The Match Up (http://scott.asmallorange.com/~binder/forums/)

Your knowledge and contributions would be most welcome.

Best regards,

FP

[dylbert]

... check out this Doc Sartin-approved forumIs this better than an unapproved Doc Sartin forum? Is it me or does this Sartin bunch still sound more like cult than bunch of horse racing enthusiasts?

[RichieP]

Is it me or does this Sartin bunch still sound more like cult than bunch of horse racing enthusiasts?

They are all a bunch of hooligans. They won't let me eat one of my favorite dishes Cajun Shrimp Scampi. "They" said "it's not for you Rich".

Miserable rat bastards

[lsosa54]

They are all a bunch of hooligans. They won't let me eat one of my favorite dishes Cajun Shrimp Scampi. "They" said "it's not for you Rich".

Miserable rat bastards


You should see THEIR initiation rituals! Worthy of a special on the History Channel. And I ain't talking no shrimp scampi!

[socantra]

Is it me or does this Sartin bunch still sound more like cult than bunch of horse racing enthusiasts?

Looks to me like you've pretty well got them pegged. I'd stay as far away from there as possible if I were you. Sick, degenerate boogety boo.............

By the way, the reason it had to be approved by Doc Sartin was that he was the only one who knew the secret handshake.

[loveracing]

Ebay says it was invalid item that was removed when you hit the link

[First_Place]

dylbert burped:

"Is this better than an unapproved Doc Sartin forum? Is it me or does this Sartin bunch still sound more like cult than bunch of horse racing enthusiasts?"

I had a deep-down feeling I might get such an (sarcastic) response. Typical of this forum. FYI, for lack of a better term, I used "Sartin-approved" because of the very fact that Doc Sartin is indeed aware of and does APPROVE what Bill Varone aka Binder is DOING to keep the Sartin Methodology alive!

And one more thing: Try reading first Chapter 5 from Tom Brohamer's Modern Pace Handicapping book before you open your mouth and call the "Sartin bunch" "cult"-like. And even if it was a "cult," WTF is it to YOU?? Would it make the Sartin Methodology any less effective???

FP

[PaceAdvantage]

I had a deep-down feeling I might get such an (sarcastic) response. Typical of this forum.Yeah, we all just suck.

And one more thing: Try reading first Chapter 5 from Tom Brohamer's Modern Pace Handicapping book before you open your mouth and call the "Sartin bunch" "cult"-like. And even if it was a "cult," WTF is it to YOU??Typical foul-mouthed reply from a member of the Binder forum? How crass...would the good Dr. approve of such a potty mouth?

[Ted Craven]

Well, I know a few of the moderators over there ;) and the most cult-like behaviour I detect is an arch-tendancy to enforce civility and respectful language. Focus on racing, teaching. (Even 46zilzal seems to mind his manners there...)

All welcomed.

Ted

[njcurveball]

Yeah, we all just suck.

Typical foul-mouthed reply from a member of the Binder forum? How crass...would the good Dr. approve of such a potty mouth?


Gas is $4 a gallon now, why not save it for your car instead of pouring it on the fire here? :bang:

[PaceAdvantage]

(Even 46zilzal seems to mind his manners there...)I certainly respect your opinion Ted (and not just because you're an AA here). If you're implying that 46zilzal does not mind his manners HERE, then I am glad to hear this. Should the day come when I start to enforce civility and respectful language more strictly, I won't feel so bad about jettisoning this habitual thread buster of a member.

[PaceAdvantage]

Gas is $4 a gallon now, why not save it for your car instead of pouring it on the fire here? :bang:Pouring gas? I am the fire fighter, so rest assured no fire will get that far out of control.

I was merely pointing out the hypocritical nature of First Place's response. It was kind of the pot calling the kettle black, on his part, don't you think?

[njcurveball]

. It was kind of the pot calling the kettle black, on his part, don't you think?

I first learned of the Sartin Methodology through a Handicapping Expo tape and one of the first things Sartin said was "cult like". It was a joke to me back then and it is even more of a joke now.

I have met all of the "titans" in the organization and I can honestly say I was never pitched to buy anything. I learned more from their teachers and materials than any of the hundreds (yes hundreds) of books I read on racing.

When I talked to the cult leader "the Doc", all he could do was offer me some good advice and then offer me his Harness program, FREE. He didn't even ask for postage and a week later it was in my mailbox.

I also offered to buy Energy! for something like $600 and he said he wanted some more reports before selling it to me. I know a few others who were turned down on purchasing the program as well.

So if anyone mentions the Sartin cult or some other stuff, it just makes me laugh. But I dont begrudge others being a lil more passionate when the mud is being slung around.

I would agree with your comments, however, having seen some of my posts be "mysteriously" deleted for saying a lot less, I would hope yours would be more "referee" than participant.

You have the ultimate power to delete stuff like that and in this case, that would seem more prudent.

[PaceAdvantage]

I took offense to his "Typical of this forum." comment, and returned some in kind. That's all.

I'm a big fan of Sartin, Brohamer, Ted Craven and Richie P...I grew up trying to learn all I could about the methodology....

[46zilzal]

There is still the belief (just ask Davidowitz as he calls it pseudoscience since he has not taken the time to figure it out) that it is a cult of strange people. I continue to find it strange that the biggest detractors, know the LEAST about how it works because it takes quite a bit of time before the epiphany strikes. Once it does it is like the clouds opening up and you wonder, in retrospect, why it was confusing.

It works, has worked and continues to work. Period.

Brohamer left before energy and folks who follow positional definitions of style are just as "cult like" as the energy distribution people.

[njcurveball]

Brohamer left before energy .


Curious you mention this, since I have Sartin tapes with the Doc proclaiming a "victory" he got Tom to use the program.

I also spoke with Brohamer at a Seminar and he said the Energy! program was the best out there and had done more to turn losers into winners than any other Sartin program.

We may be splitting hairs here, but Brohamer was certainly still a teaching member and promoting the Energy! program. In fact he mentioned in the seminar he was putting his own variants into it and winning.

This was the now infamous "fire drill" seminar in Baltimore and I am sure there are some people on this board who attended.

Jim

[46zilzal]

Curious you mention this, since I have Sartin tapes with the Doc proclaiming a "victory" he got Tom to use the program.

I also spoke with Brohamer at a Seminar and he said the Energy! program was the best out there and had done more to turn losers into winners than any other Sartin program.

We may be splitting hairs here, but Brohamer was certainly still a teaching member and promoting the Energy! program.

One would think that a "victory" in this arena would have shown up in Brohamer's work. As it did not, what is one left to believe.

[njcurveball]

Brohamer left before energy .

Check out follow up #40, page 9, the picture of the Las Vegas Seminar. Brohamer was still with the group long after Energy, Thoromation, Entropy, etc.

I do look forward to another "Lost in Translation" answer, but basically this is not a test. Your memory of facts is not on trial here. You made a mistake, don't keep doing a "Roger Clemens" act, it doesn't make you look very good. :ThmbDown:

[46zilzal]

Check out follow up #40, page 9, the picture of the Las Vegas Seminar. Brohamer was still with the group long after Energy, Thoromation, Entropy, etc.


I recently threw all the Follow Ups (save one) away. Once you have mastery of the concept, re-reading it ad nauseum, won't help: then you have to be creative on your own.

[njcurveball]

I recently threw all the Follow Ups (save one) away.

I would not be braggin about this, you have lost hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars if you view Ebay auctions as a price gauge. :bang:

[46zilzal]

I would not be braggin about this, you have lost hundreds, perhaps thousands of dollars if you view Ebay auctions as a price gauge.
Since I never go there it is not a loss isn't it? They were mine to do what I wanted with them. Akin to a character in The Fountainhead: can't remember her name, but she dropped a statute from a window down to the street rather than let anyone else have it. Not exactly the same idea, but close.

One jettisons extraneous material.

[njcurveball]

Since I never go there it is not a loss isn't it? They were mine to do what I wanted with them. Akin to a character in The Fountainhead: can't remember her name, but she dropped a statute from a window down to the street rather than let anyone else have it. Not exactly the same idea, but close.

One jettisons extraneous material.

You could have bought drugs with them and overdosed, so throwing them out saved your life. Not exactly the same idea, but close. :jump:

[46zilzal]

You could have bought drugs with them and overdosed, so throwing them out saved your life. Not exactly the same idea, but close.
IF I ever needed "drugs" all I would do would be write a prescription for them and get them at cost from many of the pharmacies I sent business to over the years.

[Tom]

Brohammer indeed used a version of Energy! for a while at least. I had tape of a seminar he talked at on using the program...Vegas, maybe?

I like Tom...he gave me one of his crabcakes once. Yum. Better than drugs.

[delayjf]

This was the now infamous "fire drill" seminar in Baltimore and I am sure there are some people on this board who attended
I missed this one, but did make the 'Banana Seminar" at the Sands.

[Tom]

That was good one! :D

I felt bad sucking down all that beer while you were getting ready to drive across the desert! Not bad enough to stop, mind you.

[delayjf]

Figured as much, that's why when you weren't looking I stuck my fingers in your glass - care to guess where they'd been?? :eek: :)

[Tom]

That was BillW's glass! I switched 'em!:lol:

[delayjf]

I've got two sets of fingers - one for each of you. Tee Hee. :D