Islamo-BLAH BLAH BLAH

[hcap]

There have been a number of threads started by some on this board, the premise being mainstream Islam is to blame for the extremist attacks by fundamentalists within their ranks, and that the percentage of those extremists represent a substanstial portion of mainstream Islam. The supporters of these views also maintain factors other than those inherrent within Islam itself-US policies, political and historical geopolitical context-are of little consequence and the evilness of Islam is the problem.

I have rebutted these contentions. I find the hate and bigotry expressed reprehensible. I am not in denial about the dangers we face, but to make a mockery of an entire religion and over a billion culturally diverse people, is missing the point and clouds the real dangers.


Now the NIE that bush has released, although not all of it, and without the second NIE, states the following....


Declassified Key Judgments of the National Intelligence Estimate "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States" dated April 2006

Key Judgments

• Although we cannot measure the extent of the spread with precision, a large body of all-source reporting indicates that activists identifying themselves as jihadists, although a small percentage of Muslims, are increasing in both number and geographic dispersion.

We assess that the underlying factors fueling the spread of the movement outweigh its vulnerabilities and are likely to do so for the duration of the timeframe of this Estimate.

• Anti-US and anti-globalization sentiment is on the rise and fueling other radical ideologies. This could prompt some leftist, nationalist, or separatist groups to adopt terrorist methods to attack US interests. The radicalization process is occurring more quickly, more widely, and more anonymously in the Internet age, raising the likelihood of surprise attacks by unknown groups whose members and supporters may be difficult to pinpoint.


• Four underlying factors are fueling the spread of the jihadist movement:

(1) Entrenched grievances, such as corruption, injustice, and fear of Western domination, leading to anger, humiliation, and a sense of powerlessness;

(2) the Iraq jihad;

(3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations; and (4) pervasive anti-US sentiment among most Muslims, all of which jihadists exploit.

So this is what bush has begrudgingly let out.
Let's see if it all comes out.

BTW, The statistics on terrorist activity, until this year, were published in the State Department's annual report on terrorism (Patterns of Global Terrorism). The Bush Administration tried to not publish the report last year because the data showed an unprecedented surge in international terrorist attacks. The following chart shows the bad news (it is based on the statistics collected by the CIA and supplied to the Department of State):

http://noquarter.typepad.com/my_weblog/images/comparison_of_significant_attacks_2.jpg

The four fold increase in significant terrorist incidents (attacks in which people were killed and wounded) was a direct consequence of the war in Iraq. All you have to do is look at the attacks recorded and the people killed and wounded in those attacks. Iraq and India were the big targets in 2004.

[hcap]

Another chart.

http://images.dailykos.com/images/admin/terror.incidents.png

Worldwide terrorist incidents by year. Source MIPT Database.
http://www.tkb.org/Home.jsp

George Bush, Sept. 11, 2006: "The world is safer because because Saddam Hussein is no longer in power."

[lsbets]

Another minor story about the peaceful Islamic masses:

"It looks as if immigrants youths want to turn nightly rioting during the Islamic holy month of ramadan into an annual tradition. Around 8:30pm last night violence erupted again in Brussels, the capital of Europe. The riots centered on the Brussels Marollen quarter and the area near the Midi Train Station, where the international trains from London and Paris arrive. Youths threw stones at passing people and cars, windows of parked cars were smashed, bus shelters were demolished, cars were set ablaze, a youth club was arsoned and a shop was looted. Two molotov cocktails were thrown into St.Peter’s hospital, one of the main hospitals of central Brussels. The fire brigade was able to extinguish the fires at the hospital, but youths managed to steal the keys of the fire engine."

http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1384

I can't find the stories about the annual Christmas and Easter riots the last few years in Europe. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something to show that the "peaceful" religion of Islam is just misunderstood by all of us redneck bigots.

Your naivite would almost be cute if it wasn't so sad.

[ljb]

Lsbets,
Your note supports Hcap's graphs showing the increase in terror attacks since the invasion of Iraq. Don't know if this was your intention but, thanks anyway.

[hcap]

I can't find the stories about the annual Christmas and Easter riots the last few years in Europe. I'm sure you'll be able to come up with something to show that the "peaceful" religion of Islam is just misunderstood by all of us redneck bigots.Ok no christmas riots today. We thankfully have moved on from our bloody history. Violence is not limited to Islam. And your example of riots is not particulary violent or indicative of anything to get your jockeys clenched tightly in your butt. Islamofascism is not illustrated by your citing riots in Brussels.

Hey maybe this is Christofascism? Or maybe white mans fascism..

http://amath.colorado.edu/carnegie/lit/lynch/native.htm

"The lynching of Native Americans is an aspect of American history directly related to the history of white colonization. The violent history coincides with a white supremist ideology; a doctrine based on a belief in the inherent superiority of the white race over all other races. It was the colonists' faith in this doctrine that motivated and was then used to justify the lynching of Native Americans, the violent taking of their lands, and the repression of their cultural practices.

Beginning in the 1600s, the colonist began a brutal massacre of different Native Americans tribes. This massacre resulted in the death of over nine million Native Americans by 1700. According to Howard Zinn’s A People’s History of the United States: 1492-Present, the methods used to kill Native Americans during this genocidal period included lynching and the introduction of diseases by the colonists, forced migration among other tactics (12-16). This hideous treatment of Native Americans continued into the 1700s, when many were captured and made to work on plantations with African American slaves. Many rebelled and ran away from plantation life. Within the larger public sphere, fear of insurrection caused whites to separate their slaves from rebel Native American groups."

Maybe the indians were guilty of Indianofascisam, and the persecuted poor settlers had to pre-empt before they were scalped?
Yes there is a danger from fanatics and you are seeing the real problems. Self-fulfilling prophecies

[lsbets]

Hcap - the key word in your example is history. Western civilization and Christianity have both evolved from their sometimes ugly pasts. Islam has not evolved, and the ugliness is right here in the present.

[ljb]

Hcap - the key word in your example is history. Western civilization and Christianity have both evolved from their sometimes ugly pasts. Islam has not evolved, and the ugliness is right here in the present.
I see what you mean.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/26/WBC_protest.jpg

[Turntime]

Hcp;

I assume my thread is one you're referring to. Perhaps it would have been more accurate to label it "On liberals and the Muslim extremist threat", since the article's headline was "Head-In-The-Sand Liberals; Western civilization really is at risk from Muslim extremists". Your interpretation that I was making a mockery an entire religion was a wrong one.

Of course it's about the extremists. However, according to the NIE, most Muslims have a pervasive anti-US sentiment, and I suspect that a significant percentage of them are secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) cheering the jihadists on.

[sq764]

Hcap, thank you yet again for enlightening us all on how bad George Bush and the Repubs are..

Just curious, beyond posting charts and articles, what are you doing to make a difference?

[46zilzal]

Hcap, thank you yet again for enlightening us all on how bad George Bush and the Repubs are..

Just curious, beyond posting charts and articles, what are you doing to make a difference?
Got the impression that he is smart enough NOT to go into politics.

[kenwoodallpromos]

"(3) the slow pace of real and sustained economic, social, and political reforms in many Muslim majority nations"
What is your take on what this line from your post means?
Also, can you show the chart of # of terrorist attacks with casualties with Iraq left out, since Bush claimed he wanted to draw the terrorists to Iraq?
As far as mainstream Islam, the Koran teaches "mainstream" Islamists to kill Muslims who turned away from Islam- that is not opinon.
Thank you!

[46zilzal]

This Summer I spoke to the matriarch of the Talewa nation, a tribe almost wiped out by multiple massacres in the late 1800's. She told us how the government even outlawed their tribal dances and dispersed them to areas (not their homes, which were apropriated) called Ranchieras.

Really disgraceful treatment of people who did nothing but be themselves.

There are only about 100 of them left today, unfortunately for them, too small to be recognized by the federal government. A real life Catch 22.

[46zilzal]

http://www.iearn.org/hgp/aeti/aeti-1997/native-americans.html

a 95% reduction of the native population over 400 years.

[Tom]

Hcap - the key word in your example is history. Western civilization and Christianity have both evolved from their sometimes ugly pasts. Islam has not evolved, and the ugliness is right here in the present.

Like turds in a flushed toilet, islam sinks lower and lower as time goes on.
It is a holy war - worldwide, and ther sooner everyone gets it, the better off we will be.

[Tom]

Hcap, thank you yet again for enlightening us all on how bad George Bush and the Repubs are..

Just curious, beyond posting charts and articles, what are you doing to make a difference?

Making average conservatives look like geniuses! :lol:

[Bala]

Yet another astonisingly ignorant theard by American liberals. Why don't you read the unholy Quran before you put your foot in your mouth.

Most times I can understand the opposing viewpoint. However, in this case I cannot get my head that far up my *ss to understand intellectually primitive man.

Another fine example of the religion of peace;

Muslims riot in Belgium because it's that time of the holy month
Wed, 2006-09-27
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/1384

_________________
OutSource congress.

[Indulto]

Yet another astonisingly ignorant theard by American liberals. Why don't you read the unholy Quran before you put your foot in your mouth.

Most times I can understand the opposing viewpoint. However, in this case I cannot get my head that far up my *ss to understand intellectually primitive man.Is it my imagination or is there some correlation on this board between vocal political conservative supporters and vocal Muslim religion bashers? I can't be certain, but it appears that the latter group may include representatives of several Christian and Jewish sects as well as an anti-religion insurgency.

To those who may be Jewish, do you feel the Jewish Defense League speaks for you and that non-Jews are correct in lumping you as a supporter of the late, great Irv Rubin? To those who are Catholic, how do you feel about being associated by non-Catholics with a not insignificant number of American priests proven to be sexual predators? And so on …

My point is, whether you are a religious person or one who has concluded that religion is not an important factor in your life – how would you feel if a small minority of those who believe as you do in many ways (but in not in all ways) managed to get you labeled as undesirable and dangerous; leading your neighbors to call for your confinement and/or termination? What what would you do if your group were categorized as a threat to society?

It couldn’t really happen here, could it? Would I be committing “ad Hitlerem” by pointing out that adorable Adolph came to power as a democratically elected representative?

Sometimes the off-topic dialogue sounds like an original Star Trek episode where they go back in time to an era of bad guys, e.g., mobsters, Nazis, etc. Do any of youse guys have pointed ears? :lol:

[hcap]

This was my initial post. Islamo-BLAH BLAH BLAH
There have been a number of threads started by some on this board, the premise being mainstream Islam is to blame for the extremist attacks by fundamentalists within their ranks, and that the percentage of those extremists represent a substanstial portion of mainstream Islam. The supporters of these views also maintain factors other than those inherrent within Islam itself-US policies, political and historical geopolitical context-are of little consequence and the evilness of Islam is the problem.

I have rebutted these contentions. I find the hate and bigotry expressed reprehensible. I am not in denial about the dangers we face, but to make a mockery of an entire religion and over a billion culturally diverse people, is missing the point and clouds the real dangers.
Declassified Key Judgments of the National Intelligence Estimate "Trends in Global Terrorism: Implications for the United States" dated April 2006

Key Judgments

• Although we cannot measure the extent of the spread with precision, a large body of all-source reporting indicates that activists identifying themselves as jihadists, although a small percentage of Muslims, are increasing in both number and geographic dispersion.

Bala, you are guilty of the same mentality that allowed native americans to be slaugthered at the white mans hands. Or the brits to believe german soldiers ate innocent babies during WWI. Or the
1-Japs
2-german people during WWII
3-Vietnamese
4-Blacks
Were non-human, or at the least primitive savages.
Ubermensch is a failed philosophy hoisted on the petard of ignorence.
You should remember Orwell and 2 minute hate sessions. Practice makes perfect.

Your ignorence of Islam is pathetic. What expertise in religious studies allows you to cast into eternal damnation 1.3 billion human beings. I will not repeat all that I said on the Christian Man Beaten for Drinking Water thread
http://paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30786&page=3&pp=15
but the koran is more than your take.

More on the terrorism
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/story/0,,1882708,00.html

Iraq war was terrorism 'recruiting sergeant'

"The Iraq war has acted as a "recruiting sergeant" for extremists in the Muslim world, according to a paper prepared for a Ministry of Defence thinktank, which also said the British government sent troops into Afghanistan "with its eyes closed".

http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=325799&sid=WOR

"Al Qaeda gains recruits from Iraq war: UN study
United Nations, Sept 28: A UN report released on Wednesday said the Iraq war provided al Qaeda with a training center and recruits, reinforcing a US intelligence study blaming the conflict for a surge in Islamic extremism. "


Again, I am not denying the reality of a threat. I am pointing out that it has been grossly exagerated to exploit new overseas "adventures". Just as I pointed out WMDs, and other so-called threats of Iraq before the invasion did not justify invasion.

Islamocommiefascinazism?
The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.
– H. L. Mencken

"By far the largest determinant of hate crimes is racial bias, with African Americans the group at greatest risk. In 1996, 4,831 out of the 7,947 such crimes reported to the FBI, or 60%, were promulgated because of race, with close to two-thirds (62%) targeting African Americans. Furthermore, the type of crime committed against this group has not changed much since the 19th century; it still includes bombing and vandalizing churches, burning crosses on home lawns, and murder.

Among the other racially motivated crimes, about 25% were committed against white people, 7% against Asian Pacific Americans, slightly less than 5% against multiracial groups, and 1% against Native Americans and Alaskan Natives.

Resentment of ethnic minorities
Ethnic minorities in the United States often become targets of hate crimes because they are perceived to be new to the country even if their families have been here for generations, or simply because they are seen as different from the mainstream population. In the first case, ethnic minorities can fall victim to anti-immigrant bias that includes a recurrent preoccupation with "nativism" (i.e., policies favoring people born in the United States), resentment when so-called "immigrants" succeed (often related to a fear of losing jobs to newcomers), and disdain or anger when they act against the established norm. In the second case, negative stereotypes of certain ethnic groups or people of a certain nationality can fuel antagonism.

Most religiously motivated hate crimes are acts of vandalism, although personal attacks are not uncommon. The overwhelming majority (82% in 1996) are directed against Jews, states the FBI. The 781 acts of vandalism that year represent a 7% increase from 1995. However, acts of harassment, threat, or assault went down by 15%, to 941, from a total of 1,116, a decline that the Anti-Defamation League attributes to stronger enforcement of the law and heightened educational outreach.

Most of the property crimes involve vandalism. In 1997, for example, SS lightning bolts and swastikas were among the anti-Semitic graffiti discovered in Hebrew and Yiddish books in the University of Chicago library, and an explosive device was detonated at the door of a Jewish center in New York City. But personal assaults against Jews are not uncommon. That same year, two men with a BB gun entered a Wisconsin synagogue and started shooting during morning prayers. In 1995 in Cincinnati, a gang member revealed that one of the victims of his group's initiation ceremony was chosen just because he was Jewish."

Maybe all of the perps were Islamic? What do ya say Bala?
I know back in '96 and '97, Islamofascists were just buiding up to where they are today, and all 10,000 or so hate crimes was jest da warmup before they really manifest evil :cool:

Hey Bala what were you doing in '96?

[hcap]

Simple question.

"WaPo--About six in 10 Iraqis say they approve of attacks on U.S.-led forces, and slightly more than that want their government to ask U.S. troops to leave within a year, according to a poll in that country...."

So these evil dark skinned evildoers, 99% who are Muslim and are avid readers of said holy book, wanta attack us non believers 60% of da time?

Is this because
1-We are infidels?
2-They hate us 'cause of our freedoms?
3-Iraqi TV is tuned all da time to da Evil Mullahs channel?

[Secretariat]

Hcap,

You miss the crux of the fundamental Republican argument.

"You are either with us or against us."

There is no compromise.

Is "us" a nation tolerant of all races and religions, or is "us" a Judeo-Christian nation with the Bible as our guiding book? If we are a Judeo-Christian nation with the Bible as our guiding book, then the Koran and the Muslim religion is in contrast to "us". Therefore, they are not with "us", ergo they are against "us".

[Lefty]

Guess the violent reaction to the Pope's speech taught you libs absolutely nothing.

[shanta]

what a wonderful religion

[shanta]

simply wonderful

[shanta]

peace loving people

[shanta]

who care deeply about the youth

[shanta]

this is

[shanta]

disgusting to watch

[shanta]

Islam

[lsbets]

Despite those pics Shanta, there will still be apologists here for the "religion of peace". That is almost as sad as those pictures.

[Snag]

I have rebutted these contentions. I find the hate and bigotry expressed reprehensible. I am not in denial about the dangers we face, but to make a mockery of an entire religion and over a billion culturally diverse people, is missing the point and clouds the real dangers.



You can rebutt all you want. A fact you left out is that all of those "religious" people still take our money and stand there with their hand out for more.

By the way, where is the mockery you rant about? Pointing out facts about the religion is not mocking anything.

[Bala]

Hey Bala what were you doing in '96?

I was working in the World Trade Center you moron!


_________________
OutSource congress.

[Tom]

This is MAINSTREAM islam.
Animals. Mad dogs.

[Bala]

hcap - you are seriously misguided.

I have referenced the various websites you post. And this is your biggest problem. Search my prior posts. I reference the prophet Muhammad's own words in the Quran. Evidently a book you have never read.

What do American Indians have to do with Islam? Muslims are commanded by the prophet Muhammad to conquer the whole Earth. The Quran repeatedly restates this command.

You are smug. Read the prophet's words in the Quran and the Haddiths not some website. http://www.cybertime.net/~ajgood/vmordecai.html


_________________
OutSource congress.

[Suff]

what a wonderful religion

Its a Hoax. They're Carnies.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/crushboy.asp

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_caught_stealing_bread.htm

[shanta]

Its a Hoax. They're Carnies.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/crushboy.asp

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/bl_caught_stealing_bread.htm

WOW!
One of my best friends sent it to me and I was so sickened by it had to post.

People who would doctor such stuff up to further a "cause" are almost as bad as the ones who allow children to go through crap like this for
" entertainment ".

Thanx for the heads up Suff.

Richie

[BenDiesel26]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/index_files/Rojda-Gezginci.jpg

Theres one for you. The caption reads: As a 13 year old girl in Turkey, Rodja was raped, then forced to marry her rapist under Islamic law. Her face was mutilated by her 'husband's' family when she refused to prostitute herself after he was imprisoned for raping another child.

Those pictures may be doctored, but there is stuff like this, honor killings, etc. that goes on every day. Are these the radicals? I don't know, this stuff happens in the mainstream Middle East as well.

article (http://www.dawn.com/2006/09/24/nat14.htm)

[rastajenk]

Everybody should start their day at Little Green Footballs (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/) for non-hoax widespread Islamo-insanity. There, activities and depravities of the Religion of Peace are well documented.

[PaceAdvantage]

Before this goes any further, please, no gruesome pix of terrorists with their heads blown off or any other shit like that....this isn't the place.....

[hcap]

Hey head up your *ss Bala.

I studied Islam. I practiced with The Mevlevi Order founded by the followers of Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi. I count among my closest friends Muslims equaling the highest humanitarian and spiritual values of Christians and Jews.

You know squat other than literal and out of context passages from the Koran. I have already been thru this nonsense on the "Christian man beaten..." thread.

One more time. The Koran has many followers of different interpretations.
Just as the Bible has a broad spectrum of interpretation.

Spain take 1

Muslims ruled over Spain for 736 years. If the Muslims had used any force during those 736 years to convert the Christians to Islam there wouldn't have been a single Christian left to kick out the Muslims after 736 years of rule.

"During the end of the first millennium, Cordova was the intellectual well from which European humanity came to drink. Students from France and England traveled there to sit at the feet of Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars, to learn philosophy, science and medicine (Digest, 1973, p. 622). In the great library of Cordova alone, there were some 600,000 manuscripts (Burke, 1978, p. 122).

This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Moorish Spain, "thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords." (Burke, 1985, p. 38) The society had a literary rather than religious base. Economically their prosperity was unparalleled for centuries. The aristocracy promoted private land ownership and encouraged Jews in banking. There was little or no Muslim prostelyting. Instead, non-believers simply paid an extra tax!

"Their society had become too sophisticated to be fanatical. Christians and Moslems, with Jews as their intermediaries and interpreters, lived side by side and fought, not each other, but other mixed communities." (Cleugh, 1953, p. 71)

Spain take 2

The Spanish Inquisition and our Christian tolerance in Spain

"Any Jew or Muslim who had not converted and did not leave Spain was thereafter legally executed by the Crown with the Pope’s knowledge and approval. Many practicing Jews and Muslims had left Spain by early August of 1492 and any who did not leave were executed soon afterwards. Many of the converts were killed anyway when they were accused of heresy thereafter, usually people who a) had money and/or b) could be accused of having a Jewish or Muslim ancestor, whether it was true or not.


The Spanish Inquisition was loosely connected with the Holy Office of the Inquisition into Heretical Depravity (which lacked the manpower/resources to conduct the inquisition properly). The Holy Office of the Inquisition into Heretical Depravity was responsible for many other inquisitions, largely targeting Christian dissenters, secular freethinkers and Jews.

In 1478 the pope, Sixtus IV, allows Ferdinand and Isabella to establish a special branch of the Inquisition in Spain. There is believed to be a danger to the church from Jews masquerading as Christians. Such Jews are referred to as marranos ('swine'). Their conversion is the result of anti-Semitic violence during the previous century. To escape the likelihood of death at the hands of Christian mobs, many Jews (probably about 100,000) accept baptism. But a considerable number continue to practise their Jewish faith in secret.

The first Grand Inquisitor is appointed in 1480. He is Tomas de Torquemada, who himself comes from a family of converted Jews. His dedication to his task will become legendary. And the public much appreciates the great ceremonies which he stage-manages - the famous auto-da-fés.

The auto-da-fé (Spanish for 'act-of-faith') is a solemn religious ceremony in a tradition going back to the inquisition against the Cathars. The inquisitor and those accused of heresy process into a public place, such as the main square of a town. After the holding of a mass, the verdicts on the accused and the sentences on the guilty are announced.

In 1492 Torquemada persuades Ferdinand and Isabella to expel from Spain all Jews who are unwilling to convert to Christianity. About 160,000 of them leave the country. Ten years later the same demands are made of the Spanish Muslims. From being one of the most tolerant countries in Europe, in the heyday of Cordoba and Toledo, Spain becomes the most intolerant.

[lsbets]

Hcap - once again we are speaking of today and how Islam is preached and practiced today, not 100, 300, or 700 years ago. Wake up.

[sq764]

hcap - you are seriously misguided.



Wow, excerpts from the 'obvious' department

[Suff]

Everybody should start their day at Little Green Footballs (http://www.littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/) for non-hoax widespread Islamo-insanity.

Sound advice. The "caught stealing bread" hoax appeared on LGF in November 2005.

[Bala]

hcap - I'll post my rebuttal in a separate thread.

Briefly --> You are living in the distant past. The Muslim faith practiced in olden days {apparently your faith} is not the Islam of today. Since the fall of the Ottoman Empire everything has changed! Modern day Islam as practiced by Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Syria-Lebanon, Iran is not the faith you seem to practice.

Separately, might I remind you, as you brought up the American Indians - it was the peace loving Islam armies that first enslaved the African people 300 years before the white man stepped foot in Africa. That is right, the African slave trade was initiated by your religion of peace. As I have stated before, I've been to various parts of Africa 20 times in the past 20+ years......more to came.


_________________
OutSource congress.

[Suff]

As I have stated before, I've been to various parts of Africa 20 times in the past 20+ years......more to came.


_________________
OutSource congress.



:lol:

You have more stories than Walt Disney.