What about first lasix??

[Fastracehorse]

Dutrow is 40 % with the move and he wired some turf maidens yesterday at 9:2 - with Prado aboard!

One of my favorite lonshot angles is sprint to route and FTL.

Allen Jerkens is also excellent with FTL.

Or second time starters that had late run their first start - and then add lasix.

So many good lasix angles.

fffastt

[1st time lasix]

As my forum identity name implies.....one can not ever overlook first time lasix as a handicapping angle. Particularly with colt sprinters who showed speed prior to its use. With fillies it may be 2nd time lasix before the form reverses. It may help horses stretch out. Some say that it also can mask other agents that can "wake up" a horse. ???? Not the only handicapping angle....but one that can never be dismissed especially when getting longer odds in the gimmicks.

[BIG49010]

Lasix - 1 is not much of an angle anymore, with most horses on lasix before they make their first start. I don't see it come up at NYRA tracks more then 1 or 2 times a week. Tough to make a go of it with those kind of numbers.

The big question yesterday with Dutrow, was why hadn't he run a horse on the grass, that was a daughter of Lady Gin?

[Fastracehorse]

As my forum identity name implies.....one can not ever overlook first time lasix as a handicapping angle. Particularly with colt sprinters who showed speed prior to its use. With fillies it may be 2nd time lasix before the form reverses. It may help horses stretch out. Some say that it also can mask other agents that can "wake up" a horse. ???? Not the only handicapping angle....but one that can never be dismissed especially when getting longer odds in the gimmicks.

You are right: Not the only angle.

It works really well in combo with other angles.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

Lasix - 1 is not much of an angle anymore, with most horses on lasix before they make their first start. I don't see it come up at NYRA tracks more then 1 or 2 times a week. Tough to make a go of it with those kind of numbers.

The big question yesterday with Dutrow, was why hadn't he run a horse on the grass, that was a daughter of Lady Gin?

With a 40 % FTL stat there is no need to ponder anything - it's blindly automatic - but there izzzzzzz the other 60 % :)

And I'd be happy with 1 or 2 lasix angles a week - but there are more than that in NY per week.

fffastt

[46zilzal]

if one studies the physiology and pharmacology a tremendous amount of bleeding is caused NOT by EIPH for by Bute.

[cj]

I generally figure 1st Lasix to enhance performance about 3 lengths, and it has served me well.

[bigmack]

I generally figure 1st Lasix to enhance performance about 3 lengths, and it has served me well.
Define length?

http://www.threestooges.net/images/episodes/40.jpg

http://www.guidehorse.org/images/CuddlesJanetFranklinton52.jpg

[46zilzal]

one drug to cover up another. What do the anti-inflammatories block? Platelet function. What is the first line of defense for small hemorhages? platelets.

[Turfday]

Based on a representative sample size of at least 60 instances of 1st Lasix in the last three years from today back:

Josie Carroll 74 starters 13 winners AVERAGING $14 win payoff

Neil Drysdale 77 starters 19 winners AVERAGING $12 win payoff

Grant Forster 66 starters 15 winners AVERAGING $16 win payoff

Steve Klesaris 92 starters 23 winners AVERAGING $8 win payoff

Based on the last three years, Dutrow is "only" 26% (95 /25/ $7) in the last three years. For high win percentage in the last three years based on at least 60 instances try:

Todd Beattie 89 starters 29 winners AVERAGING $7 win payoff

[46zilzal]

only problem is tying the simple fact of a drug vs. if that horse would have won without it.......Hard correlation to prove.

[cj]

Define length?



Until I see a horse like one of those on the track, I'm going with 8 feet.

[46zilzal]

ttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=9673965&dopt=Abstract

also everytime another drug is added, you NEVER really know what that COMBINATION does.

As a junior I had to bring in an internist as a consultation on a long standing alcholic who had blown out his pancreas after binge drinking (acute pancreatitis). He became a diabetic overnight and had to replace all of the enzymes no longer produced. Having OTHER medical problems as well he was a known "shopper" (going to various doctors accumulating all manner of prescriptions). When I saw him he had some "phantom pains" that defied physical diagnosis.

All the internist did was subtract a few of the extraneous meds he did not need and all symptoms disappeared.

What caused that pain? Don't know as there were too many factors. Drug COMBINATIONS are never tested.

[bigmack]

Until I see a horse like one of those on the track, I'm going with 8 feet.Are all that fig speed/pace on the same page for using 8’?

only problem is tying the simple fact of a drug vs. if that horse would have won without it.......Hard correlation to prove.

Lasix/Drugs discussed on NPR from 5/05 with:
Dr. Rick Arthur - Vet for Oak Tree Racing
A Beyer - Knucklehead columnist for Wash Po
Remi Bellocq - Director Ntl Horsemen's Benevolent & Protective Assoc.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4632120

[Tom]

Define length?



Looks like they carved the little one out of the big one! Woo woo woo!

[shanta]

Are all that fig speed/pace on the same page for using 8’?
[/url]

No.

Sartin software ( Pace Launcher,Synthesis, Validator 1,2,3) all use different values for beaten lenghts. Don't want to get into more here as it is off topic

Rich

[BIG49010]

Checking my database, I show for the tracks I play 77 L-1 winners out of 541 starters.

56 of the winners were less than 5-1
38 of the winners were less than 2-1

For me I still think it is an overbet stat.

[Ron]

How many times were they in the money? I think what people are saying is that they should be considered in exotics. They're also saying that the horse will improve off his/her last race. If the improvement isn't enough, he/she won't be considered.

[1st time lasix]

How many times were they in the money? I think what people are saying is that they should be considered in exotics. They're also saying that the horse will improve off his/her last race. If the improvement isn't enough, he/she won't be considered. Absolutely right....no one is suggesting that this angle {1st lasix}is an automatic play in every situation. But any comprehensive handicapper has to figure in all possible ways a horse can improve enough to hit the board when being overlooked and underappreciated by the public. It could be breeding in a maiden turf race, horses coming off layoffs, better pace scenario, change in distance, surface or equipment, etc etc. Lasix can be a powerful tool for trainers. !st time in colts can produce a powerful form reversal. 1st or 2nd with a philly. Particularly if combined with some speed form.

[46zilzal]

This whole thread is funny since BUTE causes a lot of the bleeding......

Create a pharmacological problem, then cover it by another?

That is poor planning.

A significant number of our elderly have occult GI bleeding from the use of ASA and other NSAID's. Horses are no different.

Loading animals with Bute, how are you going to know which are NATURALLY bleeding and which are induced??

All in all a silly dichotomy.

[classhandicapper]

:lol:



Define length?



http://www.threestooges.net/images/episodes/40.jpg


http://www.guidehorse.org/images/CuddlesJanetFranklinton52.jpg

[classhandicapper]

Until I see a horse like one of those on the track, I'm going with 8 feet.

Has the approximate number of feet in a length as presented in the DRF ever been defined?

Jerry Brown did some research on the issue but the people at Equibase (?) never gave him an answer. All we were told was that it was based on the times of the horses and not the actual lengths behind (at the finish).

I never got an answer from contacts at the DRF, but I believe Formulator uses the 1 length equals .18 seconds formula. Perhaps that's consistent with the DRF/Equibase formula, but no one would say.

I know CJ uses a different formula than Beyer.

[Overlay]

Has the approximate number of feet in a length as presented in the DRF ever been defined?

For what it's worth, if you assume five lengths per second, and 12 seconds per furlong, that works out to 11 feet per length.

[bellsbendboy]

Using ANY trainer, and his, or her, first time Lasix percentage is clear evidence that, that capper needs some training reading the DRF. BBB

[46zilzal]

It would be very interesting to find ANY actual studies that show a correlating to lasix and improvement. Physiological - vet school studies.

One hears all these anectodal results but I have NEVER seen a reputable one that showed a direct positive effect.

[cj]

I searched through my Champions book from DRF. It lists Beyers of all the horses from the 90s on, and contains lifetime PPs. I looked at every horse that showed 1st Time Lasix, and the average was around 8 points. Declines were extremely rare, and the improvement was actually pretty consistent. Not only was the average 8 points, the cluster size within a few points of the average was huge. I don't recall the exact standard deviation, but it wasn't as anywhere near as big as I would have guessed going into the study.

[46zilzal]

and how many are REALLY bleeding naturally before the Bute?

but how would you know? at Emerald Downs, during the track’s 1998 meeting, 7,016 of 7,060 starters – 99.4 percent – raced on bute.

what really gets me is drugging baby First timers....Fashion not physiological Function.

How many BLEEDERS would there be without Bute around to cause it?

[turfbar]

The way I understand it is all horses bleed eventually ,something about evolution,and the blood in thier throats disrupts thier breathing and with no
oxygen no running.Like all living objects I am willing to bet there are some horses who bleed more than others.Old school methods of containing bleeding before the use of lasix universally was time off and I think a special diet and I also think some back in the day some trainers were proficient about it and were very good at it, maybe someone with knowledge of training horses could chime in.

Turfbar

[bellsbendboy]

Horses bleed due to stress. When evaluating first Lasix two general rules help:
1) Did the horse have trouble in its previous race? For instance; in tight, checked or even first time starter.
2) Has the horse had time enough to recover? A minimum of eighteen days is a must and I would give more credence if there was a five furlong work prior to next start.

A case in point. Many years ago my roommate asked me for help in running his horse. She was in for $12,500 at Latonia and after the race I was walking her when I took her in the stall for a drink of water. She tried to eat some straw and when I jerked her head up I saw a trickle of blood. We gave her three weeks, then worked her a stiff five eighths with Lasix. She finished well, so we entered her for $16,000 and she paid a big price even with everyone on the Churchill backside cashing in. Good cappin. BBB

[Turfday]

Please correct me if I'm wrong. As I recall...unless things have changed...or different jurisdictions have different rules, the dosage of Lasix given a horse can be adjusted.

Again, if memory serves, in California there were three different doses that could be given a horse (essentially small/medium/large, something like that). The vets had the authority to administer one of these doses depending on the size of the horse and the amount of bleeding.

If this still holds true, this can also confound the handicapper because if a horse still bleeds through first Lasix (because he received a smaller dose), the vet can administer a higher dose the next time).

If any of you Lasix experts are out there, your comments would be interesting and appreciated.

[Turfday]

When administering first time Lasix, there are at least three competent California trainers, who start quite a few horses, and it means NOTHING as far as their win percentage.

In a relevant sample size over the last three years:

trainer Barry Abrams.... 1 for 56 with first-time Lasix (a 10% trainer overall)

trainer Juan J. Garcia.... 3 for 56 with first-time Lasix (a 15% trainer overall)

trainer Darrell Vienna.... 2 for 52 with first-time Lasix (a 13% trainer overall)

And how about some trainers outside California over last three years:

trainer Bobby C. Barnett.... 1 for 75 with first-time Lasix (12% trainer overall)

trainer William Bradley.... 2 for 51 with first-time Lasix (11% trainer overall)

[Turfday]

Looking over my stats, it appears that the mean average for trainers with 2nd time Lasix appears at least a few points higher than with 1st Lasix. Anyone have anything more definitive on that?

[classhandicapper]

I searched through my Champions book from DRF. It lists Beyers of all the horses from the 90s on, and contains lifetime PPs. I looked at every horse that showed 1st Time Lasix, and the average was around 8 points. Declines were extremely rare, and the improvement was actually pretty consistent. Not only was the average 8 points, the cluster size within a few points of the average was huge. I don't recall the exact standard deviation, but it wasn't as anywhere near as big as I would have guessed going into the study.

That's a great study.

One thing I would be careful about is "when" the horse was given Lasix. Since these horses were Champions, that virtually guarantees there was an upward bias in their figures from the time they first ran through their seasoning and maturity. If the stats were heavily weighted towards early career performances, they would tend to reflect normal improvement also.

The average might be different if you studied just 5YOs or also included a bunch of horses that never developed much after their early starts.

[46zilzal]

furosemide is a BANNED substance in the World Anti-doping groups for just what reason? IT HIDES OTHER THINGS by flushing them out of the body....

LASIX is the brand name of furosemide and the title stands for Loop (Loop of Henle) Acting Six Hour diuretic. It is a very strong diurectic usually given for hypertension and the fluid retainment of Congestive Heart Failure (also for brides who want to fit into that wedding dress better on the big day). In humans taking it chronically, one always has to address their electrolytes of Na/K since their being out of balance COULD upset heart beat and/or cause seizure activity. One has to be careful in balancing it with other medications that are cleared by the kidneys as the second medication may be adversely effected by leaving the blood stream too rapidly.

In hypertension I always explain to my patients to compare their blood vessels to a system of plumbing pipes. The water pressure in a plumbing system depends upon how much water is in a FINITE system of pipes. Lower the volume of water, and the pressure against the pipes will go down.

[cj]

The average might be different if you studied just 5YOs or also included a bunch of horses that never developed much after their early starts.

Now that is funny! I'd be lucky to find 10 in an entire year of racing in North America.

But, there wasn't any noticable difference between younger, lightly raced horses and Europeans shipping in later in life and getting first lasix. For those who used Lasix first time North America, I used a Timeform adjustment that all the Timeform and Beyer guys say not to use, but has served me very well.

There were a few US horses who got Lasix later on and the range was the same. When I have some free time, at work that is, I'll go back and post the whole list.

[Valuist]

When administering first time Lasix, there are at least three competent California trainers, who start quite a few horses, and it means NOTHING as far as their win percentage.

In a relevant sample size over the last three years:

trainer Barry Abrams.... 1 for 56 with first-time Lasix (a 10% trainer overall)

trainer Juan J. Garcia.... 3 for 56 with first-time Lasix (a 15% trainer overall)

trainer Darrell Vienna.... 2 for 52 with first-time Lasix (a 13% trainer overall)

And how about some trainers outside California over last three years:

trainer Bobby C. Barnett.... 1 for 75 with first-time Lasix (12% trainer overall)

trainer William Bradley.... 2 for 51 with first-time Lasix (11% trainer overall)

The Barnett numbers make sense. His numbers with first time starters are really poor, and most runners nowadays make their debuts running on Lasix.

[cj]

Anyone counting first time starters in the first time lasix group should probably re-examine his thinking. It makes no sense to include them in the group.

[Turfday]

nm

[delayjf]

Looking over my stats, it appears that the mean average for trainers with 2nd time Lasix appears at least a few points higher than with 1st Lasix. Anyone have anything more definitive on that?

I though I read somewhere that it takes a little time for Lasix to have it's full affect, which may account for why your stats show a stronger average for 2nd lasix.

When I was a groom, I found out that a lot of trainer administer bute on all their horses to avoid a positive test if a horse that was not reported to be on bute tested positive for bute.

Bye the way,
On one dark day at Ak-sar-ben, another groom I worked with went to Atokad Park in South Sioux City NE. I kid you not, there was a horse entered in one race with a swayback as bad as the horse pictured in this thread. I could not believe it. :eek: :eek:

[46zilzal]

I kid you not, there was a horse entered in one race with a swayback as bad as the horse pictured in this thread. I could not believe it.

An old gelding that ran until he was 11, and is co-owner of the track record for six furlongs was very much like the one pictured. Almost like a weiner dog, it actually helped his mechanics.....

[delayjf]

Probably his aerodynamics as well, jockey could get real low. :D

[Fastracehorse]

only problem is tying the simple fact of a drug vs. if that horse would have won without it.......Hard correlation to prove.

The problem for stewards is that they can't prove anything - even in the light of massive evidences.

And what you are saying makes it interesting for handicappers.

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

Now that is funny! I'd be lucky to find 10 in an entire year of racing in North America.

But, there wasn't any noticable difference between younger, lightly raced horses and Europeans shipping in later in life and getting first lasix. For those who used Lasix first time North America, I used a Timeform adjustment that all the Timeform and Beyer guys say not to use, but has served me very well.

There were a few US horses who got Lasix later on and the range was the same. When I have some free time, at work that is, I'll go back and post the whole list.

I luv Euro shippers with first Lasix.

In California it's a nice angle especially if the shipper is in for a tag.

fffastt

[tboles]

fffastt....
This ties into an age old angle that I have used. I like to see the horse on lasix for the 3rd time before I use lasix as an angle. I have managed to get some really nice prices out of this one. I strictly use this in maiden type races.
I will attach an insert from race 2 at belmont park on 10/04/06.
The running lines belong to the eventual winner, A Wonder She Is $14.40

I listed a few of the requirements of the angle in the attached file.

[Fastracehorse]

fffastt....
This ties into an age old angle that I have used. I like to see the horse on lasix for the 3rd time before I use lasix as an angle. I have managed to get some really nice prices out of this one. I strictly use this in maiden type races.
I will attach an insert from race 2 at belmont park on 10/04/06.
The running lines belong to the eventual winner, A Wonder She Is $14.40

I listed a few of the requirements of the angle in the attached file.

Cool!

fffastt

[Fastracehorse]

Checking my database, I show for the tracks I play 77 L-1 winners out of 541 starters.

56 of the winners were less than 5-1
38 of the winners were less than 2-1

For me I still think it is an overbet stat.

For example,

If U have a field of 10 first-time starters all on Lasix - only 1 can win. There is a 10 % win rate right there.

But if Dutrow is 40 % FTL ( and wins with 25 % of firsters ) - I think U can see the difference in efficacy.

fffastt

[PriceAnProbability]

It would be very interesting to find ANY actual studies that show a correlating to lasix and improvement. Physiological - vet school studies.

One hears all these anectodal results but I have NEVER seen a reputable one that showed a direct positive effect.

A study was done at Philadelphia Park in the early 1990s, where they gave Lasix to a number of horses who didn't "need" it. The findings were that it enhanced performance by about a length at one mile.

Since Lasix can be corrective, however, in some horses it might allow them to return to a potential that was not previously evident. In 1992, for example, Thelastcrusade went from running for a $7,000 maiden tag to winning five in a row with lasix, capped off by a win at 9-1 in the Pennsylvania Derby.

[PriceAnProbability]

Lasix can be a powerful tool for trainers. !st time in colts can produce a powerful form reversal. 1st or 2nd with a philly. Particularly if combined with some speed form.

The same night I read this post, I chose to mess around with a few races later that night, and at Remington Park, I found a killer 7-5 shot in a maiden race (for fillies) who figured to romp (and did).

Underneath, I liked two horses, but found a third filly with weak past figures, a good amount of early speed, and who was second lasix. Figuring there was no better way to test the angle, I keyed the 7-5 shot over the three horses (including the 30-1 second-time lasix), and watched as this longshot carried her speed almost all the way to the wire, where my horse barely got up (I had the exacta both ways anyway).

The tri came back about $782 or something like that, so thank you. This was the first time I could ever attribute a big win directly to something I read on this board.

[Fastracehorse]

The same night I read this post, I chose to mess around with a few races later that night, and at Remington Park, I found a killer 7-5 shot in a maiden race (for fillies) who figured to romp (and did).

Underneath, I liked two horses, but found a third filly with weak past figures, a good amount of early speed, and who was second lasix. Figuring there was no better way to test the angle, I keyed the 7-5 shot over the three horses (including the 30-1 second-time lasix), and watched as this longshot carried her speed almost all the way to the wire, where my horse barely got up (I had the exacta both ways anyway).

The tri came back about $782 or something like that, so thank you. This was the first time I could ever attribute a big win directly to something I read on this board.

Another reason that Lasix works is that it promotes fluid loss - a horse can lose alot of weight - and in turn enhance it's performance.

fffastt

[1st time lasix]

The same night I read this post, I chose to mess around with a few races later that night, and at Remington Park, I found a killer 7-5 shot in a maiden race (for fillies) who figured to romp (and did).

Underneath, I liked two horses, but found a third filly with weak past figures, a good amount of early speed, and who was second lasix. Figuring there was no better way to test the angle, I keyed the 7-5 shot over the three horses (including the 30-1 second-time lasix), and watched as this longshot carried her speed almost all the way to the wire, where my horse barely got up (I had the exacta both ways anyway).

The tri came back about $782 or something like that, so thank you. This was the first time I could ever attribute a big win directly to something I read on this board. You are welcome....of course I didn't see you offer to share the wealth? ha! Glad you learned something. I have hit two races that I can attribute to the message board. One that referred to Rahy as a potent sire on the polytrack and one that gave me a horse that was dropping from California open race into a NY restricted maiden race ....What goes around....comes around!

[delayjf]

Another reason that Lasix works is that it promotes fluid loss - a horse can lose alot of weight - and in turn enhance it's performance.

I agree that lasix is a diuretic and will cause water loss, but a dehydrated horse will not perform at it's peak, I've heard of some trainers stiffing a horse by not giving it water. The affect lasix has is to clear the bronchial airways and allow the horse to breath properly. The diuretic effect my only serve to flush out anything else that maybe in the system.

[parlay]

I remember when lasix was made legal for raceday application
in Ontario (WEG).
It was magic, almost an automatic bet. The non-believers
took it on the chin till they jumped on the wagon.
Now I look for a horse that showed excellent early speed
and stopped abruptly. For example, on or vying for the lead
for 4f and way out at next call.
This is the type of horse that i constantly see underbet.
It is an auto play for me.

[Fastracehorse]

I agree that lasix is a diuretic and will cause water loss, but a dehydrated horse will not perform at it's peak, I've heard of some trainers stiffing a horse by not giving it water. The affect lasix has is to clear the bronchial airways and allow the horse to breath properly. The diuretic effect my only serve to flush out anything else that maybe in the system.

But the important thing is that there is no fluid in the lungs ( blood ).

The level of de-hydration may not be of importance as the best horses in N. A. are all using it.

fffasttt

[PriceAnProbability]

You are welcome....of course I didn't see you offer to share the wealth? ha! Glad you learned something.

Hit another one in the 10th at Lrl yesterday at 12-1: second lasix, filly, MSW-MCL drop, Small trained, and Anna Rosie Napravnik gave a BEAUTIFUL ride to win going away by daylight in a way that was never in doubt.

[gm10]

the model I use reveals a + effect of FTL for sprints
for routes, it makes no difference

[PriceAnProbability]

the model I use reveals a + effect of FTL for sprints
for routes, it makes no difference

I'm about 262 units ahead after making two bets with his angle.

[Tom]

Are you gonna post the losers, too?