Interesting Article [Archive] - Horse Racing Forum - PaceAdvantage.Com

Tee

09-16-2006, 12:37 PM

What the article hints at, but fails to mention is that Wie took 34 putts thursday & 33 putts on friday. Putting it as mildly as I can - her short game sucks!!

Also averaging 263.8 yards off the tee on a golf course that is just over 7,500 yards isn't going to cut it either. She is long when being compared to other women, but would fail to crack the top 200 on the PGA Tour driving distance stats.

Once again the Wie family has ties to 84 Lumber owner Joe Hardy and thus was offered and took the exemption to play in the event. Once again Michelle has no status anywhere & will take any excemption she can get to gain experience while waiting to become a member of the LPGA Tour.

This is the last year that 84 Lumber will be hosting the Classic, so I wouldn't except a return trip for Michelle next year.

Another week with a few more tickets sold.

On a side note, I particularly enjoyed the last paragraph of the article. :D

sq764

09-16-2006, 01:14 PM

The article also mentions that her drives do not compare with the men's, which is yet another reason why she doesn't belong.. never mind..

JPinMaryland

09-16-2006, 01:53 PM

kenwoodallpromos

09-16-2006, 03:03 PM

How long is she going to be the token female? She's not good enough or strong enough.

sq764

09-16-2006, 03:19 PM

The only question I have is how long does this dog and pony show have to go on before it has a negative effect on fans? How many fans of golf does it take to get really sick of this to outweigh the extra 10,000 tickets or so that 84Lumber sold for this event? I guess time will tell.
The sad part is they will still come to see the spectacle of a female.. LIke when people go slow by a car wreck. They are not marveling at her anymore, and I think some people are enjoying seeing her fail.. (Vijay Sing for one..).. And frankly I don't blame the men on the tour for enjoying her failure. She simply doesn't belong there.

bigmack

09-16-2006, 03:54 PM

I ought not to chime in on this one and she ought not to have comment after each failed cut:

"Even though my score wasn't great - it was actually quite bad - I didn't feel like it was actually that bad because I felt like my game was 100 times better than last week," she said.

If she keeps going we'll have Wie-isms like Yogi-isms

Such as, "If you can't imitate him, don't copy him" or
"How the hell are you gonna think and hit at the same time?"

http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/ad/beam.gif

Tee

09-16-2006, 07:47 PM

The article also mentions that her drives do not compare with the men's, which is yet another reason why she doesn't belong.. never mind..
We're reading a different article in regards to driving stats.

Who exactly said she belongs on the mens tour?

Who says she's on the mens tour?

Non Member Sponsor Exemptions
LPGA Tour - Six Sponsor Exemptions
PGA Tour - Eight Sponsor Exemptions(obviously 8 aren't coming Michelle's way.)

As I have stated before her playing opportunities are limited as of right now, so she is going to take tournament experience wherever she can. If some men can't handle the fact that she is playing events on a men's tour, well tough shit!!

As for the "dog and pony show." I think it will for the most part end when Michelle becomes a member of the LPGA Tour & can play a full schedule. That doesn't mean you won't see her at any type of open qualifying for a so called "mens" event or the occasional mens professional tournament on any tour.

JPinMaryland

09-17-2006, 02:26 AM

It just seems like a spectacle. Defined as: putting her out there when she has no real shot to compete or challenge or make the cut, and the only reason is to make money.

WHich is what it seems like they are doing: making tons of money on her now because 84Lumber can sell 20,000 extra tickets. Fine, great, its the american way.

SO 84lumber makes an extra $2 million.

Wie makes several millions in endorsements or whatever.

But maybe there are millions of golf fans who are turned off by the whole thing. Is this a real possibility? Or will sports media just keep hyping her?

sq764

09-17-2006, 02:52 AM

We're reading a different article in regards to driving stats.

Who exactly said she belongs on the mens tour?

Who says she's on the mens tour?

Non Member Sponsor Exemptions
LPGA Tour - Six Sponsor Exemptions
PGA Tour - Eight Sponsor Exemptions(obviously 8 aren't coming Michelle's way.)

As I have stated before her playing opportunities are limited as of right now, so she is going to take tournament experience wherever she can. If some men can't handle the fact that she is playing events on a men's tour, well tough shit!!

As for the "dog and pony show." I think it will for the most part end when Michelle becomes a member of the LPGA Tour & can play a full schedule. That doesn't mean you won't see her at any type of open qualifying for a so called "mens" event or the occasional mens professional tournament on any tour.
Tee, it's obvoius you like the girl and defend what she is doing... At what point do you admit she's completely overmatches?

Tee

09-17-2006, 03:29 AM

Tee, it's obvoius you like the girl and defend what she is doing... At what point do you admit she's completely overmatches?

Would you like to know how completely wrong you are with the above statement. While we in some ways share the same opinion the big difference is I know how the golf world works just a bit & look past this issue at just face value.

I have also come to the realization that I have no power to change the intent of corporate sponsors & tournament directors in charge of running professional golf tournaments.

Making a statement that Ms Wie is overmatched is rather moto thinking when it comes to playing on the PGA Tour. Of course she is overmatched & will continue to be overmatched. Lessons learned watching the greatest in the world will despite your beliefs lead to greater success on the womens tour where she will be spending the majority of her time in the near future.

How bout you change your focus to say Natalie Gulbis? She hasn't won a damn thing either in nearly 5 full seasons on tour & does get a fair amount of media attention like her own tv show, swimsuit calendars etc, etc.

How bout Stacey P trying to qualify for the mens tour the past couple years & failing in the first stage. I suppose she shouldn't even have tried because she is overmatched. But it's ok for her to do so, cuz she is spending her own money & isn't being given a free ride right?

bigmack

09-17-2006, 03:48 AM

A well written art by Chirstine Brennan from USA Today includes:

...Wie told reporters, "Hopefully, I will be able to play the Ryder Cup one day. That would be awesome, and I think it is totally possible."

Michelle Wie is lucky she is 16, and equally fortunate that most in the media still are giving her a very appropriate free pass. Had 35-year-old Annika Sorenstam, the best woman player in the world and a golfer more polished than Wie is today, made such a straight-faced pronouncement, the cacophony of guffaws would have been audible from here to the K Club....

..."Some of the criticisms of Michelle's playing on the PGA Tour are very logically thought out," B.J. Wie said. "However, they do not fully understand the capitalistic market mechanism. Did you see the large galleries following Michelle yesterday despite her first-round score of 77?" So Dad is into the marketing of his only child. That's hardly a surprise. He isn't the first father to be so inclined, and he won't be the last, but he certainly is the one we'll hear from the most in the next few years...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/brennan/2006-09-06-michelle-wie_x.htm

rastajenk

09-17-2006, 03:50 AM

Tee

09-17-2006, 04:02 AM

I just don't see how "lessons learned watching the greatest in the world" will contribute more to her future success than standing over putts now that really mean something; it's that kind of experience that will eventually pay better dividends, in my humble yet flawless opinion.

I take the above as to mean she should be playing against the women where she has had a great deal of success. Where she can stand over putts that mean something.

For hopefully the last time, she is not a LPGA Tour Member & is limited to 6 sponsor exemptions & exemptions that she has qualified for via top finishes in other events!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There might just be something that she can see in the mens game that is not available in the womens game. I believe Annika Sorenstam found that out at the Colonial & has used that info to her advantage ever since.

Every putt you stand over means something whether it be on a professional tour, in U.S. Open Qualifying, a state open, club championship or just a day at the course playing for a few bucks with your buddies.

sq764

09-17-2006, 10:35 AM

How bout you change your focus to say Natalie Gulbis? She hasn't won a damn thing either in nearly 5 full seasons on tour & does get a fair amount of media attention like her own tv show, swimsuit calendars etc, etc.

I don't recall Gulbis ever playing a men's event.. What does she have to do with what Wie is doing?

I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one.. Gulbis gets attention for the same reason that Kournakova gets attention

sq764

09-17-2006, 10:38 AM

There might just be something that she can see in the mens game that is not available in the womens game. I believe Annika Sorenstam found that out at the Colonial & has used that info to her advantage ever since.

There was something Sorenstam found out in the Colonial - she found out she is completely overmatched against men and was smart enough to stick to a place she could win at. Wie isn't this bright yet.. Maybe she's not old enough to get it

JustRalph

09-17-2006, 12:53 PM

[center][left]...Wie told reporters, "Hopefully, I will be able to play the Ryder Cup one day. That would be awesome, and I think it is totally possible."

Michelle Wie is lucky she is 16, and equally fortunate that most in the media still are giving her a very appropriate free pass. Had 35-year-old Annika Sorenstam, the best woman player in the world and a golfer more polished than Wie is today, made such a straight-faced pronouncement, the cacophony of guffaws would have been audible from here to the K Club....

I don't get this......... Annika Sorenstam has peaked.........we don't know how far this kid could go? I admit, I don't think she will ever play on the Ryder cup team.......... but we are talking about a women who probably won't improve, and her best days are behind her...........and a 16 yr old who hasn't shown her potential..........two totally different scenarios. The dig at her in the paragraph above is a little much.

sq764

09-17-2006, 01:58 PM

I don't get this......... Annika Sorenstam has peaked.........we don't know how far this kid could go? I admit, I don't think she will ever play on the Ryder cup team.......... but we are talking about a women who probably won't improve, and her best days are behind her...........and a 16 yr old who hasn't shown her potential..........two totally different scenarios. The dig at her in the paragraph above is a little much.
But I think we are forgetting the obvious here.. Sorenstam is the greatest women's player in the world, who has won everything there is to win. Wie has won exactly nothing in her career. Mentioning them in the same breath is ridiculous

JustRalph

09-17-2006, 06:02 PM

not when you are speaking of the future.

Tee

09-17-2006, 06:05 PM

I don't recall Gulbis ever playing a men's event.. What does she have to do with what Wie is doing?

I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one.. Gulbis gets attention for the same reason that Kournakova gets attention

The only comparison btwn Natalie Gulbis and Anna Kournikova should be kept to their athletic achievements. I have often said that Natalie is the Anna K of golf, because she hasn't won, but I believe she will take care of that in the near future. But that really wasn't the point of my entering that into the discussion, it was more for a specific response.

I think by your criteria there are plenty of men touring professionals that shouldn't be playing the tour either. Maybe they should be at home cooking dinner or barefoot & pregnant? :lol:

Tee

09-17-2006, 06:15 PM

There was something Sorenstam found out in the Colonial - she found out she is completely overmatched against men and was smart enough to stick to a place she could win at. Wie isn't this bright yet.. Maybe she's not old enough to get it
Annika, your "greatest women's player in the world" used the Colonial as an experiment to better herself on the LPGA Tour, but to say whe was completely overmatched is laughable.

Hypothetically speaking if Annika were to play a complete season on tour, get to know the courses she could have a bit of success. Now if she were to come back for that sophomore season with all the knowledge of the first, knowing what venues fits her game, how to tactically play the courses etc, etc - she might just fall into the top 125.

But this will never happen because of the success she is having & has had on the LPGA Tour. She is chasing records, much like Tiger Woods is, to become the greatest to ever play the game - well on paper anyway.

sq764

09-17-2006, 06:15 PM

Tee

09-17-2006, 06:19 PM

Like another poster said, the cuteness of it has worn off. It's getting painful to watch and she's starting to make an embarrassment of the whole thing as she gets worse on each tour. By getting crushed every event she enters (finishing dead last in her last 2), she's only confirming the thoughts of many that she shouldn't be doing it.

Scott,

When you can break 100 from the junior, red, or white set of tees counting every single shot & knowing & using the rules of golf I think you can make the above statement stick. Until then I don't believe you have any idea how bad she is playing or that she is getting worse with each passing PGA Tour event.

sq764

09-17-2006, 07:07 PM

Scott,

When you can break 100 from the junior, red, or white set of tees counting every single shot & knowing & using the rules of golf I think you can make the above statement stick. Until then I don't believe you have any idea how bad she is playing or that she is getting worse with each passing PGA Tour event.
We'll have to agree to disagree.. Just me, some other folks on here and most pro goolfers and writers will have to talk amongst ourselves :-)

Bottom line, she's getting smoked week in and week out. Finishing dead last is again only proving what a lot of people feel about her. And her putting is absolutely attrocious.. Why doesn't she spend the 2 rounds she plays horribly in every week on a local course learning how to putt?

Wouldn't that serve her a little better?

sq764

09-17-2006, 07:13 PM

Lessons learned watching the greatest in the world will despite your beliefs lead to greater success on the womens tour where she will be spending the majority of her time in the near future.

And you have no idea if this will happen, it's pure speculation.

Tee

09-17-2006, 07:43 PM

And you have no idea if this will happen, it's pure speculation.

No it's an educated guess, a bit more than just pure speculation. You have seen her results on the LPGA Tour right?

Tee

09-17-2006, 07:53 PM

We'll have to agree to disagree.. Just me, some other folks on here and most pro goolfers and writers will have to talk amongst ourselves :-)

Bottom line, she's getting smoked week in and week out. Finishing dead last is again only proving what a lot of people feel about her. And her putting is absolutely attrocious.. Why doesn't she spend the 2 rounds she plays horribly in every week on a local course learning how to putt?

Wouldn't that serve her a little better?

Can't speak for other members of PaceAdvantage & I'll set playing professionals aside, cuz that seems like a given. I would say a great number of the golf media play the game & carry a handicap. They also have knowledge in the area of course rating and slope. These same people also know that course architecture & setup is a bit different btwn the PGA & LPGA Tour. Finally these people know that sometimes an 80 is better than a 74 & sometimes that 74 is really a 68. How up to date is your understanding of this facet of golf?

So for you in layman terms, she knows how to putt, but maybe it's a bit more difficult on the PGA Tour than it is on the LPGA Tour? Therefore better results should be forthcoming in the Samsung World Championship.

JPinMaryland

09-17-2006, 08:27 PM

sq764

09-17-2006, 09:02 PM

JPinMaryland

09-17-2006, 10:30 PM

Dont talk back to me until you are a 1 handicap or better.

Tee

09-18-2006, 12:18 AM

"Lessons learned watching the greatest in the world will despite your beliefs lead to greater success on the womens tour where she will be spending the majority of her time in the near future..."

Lots of people keep saying this (not just here) as if it's true but where is the examples of that happening? I dont recall Tiger Woods doing it that way, or Jack NIcklaus or anyone in golf. What examples do you have of this happening?

Here's two of the last few paragraphs form the article link that big mack posted.

By Christine Brennan,

"Amy Alcott, a member of the LPGA Hall of Fame, can relate to what Michelle Wie is putting herself through. In a far calmer media era — and, correspondingly, a far less lucrative financial era — Alcott turned pro at 18 and won for the first time in only her third LPGA tournament, on her 19th birthday in 1975.

"I think she's an amazing talent," Alcott said Wednesday. "At her age, I was still playing amateur golf and playing with men from the back tees at Riviera to sharpen my game. The thing about Michelle competing against men, I think people get a big kick out of that. I don't spite her for doing that, not at all. I'd love to see her be successful because she has a lot of talent."

I know for a fact that Pat Hurst did the same thing, meaning playing with men of equal of greater abilities, from the back tees, for the cash to sharpen her game.

Tiger Woods & Jack Nicklaus are horrible examples imo. Even so do you really think they never learned a damn thing from anyone with greater ability or experience that led to achieve what they have in the game of golf?

How bout guys like Chad Campbell who went from the Hooters Tour to the Nationwide Tour & now to the PGA Tour. Chris DiMarco spent time on the Canadian Tour and many years on the Nike Tour before making it to the big stage. These guys and countless others must have done something to climb up the ladder, but it couldn't have been from competing with better players, learning from them & just plain old experience & hard work.

I know this much, if you are a 30 handicapper and continue to play with those of your own abilities, you will probably remain a 30 handicapper.

PaceAdvantage

09-18-2006, 01:09 AM

I just love when people pull that condesending angle.. I mean on this site, we have all , at one time or another, referenced a 'bad ride'.. But as I recall, I don't know of anyone on here that was a jockey..

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but I would venture a guess that a much larger population of this board has come much closer to being Tiger Woods, then they ever have of being Laffit Pincay Jr....

Tee

09-18-2006, 01:11 AM

Hey hey.. Didn't he just tell you that he knows the 'facets' of golf?? Isn't that enough for you!?!?! :lol: :lol: :lol:

I just love when people pull that condesending angle.. I mean on this site, we have all , at one time or another, referenced a 'bad ride'.. But as I recall, I don't know of anyone on here that was a jockey..

From the above response I guess you don't know much about course rating, slope ratings & the handicap system.

Put Michelle Wie's scores from both the LPGA Tour and the PGA Tour into the GHIN System based upon the tournament course rating & slope rating & I would venture to say quite a few people would be singing a different tune.

For example the Nemacolin Woodlands Resort -- Mystic Rock Golf Course where the 84 Lumber Classic was just played is a par 72, 7,516 yard track with a 78.1 rating and a 151 slope from the championship tees. Now let's compare that to the womens U.S. Open played at Newport Country Club Par 72, 6,482 yards with a rating of 71.3 & slope of 130.

Do you see the difference or am I just being condesending? Just for future reference I don't believe it's condescension when the person I'm speaking with doesn't know jack shit about the topic at hand. It's more informative if that person will allow the info to be helpful.

Ignorance truly is bliss & to quote a member of this site "Opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one." :)

sq764

09-18-2006, 11:09 AM

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but I would venture a guess that a much larger population of this board has come much closer to being Tiger Woods, then they ever have of being Laffit Pincay Jr....
EXACTLY!! So you would think people here would have more leverage to comment on golfers than jockeys.. Yet we are being told otherwise..

sq764

09-18-2006, 11:11 AM

From the above response I guess you don't know much about course rating, slope ratings & the handicap system.

Put Michelle Wie's scores from both the LPGA Tour and the PGA Tour into the GHIN System based upon the tournament course rating & slope rating & I would venture to say quite a few people would be singing a different tune.

For example the Nemacolin Woodlands Resort -- Mystic Rock Golf Course where the 84 Lumber Classic was just played is a par 72, 7,516 yard track with a 78.1 rating and a 151 slope from the championship tees. Now let's compare that to the womens U.S. Open played at Newport Country Club Par 72, 6,482 yards with a rating of 71.3 & slope of 130.

Do you see the difference or am I just being condesending? Just for future reference I don't believe it's condescension when the person I'm speaking with doesn't know jack shit about the topic at hand. It's more informative if that person will allow the info to be helpful.

Ignorance truly is bliss & to quote a member of this site "Opinions are like assholes - everyone's got one." :)
What I think is that you are trying too hard to make a case for this girl getting lambasted week in and week out. Let it go guy, people are a little too intelligent here to listen to excuses.. Sorry.. Good try though bud..

JPinMaryland

09-18-2006, 11:51 AM

Pat Hurst did that? Wow, I didnt know that.

Who the hell is Pat Hurst anyways?

sq764

09-18-2006, 12:05 PM

Pat Hurst did that? Wow, I didnt know that.

Who the hell is Pat Hurst anyways?
Wasn't she the chick that got kidnapped and then later pardeoned by Jimmy Carter?

Wonder where she found time to hit from the back tees..

rastajenk

09-18-2006, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by rastajenk
I just don't see how "lessons learned watching the greatest in the world" will contribute more to her future success than standing over putts now that really mean something; it's that kind of experience that will eventually pay better dividends, in my humble yet flawless opinion.

"I take the above as to mean she should be playing against the women where she has had a great deal of success. Where she can stand over putts that mean something.

"For hopefully the last time, she is not a LPGA Tour Member & is limited to 6 sponsor exemptions & exemptions that she has qualified for via top finishes in other events!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Yeah, we get that point. Maybe she should still be competing in amateur events, junior events, and other competitions she is eligible for and cleaning up in those, and moving on as she gains real, hard-earned exemptions. The way Woods did. The way Nicklaus did. The way you, Tee, pointed out that DiMarco and Campbell and countless others did. You say every putt means something? I don't think those putts on Friday meant anything to her other than the only people she was going to finish ahead of had already withdrawn. There is no competitive edge in that.

Tee

09-18-2006, 04:12 PM

Pat Hurst did that? Wow, I didnt know that.

Who the hell is Pat Hurst anyways?

http://lpga.com/player_results.aspx?id=125

Tee

09-18-2006, 04:23 PM

What I think is that you are trying too hard to make a case for this girl getting lambasted week in and week out. Let it go guy, people are a little too intelligent here to listen to excuses.. Sorry.. Good try though bud..

Whatever, like I said before we share the same opinions in reference to Michelle Wie. I however can see that she is basically playing the same golf wherever she tees it up. The difficulty of PGA Tour set up courses are leading to her scores which in "differential" terms aren't much higher that what she shoots on the women's tour.

Just trying to get the too intelligent here to look past what can be seen at face value.

I used to think that the biggest joke was Michelle Wie thinking that she could actually compete against the men, play in the Ryder Cup etc. Now I realize the even bigger joke is people on message boards trying to pass off as knowledgable in the game of golf.

Anyone involved in this discussion prove me wrong with your current handicap & achievements along with a well thought out response to why a 77 - 67.9/116 is not a better score than a 77 - 73.2/123.

Or would u rather poke fun to prove ignorance?

Tee

09-18-2006, 04:28 PM

Yeah, we get that point. Maybe she should still be competing in amateur events, junior events, and other competitions she is eligible for and cleaning up in those, and moving on as she gains real, hard-earned exemptions. The way Woods did. The way Nicklaus did. The way you, Tee, pointed out that DiMarco and Campbell and countless others did. You say every putt means something? I don't think those putts on Friday meant anything to her other than the only people she was going to finish ahead of had already withdrawn. There is no competitive edge in that.

Well being that she is a professional, maybe she can no longer play in amateur events, junior events, and other competitions she is eligible for. :lol: :D

Perhaps that part of your post was just a slip of the tongue, er finger?

sq764

09-18-2006, 04:37 PM

Now I realize the even bigger joke is people on message boards trying to pass off as knowledgable in the game of golf.

Yeah, how could you EVER be perceived as arrogant or condecensing..

Tee

09-18-2006, 04:37 PM

Pat Hurst did that? Wow, I didnt know that.

Who the hell is Pat Hurst anyways?

One more thing,

The fact that you don't know who Pat Hurst is speaks volumes.

I guess you didn't catch any coverage of this year's U.S. Womens Open?

sq764

09-18-2006, 04:39 PM

Well being that she is a professional, maybe she can no longer play in amateur events, junior events, and other competitions she is eligible for. :lol: :D

Perhaps that part of your post was just a slip of the tongue, er finger?
As usual, you seem to take the wrong part of the post to attack.

He makes an excellent point in that how can you say 'every putt counts' for her when she is so far behind in every single event, they NEVER matter. Does it matter whether she finishes in dead last or 125th? If you think so, sure..

I mean let's get real here.. She hasn't had a pressure putt on the PGA tour in her life..

sq764

09-18-2006, 04:42 PM

One more thing,

The fact that you don't know who Pat Hurst is speaks volumes.

I guess you didn't catch any coverage of this year's U.S. Womens Open?
I just noticed Paula Creamer is ranked higher in the world than Wie.. That's interesting to me. Wonder why she isn't getting into these men's events..
Just thinknig out loud

JPinMaryland

09-18-2006, 05:02 PM

JPinMaryland

09-18-2006, 05:06 PM

sq764

09-18-2006, 05:17 PM

And by the way, what exactly does Pat Hurst prove? I am asking for an example of someone from golf or any sport who became a super star by playing way over their head.

Pat Hurst has 5 career victories at age 37; she's 7th in money this year but hardly a great player.
Pat Hurst has to be used because non of the great LPGA players went this ridiculous rout.. It's somewhat selective thinking

Tee

09-18-2006, 07:35 PM

Tee

09-18-2006, 07:40 PM

Did Amy Alcott play against men or not? I am unclear from the example posted what exactly that was in resonse to. The quote from Brennan did not say whether or not she had played against men. So am asking: did she play against men?

The example did say Amy Alcott played against the men, but I'm sure that example won't count cuz it wasn't in an offical sanctioned event.

Here's the specific line,
"I think she's an amazing talent," Alcott said Wednesday. "At her age, I was still playing amateur golf and playing with men from the back tees at Riviera to sharpen my game."

Playing with men from the back tees at Riviera to sharpen my game.

Riviera is no dog track & for Amy Alcott to say she was sharpening her game she must not have been playing with men she was on par with.

Tee

09-18-2006, 07:46 PM

As usual, you seem to take the wrong part of the post to attack.
Nothing like the pot calling the kettle black eh?

He makes an excellent point in that how can you say 'every putt counts' for her when she is so far behind in every single event, they NEVER matter. Does it matter whether she finishes in dead last or 125th? If you think so, sure..

I mean let's get real here.. She hasn't had a pressure putt on the PGA tour in her life..

Another prime example of how you have never played competitive golf & really do no have an understanding of what is involved. For a golfer every putt counts even if you're still gonna finish last. There's a big difference between shooting 77 instead of 80 & 81 instead of 85 & this comes from every putt counts. Heck I've worked damn hard in the last few holes of a tournament round when the wheels have pretty much fallen off just to save a few strokes & most of those strokes are saved with the flatstick setup by the wedges.

Tee

09-18-2006, 07:47 PM

I just noticed Paula Creamer is ranked higher in the world than Wie.. That's interesting to me. Wonder why she isn't getting into these men's events..
Just thinknig out loud

Guess you didn't catch the change in criteria in the women's world ranking system either.

Tee

09-18-2006, 07:58 PM

Pat Hurst has to be used because non of the great LPGA players went this ridiculous rout.. It's somewhat selective thinking

Times are a changing, golf isn't what is was 10 years ago etc, etc. I don't expect this to be anything close to a permanent change, but a change nonetheless.

Just tell me this, in past history how many future female playing professionals could match up talent wise with Michelle Wie at the age of 12, for that matter the age of 10?

Tee

09-18-2006, 08:05 PM

Yeah, how could you EVER be perceived as arrogant or condecensing..

Then answer the question in detail with your superior knowledge on this subject.

"Anyone involved in this discussion prove me wrong with your current handicap & achievements along with a well thought out response to why a 77 - 67.9/116 is not a better score than a 77 - 73.2/123."

Let me help you out with three little words that will let u off the hook.

I don't know

sq764

09-18-2006, 08:34 PM

Times are a changing, golf isn't what is was 10 years ago etc, etc. I don't expect this to be anything close to a permanent change, but a change nonetheless.

Just tell me this, in past history how many future female playing professionals could match up talent wise with Michelle Wie at the age of 12, for that matter the age of 10?
How do you measure talent?

sq764

09-18-2006, 08:36 PM

Then answer the question in detail with your superior knowledge on this subject.

"Anyone involved in this discussion prove me wrong with your current handicap & achievements along with a well thought out response to why a 77 - 67.9/116 is not a better score than a 77 - 73.2/123."

Let me help you out with three little words that will let u off the hook.

I don't know
I never said I have superior knowledge in this subject. You are the ONLY one trying to convince everyoen here that you do. Get over yourself, no one gives a shit that you have played recreational golf. You're making yourself out to be quite a pompous jackass with all this "I am the superior intellect on this subject, you all know nothing". Just sounds flat out stupid.

sq764

09-18-2006, 08:38 PM

Guess you didn't catch the change in criteria in the women's world ranking system either.
Is she ranked higher than Wie? Yes or no?

I know you can figure this one out, I know ya can!

Tee

09-19-2006, 12:38 AM

How do you measure talent?
Well when you look at Michelle Wie's record there's quite a bit of youngest to accomplish this & youngest to accomplish that. Must have a bit of talent to achieve these things no?

I never said I have superior knowledge in this subject. You are the ONLY one trying to convince everyoen here that you do. Get over yourself, no one gives a shit that you have played recreational golf. You're making yourself out to be quite a pompous jackass with all this "I am the superior intellect on this subject, you all know nothing". Just sounds flat out stupid.
What you say in the messages that are posted on this board are as if you are very informed. I'm sorry that I have spent the last 23+ years of my life playing the game & bettering myself both with physical and mental knowledge. I take great exception to the "recreational" comment. I haven't kept a handicap below 4 for the past 17 years with Championship Flight wins & numerous cashes in tournaments by having a "golf hobby."

I have yet to read a post in this or other threads that you have started that would lead me to believe that others have a great deal of knowledge of the game. Self important & a stupid person I am not, it's too bad that you feel you must have the stage in each and every subject that you choose to engage. This just happens to be one subject where you are as you say "overmatched."
Is she ranked higher than Wie? Yes or no?

I know you can figure this one out, I know ya can!
Same ol, same ol with the mighty Quinn. If I don't know what's going on I'll just go ahead and mock the person that does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_World_Golf_Rankings

Bottom line for most people with Michelle Wie is the gender issue. A 16(almost 17) year old young man in the same position wouldn't be treated in the same mannner. I can't recall any talk around here about a young Justin Rose missing 21 cuts in a row after turning professional. He should have quit the game since he was so overmatched.

sq764

09-19-2006, 12:44 AM

Well when you look at Michelle Wie's record there's quite a bit of youngest to accomplish this & youngest to accomplish that. Must have a bit of talent to achieve these things no?

What you say in the messages that are posted on this board are as if you are very informed. I'm sorry that I have spent the last 23+ years of my life playing the game & bettering myself both with physical and mental knowledge. I take great exception to the "recreational" comment. I haven't kept a handicap below 4 for the past 17 years with Championship Flight wins & numerous cashes in tournaments by having a "golf hobby."

I have yet to read a post in this or other threads that you have started that would lead me to believe that others have a great deal of knowledge of the game. Self important & a stupid person I am not, it's too bad that you feel you must have the stage in each and every subject that you choose to engage. This just happens to be one subject where you are as you say "overmatched."

Same ol, same ol with the mighty Quinn. If I don't know what's going on I'll just go ahead and mock the person that does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_World_Golf_Rankings

Bottom line for most people with Michelle Wie is the gender issue. A 16(almost 17) year old young man in the same position wouldn't be treated in the same mannner. I can't recall any talk around here about a young Justin Rose missing 21 cuts in a row after turning professional. He should have quit the game since he was so overmatched.
What has Wie won? Just answer that.. thanks.

No one cares about your recreational golf. Sorry bud.

You're just angry cause people are making a fool of you in this thread. Get over it. It's part of life. Everyone looks foolish sometimes. It's just your time now. Sorry.

You've made yourself look ridiculous in this thread. Move onto something you might know - whatever that is

sq764

09-19-2006, 12:48 AM

Well when you look at Michelle Wie's record there's quite a bit of youngest to accomplish this & youngest to accomplish that. Must have a bit of talent to achieve these things no?

What you say in the messages that are posted on this board are as if you are very informed. I'm sorry that I have spent the last 23+ years of my life playing the game & bettering myself both with physical and mental knowledge. I take great exception to the "recreational" comment. I haven't kept a handicap below 4 for the past 17 years with Championship Flight wins & numerous cashes in tournaments by having a "golf hobby."

I have yet to read a post in this or other threads that you have started that would lead me to believe that others have a great deal of knowledge of the game. Self important & a stupid person I am not, it's too bad that you feel you must have the stage in each and every subject that you choose to engage. This just happens to be one subject where you are as you say "overmatched."

Same ol, same ol with the mighty Quinn. If I don't know what's going on I'll just go ahead and mock the person that does.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_World_Golf_Rankings

Bottom line for most people with Michelle Wie is the gender issue. A 16(almost 17) year old young man in the same position wouldn't be treated in the same mannner. I can't recall any talk around here about a young Justin Rose missing 21 cuts in a row after turning professional. He should have quit the game since he was so overmatched.
Justin Rose didn't have another, higher, tour to play did he?

When Wie wins ANYTHING, talk to me. Until then, as many others have blatantly proved to you, she doesn't belong playing men's events.. Not sure how else to spell it out for you, sparky.

Tee

09-19-2006, 01:11 AM

Justin Rose didn't have another, higher, tour to play did he?

When Wie wins ANYTHING, talk to me. Until then, as many others have blatantly proved to you, she doesn't belong playing men's events.. Not sure how else to spell it out for you, sparky.

Yes in fact the United States PGA Tour qualifying school was available to young Mr Rose just as was the Euro Tour School. Have I stated before that I agree with you on the second part? There isn't a damn thing you or I can do about that.

By your criteria some men don't belong playing "mens" events. Steven Bowditch has played 18 events and made 1 cut with earnings of $5,640. Craig Perks - 1 cut in 15 tries with earnings of $11,800. But I'm sure he's ok cuz he's won on the tour, winning the 2002 Players Championship. There's a few more players who have played a fairly full schedule and made the weekend in less than 1/4 of total tournaments played.

So when Michelle wins on the LPGA Tour it's ok with you if she plays a full schedule on the PGA Tour? :D

sq764

09-19-2006, 01:30 AM

Yes in fact the United States PGA Tour qualifying school was available to young Mr Rose just as was the Euro Tour School. Have I stated before that I agree with you on the second part? There isn't a damn thing you or I can do about that.

By your criteria some men don't belong playing "mens" events. Steven Bowditch has played 18 events and made 1 cut with earnings of $5,640. Craig Perks - 1 cut in 15 tries with earnings of $11,800. But I'm sure he's ok cuz he's won on the tour, winning the 2002 Players Championship. There's a few more players who have played a fairly full schedule and made the weekend in less than 1/4 of total tournaments played.

So when Michelle wins on the LPGA Tour it's ok with you if she plays a full schedule on the PGA Tour? :D
She's becoming a joke on the pga tour events. You can ignore it, that's cool. But the tummy aches and getting crushed in dead last every week are not cute anymore, they are flat out embarrassing..

PaceAdvantage

09-19-2006, 02:00 AM

No one cares about your recreational golf. Sorry bud.

You're just angry cause people are making a fool of you in this thread. Get over it. It's part of life. Everyone looks foolish sometimes. It's just your time now. Sorry.

You've made yourself look ridiculous in this thread. Move onto something you might know - whatever that is

I dread stepping into another golf thread, but I feel I must.

SQ, are you serious? Why don't YOU ease up, cause if I started a poll right now asking who looks like the bigger fool, my money goes on you to win.

Is it that difficult for you to accept that somebody else, OTHER THAN YOU, is able to provide more accurate info or opinions on a given subject (this one being pro golf)?

I mean, seriously....if you or anyone else can post a DETAILED reply here showing how or why TEE has posted something foolish and/or ridiculous in THIS THREAD, I'm all ears. No name calling, just something with MEAT ON THE BONE.

melman

09-19-2006, 05:54 AM

Tee

Thanks for your many great posts I follow the golf tours and I learned something from your posts.

rastajenk

09-19-2006, 08:26 AM

PA, you could try post #34 for starters.

sq764

09-19-2006, 12:47 PM

I mean, seriously....if you or anyone else can post a DETAILED reply here showing how or why TEE has posted something foolish and/or ridiculous in THIS THREAD, I'm all ears. No name calling, just something with MEAT ON THE BONE.
You obviously haven't read through this thread if you are stating this.

I guess his insults are more subtle and more broad than mine. I will try to work on my structure..

1st time lasix

09-19-2006, 02:16 PM

sq764

09-19-2006, 02:36 PM

she might just fall into the top 125.

Are you kidding! No way...never...never would Anika or any other woman EVER be in the top 125 for a Men's tour season. If you think so....you are dillusional! You also obviously have no idea how good the guys hovering from 100-130 truly are. Do you actually think that that Anika could beat a guy like Paul Azinger {number 118} over a full season! Get real!
Hey, didn't he already make it clear that you have no right to comment on golfers, golf clubs, golf balls, golf tees, greens, golf pants, birdies, eagles, bogeys, golf bags, golf towels, water or sand UNLESS you have the golf knowledge he does? And it's pretty clear no one does..

Come on man, get with the program..

1st time lasix

09-19-2006, 03:50 PM

[QUOTE=sq764]Hey, didn't he already make it clear that you have no right to comment on golfers, golf clubs, golf balls, golf tees, greens, golf pants, birdies, eagles, bogeys, golf bags, golf towels, water or sand UNLESS you have the golf knowledge he does? And it's pretty clear no one does..

Come on man, get with the program.. Good one! Made me laugh...:lol: In fact.... I am a member of a regional private golf club in Florida and across the street from Foxwoods in Connecticut called Lake of isles. Although now a senior.....I carry a two handicap and have won the club championship at each facility. Played Div 1 years ago. May not know as much as Tee.... but I do know this.....even the strongest woman players cannot play with the top men. Not now and not ever. Just a function of muscle strength and yards with ALL clubs...not just the tee ball. I agree with most...the Michelle Wie experiment getting exemptions in to Men's events should take a rest. By the way....the Brennan columnist from USA today that was quoted is an idiot. She has proven time and again that she is so far from center on the woman's sports issues that I won't read her any more. Remember her Martha Burke articles?

Tee

09-19-2006, 04:02 PM

she might just fall into the top 125.

Are you kidding! No way...never...never would Anika or any other woman EVER be in the top 125 for a Men's tour season. If you think so....you are dillusional! You also obviously have no idea how good the guys hovering from 100-130 truly are. Do you actually think that that Anika could beat a guy like Paul Azinger {number 118} over a full season! Get real!

The usage of the word might was purposeful. I didn't say should, didn't say would, didn't say definitely. Didn't say out & out I think she could. I just left the door open as a possibility & believe the post also mentioned this after already playing a full season & pointed towards a possibly more comfortable sophomore season. Furthermore it was a totally hypothetical & also mentioned that it "will never happen."

Hardly Delusional!!

Oh yeah, about the guys hovering from 100-130. I have a pretty good idea how good the guy at is sitting at 130 & any other Colorado product around the same age.

Tee

09-19-2006, 04:21 PM

By the way....the Brennan columnist from USA today that was quoted is an idiot. She has proven time and again that she is so far from center on the woman's sports issues that I won't read her any more. Remember her Martha Burke articles?

FTL,

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my usage of that column was limited to an example of another female player sharpening her game against the men. Not as a plug for Michelle Wie continuing to play in PGA Tour Events.

Tee

09-19-2006, 04:35 PM

Hey, didn't he already make it clear that you have no right to comment on golfers, golf clubs, golf balls, golf tees, greens, golf pants, birdies, eagles, bogeys, golf bags, golf towels, water or sand UNLESS you have the golf knowledge he does? And it's pretty clear no one does..

Come on man, get with the program..

This is exactly along the lines of what PA is talking about - not much MEAT ON THE BONE.

You do however have a knack for colorful embellishment of what anyone says that in contrary to your beliefs.

sq764

09-19-2006, 04:37 PM

This is exactly along the lines of what PA is talking about - not much MEAT ON THE BONE.

You do however have a knack for colorful embellishment of what anyone says that in contrary to your beliefs.
And you have a knack for being incredibly arrogant and insulting to anyone that posts to the contrary of what you believe.

You're a legend in your own mind.

bigmack

09-19-2006, 05:13 PM

Hate to jump in the foray, but then again...

The conventional wisdom @ this point is that no matter what the stats are, no matter what Nike wants of her, no matter how her Dad feels that she's drawing crowds that would not ordinarily be there... Her involvement at that level right now is just plain silly.

I belong to three clubs - Del Mar in SD, Big Horn & Monterey in Palm Desert - Trust me when I say not one person that I know is as giddy for her involvement at that level as you Tee. As mentioned previously, the novelty has worn thin. But hey, if you think she belongs there, live it up.

Here's 4 arts critical of her attempts, there's about 215 others.
http://www.theage.com.au/news/Sport/Wie-is-damaging-womens-golf-says-Sevil/2006/09/18/1158431633567.html
http://www.thedesertsun.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060917/COLUMNS05/609170331/1235/sports
http://www.bloggernews.net/2006/09/michelle-wie-is-bad-for-womens-sports.html
http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/tim.mcdonald/2006/09/15/tune_in_next_time_for_the_michelle_wie_c

PaceAdvantage

09-19-2006, 06:18 PM

Did Tee ever say he thinks she belongs at this level?

PaceAdvantage

09-19-2006, 06:20 PM

PA, you could try post #34 for starters.

Could you explain WHY, in some detail, post #34 is foolish and/or ridiculous?

bigmack

09-19-2006, 07:20 PM

Did Tee ever say he thinks she belongs at this level?
Michelle has no status anywhere & will take any excemption she can get to gain experience while waiting to become a member of the LPGA Tour.
Go practice on the range and spare us the yap about playing in the Rider Cup et al. She's hyped enough already & more than likely doesn't need someone on a horse board revelling in her taking advantage of exemptions. You enter a tournament to be competitive - Not to be a side show with an ability far less than the other competitors.

I'm out on this - primarily cause I don't give a rats ass.

sq764

09-19-2006, 07:32 PM

Did Tee ever say he thinks she belongs at this level?
PA, first you say "Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but I would venture a guess that a much larger population of this board has come much closer to being Tiger Woods, then they ever have of being Laffit Pincay Jr...."

Then you defend this guy with his pompous, arorgant attitude that he plays golf above the recreational level so he has a superior opinion to other's..

I don't think this guy needs another mommy or daddy here, he has spewed out enough insults to go around, he shouldn't be shocked when multiple people shove some of it back to him..You either give it and learn to take it or shut your mouth entirely. I think we know which path he has chosen.

If he doesn't like everyone disagreeing with him, then that's too bad.

sq764

09-19-2006, 07:34 PM

Go practice on the range and spare us the yap about playing in the Rider Cup et al. She's hyped enough already & more than likely doesn't need someone on a horse board revelling in her taking advantage of exemptions. You enter a tournament to be competitive - Not to be a side show with an ability far less than the other competitors.

I'm out on this - primarily cause I don't give a rats ass.
If you've seen her putt, screw the range, she should be working on getting the ball into the clown's mouth and avoiding the windmill..

Tee

09-19-2006, 07:48 PM

Hate to jump in the foray, but then again...

The conventional wisdom @ this point is that no matter what the stats are, no matter what Nike wants of her, no matter how her Dad feels that she's drawing crowds that would not ordinarily be there... Her involvement at that level right now is just plain silly.

I belong to three clubs - Del Mar in SD, Big Horn & Monterey in Palm Desert. Trust me when I say not one person that I know is as giddy for her involvement at that level as you Tee. As mentioned previously, the novelty has worn thin. But hey, if you think she belongs there, live it up.

A certain level of understanding doesn't not equate to giddiness.

Did Tee ever say he thinks she belongs at this level?
No & for the record I don't think she belongs at this level.

I also don't believe that the Nike, Sony & Omega are paying her to sit at home on the couch. So combine that with the fact that she has no status, is still in high school & is playing on a limited schedule has imo led to her to play events on both the men's and women's tour. I'm not going to sit here and say I absolutely love to see her on the men's tour, in truth I feel exactly the opposite.

And as far as her bigger crowds, if the extra money that is brought in helps the community that is hosting the event & the charities that the tour supports - is that such a bad thing?

Like I said before level of understanding.

Tee

09-19-2006, 08:01 PM

PA, first you say "Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly, but I would venture a guess that a much larger population of this board has come much closer to being Tiger Woods, then they ever have of being Laffit Pincay Jr...."

That really isn't a true statement either if we are going to bring Tiger Woods or for that matter better amateur golfers into the equation. What percentage of the golfing population has a single digit handicap? The number is probably less than 5%, guess what happens as the level creeps towards Tiger Woods?

Maybe more people on this board play golf than ride horses, maybe it's the other way around. So perhaps some have come closer to being Laffit Pincay Jr. :)

Tee

09-19-2006, 08:10 PM

And you have a knack for being incredibly arrogant and insulting to anyone that posts to the contrary of what you believe.

You're a legend in your own mind.

First of all you are so combative & ready for a argument that you don't take the time to find out what I or others truly believe or know.

Sorry that you take things as arrogant and insulting, but there has been no exaggerating, & certainly I don't intend to try & up my own importance or worthiness. Some people feel this way cuz they can't stand to be in a conversation where certain elements are over there head. Maybe you fall into that category, maybe you don't.

Speak up if you understand, it will make the discussion much better. Speak up if you don't understand, it will to imo lead to a better discussion cuz you will know where I am coming from. If there is a unwillingness to do so on your part than I guess there isn't much more to say.

In closing,

I would love to see someone talk baseball with you that you feel hasn't a clue & see the text of your responses. In fact I think that road has been traveled on this board already.

sq764

09-19-2006, 08:54 PM

A certain level of understanding doesn't not equate to giddiness.
.
There you go again with the pompous statements. You don't know anyone here from Adam. Ther might be 5 people in this thread that could dominate you on any course, but you just assume otherwise.. You could be a horrendous golfer for all we know.

sq764

09-19-2006, 08:55 PM

That really isn't a true statement either if we are going to bring Tiger Woods or for that matter better amateur golfers into the equation. What percentage of the golfing population has a single digit handicap? The number is probably less than 5%, guess what happens as the level creeps towards Tiger Woods?

Maybe more people on this board play golf than ride horses, maybe it's the other way around. So perhaps some have come closer to being Laffit Pincay Jr. :)
PA's statement, not mine. You'll have to ask his explanation of that one..

sq764

09-19-2006, 08:57 PM

I would love to see someone talk baseball with you that you feel hasn't a clue & see the text of your responses. In fact I think that road has been traveled on this board already.
With that being said, is my opinion on baseball better than other's? Do I have more of a right to comment on baseball?

JPinMaryland

09-19-2006, 11:57 PM

That was pretty good research to find out that Amy Alcott story. I dont think she was playing against men pros, but then again I misread the post the first time...

All Im saying is that there seems to be some sort of wisdom that playing against male, touring pros is going to be good for her game but we have no real data pts. that are spot on for this scenario. It seems to be an assumption but I dont think its at all clear.

Also, Im wondering if there will be a downside to what she is doing. SUre she is drawing in more attendance at the gate and presumably more on tv, but its possible that she is also creating a negative effect on millions of others.

Just speculating on that, I dont hate her. But you know as you watch sports you find yourself rooting for or against even in an individual sport like golf..

rastajenk

09-20-2006, 12:51 AM

Could you explain WHY, in some detail, post #34 is foolish and/or ridiculous?
I think it's ridiculous to suggest that one must be intimately involved with the GHIN system, course ratings and slope before one can hold an opinion about Michelle Wie, her game, and the game of golf at large. And I think it's ridiculous to suggest that one who doesn't have that level of involvement is somehow "ignorant."

"All Im saying is that there seems to be some sort of wisdom that playing against male, touring pros is going to be good for her game but we have no real data pts. that are spot on for this scenario. It seems to be an assumption but I dont think its at all clear." - Amen to that. Sports history is full of child prodigies who peak early and have the rest of their sport catch up with them later. I'm not predicting that for Wie, it's just that it's not automatic she will become the best woman golfer ever just because she's the best junior woman golfer ever.

I think we can all agree that this horse has been beat to death, but sure as hell the next time this stunt gets played out, we'll go through it all again. :D

Tee

09-20-2006, 01:39 AM

There you go again with the pompous statements. You don't know anyone here from Adam. Ther might be 5 people in this thread that could dominate you on any course, but you just assume otherwise.. You could be a horrendous golfer for all we know.

Here is a list of people that have posted in this thread.

You
Me
JPinMaryland
Kenwoodallpromos
bigmack
rastajenk
JustRalph
PA
Melman
1st time lasix

I've asked before & I'll ask again anyone involved in this discussion go ahead and post your current handicap.

The one and only person that posted any information about themselves was 1st time lasix & mention of being a 2 handicap. Now a 2 is nothing at all to sneeze at no matter what tees ftl plays from & what the rating and slope might be.

I currently own a 3.7 index measured from the blue tees at a course rated 69.7 with a slope of 114 & my lowest round this year is a 3 under par 69 at said course. Not the best I've ever been, but not so bad considering the amount of time I've spent away from the game the past few years.

To me the silence from the detractors is speaking volumes. It is possible to tell quite a bit about a persons skill level by a simple conversation. It is also very easy to tell by watching them play no matter what the sport, even when he/she is trying to downplay their game in a attempt as hustling.

I think I can with a fair amount of probability assume that there isn't 5 people in this thread who could dominate me straight up from the tips of any golf course & yes that's where I like to play - from the tips.

PaceAdvantage

09-20-2006, 01:49 AM

Seriously, am I that blind? I have little to no interest in golf and never passed judgement on Wie in this thread, nor do I think I am qualified to do so....I'm here as moderator only, in a thread that looks like it may run away out of control (another Golf/Wie thread no less).

All I'm saying is that I did not come away with any impression that Tee was being pompous nor did I assume he was claiming to be the best golfer in this thread. He was just putting out what he claims to be his experience in the game, and I have no reason not to believe him.

For some reason, SQ doesn't believe him, or is intimidated to such a degree that he has resorted to all sorts of name calling in the process. To his credit, Tee continues to respond in a civil and polite manner, given the circumstances.

And rastajenk, I did not come away with the impression that Tee suggested that "one must be intimately involved with the GHIN system, course ratings and slope before one can hold an opinion about Michelle Wie, her game, and the game of golf at large." It would be asinine to suggest such a thing, and I would be the first to agree if I thought Tee was conveying this sort of message.

What am I missing here? Anyone but Tee or Sq764 is free to answer my questions....

PaceAdvantage

09-20-2006, 01:54 AM

No & for the record I don't think she belongs at this level.

Yeah, I thought so....not sure why others seem to think otherwise....

Tee

09-20-2006, 02:00 AM

I think it's ridiculous to suggest that one must be intimately involved with the GHIN system, course ratings and slope before one can hold an opinion about Michelle Wie, her game, and the game of golf at large. And I think it's ridiculous to suggest that one who doesn't have that level of involvement is somehow "ignorant."

Of course one can hold an opinion on this subject w/o intimate knowledge of the GHIN system, course ratings and slope. Having said, my thoughts were that opinion could be softened knowing that the scores Michelle Wie shot at the 84 Lumber Classic were really not all that bad when considering the difficulty of the course which is measured by the course rating and slope. Sure she finished last, but she shot 77 & 81, on a course with a 78.1 rating and a 151 slope. She could have shot 87 & 91 thus furthering credibility to her detractors - even me. One more quick note - there were 4 past major championship winners 2,3,5 & 6 shots better than Wie also packing their bags after missing the cut.

Ignorance while sounding awfully mean simply has the definition of lack of knowledge, education, or awareness. Maybe unaware or uninformed would not quite rustle the feathers so easily? Anway, if indeed those involved in this discussion have that knowledge, education, or awareness speak now or forever hold their peace. :)

Tee

09-20-2006, 03:26 AM

sq764

09-20-2006, 09:29 AM

Yeah, I thought so....not sure why others seem to think otherwise....
Should we leave you two for some alone time? Good god man, over the top..

sq764

09-20-2006, 09:31 AM

Ignorance while sounding awfully mean simply has the definition of lack of knowledge, education, or awareness. Maybe unaware or uninformed would not quite rustle the feathers so easily? Anway, if indeed those involved in this discussion have that knowledge, education, or awareness speak now or forever hold their peace. :)
Ironically, subtle insults while trying to prove one knows something has the definition of blowhard, pomous blowhard, or failed wannabe.

Not sure which applies here. I'll leave that for others to decide..

sq764

09-20-2006, 09:42 AM

How bout one more post for the evening/morning. I hope I did the math correctly, I did in a bit of hurry.

Michelle Wie's tournaments this year against the men.

SK Telecom Open
Couldn't find course rating and slope

U.S. Open Qualifier
Rounds of 68 & 75 - Handicap differentials of -4.3 & 0.0

Sony Open
Rounds of 79 & 68 - Differentials of 4.93 & -4.4

John Deere Classic
Only one round of 77 - Differential 1.6

Omega European Masters
Rounds of 78 & 79 - Differential 4.5 & 5.3

84 Lumber Classic
Rounds of 77 & 81 - Differential -.82 & 2.2

Point of all this? The raw score can be deceptive to how good the round of golf played actually was.
Let's do another summary.. Maybe her scores are looking better from a raw standpoint, but it certainly looks like she is becoming less competitive with the men and she is regressing.

August 2003 – Bay Mills – 9 shots over par, missed cut
Sept 2003 – Boise Open (Nationwide) – missed cut by 12
Jan 2005 – Sony Open – missed cut by 7
July 2005 – John Deere – missed cut by 2
Jan 2006 – Sony Open – missed cut by 4
July 2006 – John Deerer – pulled out of tourney due to tummy ache (near last a the time)
Sept 2006 – European Masters – Dead last missed cut by 15
Sept 2006 – 84 Lumber Classic – Dead last missed cut by 13

OR... Maybe it's just that ALL the other men's players are playing that much better over the past year.. That has to be it.

09-20-2006, 09:51 AM

You could be a horrendous golfer for all we know.

Just FYI, he can play. I flirted with a single digit handicap when I used to play all the time, and I was nowhere near his league.

banacek

09-20-2006, 11:26 AM

For some reason, SQ doesn't believe him, or is intimidated to such a degree that he has resorted to all sorts of name calling in the process. To his credit, Tee continues to respond in a civil and polite manner, given the circumstances.

As one who tries to stay away from commenting too often on off-topic, I'll suspend that for this instance.

Here's what really concerns me. As we are all here to try to be successful at handicapping, I'm not sure how someone can be successful at handicapping, golf, or tiddly winks with that kind of attitude. If we get that upset over Michelle Wie, how mad are we going to get when our jock gives a crappy ride on a 12-1 shot and loses by a nose and we've got $50 on it.

But then again, every response by Tee allows me to take yet another look at his wonderful avatar!:)

sq764

09-20-2006, 12:26 PM

As one who tries to stay away from commenting too often on off-topic, I'll suspend that for this instance.

Here's what really concerns me. As we are all here to try to be successful at handicapping, I'm not sure how someone can be successful at handicapping, golf, or tiddly winks with that kind of attitude. If we get that upset over Michelle Wie, how mad are we going to get when our jock gives a crappy ride on a 12-1 shot and loses by a nose and we've got $50 on it.

But then again, every response by Tee allows me to take yet another look at his wonderful avatar!:)
I don't know why Tee gets so upset when everyone is disagreeing with him on this. Some people just cannot handle it, not sure why.. He goes as far as having to make everyone listen to his content superiority.. Kinda sad.. But oh well.

I think the whole thing is kind of hilarious. I don't relish in someone getting dominated week in and week out, but it's proving a point that a lot of people already know.

bigmack

09-20-2006, 01:01 PM

Just FYI, he can play. I flirted with a single digit handicap when I used to play all the time, and I was nowhere near his league.
The key q is how's your tennis game? Here in SoCal we get a pile of bloaks that scoot in from the east saying they're 4.5 when they're more like 3 or 3.5. What be your rating?

09-20-2006, 03:07 PM

The key q is how's your tennis game? Here in SoCal we get a pile of bloaks that scoot in from the east saying they're 4.5 when they're more like 3 or 3.5. What be your rating?

I have no idea, I'm in Belgium. Is that some USTA rating or something? I'm above average. I'm sure I face better competition here than in the US, the game is a lot bigger in Europe.

bigmack

09-20-2006, 03:24 PM

Is that some USTA rating or something? I'm above average. I'm sure I face better competition here than in the US, the game is a lot bigger in Europe.
Yeah USTA rating.

What surf do you cats play on? I've been playing clay lately and really dig it as it's EZ on the knees

09-20-2006, 03:56 PM

I play clay, hard, and indoor synthetic, depending on weather.

Tee

09-20-2006, 04:45 PM

Let's do another summary.. Maybe her scores are looking better from a raw standpoint, but it certainly looks like she is becoming less competitive with the men and she is regressing.

August 2003 – Bay Mills – 9 shots over par, missed cut
Sept 2003 – Boise Open (Nationwide) – missed cut by 12
Jan 2005 – Sony Open – missed cut by 7
July 2005 – John Deere – missed cut by 2
Jan 2006 – Sony Open – missed cut by 4
July 2006 – John Deerer – pulled out of tourney due to tummy ache (near last a the time)
Sept 2006 – European Masters – Dead last missed cut by 15
Sept 2006 – 84 Lumber Classic – Dead last missed cut by 13

OR... Maybe it's just that ALL the other men's players are playing that much better over the past year.. That has to be it.
Perhaps I'll look up the tournies (maybe all of em) that u posted later. Probably not because it just isn't worth my time. Might be interesting to see how she has progressed or maybe not progressed over the past few years.

Point of the original post was to show you what I kinda thought. Your assumption that she is getting worse by each start by just looking at scores shot is somewhat incorrect when looking at the handicap differential based upon the difficulty of the golf course. BTW the raw score is what she shot sport, the ones you go by to say she is getting worse. :lol: :lol:

This years Women's Open
Rounds of 70-72-71-73

Differentials of -1.13-.6-.26-1.48

She has shot better and worse scores playing on the PGA Tour.

OR... Maybe it's just that ALL the other men's players are playing that much better over the past year.. That has to be it.

Ever since a guy name Tiger came a long, yes the men have been getting better. Also technological advances that allow them to correctly match up their golf clubs to create the perfect launch angle, spin rates, ball speed etc & type of ball to use to get the maximum out of each and every shot. :)

Tee

09-20-2006, 04:50 PM

As one who tries to stay away from commenting too often on off-topic, I'll suspend that for this instance.

Here's what really concerns me. As we are all here to try to be successful at handicapping, I'm not sure how someone can be successful at handicapping, golf, or tiddly winks with that kind of attitude. If we get that upset over Michelle Wie, how mad are we going to get when our jock gives a crappy ride on a 12-1 shot and loses by a nose and we've got $50 on it.

But then again, every response by Tee allows me to take yet another look at his wonderful avatar!:)

Who's upset - maybe Scott is a little? I'm doing just fine & having a bit of fun trying to present the other side of the coin while reaching the same destination.

Erica Blasberg in the avatar - have any other requests? :)

Tee

09-20-2006, 04:57 PM

I don't know why Tee gets so upset when everyone is disagreeing with him on this. Some people just cannot handle it, not sure why.. He goes as far as having to make everyone listen to his content superiority.. Kinda sad.. But oh well.

I think the whole thing is kind of hilarious. I don't relish in someone getting dominated week in and week out, but it's proving a point that a lot of people already know.

One more for banacek to see Erica :D

Hopefully for the last time, we are not in total disagreement!!! I just thought I'd look at the whole issue from a slightly deeper perspective than she finished last again, is playing worse every week & therefore shouldn't be playing with the men.

You know what the difference is btwn shooting 146 & 158 at the 84 Lumber Classic? Not a damn thing because everyone at & in between all missed the cut.

I hate to say it, but I will anyway. Your message I quoted applies more to you than it does to me. Kinda sad.. But oh well.

sq764

09-20-2006, 05:02 PM

The key q is how's your tennis game? Here in SoCal we get a pile of bloaks that scoot in from the east saying they're 4.5 when they're more like 3 or 3.5. What be your rating?
Sorry Mack, once Gabriella Sabatini stopped playing tennis, my interest was over ...

sq764

09-20-2006, 05:04 PM

Ever since a guy name Tiger came a long, yes the men have been getting better. Also technological advances that allow them to correctly match up their golf clubs to create the perfect launch angle, spin rates, ball speed etc & type of ball to use to get the maximum out of each and every shot. :)
Well one MIGHT think that these same technological advances would be available to women as well.. Which, in turn, might keep them in the same upward swing?

Err, are these only available on the men's tour :bang: :bang: :bang:

sq764

09-20-2006, 05:09 PM

One more for banacek to see Erica :D

Hopefully for the last time, we are not in total disagreement!!! I just thought I'd look at the whole issue from a slightly deeper perspective than she finished last again, is playing worse every week & therefore shouldn't be playing with the men.

You know what the difference is btwn shooting 146 & 158 at the 84 Lumber Classic? Not a damn thing because everyone at & in between all missed the cut.

I hate to say it, but I will anyway. Your message I quoted applies more to you than it does to me. Kinda sad.. But oh well.
The difference is that I don't have to continue to try to convince people I am more knowlegable on a subject by continuing to tell them my handicap, or how hard I can throw or how far i can throw or that I can dunk, etc...

I'd be willing to guess that I have played at a higher level in baseball than a good portion of the members on this site. With that being said, I don't think my opinion of the game is superior to everyone that hasn't played at the same level.. And I don't think they are stupid or unintelligent with their comments.

That is the difference between you and I.. Seems subtle, but it's very large.

And I am sure you (or PA) are going to come back with the 'I am not condescending or trying to prove I know more or think other's know less' response.. Don't bother.. It's simply not true.

Thanks

bigmack

09-20-2006, 06:00 PM

Sorry Mack, once Gabriella Sabatini stopped playing tennis, my interest was over ...
Yeah, she jumped ship and is now an apprentice jock for a string of Polo Ponies
(or as Ed Norton would say, "a string of polapanies")

http://www.lifestylemagazin.de/magazin/sport/SPORT/BILDER/sport35.JPG

JPinMaryland

09-20-2006, 06:00 PM

Well one MIGHT think that these same technological advances would be available to women as well.. Which, in turn, might keep them in the same upward swing?

Err, are these only available on the men's tour :bang: :bang: :bang:

The other thing that this raises is that maybe Michelle Wie is simply on the cutting edge of a revolution and she is not a one of a kind or soon to be superstar as has been suggested.

Remember when women's tennis stars started to get younger and younger? We used to think Chris Evert was real young then we got a whole slew of Carling Bassets and Tracey AUstins and then Monica Seles and the Swiss MIss? It seemed the age suddenly dropped younger and younger.

perhas the same thing is happening in womens golf? There seem to be quite a few teenagers out there now, when before there werent any. I wonder if with the new clubs and everything we may see a few more 16 year olds who are tall and athletic able to hit the ball 275 yards??

Tee

09-20-2006, 07:37 PM

The difference is that I don't have to continue to try to convince people I am more knowlegable on a subject by continuing to tell them my handicap, or how hard I can throw or how far i can throw or that I can dunk, etc...

I'd be willing to guess that I have played at a higher level in baseball than a good portion of the members on this site. With that being said, I don't think my opinion of the game is superior to everyone that hasn't played at the same level.. And I don't think they are stupid or unintelligent with their comments.

That is the difference between you and I.. Seems subtle, but it's very large.

And I am sure you (or PA) are going to come back with the 'I am not condescending or trying to prove I know more or think other's know less' response.. Don't bother.. It's simply not true.

Thanks

Peruse this thread http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11327&highlight=baseball

Here's a message from you to chickenhead in a discussion about baseball that proves exactly the opposite of the snow job that your are trying to achieve.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/...62&postcount=12

Ah what the hell, how bout everyone just take a look at the whole thread.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14215&highlight=baseball

I'll find more if you would like, I'm sure there are plenty.

sq764

09-20-2006, 07:45 PM

sq764

09-20-2006, 07:53 PM

One more for banacek to see Erica :D

Hopefully for the last time, we are not in total disagreement!!! I just thought I'd look at the whole issue from a slightly deeper perspective than she finished last again, is playing worse every week & therefore shouldn't be playing with the men.

You know what the difference is btwn shooting 146 & 158 at the 84 Lumber Classic? Not a damn thing because everyone at & in between all missed the cut.

I hate to say it, but I will anyway. Your message I quoted applies more to you than it does to me. Kinda sad.. But oh well.
Why exactly is it so hard for you to accept that no one gives a crap that you say you are good at golf or know about raw scores? Does that bruise your ego? If so, that's simply too bad.

Bottom line is that you can say that she's good and competitive and getting better and this and that, but the reality of it is that each tournament she plays she is just proving over and over she is completely and utterly overmatched and becoming the laughing stock for everyone that knew she'd fail.You can use any rating you would like, and you can be as crafty, insulting and condescending to everyone here like you've been, but unfortunately it doesn't change the fact that the spectacle is over and it's just becoming sad to watch anymore.

Your one weakness is I don't think you like the truth or multiple people making you look bad.. Sorry bub.

Tee

09-20-2006, 07:54 PM

The other thing that this raises is that maybe Michelle Wie is simply on the cutting edge of a revolution and she is not a one of a kind or soon to be superstar as has been suggested.

Remember when women's tennis stars started to get younger and younger? We used to think Chris Evert was real young then we got a whole slew of Carling Bassets and Tracey AUstins and then Monica Seles and the Swiss MIss? It seemed the age suddenly dropped younger and younger.

perhas the same thing is happening in womens golf? There seem to be quite a few teenagers out there now, when before there werent any. I wonder if with the new clubs and everything we may see a few more 16 year olds who are tall and athletic able to hit the ball 275 yards??

JP,

The teenagers have been qualifying to play in the U.S. Women's Open for many years now. I believe Morgan Pressel qualified when she was just shy of even being a teenager - at 12 years of age. This year if memory serves there were more than a dozen, maybe a dozen & a half. Pretty much the same for the past three years. The winner of this years U.S. Women's Amateur Kimberly Kim became the youngest ever to win at 14 years of age.

Equipment, better instruction, practice facilities, access to these facilities, maintenance of golf courses, diet & fitness are all contributing to level of play everywhere. I would think quite a few young men and women are playing the game of golf as well these days while years ago is just wasn't "cool" enough. :)

bigmack

09-20-2006, 08:05 PM

Peruse this thread http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11327&highlight=baseball

Sq - I had no idea you had such disdain of tennis players.

As one, I object.

Baseball players are more fit than 10S?
http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/ad/boo.gif

sq764

09-20-2006, 08:12 PM

Sq - I had no idea you had such disdain of tennis players.

As one, I object.

Baseball players are more fit than 10S?
http://www.freesmileys.org/emo/ad/boo.gif
Just a disdain for Gametheory :-)

He ruined it for every tennis player..

Tee

09-20-2006, 08:17 PM

Peruse this thread http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11327&highlight=baseball

Here's a message from you to chickenhead in a discussion about baseball that proves exactly the opposite of the snow job that your are trying to achieve.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/...62&postcount=12

Ah what the hell, how bout everyone just take a look at the whole thread.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14215&highlight=baseball

I'll find more if you would like, I'm sure there are plenty.

I see the second link didn't work, well here's the content of post #12

"Come on chicken, I have played more baseball games at 30 than you have in 10 lifetimes.. If you haven't played competitive baseball, your opinion on this subject loses a lot of weight.."

Bottom line is you are a hypocritical asshole who doesn't like to look in the mirror. Heaven forbid that you be upstaged one bit by one single person that is more knowledgable on any given subject that you choose to engage.

Deny all you want, but there are plenty of examples all over this message board of you doing the same damn thing that you are accusing me of doing in this thread.

Only difference is I believe it's truly your intent. This whole thing is a gender issue with you, if this was Michael Wie we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Read over this thread, coincidentally again with Chickenhead.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29910&highlight=girlfriend

I think I'd be more concerned over your girlfriend calling you a dumb bastard.

A woman isn't supposed to say this sort of thing to their man are they Scott, just like they're not supposed to play in men's golf events.

sq764

09-20-2006, 08:18 PM

I see the second link didn't work, well here's the content of post #12

Bottom line is you are a hypocritical asshole who doesn't like to look in the mirror. Heaven forbid that you be upstaged one bit by one single person that is more knowledgable on any given subject that you choose to engage.

Deny all you want, but there are plenty of examples all over this message board of you doing the same damn thing that you are accusing me of doing in this thread.

Only difference is I believe it's truly your intent. This whole thing is a gender issue with you, if this was Michael Wie we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Read over this thread, coincidentally again with Chickenhead.
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29910&highlight=girlfriend

A woman isn't supposed to say this sort of thing to their man are they Scott, just like they're not supposed to play in men's golf events.
LOL, only a matter of time before the beaten, battered little man had to resort to insults and cussing.. The framework of the loser.

Thanks for staying consistent :lol: :lol:

sq764

09-20-2006, 08:22 PM

A woman isn't supposed to say this sort of thing to their man are they Scott, just like they're not supposed to play in men's golf events.
And Sparky, a woman or a man shouldn't say this type of thing to their boyfriend, husband, girlfriend or wife ever..

Not sure what your personal ethics are, but mine are to respect your wife/girlfriend and vice/versa.. If you disagree with that, that's your own problem bub..

(If you are trying to insinuate I am a sexist, especially based on the above reference, you are bordering on pathetic..)

Tee

09-20-2006, 08:46 PM

LOL, only a matter of time before the beaten, battered little man had to resort to insults and cussing.. The framework of the loser.

Thanks for staying consistent :lol: :lol:

Man u truly r good, biggest thing is that I know that it's actually the other way around. Perhaps in time you will come to the same realization.

sq764

09-20-2006, 08:50 PM

Man u truly r good, biggest thing is that I know that it's actually the other way around. Perhaps in time you will come to the same realization.
Wow, is the "I'm rubber you're glue" coming next or is it the "You're it" defense?

Just keep cursing me, it's kinda fun to listen to..

Tee

09-20-2006, 08:53 PM

And Sparky, a woman or a man shouldn't say this type of thing to their boyfriend, husband, girlfriend or wife ever..

Not sure what your personal ethics are, but mine are to respect your wife/girlfriend and vice/versa.. If you disagree with that, that's your own problem bub..

(If you are trying to insinuate I am a sexist, especially based on the above reference, you are bordering on pathetic..)

Spin the music and dance to it any which way you like. I really don't think you want to compare ethics & morals with me either.

Shouldn't say that type of thing ever, well yes in a perfect world maybe. Guess what, from time to time in the heat of the moment it's gonna happen.

I suppose you should have explained your "moral fiber" in that thread so that such a misunderstanding would not take place - my bad.

sq764

09-20-2006, 08:59 PM

Shouldn't say that type of thing ever, well yes in a perfect world maybe. Guess what, from time to time in the heat of the moment it's gonna happen.

I suppose you should have explained your "moral fiber" in that thread so that such a misunderstanding would not take place - my bad.
Hey, what happens in your house and in your relationship is not my business or my place to judge.

Frankly i am a little miffed at how you interpreted that comment to Chickenhead as anything remotely related to a sexist remark or that I have it against women..

Tee

09-20-2006, 09:07 PM

Hey, what happens in your house and in your relationship is not my business or my place to judge.

Frankly i am a little miffed at how you interpreted that comment to Chickenhead as anything remotely related to a sexist remark or that I have it against women..

Well welcome to the club Mr. Miffed. Nothing u have interpreted both in the past or present on this board has ever had the same effect on anyone else eh?

I have one question to ask - are you self educated? I mean from pre-school to elementary school, middle school, high school & college?

Were those so called teachers, instructors & professors wrong when they presented facts that backed up their opinion that differed from yours?

sq764

09-20-2006, 09:13 PM

Well welcome to the club Mr. Miffed. Nothing u have interpreted both in the past or present on this board has ever had the same effect on anyone else eh?

I have one question to ask - are you self educated? I mean from pre-school to elementary school, middle school, high school & college?

Were those so called teachers, instructors & professors wrong when they presented facts that backed up their opinion that differed from yours?
Back to insulting me again.. Pretty sad.

Tee

09-20-2006, 09:28 PM

Back to insulting me again.. Pretty sad.

A find it extremely hiliarious, maybe perplexed would be the better word that you are just fine with,

Originally Posted by sq764
"Come on chicken, I have played more baseball games at 30 than you have in 10 lifetimes.. If you haven't played competitive baseball, your opinion on this subject loses a lot of weight.."

If you haven't played competitive baseball, your opinion on this subject loses alot of wieght. Hmmm very interesting comment, but yet when I type in what amounts to the exact same thing it's arrogant, pompous & condescending.

I have an idea for you on a signature line. You might have to change the wording up a bit to make it just right.

Have your cake & eat it to, works wonders for me!!!

You sir seem to insist on having it both ways.

EOD

sq764

09-20-2006, 09:33 PM

A find it extremely hiliarious, maybe perplexed would be the better word that you are just fine with,

Originally Posted by sq764
"Come on chicken, I have played more baseball games at 30 than you have in 10 lifetimes.. If you haven't played competitive baseball, your opinion on this subject loses a lot of weight.."

If you haven't played competitive baseball, your opinion on this subject loses alot of wieght. Hmmm very interesting comment, but yet when I type in what amounts to the exact same thing it's arrogant, pompous & condescending.

I have an idea for you on a signature line. You might have to change the wording up a bit to make it just right.

Have your cake & eat it to, works wonders for me!!!

You sir seem to insist on having it both ways.

EOD
You're boring me with the insults and the babbling.. If that's all you're going to do, we're done.. Take care.