Ford Dumps 80,000.....

[Stevie Belmont]

workers. They have to do it to make it. What a country.

[PlanB]

so true Stevie.

[Secretariat]

Hope they dumped a few car designers and managers in the process.

[Tom]

More cost effective to get rid of union slakards, Sec.
Designers and managers have something UAW workers do not.....accountabliltiy.:D

[Lefty]

What the hell does the link have to do with this story?

[Secretariat]

More cost effective to get rid of union slakards, Sec.
Designers and managers have something UAW workers do not.....accountabliltiy.:D

Dumping workers may save money in the short run, but if they don't find a way to make better cars that people buy, they'll always be a second rate company. Making better cars means better designs that people will buy. That goes to management decisions, not worker decisions.

[sq764]

workers. They have to do it to make it. What a country.
What do you mean what a country?

Poorly run businesses fail in every single country.. Or is it just here? I forget..

[Lefty]

Maybe Stevie would like it better in a socialist country where the jobs are guaranteed. France maybe.

[sq764]

Maybe Stevie would like it better in a socialist country where the jobs are guaranteed. France maybe.
AND bathing is optional.. two birds with one stone

[Lefty]

Have heard that those being let go have been offered buyouts from $35,000 to $100,000 depending on length of service.

[ljb]

More cost effective to get rid of union slakards, Sec.
Designers and managers have something UAW workers do not.....accountabliltiy.:D
Just curious here Tom,
If the Designers and managers are accountable why are they not being dumped ? Delphi has given their "accountable" managers bonuses. This after managing the company into bankruptcy.
Splain that to me, can you ?

[JustRalph]

Cleveland, the poorest city in America.........now they are going to lose a
Ford Plant..........it just keeps getting better and better.............and these Cleveland idiots just keep electing the same old shit.........councilmen and such.

[Wiley]

Just curious here Tom,
If the Designers and managers are accountable why are they not being dumped ? Delphi has given their "accountable" managers bonuses. This after managing the company into bankruptcy.
Splain that to me, can you ?
1 in 3 white collar workers, will be given a buyout option, some voluntary now, involuntary later, so 14,000 white collar empolyees will be eliminated by the first three months of 2007. Mullay is just accelerating the 'Way Forward Plan'. Bill Ford unfortunately has been a bystander CEO and was forced into the position after the Nasar debauchal. Don't think he ever really wanted the job and was happy to relinquish it. Only 7-8 years ago Ford had almost 30 billion in cash reserves. Not pretty for communities in the Detroit area. Mullay got in the neighborhood of $25 million compensation to join Ford. I wonder how many jobs were eliminated to make up this amount?

[Stevie Belmont]

The what a country comment was made on whim. Corporate America sucks though. Been there, done that.

[Lefty]

The what a country comment was made on whim. Corporate America sucks though. Been there, done that.
But what would we do without it? Work for the State?

[46zilzal]

But what would we do without it? Work for the State?
no just not let them be so immune to responsibility

[Lefty]

Their responsibility is to their investors. Their responsibility is to make profits. The govt has more than enough restrictions on all business.

[boxcar]

The what a country comment was made on whim. Corporate America sucks though. Been there, done that.

Well, then, pray tell, please: What "Corporate" country or countries do you like better and why?

Boxcar

[Stevie Belmont]

Dudes sound brainwashed.

[boxcar]

Dudes sound brainwashed.

"Dudes sound brainwashed" is a name of a country? :bang: :bang:

Boxcar

[Stevie Belmont]

Well, then, pray tell, please: What "Corporate" country or countries do you like better and why?

Boxcar


I don't like any other country more then the one I live in.

[boxcar]

I don't like any other country more then the one I live in.

And which one may that be? Or are you too ashamed to spell it out?

Boxcar

[46zilzal]

And which one may that be? Or are you too ashamed to spell it out?


Estonia of course.

[Stevie Belmont]

And which one may that be? Or are you too ashamed to spell it out?

Boxcar

Your the kind of person I would like to meet in the street. USA Scumbag....

[sq764]

Your the kind of person I would like to meet in the street. USA Scumbag....
Nothin for nothin - why is he a scumbag? Because he appreciates what we have in America?

Then chalk me up for a scumbag too

[46zilzal]

Then chalk me up for a scumbag too
no argument there

[Stevie Belmont]

I said I dont like corporate America. I've worked for many corporations. They all lie through thier teeth, the ones i've been associated with anyway. I've seen many famlies and friends of mine have the rug pulled out form under them. Thinking they were in good hands, by people lying to their face day in and day out. I don't care for the way certain things are done in the name of some CEO who views all his employees as numbers, thats it.

The only person who goes to bed at night worrying about ones family or problem, is you yourself.

Having my patriotism questioned makes me sick. I know people who died in those buildings. So I could care less what that one thinks. My father, and grandfathers fought in WWII and WWI....so I could care less. I make a post in here once in a blue moon, and get attacked? Thats bullshit. I'll stick to what I really care about...Horseracing. Last post on this. I could care less what anyone says. People who know me best, know what kind of guy I am. And more importantly I know who I am. And I love this country for better or worse.

[Stevie Belmont]

I have taken back the scumbag comment. No need for name calling.

[Secretariat]

I said I dont like corporate America. I've worked for many corporations. They all lie through thier teeth, the ones i've been associated with anyway. I've seen many famlies and friends of mine have the rug pulled out form under them. Thinking they were in good hands, by people lying to their face day in and day out. I don't care for the way certain things are done in the name of some CEO who views all his employees as numbers, thats it.

The only person who goes to bed at night worrying about ones family or problem, is you yourself.

Having my patriotism questioned makes me sick. I know people who died in those buildings. So I could care less what that one thinks. My father, and grandfathers fought in WWII and WWI....so I could care less. I make a post in here once in a blue moon, and get attacked? Thats bullshit. I'll stick to what I really care about...Horseracing. Last post on this. I could care less what anyone says. People who know me best, know what kind of guy I am. And more importantly I know who I am. And I love this country for better or worse.

Steve,

Great post. Don't let the far right extremists on the board drive you away. You've made some great points. Some Repubs beleive that we live in a corporacy and CEO's can do not wrong. They believe they are beholden only to their shareholder, and have no reponsibility to their workers.

The gap between CEO pay and Joe Worker pay has become wider and wider to the point of today's current day obscenity. This at the saem time pension programs go under, and health care packages have become a joke compared to what they used to be. Wages have barely kept up with inflation.

I understand the frustration when a company makes a pact with a worker, makes promises to his "team", and then cuts benefits, workers, and pays increaes to upper manangement and himself.

[Tom]

Just curious here Tom,
If the Designers and managers are accountable why are they not being dumped ? Delphi has given their "accountable" managers bonuses. This after managing the company into bankruptcy.
Splain that to me, can you ?

OK, read this s-l-o-w-l-y.

1. They ARE laying off 30% of their white collar work force.
2. Delphi is not part of Ford, so what they do has nothing to to do with this.
3. Added bonus - bankruptcy is not a bad thing - look at all the pension plans being dumped by bankruptcy courts. Do the math.

[Tom]

For the recodr, I agree that bascially corparate America is the scumbagd. THEY are the one sending our jobs to other countries and screwing the middle class to death. Just because it is the best system in the world doesn't mean it is worth a crap.

[Lefty]

Steve,

Great post. Don't let the far right extremists on the board drive you away. You've made some great points. Some Repubs beleive that we live in a corporacy and CEO's can do not wrong. They believe they are beholden only to their shareholder, and have no reponsibility to their workers.

The gap between CEO pay and Joe Worker pay has become wider and wider to the point of today's current day obscenity. This at the saem time pension programs go under, and health care packages have become a joke compared to what they used to be. Wages have barely kept up with inflation.

I understand the frustration when a company makes a pact with a worker, makes promises to his "team", and then cuts benefits, workers, and pays increaes to upper manangement and himself.
sec, prob with you is you don't blve in capitalism. And if your pist was true the Repub justice dept wouldn't have put Enron execs and otherrs in jail.
We just don't blve in socialism, i.e. guaranteed jobs and incoms redistribution.
Their primary responsibity IS to their investors; that's the essence of capitalism. The other part is we are free to get the best education we can and seek the best jobs we can. If that wasn't true, EVERY job would be min. wage.

[Secretariat]

sec, prob with you is you don't blve in capitalism. And if your pist was true the Repub justice dept wouldn't have put Enron execs and otherrs in jail.
We just don't blve in socialism, i.e. guaranteed jobs and incoms redistribution.
Their primary responsibity IS to their investors; that's the essence of capitalism. The other part is we are free to get the best education we can and seek the best jobs we can. If that wasn't true, EVERY job would be min. wage.

I beleive in captialism. I just don't believe in unchecked greed. Capitalism existed 40-50 years ago in this country in case you forgot. And during that period of capitalism in this country - pensions were a promise then, worker -CEO wage gaps were much narrower, benefits were a promise to workers, and companies cared about their employees, and there was pride in the slogan Made in America.

Your continual excuse of "That's capitalism" and "Anything goes for short term investor profits" doesn't cut it Lefty. We've had capitalism for a LONG TIME in this country, it's just changing in a direction that emphasizes outsourcing, bigger paychecks for CEO's, lower worker wages, reductions in benefits and pensions, and overall more fear in the workplace.

We've moved from a company as team working to build a Made in America product, to just be glad you've got a job because you could be gone tomorrow.

Dont' give me "that's capitalism." 40-50 years ago it was capitalism as well.

[sq764]

Steve,

Great post. Don't let the far right extremists on the board drive you away. You've made some great points. Some Repubs beleive that we live in a corporacy and CEO's can do not wrong. .
Wow, it's simply amazing how you know what everyone thinks..

AND that you know Dems don't feel this way either. You are wise beyond your years.

[sq764]

no argument there
You made a good move to Canada. Stay there, we don't want you back

[sq764]

I beleive in captialism. I just don't believe in unchecked greed. Capitalism existed 40-50 years ago in this country in case you forgot. And during that period of capitalism in this country - pensions were a promise then, worker -CEO wage gaps were much narrower, benefits were a promise to workers, and companies cared about their employees, and there was pride in the slogan Made in America.

Your continual excuse of "That's capitalism" and "Anything goes for short term investor profits" doesn't cut it Lefty. We've had capitalism for a LONG TIME in this country, it's just changing in a direction that emphasizes outsourcing, bigger paychecks for CEO's, lower worker wages, reductions in benefits and pensions, and overall more fear in the workplace.

We've moved from a company as team working to build a Made in America product, to just be glad you've got a job because you could be gone tomorrow.

Dont' give me "that's capitalism." 40-50 years ago it was capitalism as well.
You seem like you are one jaded fellow. I guess it all depends on where you have worked in your life. Believe it or not a LOT of Americans love their jobs and love their company.

[Lefty]

sec, 40-50 yrs ago we weren't in a global economy. American Workerrs don't seem to have the pride they once had. The company must survive or nobody has a job. A company has it's first duty to its investors and not the workers. Sorry yuh don't like it, but that's the way it is. And talk about greed--workers want $20 bucks or more an hr for jobs a trained chimp could do. The unions have, in a lot of instances, priced the american worker out of his job.

[Secretariat]

You seem like you are one jaded fellow. I guess it all depends on where you have worked in your life. Believe it or not a LOT of Americans love their jobs and love their company.

lol...nothing like dealing with my post.

[Secretariat]

sec, 40-50 yrs ago we weren't in a global economy. American Workerrs don't seem to have the pride they once had. The company must survive or nobody has a job. A company has it's first duty to its investors and not the workers. Sorry yuh don't like it, but that's the way it is. And talk about greed--workers want $20 bucks or more an hr for jobs a trained chimp could do. The unions have, in a lot of instances, priced the american worker out of his job.

Lefty,

Can you explain the unbeleivable wage gap between CEO's and Joe Workers from 40 years ago to today?

[Lefty]

Why do I have to? The CEO's ultimately responsible for making a company profitable. If they can't, then the company has to explain it to the investors.
Any job I ever had(I had a bunch, never a CEO though; always a worker or in lower mgt)and i became unhappy, i'd either quit or say something or did something that got me fired, i'd get another job or make my own. I never got rich, but i've always been a happy person. There ya go...

[Tom]

And what does being in a global economy do to strengthen our country or help our people?
NOTHING.

[Lefty]

And what does being in a global economy do to strengthen our country or help our people?
NOTHING.
Tom, like it or not WE IS in one. That's the facts. Cheap products from other countries do help us as consumers, and our companies and workers must learn to compete. It's just one of those facts of life.

[ljb]

Tom, like it or not WE IS in one. That's the facts. Cheap products from other countries do help us as consumers, and our companies and workers must learn to compete. It's just one of those facts of life.
Lefty,
American workers can compete with any workers in the world. However it would be better if the playing field was level. Just today there is a news story about the g7 complaining about China's monetary policy. And there are continuing stories of China stealing patents. Japanese auto workers are unionized and actually make comparable wages to American workers. One exception i found is Japan has nationalized health care. The part of the picture you are missing is the part where corporate giants exploit the workers and the small stockholders for their excutive bonuses. One more difference in Japan just came to mind, there ceos make about 4-9 times the average workers pay. Compared to 300-400 times for American ceos.
I've got more but, duty calls.

[sq764]

lol...nothing like dealing with my post.
Just wondering what happened to you in your life to make you so jaded.

[tonto1944]

Ford is having a hard time because they make a terrible product,along with Chrysler. I have owned Chryslers all my adult life ,and the last 2 I bought were terrible. A Plymouth Voyager. 100,000 miles the engin died. I took good care of it. Changed the oil every 4,000 miles. At 70,000 the trans started leaking. At 76,000 the AC went . And this was all in 4 yrs. I travel a lot and put a lot of mileage on my cars. So instead of junking it and buying a new car for 20,000 I invested 4,000 in a brand new engine from Chrysler.
My wifes 2003 Intrepid at 20,000 the calipers and rotars went at 30,000 the Gear shifter cable went. Luckily I took extended Warrenty.
At 40,00 the thuing that controls the computer went.

My next car will be a Camaray. My daughter has a carolla and has 80,000 miles and still has all the same parts. Changes oil every 4,000 miles and it runs great.

My Aunt and Yncle have a Avalon 145,000 miles and all they have ever done is get new brakes and usual tune-up and ouil and trans oil change.

The Chrysler dealer by me has a Mech garage with 10 bays and 12 Mechanics. While the Toyota dealer has 5 Bays and 5 mechanics. At chrysler you have to wait 5-7 days after you call to get work done ,where as my daughter xcalls and goes in next day for tune up or oil chge.

Now you tell me who makes the better car.

[Lefty]

lbj, if we're paying ceo's too much and that's the problem, then companies will correct that or go broke. But I think they're making inferior products. I bght an American made fan a few yrs ago, pd 3 times the price as a foreign made one and it didn't last the season. The foreign made ones usually last 3 seasons.
I bght thewife 91 Honda in 91 brand new. She's still driving it, there's been little maintenance. Never had that kind of service from an American car.
So the American companies must find a way to compete or lose buyers and investors.
Don't see how healthcare enters into it. Are you telling me the Japanese have national health care and still take home an equal take home pay to americans and have the same or better lifestyle? I doubt it.
Lbj, what's your solution? More govt?

[Tom]

MY solution is for bush to get off his damn butt and make trade with China both fari and legal - which right now, it is not. If he would spend hafl the time worrying about Ameican workers as he does on that braindead moronic guest worker progrma, we would all be better off.
The guy is killing our middle class with his brain farts.

[chickenhead]

I really would like to work at a company like Ford for a little while, just to understand why they are so disfuntional. To understand why anything outside of their F Series trucks are so POS. To understand why they can't build a 4 cylinder to save their lives. I mean really, what's going on?

We just retired my girlfriends Honda Accord at 250K miles, bought her a Toyota Matrix. I drive a Toyota Tacoma. I would LOVE to buy American, I really try to...but I just can't see throwing my money away on an inferior product.

My dad tried to trade in a Mustang with like 40K miles on it, they offered him 5K. My Tacoma with 80K miles on it would sell for 10K easy, more like 12K, and I think we both paid about the same.

Why is is so hard Detroit? What is the dealio?

[chickenhead]

Also, the Prius, drove one of those the other day. Probably the coolest car on the road...the coolest passenger car at least. The technology and complexity is frankly astounding given the reliability. It is so far ahead of anything the domestics could put out it's not even funny.

If Ford built the Prius it would be a death trap, there would be batteries exploding right and left.

[GameTheory]

The Ford Escape is a hybrid -- anyone driven that? I was looking to get a smallish SUV last year and looked at it briefly, but it didn't seem ready for prime-time. And like everyone else, I'm VERY skeptical of any American car, and have always hated Fords in particular. Ended up with a Hyundai Tucson...

[chickenhead]

Don't know anything about the Escape...do they have a special Escape hatch to use when the batteries explode?

The neatest thing about the Prius is little screen that shows the direction of energy flow in real time...whether the energy is coming from the batteries, whether the engine is sourcing to the drivetrain, etc etc.

I have a suspicion the Prius doesn't really have any batteries at all, it's just a standard car. But everyone who has one gets so caught up in watching the video game on the screen, and trying to get the best gas milage -- that that is what actually gives it such good gas mileage, by modifying peoples driving habits. I almost got in an accident trying to get "high score". ;)

[JustRalph]

Looks like the Ford plant in Cleveland is going to stay open until 2008

[Secretariat]

Just wondering what happened to you in your life to make you so jaded.

The election of GW.

No, seriously, I don't think of myself as jaded. I just demand a lot out of government, beleive in accountability, personal rights, am appalled at corruption and greed, and don't beleive in huge deficits or unnecessary wars. I would think most feel the same about those things. The problem comes when "party" enters into it.

Lefty, there were CEO's 50-60 years ago too. The wage gap was smaller. Products made in America were respected and pirchased worldwide. there wre unions back then, and only one person really had to work in a household compared to today. Now SW might call that jaded. I call it history. Today, the gap is widening between rich and poor, poverty is at an all time high, bankrupticies are climbing again, and our trade deficit keeps climbing. NAFTA and CAFTA are a joke. Yuo want to make the issue about capitalism. It isn't. Capitalism existed 50 years ago. As much as it pains me, Tom, actually hits the nail on the head on this one.

There is no such thing as "free trade" if there isn't "fair trade". Additionally, the American Worker doesn't want his lifestyle down in by third world level working conditions and wages to balance out corporate ledger sheets for CEO raises. Yoiu may call it competitiveness. I call it exploitation.

[Tom]

So you want governemtn to regulate CEO slaaries?
If them, then why not everyone's salary. Fair's fair.
Who better than the government to decide what your jobis worth?
What's YOUR solution, Sec?

[Secretariat]

So you want governemtn to regulate CEO slaaries?
If them, then why not everyone's salary. Fair's fair.
Who better than the government to decide what your jobis worth?
What's YOUR solution, Sec?

Where so I say I want the govt. to regulate CEO salaries - although not a bad idea - I add to below.

My solution is to do the following:

a) Trash NAFTA and CAFTA immediately.
b) Tariff the hell out of countries that exploit workers, and are below a minimal percentage of our minimum wage workers. THis MUST be done to get at free and FAIR trade.
c) Pass legislation that sets a maximum gap between CEO pay and median worker pay.
d) Balance the budget and elimiante deficits (especially to commie countries like China)
e) Pass National Health Care -get businesses out of the health care industry. They complain about it -so let's help companies not have to deal with it.

[Tom]

Sec,
By what right does the fed have to set salary gaps?
All in all, very general, non-specific pie in the sky ideas.
Suprised you didn't thorw in some alchemy stuff to balance the budget.

[ljb]

lbj, if we're paying ceo's too much and that's the problem, then companies will correct that or go broke. But I think they're making inferior products. I bght an American made fan a few yrs ago, pd 3 times the price as a foreign made one and it didn't last the season. The foreign made ones usually last 3 seasons.
I bght thewife 91 Honda in 91 brand new. She's still driving it, there's been little maintenance. Never had that kind of service from an American car.
So the American companies must find a way to compete or lose buyers and investors.
Don't see how healthcare enters into it. Are you telling me the Japanese have national health care and still take home an equal take home pay to americans and have the same or better lifestyle? I doubt it.
Lbj, what's your solution? More govt?

Lefty,
Did I mention Delphi's bankruptcy and the $60 million bonus being given to the top executives. If you do a search you will find many American companies that have gone belly up recently with their executives leaving with a golden parachute.
As far as ceo pay, the only control I know of would be the stockholders, and many companies are controlled by a group including the board of directors that benefit from giving each other bonuses.
I am not going to get into a debate regarding the quality of American products vs. foreign made. Interesting that you haven't tried an American car in 15 years.
As for the health care issue, it is just another reason japanese companies can be more competitive. Japanese auto-workers make comparable wages to American auto-workers as for their lifestyle I don't have any idea.
ps. I am sitting here with my wife, brother-in-law and his wife. She (sister-in-law) just asked me to tell you to put a quarter in a slot for her.

[Lefty]

Lefty,
Did I mention Delphi's bankruptcy and the $60 million bonus being given to the top executives. If you do a search you will find many American companies that have gone belly up recently with their executives leaving with a golden parachute.
As far as ceo pay, the only control I know of would be the stockholders, and many companies are controlled by a group including the board of directors that benefit from giving each other bonuses.
I am not going to get into a debate regarding the quality of American products vs. foreign made. Interesting that you haven't tried an American car in 15 years.
As for the health care issue, it is just another reason japanese companies can be more competitive. Japanese auto-workers make comparable wages to American auto-workers as for their lifestyle I don't have any idea.
ps. I am sitting here with my wife, brother-in-law and his wife. She (sister-in-law) just asked me to tell you to put a quarter in a slot for her.
Under our system the mktplace decides. I haven't had to try an american car in 15 yrs cause the Honda still going strong
And if you don't know about the Japanese lifestyle how can you possibly say the Japanese worker doing better'n ours? That Nationalized healthcare got to be a killer. I'd just bet americans have a lot better lifestyle. Even our so called povert stricken have color tv's, cars and computers.
Sorry, but I don't play slots but the wifey does, so she'll handle it.
No good, your sisterinlaw owes the wife a quarter. lol.

[Lefty]

Where so I say I want the govt. to regulate CEO salaries - although not a bad idea - I add to below.

My solution is to do the following:

a) Trash NAFTA and CAFTA immediately.
b) Tariff the hell out of countries that exploit workers, and are below a minimal percentage of our minimum wage workers. THis MUST be done to get at free and FAIR trade.
c) Pass legislation that sets a maximum gap between CEO pay and median worker pay.
d) Balance the budget and elimiante deficits (especially to commie countries like China)
e) Pass National Health Care -get businesses out of the health care industry. They complain about it -so let's help companies not have to deal with it.
A,B will do nothing but raise prices on the american consumer. Our money will lose buying power. That's a solution?
C. is socialism, we do not limit the american dream.
D. a good idea, but hard to implement; too many do not want to give up their pork and we are in a war.
E. Another bad idea, will cost more than we're paying now. Time to start health savings acctts. At least the young can benefit.

[Secretariat]

A,B will do nothing but raise prices on the american consumer. Our money will lose buying power. That's a solution?
C. is socialism, we do not limit the american dream.
D. a good idea, but hard to implement; too many do not want to give up their pork and we are in a war.
E. Another bad idea, will cost more than we're paying now. Time to start health savings acctts. At least the young can benefit.

Lefty, NAFTA and CAFTA are disasters, and GW promises free trade, but he forgets the fair part. I take pride in buying American when the quality is equal. But there's not a lot of options - Tariffs were common when the founding fathers were in power. Jefferson had no problems with tariffs. Why do you?

Please explain to me how C is socialism.

Balancing the Budget - What has happened to the GOP? They used to push for a Constitutional amendment for a balanced budget under Newt's world? Even Clinton was able to balance the budget a few years. it's not hard - requires - paying as you go...not free tax breaks for gas companies.

You've got almsot 44 million peopel UNISURED Lefty, and those who are insured are generally under Underinsured. Employers complain about the costs of insurance programs. Doctors complain about the multiplicity of forms for each of the companies. Frankly, it would cost less - less admisntrative work for doctors, employers, and more preventive care. Plus there's nothing preventing people from buying their own supplemental, much like medicare. I have not seen any national initiatives in Canada or Britain to ask the governments to get rid of their National Health Care.

At some point it has to happen becasue the free market is out of control on a life/death issue for some.

But Lefty, I understand you're for the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Your beleive is those who are wealthy deserve it all (as the late anne richards said - those born with a silver foot in their mouth), and earned it all, and those who are poor deserved it (especially those women living under the poverty level and working two minimum wage jobs to afford an apartment). We will never agree.

[Secretariat]

btw.. Lefty....the new CEO for Ford was hried for a raise over the current CEO for 30 million a year. A bit over the 80,000 workers asked to walk.

[Tom]

80,000 workers that are not needed for a smaller Ford, which is the goal.
How would diving up that 30 million amoung the workers help the company?
They need to hire someone who has the skills to run the company and turn it around. Not one of the 80,000 could ever do that.
And Delphi - wage package around $67 and hour! WOW! talk about overpaid.


The big reason foreign comapanies do so well is they are not anchored down by unions. Bottom line. Same worker pool in America - live next door to unioin boys, yet do far better work, more of it, and put out a better product.
Unioin contracts mean failure.

[Lefty]

Lefty, NAFTA and CAFTA are disasters, and GW promises free trade, but he forgets the fair part. I take pride in buying American when the quality is equal. But there's not a lot of options - Tariffs were common when the founding fathers were in power. Jefferson had no problems with tariffs. Why do you?

Please explain to me how C is socialism.

Balancing the Budget - What has happened to the GOP? They used to push for a Constitutional amendment for a balanced budget under Newt's world? Even Clinton was able to balance the budget a few years. it's not hard - requires - paying as you go...not free tax breaks for gas companies.

You've got almsot 44 million peopel UNISURED Lefty, and those who are insured are generally under Underinsured. Employers complain about the costs of insurance programs. Doctors complain about the multiplicity of forms for each of the companies. Frankly, it would cost less - less admisntrative work for doctors, employers, and more preventive care. Plus there's nothing preventing people from buying their own supplemental, much like medicare. I have not seen any national initiatives in Canada or Britain to ask the governments to get rid of their National Health Care.

At some point it has to happen becasue the free market is out of control on a life/death issue for some.

But Lefty, I understand you're for the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer. Your beleive is those who are wealthy deserve it all (as the late anne richards said - those born with a silver foot in their mouth), and earned it all, and those who are poor deserved it (especially those women living under the poverty level and working two minimum wage jobs to afford an apartment). We will never agree.
Sez, you sec, sez you. Got any figures to prove it. I don't either but i've heard nafta anyway brght us a lot of trade cause we exported as much or more than w imported. I don't know, but i doubt they are disasters. The economy is great, stockmkt is poised to go to alltime high, so don't blame the Ford disaster on Nafta and Cafta.
44 people uninsured but no one in this country is denied healthcare. Canada and place with Nat'l health insurance are paying exorbitant taxes and i understand in Canada,it takes a long time to get a simple test like a Catscan. The ones that can afford it come here. National health ins is for socialists sec.
I have worked 2 min wage jobs myself in my life, so what? I'm not rich either, it's my fault not the govts. A lot of wealthy people do deserve it. They were working long hrs while i and others partied it up. This country gives equal opportunity, it's up to us to make the most of it. But i've been over this before in other threads. So guess we'll never agree. I blve in the power of the individual and you blve in govt from cradle to grave. That's socialism. As bad as capitalism is, it's the best thing in the world.

[Lefty]

btw.. Lefty....the new CEO for Ford was hried for a raise over the current CEO for 30 million a year. A bit over the 80,000 workers asked to walk.
Well, sec, they are free to do what the hell they want aren't they? The company will ultimately have to anser to its stockholders. I have been hired fired and layed off many times in my life. Solution: Find another job or make your own. I've done it many many many times in my life.

[sq764]

btw.. Lefty....the new CEO for Ford was hried for a raise over the current CEO for 30 million a year. A bit over the 80,000 workers asked to walk.
You don't seem to understand the cost of doing business. You need to do a little research so you can make some sensible comments on the subject

[ljb]

80,000 workers that are not needed for a smaller Ford, which is the goal.
How would diving up that 30 million amoung the workers help the company?
They need to hire someone who has the skills to run the company and turn it around. Not one of the 80,000 could ever do that.
And Delphi - wage package around $67 and hour! WOW! talk about overpaid.


The big reason foreign comapanies do so well is they are not anchored down by unions. Bottom line. Same worker pool in America - live next door to unioin boys, yet do far better work, more of it, and put out a better product.
Unioin contracts mean failure.

Tom,
Japanese auto-workers are union members. The $67 and hour includes health care which is provided by the government in Japan.
CEO pay figures to about $5682.00 per hour and this does not include fringes. WOW talk about overpaid!
Not sure about the conditions of the slave labor in China.

[Lefty]

lbj, i'll bet our economy is a lot stronger than japan. I'll bet more individuals own autos than in Japan. Nat'l health insurance, givt pays. Well, the govt is the PEOPLE so taxes must be raised. I want to keep the govt out of my healthcare, they're too involved already and that'a why it's so high.

[GameTheory]

People seem to think that most wealthy people were born wealthy. Of course some were, but research shows that the VAST MAJORITY of wealthy people in America came from low to middle-class backgrounds, and worked their way up -- they were not born with it, they did not inherit it, and they did not marry into it -- they worked for it. I mean look at that idiot Bill Gates -- nothing special about him and not born rich, and now he's the richest guy there is.

I believe any able-bodied person with average intelligence can get rich if he wants to in this country. There is no shortage of opportunity because even with all the f'd up obstacles from government and elsewhere it still comes down to making your own opportunity. Most people are not trying to get rich, of course, because they believe they could never be rich. They also believe that rich people are all greedy bastards, etc, which sets-up another psychological block to them getting ahead. (If you believe that people with money are bad; you can be sure you are never going to have any -- your brain is going to be sure of that in order to keep your self-image of being "good" alive.) But it is those beliefs that are holding them back, nothing more. (This is the reason that most people who win the lottery soon end up with exact same amount of money they started with.) The external obstacles of society are NEGLIGIBLE compared to the internal ones people set-up for themselves. Get rid of those internal blocks, and you'll become a magnet for money. The ONLY THING required to get rich in America is the TRUE desire to do so.

This principle is true of most any endeavor -- the external conditions one finds oneself in generally are not very important to your success or failure; but people love to be victims so all they talk about are how they got screwed by the system, by government, by Ford, or whoever. But your life is what you make of it, period. If you don't like where you are at, then you've got to look no farther than to yourself to make a change. I find this thought comforting, but most seem to find it disturbing and for some reason would rather think that it is really external forces controlling their lives.

I've probably drifted off-topic again...

[Lefty]

GT, nice post. You couldn't be more ON TOPIC.

[ljb]

gt,
Nice pep talk. Does it have anything to do with the current debate ?

[Secretariat]

So guess we'll never agree. I blve in the power of the individual and you blve in govt from cradle to grave.

Well, we do agree that we'll never agree. As to beleiving in the power of the individual? I beleive in that. Doesn't mean one can not beleive in the contribution of a government to keep the playing field level. See, Lefty you beleive one is exclusive of the other. i simply don't think it is an either/or. Otherwise, why not disband the entire government as is instead of giving polticians pay raises. Get rid of Congress, the President, and set up an international council of corporations who control a global military with CEO's making all the decisions. You beleive in corporatism, Lefty, not the power of the individual.

[Lefty]

Disband the govt. Well, we need govt to fight wars and make the white lines dn the middle of highways, but we don't need them to tell us we must limit our horizons and give to us other fools who limited our own horizons.

[ljb]

Disband the govt. Well, we need govt to fight wars and make the white lines dn the middle of highways, but we don't need them to tell us we must limit our horizons and give to us other fools who limited our own horizons.
And we don't need them to tell us what we can do in our own homes. And we don't need them to wiretap our private conversations. And we don't need them to tell us when to die and when to live. And we don't need them to limit our scientific capabilities. And I could go on.

[Lefty]

And we don't need them to tell us what we can do in our own homes. And we don't need them to wiretap our private conversations. And we don't need them to tell us when to die and when to live. And we don't need them to limit our scientific capabilities. And I could go on.
Didn't you just chastize someone for being offtopic?
But to answer: Nobody is wiretapping your private conversations unless you're talking overseas to the terrorists. Nobody is limiting scientific capabilities. How many times do you need to be reminded that GW is the ONLY pres to allocate a dime to stemcell research. It can be more adequately done by private labs. Nobody is tellin you when to die, but a judge did condemn an innocent woman to a horrible death; the Pres didn't. You could go on and I could answer your every concern; something you hesitate to do.

[GameTheory]

And we don't need them to tell us what we can do in our own homes. And we don't need them to wiretap our private conversations. And we don't need them to tell us when to die and when to live. And we don't need them to limit our scientific capabilities. And I could go on.But we do need them to set our minimum and maximum salaries, right?

[ljb]

But we do need them to set our minimum and maximum salaries, right?
NO!!!