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Secretariat
09-09-2006, 07:43 PM
Which factor plays the most important part when purchasing a handicapping software program? Obviously, winning is what they all should do, but given that and assuming the claims as true, which factor is the most important.

banacek
09-09-2006, 08:34 PM
As someone who plays weekend at 1 or maybe 2 tracks, the download costs are of concern. I'll pay $500 for a good program, but I won't throw another $129/month for data files when I might use 8 or 12. Cynthia, I think, used to have a $50 plan for those that don't download as much, but that is gone, I think. There's a market there, I think, but no one seems to want to tap it.

Dave Schwartz
09-09-2006, 10:26 PM
There's a market there, I think, but no one seems to want to tap it.

Boy, I sure wish I could (tap that market, that is).

The problem is that data providers typically come in two flavors: Those who pay commissions to software developers and those who don't. Those who do, are subscription-based.

However, we do have some new software under development that is gonna shake things up quite a bit when released. It is called The Basics of Winning.

If we don't *give away a thousand of them the first six months, I'll be astounded.

(* The catch will follow in a couple of months.)

Tom
09-09-2006, 10:55 PM
(* The catch will follow in a couple of months.)

That's when the two guys with no necks show up at your front door with "Greetings" from Dave! :lol:


BTW........Sounds interesting.

Ponyplayr
09-09-2006, 11:13 PM
As someone who plays weekend at 1 or maybe 2 tracks, the download costs are of concern. I'll pay $500 for a good program, but I won't throw another $129/month for data files when I might use 8 or 12. Cynthia, I think, used to have a $50 plan for those that don't download as much, but that is gone, I think. There's a market there, I think, but no one seems to want to tap it.
HDW still has the $50 a month for ten downloads. I do that during the slow months.

bigmack
09-09-2006, 11:21 PM
If we don't *give away a thousand of them the first six months, I'll be astounded.
In light of the misdirected software for the uninformed public such as Optionetics & Day Trading Systems, it's time for this game to be brought to the masses. Hell, it can't be any worse than the aforementioned offerings.

Palm Desert, a divine place to be 7 months of the year houses a Corp entitled Guthy Renker. I see an informercial. I see an 800#. I see people entering the game that never gave thought to HRacing that would be better served in this endeavor than in the market. With solid Customer Service - there are no bounds

banacek
09-09-2006, 11:44 PM
HDW still has the $50 a month for ten downloads. I do that during the slow months.

Thanks for the info. I see that now on the writeup for All-in-one. I had looked at HDW's page and it said:

"All products made by HDW are sold by monthly subscription only and include all tracks available each day. All prices are in US dollars."
But it looks like Cynthia has an alternate arrangement available.

banacek
09-09-2006, 11:46 PM
However, we do have some new software under development that is gonna shake things up quite a bit when released. It is called The Basics of Winning.

If we don't *give away a thousand of them the first six months, I'll be astounded.

(* The catch will follow in a couple of months.)

Sounds interesting. Is it related at all to your upcoming book you mentioned in another thread?

JustRalph
09-09-2006, 11:57 PM
I tell ya........ I don't mind paying anything for the software........but $129 a month for data.....stops me cold.

Right now I can play whenever I want. I play a few days a week. I can't find enough decent races to play now. Too many tracks open.......crappy races being written at places like Turfway etc. I spend about 25 maybe 30 bucks a month with brisnet for data. I know it isn't the best stuff out there, but when I go back to work........I might get to play 1 day a week.........and there is no way I am going to pay 129 a month to play one day a week.

I can't believe they get that much for it.........

betchatoo
09-10-2006, 12:46 AM
Several of those factors play in to my choice. I want software that will do a lot and won't take me forever to understand. But I gave up all-ways because $7-14 per card was just excesive.

Dave Schwartz
09-10-2006, 10:46 AM
Sounds interesting. Is it related at all to your upcoming book you mentioned in another thread?

Yes, they will go together.


Dave

garyoz
09-10-2006, 09:32 PM
It would be interesting to see the Bris data in terms of revenue per market segment: gold, silver, standard. They haven't moved off their pricing model for years, so the segmentation must work. They also have TSN to deal with the lower end of the market and monthly subscription with the ProCap subscribers at $70 per month. I also would be interested in seeing the mix between Past Performance revenue, formated data (software) files, and picks. I think that a lot of their revenue is generated with the AmericaTab/Brisbet/Winhorse link. Trackmaster must make most of its money off of its handicapping picks.

The Gold customer and HDW subscriber customers are probably alot alike and the market is probably pretty mature at this point. It would be interesting to know the churn rate. I'd bet that many of these customers are like me and cycle in and out during the year depending upon what's going on in my life.

If you are using software that uses modeling, its hard to get away from the monthly apporach. From my experience, I can't understand why some spending $70 per month for TSN wouldn't be willing to pay the $109 or $129 or $139 per month (depending on the application) for what I think is better and more comprehensive data form HDW (obviously IMHO). I also get some ALW files from Bris during a typical month--particularly when I'm don't have an HDW subscription working.

I remember when Bob Purdy introduced the latest version of Synergism VI, he charged something like $500 for the software and $109 from HDW for monthly data. He quickly changed to a free software and $139 monthly fee. I think the cost of software is an initial barrier to entry for new users and they are more willing to try free software for $139 per month for a few months. The start-up costs are lower.

Obviously, the economic model for software producers who use BRIS or TSN is challenging in that they won't share in the revenue from Bris, and therefore most make all their $'s from the program plus upgrades. Allways has been able to have it both ways--I think primarily due to their aggressive advertising and promotion, which I assume is co-op with Bris.

For what its worth, I didn't vote in the poll because it is more complicated for me than one issue. Plus I like trying new software just to see how they work. I have wasted too much money some bad programs--but I'm a software junkie.

banacek
09-10-2006, 09:49 PM
From my experience, I can't understand why some spending $70 per month for TSN wouldn't be willing to pay the $109 or $129 or $139 per month (depending on the application) for what I think is better and more comprehensive data form HDW (obviously IMHO).

But if I spend $129/mo for HTR, All-in-one, Horsestreet data, or ............ can I do anything else with it? Can I use it on my own homegrown software? Can I use it with other commercial software? Or am I stuck with data that works with just one software? Don't know, just wondering.

Zaf
09-10-2006, 10:14 PM
Banacek,

I use HTR and the data is fully exportable to Access / Excel, etc. So you can use the HTR software and/or use the data in your own homegrown software as well. The data will not work with other commercial software.

In addition complete comma delimited charts are also included, which can be kept in a database as well.


Z

ryesteve
09-10-2006, 10:21 PM
At this point for me, the cost of data is the main issue. I'm happy with what I'm using, so I'm not about to switch to software that requires another monthly subscription and the need to start building a database from Day 1. On the other hand, if there was an interesting piece of software with which I could use the several years' worth of data I've already accumulated, I could certainly be tempted to see if it might be any help to me.

eqitec
09-10-2006, 10:23 PM
I would have added "how much value does it add" as another important consideration. By this I mean how does the software help the user see things about a race that cannot be seen by the general public.

TRM
09-10-2006, 10:56 PM
For me, it is the monthly download charge. I may play a couple of times during the week and a few on the weekend. There is simply not enough time to justify the $129 monthly cost. Espeicially with a family and kids......time is limited for playing. I might change my tune if there were some "pay as you play" options......hint hint DS.

Dave Schwartz
09-10-2006, 11:07 PM
But if I spend $129/mo for HTR, All-in-one, Horsestreet data, or ............ can I do anything else with it? Can I use it on my own homegrown software? Can I use it with other commercial software? Or am I stuck with data that works with just one software? Don't know, just wondering.

The data from HSH is exportable but not in a "raw data" format. In other words, you will not be getting a full set of PPs but rather the "factor values" and rankings, etc.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

banacek
09-11-2006, 12:37 AM
The data from HSH is exportable but not in a "raw data" format. In other words, you will not be getting a full set of PPs but rather the "factor values" and rankings, etc.


So if I want to print out a BRIS or DRF type racing form, is that possible?

Thanks

Dave Schwartz
09-11-2006, 01:09 AM
No.

ratpack
09-11-2006, 07:53 PM
HDW still has the $50 a month for ten downloads. I do that during the slow months.


10 Downloads a months is nothing, I mean better have a good, up to date database already built up. Then you get to play a whopping 2.5 tracks a week.

You can't really expect to build up any kind of database with that $50 a month plan.

Ponyplayr
09-11-2006, 10:46 PM
10 Downloads a months is nothing, I mean better have a good, up to date database already built up. Then you get to play a whopping 2.5 tracks a week.

You can't really expect to build up any kind of database with that $50 a month plan.
Depends how you use it.
The tracks I play aren't running now, so why would I pay $100 for data?
My data base is current for GP..Haw..Tam..Fg.
I occasionally play Saratoga, so I download a 30 day model, then the race card. That leaves eight more downloads for the month. I do this every year, so my data base is current.
When the tracks I play are running I go with the unlimited plan and select all one year models and 30 day models and download . I'm good to go.

ratpack
09-12-2006, 02:10 PM
That is a good way to do it but when I use it I play far too many tracks waiting for those overlays

JustRalph
09-12-2006, 07:49 PM
from this informal survey, it appears that everybody would be buying Dave's software if the damn data wasn't so expensive..............it obviously has the modeling..........

Zaf
09-12-2006, 08:41 PM
On the other hand , for the Everyday player the data is relatively cheap. You get every race card every day. If you bought a print edition of the DRF on a daily basis , It would cost $180 for about 5 cards a day. Also with HTR, I get complete charts for every race run, and I can have them all comma delimited if I want to put them in a data base. For me, $119 a month is a very reasonable price.

For the weekend player or the guy who plays once or twice a week this is not a good option, and I agree its too expensive for that type of player. Its a shame they do not have some smaller plans for the player who only plays a few times a month. I think it would behoove them to give the infrequent player a option to have data for a few days a month at a reasonable price. It seems like they would attract many, many new customers. Its seems like the racing industry, racetracks, betting services, data providers etc. are the earmarks for bad business models. Do everything you can to cache things from the public, from video feeds to charts to data. I think I am going to start a new business next week and I will do everything I can to prevent the public from accessing or knowing about me :rolleyes:

Z

Tom
09-12-2006, 09:17 PM
I dunno, Zaf.
Say you play Sat/Sunday, two tracks each day.
That's about 16 tracs a month - less than $10 per track for extremely valuable and restricted data. Plus, you get charts for every track thrown in, and a vast amount of trainer/jockey (and other) data to use in a db.

Actually, it is $7.43 per card. Allways cheap files are what, $7.50 one track, one day?

Zaf
09-12-2006, 09:30 PM
Never thought of it that way Tom. And personally I rather use HDW data over Bris Data.

Z

andicap
09-18-2006, 12:21 PM
I'll build on Zaf's replay with respect to what you can do with HTR's output.

Im not database literate so I do all my data wrestling in spreadsheets.

I can build up to date track profiles on the fly. I will divide the data by date so I can quickly look up how a track played on say, Aug. 20th. Or I can sort by distance/surface so I can see how Belmont has been playing over the past week at 8f on the turf.
With HTR you can download info from the past month or past year for all tracks so that's plenty of information. You can also get insight into how the pace might have affected a particular race because the file offers all sorts of fractional times as well as FPS figures for the pace of the race.

Here's a quick example from a file i just accessed from mid-June going back a month. I can see for 7f/fast track in the past month the track was playing pretty fair: Out of 15 races, six were won by early horses (less than 1 length from lead at 1st call) and six by pressers (within 3 lengths). But on May 17th, 4th race, a horse closed from 10 lengths to win. At a glance I can see they ran the 1st call in 22.54, the second fastest of the month at the distance.
No wonder the front-runners collapsed! And the %E for the pace call was 53.53, the highest of the month. I would have l downgraded the closers and upgraded the early horses from that race.

HTR also has a bunch of comma delimited export templates you can use to build a trainer file. With a spreadsheet I can sort through any of the categories in the template (the htr2.com website has a list of what's in each template. Many have too many categories to play with outside of an Access-stype DB, but there are a couple that are manageable with Excel.)
I can track how well Trainer Smith is doing with layoffs at Belmont on the turf for example.

If you are cozy with macros it's especially a snap although still relatively easy to use if you're not.